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HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES }F _NINETY- FIFTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION _ VOLUME IX a STAFF AND CONSULTANT’S REPORTS ORGANIZED CRIME MARCH 1979 Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Assassinations "1998 MAY @ GOVDOC | KF27 | +5 |-A8 2a i085 OES NOT AUTHOR Investigztio n of the As IEE PPRM sass'n of ec Rimes b Vol. 9 ie, _,— DATE DUE va > fos INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY j My { 5 an | orky eres Mate al Amel irall Bee. ‘ _ f % +i appeneyTO HEARINGS BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES NINETY-FIFTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION VOLUME IX STAFF AND CONSULTANT’S REPORTS ON ORGANIZED CRIME MARCH 1979 Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Assassinations as U.8. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 44-105 O WASHINGTON : 1979 For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C. 20402 Stock No. 052—070—049 80—4 SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS LOUIS STOKES, Ohio, Chairman RICHARDSON PREYER, North Carolina SAMUEL L. DEVINE, Ohio WALTER BE. FAUNTROY, STEWART B. McKINNEY, Connecticut District of Columbia CHARLES THONH, Nebraska YVONNE BRATHWAITE BURKH, HAROLD S. SAWYER, Michigan California CHRISTOPHER J. DODD, Connecticut HAROLD E. FORD, Tennessee FLOYD J. FITHIAN, Indiana ROBERT W. EDGAR, Pennsylvania Subcommittee on the Subcommittee on the Assassination of Assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. John F. Kennedy WALTER E. FAUNTROY, Chairman RICHARDSON PREYER, Chairman HAROLD BE. FORD YVONNE BRATHWAITE BURKE FLOYD J. FITHIAN CHRISTOPHER J. DODD ROBERT W. EDGAR CHARLES THONB STEWART B. McKINNEY HAROLD S. SAWYER LOUIS STOKES, ex officio LOUIS STOKES, ex officio SAMUEL L. DEVINE, ex officio SAMUEL L. DEVINE, ex officio STarr G. ROBERT BLAKEY, Chief Counsel and Staff Director GaRY CORNWELL, Deputy Chief Counsel (II) I. FOREWORD (1)*_ Karly in its investigation, as soon as it was realized that a plot by elements of organized crime in the United States to assassinate President John F. Kennedy warranted serious consideration, the committee decided to assemble the most reliable information available on the subject. The focus was to be primarily on the history of or- ganized crime;* the impact of the Kennedy administration’s cam- paign against it in the United States; possible links of Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby with underworld figures; and the development of new evidence or leads. From this information, the committee hoped to discover if the national syndicate of organized crime, or any of its leaders or members, had the motive, means and opportunity to assassi- nate the President, and if there was any evidence of their participation in the events in Dallas on November 22, 1963. (2) At the early stages of its work, the committee reviewed the major groups and major allegations related to the assassination to identify the most likely participants if a conspiracy was involved. A major reason for suspecting conspiracy was Oswald’s murder by Jack Ruby. Organized crime—specifically the national syndicate known as La Cosa Nostra or the Mafia—was a logical choice for study. A number of leads to organized crime existed, mostly through Ruby: —Ruby had moved from Chicago to Dallas in 1946, at a time when the Mafia was said to be moving into that city. It has been alleged that Ruby was a front man. —Ruby was friendly with various alleged underworld figures, such as Lewis McWillie, a known associate of Santos Trafficante, who was a leading Mafia figure in Tampa, Fla. —Ruby had made several unexplained phone calls to underworld figures in the months preceding the assassination. (3) The Warren Commission concluded that Ruby had shot Oswald or personal reasons, had not known Oswald previously, had made his calls to underworld figures because of labor problems with an entertainment union, had only visited McWillie once in Cuba—and that for pleasure—and was friendly with organized crime figures as a result of his gregariousness and the nature of his nightclub business. In summary, “the evidence [the Commission believed did] not estab- lish a significant link between Ruby and organized crime.” ? (4) Both the Warren Commission and the FBI, its principal in- vestigative force, have been criticized for their failure to pursue the * Arabic numerals in parentheses at the beginning of paragraphs indicate the paragraph number for purposes of citation and referencing; italic numerals in parentheses in the middle or at the end of sentences indicate references which can be found at the end of each report or section. *The concept of organized crime can mean many things. See generally G. Blakey, R. Goldstock and C. Rogovin, Racket Bureaus: Investigation and Prosecution of Organized Crime, Appendix A, “Uses of the Phrase ‘Organized Crime’,” pp. 107-117 (NILE, 1978). * Warren Commission Report, p. 801. (IIT) IV organized crime leads more thoroughly. Suspicions about possible organized crime involvement in the assassination were also rein- forced by new leads that emerged in recent years and by new allega- tions. They included: —In 1975, the Senate committee revealed that the CIA had re- cruited the Mafia to assassinate Castro ; —Organized crime was said to have turned its back on the CIA and agreed to assist Castro in assassinating the President in re- venge for the Bay of Pigs; —Very little evidence was available on the activities of two key organized crime leaders who remained open questions—Santos Trafficante of Florida and Carlos Marcello of New Orleans; and —Possible links between Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, and David Ferrie, an operative of Carlos Marcello, a leading Mafia figure in New Orleans, La., had been alleged. (5) It was in this context, therefore, that the committee decided to address several issues involving organized crime. They included not just possible ties of organized crime to Oswald and Ruby, but involvement of the Mafia with other anti-Kennedy forces, as well as its potential for independent action. The key issues were: —Did the national syndicate of organized crime as a group, or individuals within it, have the motive to assassinate President Kennedy? Specifically, was the Mafia being seriously hurt by the Kennedys’ campaign against it? —Was there any evidence, or could any be developed, of involvement in the assassination by the national syndicate of organized crime as a group or by individuals within it? Specifically, was there any evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald or Jack Ruby were asso- ciated with organized crime figures in any way? Were there ties between the Mafia and any other potential assassins, group or individual ? —Did the method of assassination itself suggest organized crime involvement ? —Were there reasons why organized crime would not have under- taken to assassinate the President? —Could more information be developed on Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante ? (6) The committee assumed from the outset that organized crime may well have had the means and opportunity to assassinate President Kennedy. The success of its criminal operations, the difficulty of achieving convictions, the tradition of violence—much of it undetected and unsolved—and the existence of a highly disciplined, effective unit of organized crime in major cities in the United States led the committee to this conclusion. Thus, its investigation focused primar- ily on the questions of motive and evidence of possible involvement. (7) The committee determined that, in pursuing its investigation of organized crime involvement, the following materials, as they re- lated to organized crime as a whole and to specific key individuals, would have to be reviewed : —law enforcement agency files at Federal, State and local levels; aa periodicals, committee reports, and other written materials; an —reports on electronic surveillance of organized crime figures. In addition, the committee planned to interview, depose or otherwise Vv obtain testimony from key members of the Mafia and their associates, as well as from staff of the Warren Commission and the FBI, the CIA and other agencies involved in the original investigation. Par- ticular attention would be paid to ties between Ruby and organized crime and Oswald and organized crime. (8) To assist with its investigation, the committee decided to retain a leading expert on organized crime. Ralph Salerno’s involvement with the investigation of organized crime dates back to 1946, when he joined the New York City Police Department. For most of his 20 years with the department, he worked on organized crime cases. When he retired in 1966, he was supervisor of detectives in the Central In- vestigation Bureau, the organized crime investigative unit of the department. Since his retirement, Salerno has served as consultant to many groups, including the Organized Crime Task Force of the President’s Commission on Law Enforcement and the Administration of Justice, the President’s Commission on Violence, and the National Advisory Commission on Criminal Justice Standards and Goals. In 1974-75, he served as chief rackets investigator for the New York (Queens) County, New York District Attorney’s office. He has also n active in training law enforcement officers at all levels of govern- ment throughout the United States and in Canada. Salerno is the author of numerous books and articles on organized crime, and he has provided expert testimony before numerous legislative bodies. (9) This volume contains a number of staff summaries of informa- tion obtained in the course of the committee’s organized crime in- vestigation that were prepared for internal use. As such, it must be emphasized, they are not polished drafts. Because the committee be- heved that the question of possible organized crime involvement was important, it was decided that these raw working files should be published. (10) This volume consists of the following materials: —An edited version of the consultant’s report; —A_review and summary of information available on Carlos Mar- cello, with a particular focus on his attitude toward the Kennedy administration ; —A review of Oswald’s early life in New Orleans and _possible contact with persons associated in some way with organized crime in that city; and —An analysis of various links of Jack Ruby to organized crime. Additional material on organized crime as it relates to other areas the committee investigated can be found in the following reports: —*The Evolution and Implications of the CIA-Sponsored Assassi- nation Conspiracies Against Fidel Castro,” Appendix to the Hear- ings before the Select Committee on Assassinations, Volume *.& —*"The Warren Commission,” Appendix to the Hearings before the Select Committee on Assassinations, Volume XI. eeEt tuay 2 Bios 7 Gist. aia an basurag tabs OF how danedia vith AN tia f a) Ove. 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Pilly } ? it - Sif? in Me ed 1 4 at A im s pee um i, area > e n* 7! g* > , & Fg ni wud y , | si CPt heels afta. OPO Ma at Lo) BFP ix eet |Sysicl ; +4Mw Prowl he oto Larariowe Mt: tanie enforudnent agency Ate at Podaral, State, baAy orkthy wisn By onired tg reps: %, and thor wrt te \ ond *)) a ie itl Pye uh Oe i 7 a ; saae sen’ od ne: * fs iw Soe ay) TAGer oon pe tent J CONTENTS Page aa pa DsChee BA et oD pa Pe ES ae oDOR a es III II. The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy and Organized Crime, Report of Ralph Salerno, Consultant to Select Committee on CEE Ws Fre a OO ES ole Pa ad ral ee AAS Rh PE a eee NE ee ‘3 ee ETE ye Ea ici lle lieing GA Es eASPN As Sarah dl $A Ci eal id a bs 61 IV. Oswald’s Early Life: New Orleans and Organized Crime____________ 93 V. Possible Associations Between Jack Ruby and Organized Crime____-_~- 125 (VIT) : : ‘ A i (2 1G : = . } i . e ta 7 : at : . : . ° ay as ey Ae ; a -S & a inn beri, _ i hy oa | aia aac agiegeine empt iy nee ‘ere | A 1 SARTRE at eae ore a : ibe. 1 idanaalno wot wo isd he ’ a Sot ~ ae || he oa y ME ¢ _ pihet. i ; wy we Bory ct negra a aba i ek eT : a | ay ell Wek i ta p - *y af a Sree+4 Ny / acon @ ite ive reey ee ae, a heei oa = 7 ; bith ag,men, | rk ee nere Bike m “es Ye re II. THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KEN- NEDY AND ORGANIZED CRIME, REPORT OF RALPH SALERNO, CONSULTANT TO THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS* CONTENTS Paragraph Demme vonsenl Joc.3. o052 eo cee 2 ae. Atel oe 6 Seb Peres toe oy ad cee (11) SPIE nt Pai eS ee eee Set re ene a Sa ae ne (12) Summary and excerpts of findings and conclusions by the consultant___________-_--_ (14) ieetustory, of Organized(Crime insthe United, States22. 2.82.) a eee (14) emer GniDiLlOl LNG Ule, DOUSt. oe eke ao ee ee rs er (22) Peo valentine's’ Day Massacre... i8o So Se See eee eae (23) ear most successtil: enterprise eg ne bel een eo oe nw nn secant (28) a epelechin, N.Y ues ee tes, Sa ee Oe ne eee ee eee (31) He LE Od Cha response sae sree re) Pee ee es Oe OE ae dk (44) feestatesand, local efforts: #2 Be os ee (52) Dime COSA WOStra’’’“ EBIFilé'92-605042 ee eh ee See ee ee (53) A. La Cosa Nostra and the Kennedy administration-_____-_--__-------- (54) Dee ILeLLIPENCe .ODCra LIONS <= cams ae oe le ao eee ee ae ee {333 CFA sticressful (operation 42 Seti SOL eto 2h eis sosrts es 63) Doren bh eM eV alachi 23 ee ee ee wee ees (71) or Ok TeDUrL OR tie COolinissi0l. e-em eee (74) Braue CGed ENostraLLeC orn ee bias. 5 STIs (82) OT TET gallett te Vi ee ee Se a veer wee T (84) Pe Le mtpace or the KRennegy Cal paien-~ seen eee ene ee (85) (hy), rOs* political “influencels 4425 -205 54 2) Pe oe ee (87) POR Op ln LT aetatiied Sited cinta “hepa Repeineser lp.peleie aeMER ye (101) I. La Cosa Nostra and intelligence-gathering.___________-__-____----- (111) weet oon. peeling, the. pressure. : v.32 tee ee a ee gee ee or (118) K. Attitude toward the Kennedys: Before and after___-_____________-__ (103) fern veivein ol/ithe evidencesols: th sot cose Bind ee ee ie (17 III. Organized Crime Murders: Any Precedents?____________-___________-__-_- (179) AR ottitude:towara- murder. fiit Fie See ia a fee (181) ime eweviCctims ate the EO ere, fuse Ae Tee a fe ee 8h es | tae ie (184) C. Characteristics of organized crime murders_________-______________ (186) The! -euthorizer_o or oie Se Saree ie MS pee ee reer (187) ta) 2) Ne expediters See ta tive .f preps yee UVin Ae beer (189) Coy weaitmen? cot sles: Dei aens Ce eet ag eee Pea ese (191) (4) wleroers weapon 414. 24 OU et te Le abo ert} lie sralee Mel we Nu LOGs Lt Cole eee cree eee ee eee ee ee (195 OR verre *ermalics Cay a ee eo es Se eee (196 (HTH, finger £r= : Apes! Pye ot eo a eee, 5 bods bee. oe Bans (198 fal Tamited /conenirgey? Vol 2h) se tl ed Dee eet 2 ee (199) (Soe MeLNOG FeTINelO ns. Eee A oid SN A eee ea, aN (200) et GT OI ae A glic)) eagles AAA 4wea Cede aiclgnah Diighes, acapinnin kaneis (201) Da rurepwexceptiona- (ce ae Lerner Tey yertovet sy a terk we ee (202) Bbistry Lor: Ripgeh it. 33. 2 tie Fs here afore oR es ee ote TA (203) f2y-Joseph 2Corombeit2 8S Shs ee ke SEE oe ENE See (225) toro) randie_ = ht Vs Ses 8 Veit . Bab & ft etic SA (232) PSUTAT I 8 Va en re ee ee (246) IV. Conclusion : Likelihood of Involvement by Organized Crime___-______________ (248) mone National Commission 12s 2a 1. ts we ikier lie eee Power or yrs Faye (251) ( Daring amMbine’ sels 2 eet hE eee FF SE has BESS BN) Seek Ee (252) (2) "Fhomas “Tucchesés 524 05 Sects ee ees es Ss hs ge es (256) fatay ito SsGenovese: 2ty oe ee ee eet as ok te ee (257) (4) Giuseppe Profaci and Giuseppe Magllocco__._._._.___.______-- (263) (Oo). JOpernn -Ronan. List 1) Ae ls oe ee ee ee (266) TO yrmams GIANCARA 2 ae A Ok UAE 2 as aa SO TS (270) (FitaAnonlo eBruto. lec!) ae cree TS 8 etree (273) Dp PASTORAL TCR Bick hie Oe Ebi cele het Te i aeetlia Rigi GP tabi NP (276) (9) Raymond Patriarca.....siianul eee FP e ees (279) am Other major leaders and problems._° 0)! oe mes dc ne ee (281) Un any MIO FOF! Find BOD sielig "FSR RS EMT bid bab be NS ON OM Red | (286) PANODET aU ERLION Sse ee ker een ee (288) *Materials submitted for this report were compiled by HSCA staff members G. Robert Blakey, Gary T. Cornwell, and Whitney Watriss. (1) 2 Issurs ADDRESSED zed crime 11) The committee charged its consultant on organi with the following tasks: States, _To review the history of organized crime in the United indicat ions detailing its nature and organiz ation, analyz ing it for mem- as to whether its national syndicate as a group or any of its o bers had the motive to assassinate President Kennedy. Salern was also to determ ine if there had been any preced ent for a crime of this nature and if the method of carrying out the assassination had any parallels. or- _To review the impact of the Department of Justice war neon if it ganized crime under the Kenned y adminis tration to determi could have provided a motive for assassinating the President. —To identify reasons why the national syndicate of organized crime, out as a group or as individuals, might not have wanted to carry this type of act. MatertAts REVIEWED (12) The primary source of information relating both to the impact e of of the Justice Department’s efforts and to the nature and structur nts organized crime and its operati ons was the reports based on informa FBI. and electronic surveillance of La Cosa Nostra in the files of the the While reports of this charact er were princip ally availabl e from FBI, they were also obtained from certain State and local law enforce- ment agencies, most notably the New York City Police Department. The committee’s investigation marked the first time that these ma- terials had been reviewed in connection with the Kennedy assassination. The consultant also had access to all interviews, depositions and testi- mony obtained by the committee. In summary, the consultant, with the assistance of the committee, reviewed: —More than 36 volumes of the FBI’s La Cosa Nostra (Mafia) file (4492-6054), covering the period January 1, 1963, to June 30, 1964, some 11 months prior to and 8 months following the assassi- nation; —Crime Condition Reports* of the FBI relating to Chicago, Dallas, New Orleans, Tampa, and Miami, for the same time period; __FBI files on a number of individual members of organized crimi- nal organizations whose names arose in the course of other com- mittee work; —More than 300 volumes of electronic surveillance logs and sum- maries, part of the criminal intelligence program in effect at that time, again for the same time period ; Electronic surveillance summaries and intelligence bulletins of © the New York City Police Department, for the same period; and —Depositions of FBI personnel, local police and other persons with potentially useful knowledge. (13) The sensitive nature of the materials reviewed by the consultant * Crime Condition Reports are assembled by FBI field offices; they provide an overview of pertinent conditions in those jurisdictions. The material is not limited to criminal matters in which the Bureau has a direct enforcement mandate. 3 presented a series of problems for the committee. Most of them had been obtained in a fashion that was arguably inconsistent with the fourth amendment.* The consultant’s review was, therefore, isolated from the rest of the committee’s investigation to avoid any taint to the evidence the committee obtained independently. In addi- tion, the consultant had access to raw intelligence files that contained unevaluated informants’ reports and electronic surveillance overhears from which informant identities were excised. The committee was acutely conscious that not everything that an informant reports or that is overheard on a bug is reliable. The materials reviewed by the consultant, moreover, contained a most disquieting record of murder, extortion, robbery, theft, bribery and corruption. They also contained allegations of gross personal immorality involving a variety of public figures. Nothing in the committee’s mandate justified the publication cf these data in the form in which they were reviewed by the con- sultant or in which they were made available to the committee for its analysis. This consultant’s report, therefore, is unique among those recelved by the committee, and in contrast to the others, it will not, as such, be published as it was originally submitted. Instead, it is here excerpted and summarized, so that its essential information can be understood as it bears on the assassination of President Kennedy. SuMMARY AND EXcEerRPTs OF FINDINGS AND CONCLUSIONS BY THE CoNSULTANT I. HISTORY OF ORGANIZED CRIME IN THE UNITED STATES (14) Since the late 19th century, groups of organized criminals in which most members are of Italian background, in which positions and structures are described with Italian words, and where the lan- guage of use is Italian, have been among the most active and powerful in this country. While these groups have been called by various names—the Black Hand, the Mafia, the Organization, the mob, or- ganized crime—collectively they are now most properly called La Cosa Nostra.** (15) Their origins can be traced back to southern Italy, where in certain areas, particularly Sicily, Calabria, and Naples, secret crimi- nal societies had emerged centuries ago. In Sicily, such groups were known as the Mafia; in Calabria, the Honored Society ;and in Naples, the Camora. While distinct from each other, the groups were similar in makeup, rules, and tactics. (16) Members of these groups were among the many immigrants to the United States, and they continued their associations in their new homeland. Initially, they victimized their countrymen, and they were largely ignored by law enforcement agencies and the public. Occasion- *The history of the Department of Justice’s position on the lawfulness of the use of electronic surveillance is summarized in “Hearing Before the National Commission for the Review of Federal and State Laws Relating to Wiretapping and Electronic Surveillance,” vol. 1, pp. 1637-1646 (1976). _ **Recently, people of Italian background have expressed concern that they are _ Unfairly assumed to be part of these groups. Because the groups emphasize their Italian background to such an extent, it is impossible to discuss them without po the term “Italian.” This should not be construed to mean that all persons Of Italian origin are involved with organized crime. a 4 ally, there were references to a criminal society called the Black Hand or the Mafia. This latter term was, at that time, incorrect except with respect to those criminals from Sicily. There was little unity among the groups; most immigrants first thought of themselves as Sicilians, Neapolitans, Piedmontese, or other subnationalities, reflective of Italy’s short history as a unified nation. (17) In general, these groups concentrated on extortion, bootlegging, protection rackets, and a category of crimes called by some victimless— gambling, prostitution, narcotics, and loansharking.* These latter are crimes for which there is a large public demand and allegedly no victim, since participation is “voluntary.” Traditionally, law enforce- ment agencies have overlooked many of these activities since there was little public support for prosecution. In time, particularly after the 1930’s, other offenses were added to organized crime’s list of activi- ties—white-collar crimes, labor racketeering, hijacking, political cor- ruption, and the takeover of legitimate businesses. Many members also went into professions, principally law and business. (18) The structure of the groups was much as it had been in Italy— close-knit, highly disciplined, with a sophisticated hierarchical struc- ture that protected those at the top. Members had to be approved and initiated. Loyalty was reinforced by the promise of retribution, usually brutal, for any transgressions against the “family,” as the group was called. Members were sworn to secrecy in all matters. (19) With respect to criminal activities themselves, each group usually had a number of legal fronts behind which illegal activities were carried out. Crimes were always executed by lower level members or “contractors,” thus protecting the man at the top. In return for these services and strict silence, if caught, the family guaranteed legal serv- ices and support for the criminal’s family. (20) Further to insure its success, these organized crime groups en- gaged in systematic attempts to corrupt and bribe law enforcement officers, members of the judicial system, and political leaders. Most typically, this took the form of bribes, favors, campaign contributions, and help in getting out the vote. Where the machinery of a political party could be controlled, organized crime ran its own candidates at all levels—local to Federal. (21) Violence was common. In organized criminal activity, violence and the fear of violence have always been critical and have been used in several ways: —To maintain internal discipline and loyalty to the leadership; —To limit the gathering of evidence by law enforcement officers by intimidating informers, witnesses, and victims; —To influence the outcome of criminal justice matters by intimidat- ing the police, prosecutors, court officers, jurors, et cetera ; —To guarantee the success of illegal operations such as gambling (debtors must pay), loansharking (“Your body is the collateral”), extortion, labor racketeering, et cetera. ; Because violence was kept, for the most part, within organized crime’s sphere of interest, traditionally law enforcement officers largely ignored it. *Lending money at excessively high rates of interest and for very short terms. A. Prohibition: The big boost (22) It was not until Prohibition that the Italian organized crime groups really came into the public’s eye. The Prohibition era was readymade for organizations like the Italian criminal societies and provided them with a big boost. Bootlegging became an enormous industry. It was a fascinating complex, involving domestic manufac- ture (running the gamut from home stills and bathtub gin to sophisti- cated full-size clandestine breweries) ; a complicated, illicit distribution system; and large-scale ramrunning—champagne and brandies from France, Scotch from the British Isles, whisky from Canada, and native brews from the Caribbean. Such an industry required large numbers of people willing to break the law, a stable and specialized labor force, a tightly disciplined organization, and strong leadership. It was logical for established groups of organized criminals to step in to meet the need, and foremost among these were the Italian criminal societies. They expanded to the extent that they entered into associations with people of other ethnic backgrounds, but the core unit was still Italian. One famous criminal combination that developed in Chicago in that period included Al Capone, Jackie Guzik, and Murray Humphreys— an Italian, a Jew, and a Welshman. In New York, Owney Madden, Meyer Lansky, Ben Siegel, Frank Costello, and Charles Luciano— Irish, Jewish, and Italian gangsters—teamed up. The Italian groups, however, came to dominate the bootleg industry, amassing tremendous wealth and gaining invaluable experience in business that was put to good use after Prohibition ended. B. St. Valentine’s Day Massacre (23) In fact, competition was intense, constant, and brutal among the groups that emerged at this time. Gang wars, killings and kidnapings of rivals were common; force was the first and last means to an end. If alcohol was the liquid which brought forth a torrent of dollars, violence often decided into whose hands those dollars would flow. (24) The scope of the violence may be illustrated by the infamous St. Valentine’s Day Massacre of February 14, 1929, in which seven persons were shot in a Chicago garage. Throughout the country, the public was outraged, even though the event had occurred in only one city. This outery was followed by demands for action that threatened criminal profits everywhere. (25) Almost immediately, a series of high-level criminal meetings took place. Organized crime figures came from all over. The self- destructiveness of the fighting had been recognized, as had the assist- ance it was providing to law enforcement. These meetings constituted the first clear effort to organize the Italian criminal groups in the United States and establish rules for peaceful coexistence. The formal structure of organized crime in the United States as it exists today is said to date from these meetings. At the time, however, very little was known outside of organized crime about what was decided and what the structure would be. (26) The record of cooperation among the various criminal groups following these meetings is well-documented. As has been found in Fed- eral narcotics prosecutions, defendants hail from various parts of the country and even abroad. Indeed, relative peace has persisted even in “open cities”* such as Miami, Las Vegas and Havana, where orga- *An “open city” is a city in which any group can operate without having to obtain the permission of another group. 6 nized crime figures from many parts of the United States and of varied backgrounds have been able to reap their profits side-by-side. The ac- tivities of organized crime are those that demand close cooperation, discipline and stable conditions; the greatest sign of successful cooper- ation is the wealth amassed and the difficulty of achieving successful prosecutions. (27) Cooperation was not achieved without some opposition, specifi- cally from some of the older Italian criminal leaders, deeply rooted in Old World beliefs and attitudes. Al Capone’s long-running war in Chicago with the Sicilian Aiello and Gemma brothers was largely the result of their antipathy to his Neapolitan origin. The Castellamarese War was based, in part, on Sicilian feuds, which had begun long before in the old country. There is even an American version of the myth of the Sicilian Vespers.* The “Old Moustaches,” the name for Old World Italian criminal leaders then heading organizations in the United States, were said to have been murdered almost simultaneously in many parts of the country over a 48-hour period. The dates are usu- ally ae as September 10-12, 1931, the number murdered between 40 and 60. C. A most successful enterprise (28) Up to the 1960’s the Italian groups of organized crime were in an enviable position. They had an organization that few believed existed and about which little was known. Its leaders—and hence the organization itself—were protected by low-level members who actu- ally performed the criminal acts, many of which Federal and other agencies considered to be beyond their purview or legislative mandate. At best, organized crime was assigned a low priority at State and local levels of enforcement, and even this was easily nullified by corruption and politics. At the Federal level, even where there was concern, effec- tive action was hampered by inadequate enabling legislation. (29) Further, organized crime concentrated on victimless crimes, which involved activities which the public demanded. There was little incentive for law enforcement officers to uphold the laws. Many citizens argues that scarce resources should not be wasted on investi- gations and prosecutions of such crimes, ignoring the wider implica- tions of these activities. (30) The only major national investigation to be conducted during the period from the end of prohibition until the late 1950’s was that of the Senate Select Committee to Investigate Organized Crime in In- terstate Commerce, chaired by Senator Estes Kefauver. The commit- tee held hearings in major cities across the country. It built up a sub- stantial body of knowledge that indicated that there was a national and highly successful syndicate known as the Mafia, involved in a wide range of criminal activities throughout the United States and abroad. Violence was key to its success, as was corruption, and it was com- pletely ruthless. As a result of the committee’s findings, Congress passed some gambling legislation, similar investigations were precip1- tated at the State and local levels, and in 1954, the Federal Government *The Sicilian Vespers is the name given to an uprising against Charles I and the French occupation army in Sicily in 1282. The signal for the uprising is said to have been the church bells signaling the evening prayers called Vespers. 7 took further action by setting up the Organized Crime and Racket- eering Section in the Department of Justice. Its main function was to coordinate the effort against organized crime, but it found little coop- eration from other agencies. D. Apalachin, N.Y. (31) It was in 1957 that organized crime once again came into na- tional attention. On November 14, a significant meeting took place out- side the village of Apalachin, N.Y. The aftermath was perhaps not what the participants had anticipated, for not only was the cloak of secrecy partially pulled aside, but the event ultimately led to the great- est campaign to date against organized crime. (32) On that diay, SEF Edgar Crosswell of the New York State Police noted that a large number of people were converging on the estate of Joseph Barbera, Sr., many from far away. Crosswell had long been interested in Barbera, at the time the distributor for a major soda bottling company. Barbera had come from northern Pennsy]- vania, where he had a long police record that included two arrests for homicide (he was not convicted of either). (33) Because the meeting was on private property, no direct police action could be taken. Crosswell himself watched the entrance from nearby. A tradesman from the village, while making a delivery, noticed Crosswell and alerted those at the gathering. (34) Many of Barbera’s guests elected to Here tt Some did so by car and were detained, once on public roads, for the purpose of identifi- cation. Others who fled onto adjoining posted acreage were picked up for possible trespass. Most of those who remained on Barbera’s estate could not be identified. (35) In all, 63 people were detained and identified. Local hotel rec- ords, auto rental contracts and one report of a motor vehicle accident provided investigators with the names of still others. The evidence showed that they had come from New England, New York, New Jer- sey, Pennsylvania, Florida, Missouri, Texas, Colorado, Ohio, Illinois, and northern and southern California. (See fig. 1.)* They included many of the leading organized crime figures, such as Santos Trafii- cante, Vito Genovese, Carmine Galante, John Ormento and Sam Gian- cana. Most. were “known to the police” in their home jurisdictions, 1.e., they had criminal records and were suspected of complicity in orga- nized criminal groups. Many had legitimate professions as well. One attendee was a practicing attorney in the State of California, another was a prominent businessman in Buffalo, N.Y., and a member of the city council. With the exception of one of Barbera’s employees, all those identified were of Italian origin. (386) The evidence supported a conclusion that the gathering was to have been a national meeting of Italian criminals and their associates. This conclusion was corroborated and expanded by later intelligence gathered from electronic surveillance and informants that also pro- vided some idea of the purpose and agenda of the meeting and gave an indication of the scope of organized crime’s activities. The agenda contained a variety of items. First, and the most pressing item, was to *Figure 1 was introduced into the record as JFK F-547a in public hearings. 8 Apalachin Meeting, November 14, 1957 Zz ( Boston aaa | uttalo troit °" ~~ New York Lotion pics ee ae erantone | fAveck ‘ee hi a Chicago \ctevetand << @Philadelphia 7 ee eee as ee ae ye \ Mit wr etisa ee SN San Franc; Kansas Citys ree sat JGse sco Puebloe | 53.5 \St. Louis, hl piste eee \e is teen . = i = —j f= ae:=: ‘e pal — | \ } taf * clos 4 Nge les |we 2; | “tr 7\ Gad ¥ ‘+ aa | ( | Spe eae! Dalles (7 wilt ge Tamp FIGURE 1 deal with several incidents of violence in New York City over the previous 6 months. These had resulted in changes in leadership. More important, however, they represented a breakdown in internal disci- pline. There were three key incidents. On May 2, 1957, a bullet had creased the head of Frank Costello, the leader of one of six Italian criminal organizations in New York City. While unsuccessful, the assassination attempt did bring about his early retirement.* Then, in July 1957, Frank Scalise, second-in-command of another New York City family, was assassinated at a fruit and vegetable stand he fre- quented. Next to be killed was Albert Anastasia, leader of the group to which Scalise had belonged. Anastasia was assassinated in October 1957 in a barbershop chair at a hotel in midtown Manhattan. (37) Second was the need to prune the membership rolls and estab- lish the need for greater care in the selection of new members. This need was the result of a complaint that Anastasia had been negligent and avaricious in selecting new candidates for his criminal group. He had been accused of “selling” memberships to the highest bidders, one of the reasons for his assassination. (88) Third, in 1956, the U.S. Congress had enacted the Narcotics Control Act, effective July 1, 1957. In part, it was designed to facili- tate the arrest and conviction of high-level heroin importers. Many *Vincent Gigante was indicted and tried for this shooting, but when an eye- witness faltered in what had been a positive identification, the prosecution collapsed, and he was found not guilty. 9 criminals expected the statute to be a problem, and they wanted to discuss their future involvement in narcotics.1 (39) In fact, in the years that followed the Italian criminal orga- nizations were to yield their dominant positions in narcotics traffick- ing. The older leadership of La Cosa Nostra in particular withdrew from this type of activity, though younger men continued it. (40) Fourth were labor union matters. Many of those attending were involved in legitimate businesses. The most common in the northeast, especially in New York and Pennsylvania, was garment manufactur- ing. Their profits were being threatened by a nonunion enclave of manufacturing shops that had sprung up in the anthracite coal mining region of northeastern Pennsylvania, when mining declined. The wage paid the nonunion shop employees was sufficiently low to cover the costs of transportation of goods from and to the New York market and still allow considerable profit. (41) As the Pennsylvania business grew, organized crime moved to revive the defunct coal mining union locals. The purpose was also to prevent organization by the International Ladies Garment Workers Union (ILGWU). The “company unions” negotiated “sweetheart” ? contracts hardly to the benefit of employees. (42) At the time of the Apalachin meeting, however, there was com- petition. An ILGWU organizer named Min Lurye had been vigorously attempting to sign up the workers. Her brother, who had been an - organizer in New York City, had been murdered at the direction of Albert Anastasia. | (48) It is quite likely that the threat of the ILGWU to the Penn- sylvania operations would have been a topic discussion by those whose businesses would be adversely affected. This likelihood was supported by a conversation of John Masiello * in 1963: —Toney Vanella * has been in the garment area for 40 years. He used to be Joe Riccobono’s partner. Joe Riccobono had the garment area when Vincent Mangano was the Family leader. [Carlo Gambino was the leader in 1963.| —Joe Amarusso (Joe Strawberries) and Joe Riccobono were with [Louis] Lepke. —About 10 years ago, Abe Chait (becausehe had Tommy Lucchese behind him) made a deal with David Dubinsky. We [the Mob] will produce [for organizing] all the non- union shops, but we want so many Teena shops for ourselves. * This concern proved prophetic. Of those attending the meeting, Vito Genoyese was later sentenced to 15 years in federal prison for violating the statute; Rares Galente similarly received a 15-year sentence; John Ormento received 0 years. 7A “sweetheart” contract is one that is made, in fact, to favor the employer while it purports to favor the employee. * John Masiello was convicted in the early 1970's of bribing a U.S. Post Office employee in order to receive a mail trucking contract. Masiello’s testimony later helped convict Congressman Frank Brasco (New York City) of accepting bribes. “Tony Vanella is a member of the Gambino family, Joe Riccobono was a con- Ssigliere of the same family. Abe Chait operated Champion Trucking in the gar- ment area. Tommy Lucchese was head of a New York family. Louis Lepke was the leader of Murder, Inc. Labor extortionist Joe Amarusso was a partner of Lepke’s. David Dubinsky was the president of the ILGWU. 10 Dubi said, “Fine.” Rr cm guys would be allowed to have nonunion Ps. E. The Federal response ial Because a number of attendees at the Apalachin meeting were irectly or indirectly involved in union affairs, some were called before the Senate Select Committee on Improper Activities in the Labor or Management Fields, chaired by Senator John L. McClellan, These hearings became known as the McClellan committee hearings. Senator John F. Kennedy was a member of this committee; his brother, Robert F. Kennedy, was its chief counsel. (45) ~Within days after the Apalachin meeting, the FBI decided to set up its top hoodlum program. Selected FBI field offices around the country were required to assign personnel to obtain information and intelligence on major racketeers, beginning with those who had at- tended the meeting, but by no means limited to them. While the data thus obtained eth be used where possible for prosecutions, the pro- gram was primarily an intelligence operation to learn about the nature of organized crime. (46) One of the most aggressive offices was in Chicago, where elec- tronic surveillance was instituted as part of the program as early as 1959, long before organized crime became a high priority within the FBI or the Department of Justice. (47) The FBI's Director J. Edgar Hoover, was behind the program, as evidenced by the following excerpt from a memorandum, dated October 14, 1959: From the Director to SAC New Orleans. Your attention is directed to New Orleans Number SAC Letter 50—-H. A number of offices have been successful in utilizing unusual investigative techniques[*] especially in covering places where hoodlums usually meet. This type of coverage develops excellent information. Coverage of this type may only be ob- tained after painstaking investigation has been conducted to identify locations at which hoodlums meet. The possibility of utilizing unusual investigative techniques should continue to be borne in mind and the Bureau consulted if they are to be considered. (48) In the same year, the Director ordered that information in several areas—“Political Tie-ups with Crime,” “Police Efficiency,” and “Political Control and Domination of Police Agencies”—be included in summary reports. (49) The Research Unit of the Bureau was commissioned in 1958 to — prepare two monographs, one on the Mafia within the United States, the other on the Mafia in Sicily. (50) The Organized Crime and Racketeering Section of the U.S. Department of Justice, set up in 1954, had an extremely limited capa- bility in 1958. Consequently, after Apalachin, an Attorney General’s Special Group on Organized Crime was set up. Indictments were ob- *“Unusual investigative techniques” was a euphemism for electronic surveil- lance by bugging. 11 tained against Apalachin conferees, but after the trials and reversal of 20 convictions, the group was disbanded, and responsibility shifted back to OCR. (51) Under provisions of the Narcotics Control Act of 1956, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics had been assembling evidence of major conspiracies. A number of successful prosecutions ensued over the next 4 years, primarily in the Southern District of New York, with some cases involving 20 or more defendants. These cases reinforced the resolve of many major organized crime figures to withdraw from the narcotics field, others to increase their vigilance and security. F.. State and local efforts (52) Little action was taken at the State and local level, with one principal exception. In 1958, a bipartisan State Commission of In- vestigation was created in New York State to investigate the Apalachin meeting. Using grants of immunity to some attendees, the Commission sought answers to many questions. Several witnesses who refused to answer were found guilty of civil contempt and were put in prison for as long as 16 months before purging themselves. These penalties were the only ones meted out. Il. LA COSA NOSTRA: FBI FILE 92-6054 - (53) By 1960, the FBI had accumulated substantial knowledge about Italian organized criminal groups. For example, it obtained the first evidence that these groups were nationally directed as one or- ization. This information came from electronic surveillance of am Giancana, head of the Chicago family. Giancana was heard to ay that the Apalachin meeting had been a gathering of something called “The Commission.” He indicated that he himself was a member, and he named others, identifiable as crime leaders from New York. Pennsylvania, Michigan and New England, who had also been at Apalachin. The FBI file noted: CH-T-1* advised in September 1959 of-the existence of a small group of persons representing criminal groups in vari- ous sections of the United States and referred to as “The Commission.” Other early information gathered as part of the top hoodlum program was: N.Y.—T-12 advised in December 1959, of a rite of membership in said criminal organization. Nevertheless, the FBI did not make organized crime a top priority until the Kennedy administration arrived in Washi A. La Cosa Nostra and the Kennedy administration (54) President Kennedy’s direct involvement in the effort to combat 0 ized crime dated back, as noted earlier, to his participation in the McClellan Committee labor racketeering investigation. With the advent of his administration, organized crime investigations were **“T" numbers are assigned to confidential sources; CH-T-—1, then, is a princi- el source for the Chicago Field Division of the FBI. _ 12 assigned a high priority: Kennedy had named his brother as Attorney General, and Robert Kennedy was equally interested in breaking up organized crime. His concern, too, dated back to the McClellan Committee. (55) Asa first step, Robert Kennedy dramatically expanded the num- ber of attorneys in the Organized Crime and Racketeering Section of the Criminal Division of the Justice Department and made clear to the FBI that organized crime was to be a high priority. The category within which these investigations were carried at Justice was shown in FBI files to be A.R., or antiracketeering. He also put together a list of 40 organized crime figures who were to be targeted for investiga- tion. This was soon followed by a second list of 40. The Attorney Gen- eral quickly requested new legislation to improve the Department’s ability to attack organized crime. B. Intelligence operations (56) A major focus of the new effort at Justice was intelligence-gath- ering. The top hoodlum program was expanded and became the crimi- nal intelligence program. Records indicated the creation of file No. 92-6054 at FBI headquarters, evidence of the increased attention being paid the Mafia. Originally called “The Criminal Commission et al.,” it was renamed “La Causa Nostra.” Special agents were directed to ob- tain intelligence concerning the existence of a national criminal orga- nization. The FBI soon began to employ widely the intelligence-gath- ering techniques that had long been used in domestic security and counterintelligence operations, to wit, physical surveillance, electronic surveillance and confidential informants. (57) The FBI also began to develop a strategy that would corre- spond to the nature of the criminal organization it was facing. An agent was assigned at all times to each targeted crime figure, a one- on-one coverage that was a luxury beyond the resources of local police departments, even those concerned about organized crime. Special agents were to work under a coordinator who would supervise activi- ties directed at criminals known to be associated with each other. As a national agency, the FBI was also able to coordinate intelligence gathered throughout the United States and incorporate it into a com- plete national picture. | (58) The earliest and perhaps greatest yields of criminal intelligence came from the Chicago and New York field offices. They had been the most aggressive in implementing the top hoodlum program. The New York Division had assigned considerable resources to various investi- gations related to the Gallo-Profaci gang war, which had broken out in January 1961 in New York City. This internal dispute represented the first serious breach of discipline in 80 years. The ensuing violence attracted considerable national attention. (59) On June 21, 1961, Director J. Edgar Hoover sent SAC letter 71-84* to the field offices to provide them with up-to-date information on the “Criminal Commission et al,” including new terminology that had been learned. For example, “avugat,” short for the Italian word “avvocato” (attorney), was being used to designate one position in the *SAC letters are sent by the Director of the FBI to advise supervising agents- in-charge of field offices on matters of import or to give instructions. 13 commission. In addition, the letter outlined what came to be known as the top echelon informant program, with these directions: To successfully complete our intelligence picture of the con- trolling forces which make organized crime operative, it is now urgently necessary to develop particularly qualified live sources within the upper echelon of the organized hoodlum element who will be capable of furnishing the quality infor- mation required. To date the best data has come from highly confidential sources in Chicago and New York and recently Newark. (60) The SAC letter directed the field offices in Chicago, Detroit, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Newark, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and San Francisco to set up squads of spe- cial agents whose exclusive assignment was to be the development of informants. Each office was to submit five possible targets (New York was to submit 10). On November 3, 1961, additional information re- garding the “subject organization” was distributed to field divisions by means of the Criminal Intelligence Digest. (61) By January 1962, when the escalated program was about 1 year old, the Director reported in that month’s criminal intelligence bul- letin that successful penetration into “the innermost sanctums of the criminal deity” was being made, an action which he described as “cre- ating an uneasy stir among professional vice lords.” (62) As noted above, the FBI’s limited legal authority to address organized crime matters was expanded by what became known popu- larly as the travel bills, legislation that Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy had introduced into Congress. They made interstate trans- portation in aid of racketeering (ITAR) a Federal crime. The laws gave the Bureau authority to act in gambling, extortion, and other crimes, so long as they could show some interstate aspect. All the mate- rial in file 92-6054 (La Cosa Nostra) that had been labeled AR (anti- racketeering) were now relabeled ITAR. C. A successful operation (63) The FBI’s intelligence operation against organized crime must be characterized as a success. In a comparatively short time, “live” sources were being noted in field office reports, some identified as ““mem- bers” of the criminal organization under investigation. Important crime figures in leadership positions had also become unwitting in- formants—as their conversations about the associations and activities of their peers were monitored by electronic surveillance “bugs” in many parts of the United States.* This information was supplemented by *The value of electronic surveillance as an intelligence-gathering instrument is shown clearly in an August 21, 1964, memorandum from Courtney Evans, Associate Director, Special Investigative Division, to Al Belmont, Associate Di- rector, General Investigative Division : Milwaukee, Madison, Springfield, Rockford, Kansas City and St. Louis are “strictly answerable to the leadership of the Chicago Family in any major policy decisions or significant problems.” Balistrieri [of Milwaukee] did a favor for Joe Bonanno and this angers Sam Giancana when he learns of it, because of Bonanno’s disfavor with the Commission. We are probably in the unique position of better understanding Giancanda’s re- action than was Balistrieri. The term Boss, Consiglieri, Caporegima Borgata, L.C.N., Mafia and Commis- sion are heard in the Chicago area. (Continued) 14 the results of more traditional investigations. The FBI established liaison with reliable local law enforcement officials, with whom joint operations, exchanges of intelligence, and other cooperative efforts were effected. (64) The character of what the strengthened program learned may be easily illustrated. The FBI learned, for example, of a plan by Chi- cago hoodlums to kill Frank Esposito, a Chicago labor leader, during the winter season in the Miami Beach area in 1962. The information was given to the local sheriff and action taken to prevent the homicide. This intelligence had been obtained by bugging the Miami residence of Jackie Cerone, a principal in the Chicago organization. (65) The surveillances also provided information on past killings— i.e., how Chicago killers employed “plants,” how they concealed shot- guns and other murder paraphernalia in special compartments built into their automobiles, and how some homicide victims were “sealed” (bricked up) in the walls of seldom used buildings. They also learned the gruesome details of a 3-day torture-murder of William “Action” Jackson, a loanshark working for them who was suspected of being an informant.” (66) The FBI learned that, as a favor to friends in “the East” who had made the request, California members of the criminal organization had a “contract” to kill an Italian immigrant who had entered the U.S. illegally. The Bureau arrested the intended victim and sent him to prison for his immigration violations, thus saving his life. (67) The FBI also became aware that the CIA was contacting under- world figures in connection with its plans to assassinate Premier Fidel Castro and made these known to the Attorney General in 1962. (68) On May 29, 1962, the FBI produced a chart entitled “Chicago Criminal Organization.” It listed more than 125 persons, their geographical area of operation in and around Chicago, and their activities, lezal and illegal. It also noted their “political contacts,” that included members of the Board of Aldermen, of the Illinois State Legislature, and of the U.S. House of Representatives. (69) In the June 22, 1962, Criminal Intelligence Digest, the FBI ascribed to organized crime leader Meyer Lansky the statement that “organized crime is bigger than United States Steel.” (70) The information on Chicago was quite comprehensive and was the subject of an internal FBI document of the Special Investigative Division, dated December 7, 1962: (Continued) and Our recent expansion in development of intelligence on the existence activity of La Cosa Nostra in Wisconsin tends to confirm that there is no ade- quate substitute for (ELSURS) for the development of accurate information on this underworld phenomenon. [emphasis added] *The coroner’s report on Jackson’s death was revealing of the cruelty of orga- nized crime. William “Action” Jackson—Coroner’s Report : Impaled on meat hook, doused with water. Cattle prod (electrical) used in rectum and pubic area. Shot. Limbs cut (apparently with an ice pick). Beaten about most of the body (apparently with baseball bats). Severe body burns, inflicted with a blowtorch. Incineration of the penis. 15 —Our confidential techniques and sources in Chicago are de- scribing the almost complete influence and control of poli- ticians, police, and even courts in the Chicago area by the underworld. —Giancana and his hoodlum associates stay clear of Federal violations in our jurisdiction. Our agents are contacting and interviewing these hoodlums and their associates, play- ing one against the other with the objectives of causing mistakes on which we can capitalize. —We are disseminating information of local violations where we can find a trustworthy local official. We are again sending to the Attorney General a memorandum high- lighting this corruption and enclose a detailed report which can be utilized in Grand Jury hearings to begin in December. —During grand jury hearings we will endeavor to develop (1) Federal violations, (2) local violations, and failing these will explore whether Chicago judges will permit Fed- eral grand jury to make public statement on widespread corruption in Chicago, thus driving home to the people of Chicago critical situation in that city. D. Joseph M. Valachi -(71) In 1962, Joseph M. Valachi was a prisoner in the Federal correctional institution in Atlanta, Ga., serving concurrent terms of 15 to 20 years for narcotics violations. He had become convinced that Vito Genovese, the leader of the criminal group to which Valachi belonged, had “arranged” for his murder for being an informant. Valachi was positive this could easily be effected within the prison. At his request, he was placed in solitary confinement but, when he could not substantiate his fears, was returned to the general prison population. On June 22, 1962, using a piece of pipe from a prison construction site, Valachi beat another prisoner to death, believing him to be Joseph DiPalermo, another New Yorker, who had been delegated by Genovese to be the executioner. The deceased turned out to be Joseph Saupp, who bore a likeness to DiPalermo. (72) While awaiting trial for this murder, Valachi communicated to the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York that he would be willing to “talk.” In return, the Government accepted a plea of guilty to murder in the second degree. (73) Valachi not only began to divulge his extensive knowledge of the organization to which he belonged, but also indicated he might be willing to give public testimony. FE’. FBI report on the Commission (74) ‘Toward the end of 1962, Director Hoover asked that all in- formation on the Italian criminal organization in the United States be summarized in a report, to be compiled by the New York field Office. Responsibility was given to a New York special agent who had been “handling” Joseph Valachi since September. All field offices were to submit their information to New York. (75) The report was issued January 4, 1963, still under the title of “The Criminal Commission Etal.” It described the positions, hierarchy 16 An Organized Crime Family BOSS (Capo) Aes COUNSELOR (Consiglere) UNDERBOSS Siege Naa LIEUTENANT LIEUTENANT LIEUTENANT (Caporegime) (Caporegime) (Caporegime) LIEUTENANT LIEUTENANT (Caporegime) (Caporegime) SOLDIERS SOLDIERS SOLDIERS SOLDIERS SOLDIERS (Soldati) (Soldati) (Soldati) (Soldati) (Soldati) NON-MEMBER ASSOCIATES AND FRONTS VIOLENCE AND THREATS CORRUPTION: a / comet LABOR AND GOVERNMENT RACKETEERING OFFICIALS ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES LEGITIMATE INDUSTRY (Gambling, Narcotics, (Real Estate, Restaurants) Loansharking) FIGURE 2 and lines of authority within La Cosa Nostra family (fig. 2).* With respect to structure and positions, the report listed : Families: The individual criminal organizations in various areas are known as “the family.” It would appear that one family is the standard in most areas with the exception of the greater metropolitan area around New York City where five *Figure 2 was introduced into the record as JFK F-548 in public hearings. 17 separate families coexist. The Italian word used to describe each family is “borgata.” Sottocapo: This is the Italian word for underboss. In effect, the second in command of the unit, the family. Consigliere: Counselor. A lateral position in the chain of command, he is usually an elder statesman advisor, available for consultation to any member of the family. De facto he is a close friend of the boss, and his advice usually serves the best interests of the boss, rather than reflecting objectivity. Capodecina: Literally, the head of 10. He is a group leader, and this title comes from the fact that the original groups were supposed to be limited to cells of 10. Caporegime: Head of a group. This is the term which came into being when the subunits of a family were no longer limited to 10. Decina: A group of 10. When this was no longer a definite limit, the word for the group was changed to regime. Angli- cized versions used are crew, group, et cetera. Soldati: Soldiers. This can also be given as members and in some parts of the country as button man, or “made” man. Two members known to each other will identify a third as “amico nostri” (a friend of ours), with “amici nostri” used as the plural. (76) Those members with the rank of caporegime or higher made up the administration of a family. Day-to-day family operations in a family were governed by the leadership (administration). The vari- ous families throughout the United States were bound to each other &§la He 1963 e F.B.I. intelligence a Lucchese New York City RlsAl ecient z. Providence Now York York City Maggadino Buffalo Gambino New York City =i lag Chicago Bs Sa York City phnccautic : THE COMMISSION York 9 Philadelas awa 4 Baltin Hage Scranton Pro 18 to form the national syndicate. The syndicate as a whole was gov- erned by “the commission,” made up of the leaders of the larger families. (See fig. 3.)1 It was believed to vary from 9 to 12 people In 1968, they were listed as: Vito Genovese, New York (represented by his underboss Gerardo aan inasmuch as Genovese was in Federal prison at the time). Thomas Lucchese, New York. Carlo Gambino, New York. Joseph Bonanno, New York. Sam Giancana, Chicago. Joseph Zerilli, Detroit. Stefano Magaddino, Buffalo. Angelo Bruno, Philadelphia. (77) A ninth position had been occupied by Joseph Profaci of New York, but was vacant at the time because of his death.’ Generally, the commission had within its purview: —Promulgation cf policy matters which affected all families.* —The resolution of disputes between families. —Approval of the successor nominated by the administration of a family when the boss of the family died, resigned, or retired. He would not be confirmed in that position until the advice and con- sent of the commission had been obtained. (78) The summary report indicated to all field offices that the Bureau was interested in any intelligence relating to “structure, eligibility, initiation rite, oath, and so forth” of the organization. It advised that there was no information that any membership record was kept or any insignia used. (79) This report was a clear indication of the significant inroads — that had been made in understanding La Cosa Nostra. Nevertheless, the quantity and quality of material submitted by field offices for the summary had varied. Director Hoover was not entirely pleased; for example, by the submission from the New Orleans office, which listed only Carlos Marcello as an organization member. He directed the SAC in New Orleans to make a “special effort,” suggesting how: The most successful means of obtaining this data experi- enced in other offices has been the development of well placed highly confidential sources* and top echelon informants. (80) On the other hand, Hoover seemed pleased with the report | itself : Fersrvuary 19, 1963. 1 Wigure 3 was introduced into the record as JFK F-547B in public hearings. named by Sam j * Raymond Patriarca of Providence, Rhode Island, had been } in 1965. Giancana as a Commission member in 1959. He appears again in reports Nevertheless, he is not listed in the January 1963 FBI summary. Kansas City, } 2Qmaller families, such as Milwaukee, Madison, Los Angeles, family—Mil- Dallas, ete., are represented on the Commission through a larger a New waukee and Madison through Chicago, and California families through York Boss. only be read as instructions to install electronic surveillances. 4This ean 19 To: SAC New York. From: Director, FBI. Subject :La Cosa Nostra. A review reveals progress in establishing La Cosa Nostra as a de facto organization and developing leadership, mem- bership, rules, and activities. Your recent reports show a good grasp of the subject matter and clear understanding of nature, strength, and extent of the criminal organization. You may wish to submit your recommendations regarding appropriate commendatory recognition for the agent or agents handling and developing this case to date. (81) In January 1963, the Director sent a directive to the Special Agent-in-Charge of the New York Division to change the title of the investigation (and thus file 92-6054) : JANUARY 16, 1963. The Criminal Commission Etal. Anti-Racketeering Con- spiracy : Change name of case file from above to La Causa [sic] Nostra, Anti-Racketeering Conspiracy. Use field office divi- sion in title inasmuch as some auxiliary offices have not, as yet, _ actually developed the complete structure of the “Family” operating in this area. F. La Cosa Nostra (82) Some people have suggested that the name La Cosa Nostra was fabricated by the FBI in order to avoid embarrassment to Director Hoover, who had failed to issue a public warning about “The Mafia.” In fact, the FBI had gradually learned of this name through its in- telligence gathering, as can be seen throughout file 92-6054 and in other documents. For example, an April 23, 1968, memorandum from the Director to the SAC, New York, said: It is noted that information developed by San Francisco, Newark, and New York indicates a continued usage of the term Cosa Nostra as opposed to Causa Nostra in reference by members to the organization of Italian criminal element. In view of this New York office will add term Cosa Nostra to the current caption in report to be submitted July 1, 1963. Consequently, the special agent of the New York office, responsible for assembling the semiannual summary, captioned his July 1, 1963, report “La Cosa Nostra,” but included all the variables that the FBI had come across: Title: Changes of La Cosa Nostra, Cosa Nostra, La Causa Nostra, a Causa Nostra, causa nostra, Onorata Societa. (83) Clearly, there had been some confusion as to the correct form of the name: Avaust 12, 1963. Memorandum to Al Belmont from Courtney Evans : _ Information on La Cosa Nostra first received from a live informant in September 1961, in New York as La Causa 20 Nostra, meaning Our Cause. Within months there was cor- roboration from other sources, including members, who also gave La Causa Nostra. There appeared to be some disagreement as to transla- tion. Finally, Bureau translators opted for Our Thing. The sources who had used Causa, did not speak Italian well.” Subsequent to this time, “La Cosa Nostra” was used almost exclusively. G. The Kennedy program (84) The scope and success of this campaign by the Kennedy admin- istration can be easily seen in the following statistics and charts on staffing, investigations, and prosecution: Between 1960 (prior to the Kennedy administration) and 1963, there was: —A 250 percent increase in the number of attorneys—from 17 to 60; —More than a 900 percent increase in days in the field—from 660 to 6,172; —A 1,250 percent increase in days in grand jury—from 100 to 1,353; —A 1,700 percent increase in days in court—from 61 to 1,081. From 1961 to 1963, there was: —A 500 percent increase in defendants indicted—from 121 to 619; —A 400 percent increase in defendants convicted—from 73 to 288. [See fig. 4 and fig 5.] * H. The impact of the Kennedy campaign (85) These statistics trace the broad outlines of the Kennedy Depart- ment of Justice effort against organized crime. The impact, as revealed through electronic surveillance reports and other sources, was disrup- tive to La Cosa Nostra’s operations and structure. No longer was there the absence of knowledge about the nature, structure, and operations that had been one of organized crime’s main reasons for success. Fur- ther, the effort was having a detrimental effect on key moneymaking activities such as gambling; it had cut deeply into the organization’s ability to wield political influence; and finally, it had contributed sub- stantially to the dissension that was threatening the cohesion so essen- tial to organized crime. While some dissension was inevitable, many observers believe that the unrelenting pressure of law enforcement agencies, particularly Federal, showed La Cosa Nostra that it was vulnerable and forced the leadership to devote substantial resources and energies to protecting themselves, thus ignoring other responsi- bilities and difficulties. (86) The following sections contain summaries and excerpts from FBI and other documents that illustrate the effect that the war on organized crime was having. This is a frequent problem. The consultant spent a great deal of time in various debriefings of Joseph Valachi, who was born in New York City. His | Italian was very poor, spoken in the coarse which he had learned by ear as he s grew up. His pronunciation and grammar were very poor. 2 Source: U.S. Department of Justice. ‘Wigures 4 and 5 were introduced into the record as JFK F-551 and JFK F¥-552 in public hearing. 21 Organized Crime Indictments and Convictions Number of Defendants 1200 1198 1000 Defendants Indicted 6667 — Defendants Convicted 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 SOURCE: U.S. Department of Justice. FIGURE 4. Organized Crime Program y & ATTORNEYS DAYS IN COURT Number of Attorneys Number of Days 1400 1,364, 70 60 1200 50 1000 ey 800 30 600 20 400 10 200 0 0 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 DAYS IN FIELD _ DAYS IN GRAND JURY ils 1,353. 894 77 51 1 0 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 SOURCE: U.S. Department of Justice. FIGcure 5. 22° (1) On political influence (87) The FBI’s intelligence program revealed clearly that La Cosa Nostra had a deep-rooted and extensive record of political activism and that its political power was important to its operations, partic- ularly as concerned protection from the law. Much of the frustration of La Cosa Nostra figures resulted from the disruption of their long- established connections with the political establishment. The follow- ing material illustrates both the extent of political involvement and the difficulty occasioned by the new efforts. (88) On August 24 or 31, 1960, Congressman Roland Libonati, of the 7th Illinois District, then serving on the House Judiciary Commit- tee, visted the U.S. Penitentiary, Terre Haute, Ind., with approval of the U.S. Bureau of Prisons. [He wrote of his inspection tour in the Congressional Record of Sept. 20, 1960.] While there Libonati had asked to see Paul DeLucia and Frank Meehan, both mob leaders from Chicago and both in prison for income tax violations. DeLucia and Libonati gave “a disgusting display of affection with hugging and kissing.” Murray Humphreys, a Chicago mob figure visited Congressman Libonati in Washington, D.C. on May 23-24, 1960, and again on February 17, 1961. He obtained a contribution for a camp for the underprivileged, sponsored by Libonati, from International Vice President John T. “Sandy” O’Brien of the Teamsters for favors in Congress concerning an investigation of Teamsters Union monitors. (89) In late 1962, Anthony Champagne, an attorney who has repre- sented Sam Giancana talked with John D’Arco, city alderman, and Pat Marcy, ward committeeman, both of whom were Giancana’s po- litical tools. Their conversation follows: Cuampacne. But those guys nominate the commissioner. D’Arco. Let me tell you, Tony. McGetridge, Morgan, Murphy, and that jig. There’s five of them, and we got the three.” Marcr. We got the three, Mann, he’s a helluva guy. Mann, he’s the colored man. Campagne. You can bet that Bob Kennedy will push for Morris? for the spot. That’s gonna happen. How’s the mayor gonna stop it ? Marcr. Because he can tell Bob [Kennedy] that Morris [obscene] in the election. Marct. I heard that Wilson ° is going to go. D’Arco. Then Ward ‘ goes. Then we got the police depart- ment back again, because there ain’t a policeman we can’t handle. Cuampacne. You got to eliminate your Advisory Board. Marcr. As long as you get somebody from the ranks and get Morris out of there, Tony, [obscene] the advisory board. are: William McGet- 1The three being referred to on the Police Advisory Board s, Chicago gangster; ridge, who was close to and met with Murray Humphrey Morgan Murphy ; and Theophilus Mann. 2 Joseph Morris, deputy superintendent of the Chicago police. 2 Orlando Wilson. the superintendent of the Chicago police. 4 Daniel Ward, The Cook County prosecutor. 23 (90) One of those involved in the conversation said that the chair- man of the board, Franklin Kreml, was Sam Giancana’s man. The conversation also made clear that D’Arco had displeased Anthony Accardo, leader emeritus of the Chicago organization, who had sug- gested to Sam Giancana, his successor, that D’Arco was a hability and should be replaced. Giancana concurred and set up a dinner meeting to effect this change. He met with D’Arco on November 29, 1962, in a private dining area in the Czech Lodge, a restaurant in North River- side, II]. (91) Three special agents of the FBI had been planning to disrupt the meeting. They went to the restaurant, brushed past a guard, and heartily and volubly greeted D’Arco, speaking favorably of him, indi- cating they had learned he was in political trouble, and offering their sympathy. Giancana became infuriated. If D’Arco had any chance of remaining in political power, it was totally destroyed. The guard was later overheard speaking of these agents: If only there was somebody could sit down with them. What do they get out of this? Like a bunch of Boy Scouts. Hump [Murray Humphreys] says he can’t do nothing. And sweet talkers? You’d think here are three of the nicest guys in Chicago. But dirty? They would burn their mothers if she crossed the street on a red light, what with their honor! I think they would [obscene]. I never seen Moe [Sam Giancana] so mad! He hates Hill, anyway. The following day, November 30, 1962, Anthony Accardo and Paul eLucia met with Sam Giancana to encourage him to follow through on a plan to get rid of D’Arco. Accardo suggested that D’Arco enter a hospital so that “reasons of health” could be used as an excuse for his withdrawal from the political scene. Accardo also mentioned that he suspected a live informant had been telling the FBI about Giancana’s political plans. (92) In early December, D'Arco announced to the press that he would not run for reelection due to “serious illness.” Giancana’s choice to take D’Arco’s place as city alderman was Anthony DeTolve, related to him by marriage and then serving on the Illinois legislature. On February 6, 1963, comments by DeTolve were overheard: That place [the State legislature] is disgusting !I want to get out of there so bad ! Wait until I make my swan song down there. What a speech I’ll make! “Thank God, I’m getting out of this insane asylum! Oh! you guys pass laws like I never seen before. God help the people.” They got crime commission bills, they got every [ob- scene] thing down there. They’re probably even going to introduce wiretapping down there. That’s for sure! That’s coming, forget it! Nobody wants to stand up down there. [Obscenities] who call themselves lawyers. They couldn’t try a case, they don’t even know the rules of evidence. And this Association of Commerce, what a bunch of bull [ obscene ] they are. And this Porky Pig we got fora mayor ! I'll show everybody a thing or two when I get to be alder- man around here. I’ll show this city an organization! 24. (93) The next day—February 7, 1963—a decision was made to re- place DeTolve as Giancana’s choice with Michael Fiorito. This de- cision involved a minor difficulty, since DeTolve had already been officially designated as his party’s choice, and it was too late to change that selection on the offical ballot. Giancana decided to run Fiorito as an independent write-in candidate. (94) A second problem was that Fiorito did not reside within the confines of the first ward, as required by law, and in fact did not even live within Chicago, but had a home in the suburb of Winnetka. These factors were overcome by his registering as a write-in candidate and using the Hotel Conrad Hilton in Chicago as place of residence. (95) Giancana was strongly committed to this matter and essential- ly served personally as campaign manager. The criminal organization turned out its vote. Fiorito defied what would be political tradition in most places and won by a large majority. On February 28, 1963, Sam Giancana, pleased with the outcome of a recent election, was heard to say: “That will teach that little [obscene] Kennedy, who runs Chicago!” (96) Giancana’s pleasure, however, was short-lived. The media were extremely critical of the circumstances surrounding the election. Sev- eral investigations were initiated as to various matters, especially Fiorito’s residence, the Conrad Hilton Hotel registration records, who filled them out, et cetera. (97) In May 1963, Fiorito resigned. Giancana, who had reveled in being the “Grey Eminence” in the selection of the First Ward’s alder- man, was left looking foolish, especially since the position remained vacant and the district unrepresented in the city council until the next regular election the following year. (98) On October 23, 1962, Pat Marcy, a Giancana political under- ling and secretary of the first ward, spoke with John D’Arco and Congressman Roland Libonati (who was also to be displaced by Giancana). Libonati briefed the other two on the possibility of war in Cuba, China, and India. He stated that he did not even know the name of the person seeking to run against him because any opposition in his district was laughable: Last time, you guys built me up to 98,000 votes, and the other guy to 23,000. Who ran against me last time? Congressman Libonati also discussed Robert F. Kennedy: I killed six of his bills. That wiretapping bill, the intimidat- ing informers bill Libonati said that John Kennedy was a “sweetheart” but that Robert F. Kennedy was “cruel.” He described how he opposed a Robert Ken- nedy bill and then got a call from Mayor Richard Daley. Libonati says he told John Kennedy to stop Robert Kennedy from calling Daley on such matters. Libonati then took credit for a statement of Bobby’s on television that his brother wanted him to stay out of politics because he was the Attorney General. (99) In July 1963, there had been much comment by the media about the appearance in the court each day in the civil suit against the FBI of Giancana’s son-in-law, Anthony Tisci. An administrative aide to 25 _ Congressman Libonati, Tisci was asked by the press whether he had taken leave from his duties, what exactly he did in his job, and how much time he actually put in. (100) In November 1963, State Senator Pete Granata was promised $25,000 to kill a bail bond reform bill. Giancana told Pat Marcy to collect the $25,000 from the bail bondsmen and give Granata $5,000 for the “guys down there” in Springfield, Il. | (2) On Gambling (101) Traditionally, it has been supposed that gambling was a prin- cipal source of income for organized crime. A central focus of anti- organized crime efforts in the 1960’s was gambling, both lawful and TAT Sf: As part of its intelligence-gathering, the FBI, therefore, focused on “skimming,” that is, cheating operations in Las Vegas. Since early January 1963, the FBI had been using electronic surveillance there, through which it learned that most of the “skim” money was being conveyed to the Miami area, some then going to the northeast for further distribution. (102) Las Vegas skimming was a lucrative operation. Three items ie pppeuied early in 1963 in the La Cosa Nostra file provide some etails: (103) Ed Levinson and Ed Torres had discussed in early 1963 a plan to issue dividends to owners of record instead of only “skimming.” Thus, hidden owners could get profits, and this would reduce the amount that had to be “stolen” (skimmed) each month. The skim could then be reduced to $60,000 per month* instead of $100,000. No final decision was made. (104) The report also noted that Ed Levinson and Ed Torres were behind on delivering the skim to Florida. Levinson was to send $100,000 to “Miami.” (105) Also discussed was the sale price of the Horseshoe Club—$5 million. This price was described as “seems right, because the skim is $700,000 per year.” (106) The report also stated that a courier had made two recent trips. On one he carried $300,000 to a Swiss bank, on the other, $100,000 to the Bahamas. (107) On January 21, 1963, $123,500 was skimmed from Las Vegas casino operations “the same amount of money as last month.” Lansky, a Florida mob figure, was to get the money. His share Meyer be $71,000; $42,500 was to go to Gerardo Catena, a mob leader inwould Jersey. Lansky “distributes” in Florida and Catena New “in the north” **, (108) Catena, Richie Boiardo, Angelo “Gyp” DeCarlo, Vincent and Sam Giancana, all mob leaders, were said to own pieces Alo, Horseshoe, Fremont, and Sands in Las Vegas. of the (109) In January 1962, Sam Giancana had a discussion with Gus Alex and Edward D. Vogel, two Chicago associates. The conversat indicated that the Chicago syndicate, insofar as its illegal ion activities were concerned, had for all practical purposes gambling come to an *This figure is apparently per casino. _ **Lansky’s and Catena’s shares total $10,000 less than the $123,500 mentioned. ‘Part of the skim was distributed to supervisory casino employees for their silence and cooperation. This may account for the difference. HU-105 0 - 79 - 3 26 end, primarily because of the intense pressure placed upon the organi- zation by the “G,” meaning the Federal Government. (110) This fact, coupled with the fact that the State and local police had been forced to move against the syndicate, had brought the Gian- cana group to the realization that for the time being “everyone is on his own,” meaning no longer would anyone receive support from the or- AE nor could anyone expect influence to be brought to bear on his behalf. I, La Cosa Nostra and intelligence gathering (111) La Cosa Nostra had always been protected, in part, by the in- ability of law enforcement agencies to obtain information about its structure, membership, and methods of operation. Since the late 1950's, however, the Federal and many State and local governments had made intelligence gathering on La Cosa Nostra a high priority. Clearly, the organization was experiencing the steady unveiling of every aspect of its existence, as revealed in the following summaries and excerpts: (112) In June 1963, Stefano Magaddino, Buffalo, N.Y., mob leader, was heard to say: They know everybody’s name. They know who’s boss. They know who is on the commission. They know Amico Nostro (the password, Our Friend). They said to me, “What was your Caporegime doing here? What did he come to tell you?” They knew that 11-12-13 were massaged [beaten up]. To Carlo Gambino they said, “This is your underboss; this is your Caporegime; this is your Consiglieri.” (118) Magaddino was also heard to recount that the pressure on Car- mine Lombardozzi, a mob figure in New York City, had driven him to drink. Then he got charged with a parole violation for getting drunk in public. (114) In June 1963, two Brooklyn hoodlums were analyzing police intelligence work ; they cursed the police. They know a lot ... they know everything. They put everything together, lots of things. Where we take it for granted it don’t mean nothing. These people [the police] have been gathering and gath- ering. They go here! They go there! See, before it was a dif- ferent story. If you had the locals, they knew the information, but they kept it for themselves. Today, they are all working together. We got a big problem. These people are united. Everything they collect, they con- centrate. And now everything goes into one office. Before, every squad kept the information for themselves. You take this cop on the corner, you’ve been paying him for 20 years, maybe. They get the information. Someone comes in from New York and asks if he knows so and so. “Oh, he’s a book- maker.” And you’ve been paying him for 20 years!!! That’s the condition you got today. (415) In June 1963, Stefano Magaddino was heard talking to Anthony deStefano, an underling from Syracuse: 27 You see, the Cosa Nostra. The other day they made me become frightened. They know our business better than. us. They know the heads of the families, the Capodecina, the FBI does. Therefore, that’s why, the other day, I say, Be careful before you open your mouth. Because sometime somebody could be a spy [law officer] and you might think he is an amico nostro [a friend of ours and a member]. } (116) The reason for the concern of La Cosa Nostra is made clear by an internal FBI memorandum from Inspector R. W. Smith to William C. Sullivan, assistant director, Domestic Intelligence Divi- sion, dated May 17, 1963. It shows the extent of the knowledge the FBI had amassed over the previous few years: It is interesting to note that conclusions of the Mafia mono- graph on the U.S. section II[*] are supported by information from recent Bureau investigation. In fact, it is possible to substitute the newer terms relating to “La Causa Nostra” for the Mafia terms as illustrated in the following monograph conclusions : PIE 1. The Mafia (La Causa Nostra) represents one of the most ruthless, pernicious and enduring forms of criminality ever to exist in the United States. 2. The viciousness and effectiveness of the Mafia (La Causa Nostra) stem from its conspiratorial groups of Sicilian- Italian hoodlums, its adherence to a code of secrecy and sil- ence, and its use of intimidation, violence, vengeance and murder. 3. The fact that Mafia (La Causa Nostra) adherents are primarily Sicilians or Italians by birth or descent does not mean that all, a majority, or even a substantial number of Sicilians or Italians are criminal or Mafiosi (amici nostri members). 4. Mafiosi (amici nostri members) do not participate in such strictly predatory crimes as robberies, burglaries, lar- cenies, but concentrate on such immensely profitable and less hazardous bigtime criminal ventures as gambling, illicit nar- cotics traffic, labor and industrial racketeering, and boot- legging. 5. Mafiosi (amici nostri members) are continually searching. for new and lucrative fields of criminal and legitimate en-. deavor to increase their wealth, power, and influence. 6. Many victims of, or witnesses to, criminal acts committed . by Mafiosi (amici nostri members) are reluctant, through their dread of familiar Mafia (La Causa Nostra) methods, to make complaints or statements to law enforcement officers or to testify in court. 7. By means of bribery, Mafiosi (amici nostri members) have attempted—successfully—on occasion, to corrupt officials *Following the Apalachin meeting, the Director had ordered the preparation of two Mafia monographs, one on the Mafia-U.S.A., the other on Mafia-Sicily. 28 of local, State, and Federal Governments, including repre- sentatives of law enforcement agencies, to advance their crim- inal ends. 8. The legal and illegal activities of Mafiosi (amici nostri members) are so intertwined that distinguishing between the two is frequently difficult, especially as to their sources of income. 9. Mafia (La Causa Nostra) leaders carefully remove them- selves from actual association with lower criminal elements and avoid participation in ordinary criminal activity. This practice, in addition to their great wealth, power, and influ- ence, gives them an amazing immunity from arrest and prosecution. 10. In order to combat the menace presented by the Mafia (La Causa Nostra), it is necessary to understand the under- lying criminal code of the Mafia (La Causa Nostra), its “modus operandi,” the implications and ramifications of its operations, and its relationship to organized crime. 11. Since it is impossible to proceed against the Mafia (La Causa Nostra) as a legal entity, investigations by local, State, and Federal law enforcement agencies must be intensified and must be pursued vigorously and relentlessly to secure the suc- cessful prosecution of individual Mafiosi (amici nostri mem- bers) for any and all violations of law. More complete picture Recently obtained information also amplifies previous information in Bureau files and adds to the knowledge of the terminology of Mafia or “La Causa Nostra.” For instance, the newer term “Commission” received from sources in the last few years, describes a ruling body which oversees and coordinates operations and adjudicates disputes. It is noted that, in the Mafia monographs, mention was made that impor- tant figures in the Mafia met from time to time to settle disputes and consider activities for their profits. Also, more recent information describes the initiation ceremonies and a code of behavior in detail, all of which are based upon the primary code of secrecy and silence (omerta) discussed in the monographs. (117) The results of the intelligence gathering program of the 1960’s may, therefore, be summarized as follows: 1. There was a national, conspiratorial, criminal organization wan the United States which members referred to as La Cosa ostra. 2. The organization was made up of groups known to the mem- bers as “families.” 8. The “families” were headed by a leader who was referred to as a boss (capo). 4. The “families” had an executive officer under the leader who was referred to as the underboss (sottocapo). 5. The families had a position known as counselor (consigliere) ; the counselor was considered to be an advisor and was available to all members of the family. 29 6. The family had subunits known originally as decina (when the members of the subunit were limited to 10) and later called a regime. 7. The subunits were headed by a person with the title of capo- regime, This position was often referred to as “captain.” 8. The individual members of the family were referred to as “members,” “soldiers” or “made men.” | 9. The families were being governed in matters of import and policy, and in matters arising between families, by a national com- mission, the number of whose members could vary and which was made up of the leaders of the major families. 10. The families whose leaders did not serve on the commission were represented by a commission member. 11. A term used for a family leader or commission member was representante. 12. A term used for family was burgata. 13. Other terms for the organization or its individual families, often used by outsiders, were the Mafia, the organization, the outfit, the clique, the boys, the office, the arm. 14. An initiation ceremony or rite was always used at the time of entry of a new member, but was not the same in every area of the country. 15. Members could be placed on probation, suspended, expelled or demoted. 16. Members could transfer from one family to another. 17..The organization did not use membership records or insignia. 18. Organization members resided and operated in Canada. 19. The organization’s business activities were international in nature, going beyond North America. 20. Adjudication sessions were variously referred to as “a table,” “a sitdown” or “a chair.” 21. Members of the criminal organization had various professions, including law, medicine and the church. 22. There were rules which were known to members, though not written anywhere. 23. Members had been taxed for a family defense fund which was handled by the boss. 24. Relatives and friends were used as couriers. 25. Relatives and friends were used as mail drops. 26. Relatives and friends were used as message centers. 27. Members used elaborate systems of prearranged times and telephone numbers to communicate with each other to avoid elec- tronic surveillance. 28. Members had hidden business interests and used others to veil their investments, thus avoiding taxes. 29. Members engaged in political activity to an inordinate degree a) Making direct political contributions. b) Engaging in fundraising and obtaining contributions from others for political purposes. c) Supporting controlled or friendly candidates. d) Helping to control appointive positions in government. 30 e) Holding eiective and appointive positions at all levels of government. ios f) Helping relatives achieve elected and/or appointed positions at all levels of government. ee g) Trying to influence the outcome of government decisions. | h) Lobbying in favor of legislation they considered in their best interests. i) Lobbying against legislation they considered not in their best interests. j) Dispensing political patronage. ; k) Campaigning against candidates considered inimical to their best interests. 30. Money was laundered in foreign depositories. 31. Members assassinated family leaders in order to replace them. 32. The families undertook public relations efforts, that is, to protect Italians from defamation. 33. The families used and abused the services of attorneys. 34. In the entertainment field, members: a) Made friends with entertainers for prestige. b) Coinvested with entertainers to make money. c) Controlled placement of entertainers to make money. d) Engaged in the production of entertainment to make money. e) Developed, “owned,” and promoted entertainers to make money. Bh The families made illegal deals with high and lower level labor eaders. 36. The families got “finder’s fees” for arranging union loans. 37. Members got percentages for obtaining Government loans. 38. Members owned and had connection with banks. 39. Members engaged heavily in nepotism within the organization. 40. The families took care of members who went to prison with- out involving others. This included caring for the family of the convict, providing a stipend or sizable gift on release, and guar- anteeing an income-producing capability thereafter. This was a form of unemployment insurance. 41. Members created problems that would drive victims to them for protection. 49. The families had an intelligence-gathering capability. 43. The families had a counterintelligence capability. 44. The families studied the extent of law enforcement knowledge concerning themselves and their activities. 45. Informants and witnesses were intimidated or killed. 46. Members faked illness (and once, a kidnapping) in order to avoid legal process. 47. Libel suits and other legal actions were used as a defense tactic and strategy. 48. Members shook down gambling operations. 49. Members engaged in other forms of extortion. 50. Bribery was used as a tactic. 51. Other forms of corruption were used. 52. Blackmail was used. 53. Members tried to influence media stories. 31 54. Members used electronic expertise defensively. 55. Members used electronic expertise offensively against others (wiretapping and bugging). 56. Members used the polygraph. 57. Members avoided family positions that might compromise their usefulness outside the organization. ; a) John Montana gave up the family leadership in Buffalo to run for political office. b) Joe Caminiti, Milwaukee underboss, would not run the family if leader Frank Balistrieri went to jail so as not to jeop- ardize his position with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. J. 1963; Feeling the pressure (118) As the year 1963 progressed, there were many signs that the constant pressure was taking its toll. (119) In April 19638, the father of Carmine Lombardozzi, a capo in the New York City La Cosa Nostra family of Carlo Gambino, died. Law enforcement officers covered the wake and funeral for intelligence purposes. As the funeral cortege entered the church, several young men among the mourners assaulted an FBI special agent with fists and feet, took his service revolver, and then fled. Biter law enforcement officers recovered the weapon shortly there- alter. (120) This occurrence was singular, and its importance was far- reaching. An unwritten rule within organized crime was that vio- lence against law enforcement officers or other public officials was to be avoided. (121) The event was noted at high levels of both the FBI and organized crime. An April 30, 1963 internal FBI memorandum from Courtney Evans, Associate Director, Special Investigation Division, to Al Belmont, Associate Director, General Investigations Division, discussed the assault. Evans believed the incident indicated that members of La Cosa Nostra were seeking permission to retaliate against law enforcement officers, but that such permission had not yet been granted. (122) Certain FBI personnel apparently decided that they could not allow an agent to be assaulted without a strong response. One tactic was to put pressure on the Gambino family, of which Lom- bardozzi was a member. Gambino himself and all the other leaders in the family were interviewed. The FBI revealed to them the depth of its knowledge about their criminal organization to shake everyone up. ; (123) In a comparatively short period of time after these actions by the FBI and in remarkably similar language, members of the Lombardino hierarchy in Brooklyn, a La Cosa Nostra leader in Philadelphia, and a family leader in western New York State were all discussing the events. This showed the speed and effectiveness of the communications network among the La Cosa Nostra families, despite the significant distances between them, but more importantly, the seriousness of what had transpired. 32 (124) The following discussion occurred in May 1963 concerning FBI actions in response to the attack on the agent: Mrxe.' He was told specifically ... Pete.’ To come and see me ? Mrxe. You’re a captain. No, they [the FBI] don’t want to come to you to embarrass you and your daughter.® Pere. Who did they tell that to? Mike. They told that to Freddy. Pete. Yeah. Mrixe. They don’t want to embarrass you. Three of them called. To him. They said, “We don’t want to go to Petey Pumps, we don’t want to embarrass him with his daughter. Pers. They already did. Mixr. They already went to you...er... this week .. . this is the bullshit. Mrxez. They don’t want to give youno .. . in other words, they are telling you they don’t want to embarrass you. In other words, they won’t go to the convent. Well, I would say, right now Mey are giving you the zing. You want us to go to the convent? You want us to embarrass you? Well then, see that the right thing is done. Pere. Yeah. Mr«e. Actually, what it boils down to, they’re looking to use a stick. “But now we'll go on midnight raids. We'll do this, we'll do that, we’ll do the other thing. You’re a captain. You belong to Carl’s family.” Pete. Well, previous to that he hands me Carlo’s picture. “You know him?” I said, “Sure, I know him.” “How long you know him ?” “TI know him 20, 30 years.” Mrxe. They didn’t expect you so say nothing. Pere. “Can you tell us anything about him? The only thing I could tell you about him is that he is a businessman, been in business all his life. Brought up four kids. They had a good education. They’re all in business. They all went to college and married a profession. I said, what else could you ask for? He’s got a nice family.” See what they do . . . they want to get a message through. I mean get a message through someplace. There’s no question about it. Mixx. They want to put the heat on you, me. Pere. Yeah. Mrxe. Because here’s the proof of it. They’ve gone to every captain. Pere. And they call them “captains.” One guy said, “fore- man.” And the other guy said, “Capo Regina.” I mean they’re going right to each head. To the head of everybody they’re going to. But for them to say this, when he told me this, I - said, “Jimmy, I think he already saw them.” | " Mike is Michael Scandifia, an acting capo in the Carlo Gambino family. c Pete is Peter “Pumps” Ferrara, a capo in the Carlo Gambino family. Ferrara had a daughter who was a Catholic nun. 33 Pere. Yeah. Mr«e. “I think he already saw them,” I said. Now to put the heat on him to go to his daughter, I said, this don’t make sense to me. I said, “Where the [obscenity] does this come into the picture?” Now they don’t want to embarrass you. Petr. What are they going to embarrass me for? What: can they do? Go up there? he | Mrx«e. Well, God forbid! They can’t . . . they can’t throw her out. Pete. No. Mixer. They couldn’t throw Albert’s brother out. How are they going to throw her out? Peres. Nah. They can’t throw her out. Mixer. Embarrassment, that your daughter is a nun. I mean, Jesus Christ! It’s supposed to be an honor. Peres. They can’t do nothing. They won’t do nothing. Mixer. Dirty [obscenity]. Now that they bring out every- thing, Pete, the Cosa Nostra is a wide open thing. Pete. Yeah. Mrkx. It’s an open book. Pers. It’s an open book. Mrxe. Pete, you know as well as I do, familiarity with any- thing whatsoever breeds contempt. We’ve had nothing but fa- miliarity with our Cosa Nostra . . . if it bring up sides, what the hell are we supposed to do! I only know one thing, Pete. The Cosa Nostra is the Cosa Nostra. You just do what the [obscenity | bosses tell you! (125) In May 20, 1963, Angelo Bruno, Joseph Magliocco,? Sal Pro- faci,’ Peter Maggio and Salvatore Maggio‘ were meeting. Magli- occo was having difficulty obtaining the commission’s approval for him to be Profaci’s successor. He was attempting to gain Bruno’s vote on the commission. (126) During the meeting, Bruno described the FBI tactics used on Carlo Gambino. He noted that the agents had named all Gambino’s capos, named Joe Biondo as underboss, Joseph Riccobono as the family counselor, and said, “These are your amici nostri, you are the repre- ene, you are the Boss.” The agent was reported to have then asked, Did you change the laws in your family, that you could hit FBI men, punch and kick them? Well, this is the test, that if you change the laws and now you are going to hit FBI men, every time we pick up one of your people we are going to break their heads for them. *“Albert’s brother” refers to a Roman Catholic priest, who was the brother of _ Albert Anastasia, a mob leader. . Gg Magliocco (underboss to the late Joseph Profaci, as well as his brother- -law). “Sal Profaci, son of the late Joseph Profaci and Magliocco’s nephew. “Peter and Salvatore Maggio, Bruno lieutenants, who are also related to him by marriage. 34 (127) Bruno then related that they had in fact picked up one guy: They almost killed him, the FBI. They don’t do that, you an But they picked up one of his fellows and they crippled im. They said, “This is an example. Now, the next time anybody lays a hand on an FBI man, that’s just a warning. There is nothing else we got to tell you.” (128) Sam Giancana in Chicago was also feeling the pressure. Gian- cana’s concern could be readily understood. For some time he had been the subject of intense coverage by the FBI. By the spring of 1963, it had become “bumper-to-bumper,” almost 24 hours per day—while driving, on the golf course, in restaurants, wherever he was. He had also suffered a number of political defeats, and there had been the pub- licity over his son-in-law, Anthony Tisci, who worked for Congress- man Liborati being at the civil hearing on his requested injunction from the Federal courts to curtail FBI physical surveillance. As a consequence, Giancana was staying away from his home base in Chicago to a significant degree, and it was creating problems. (129) During the first week of July, FBI agents interviewed Charles “Chuck” English, a close Giancana associate, at his request. It took place at the Armory Lounge (Giancana was present in another part of the lounge during the interview). Toward the end English, who was somewhat intoxicated, tried to get Giancana to speak to the agents, but he refused. As the agents were preparing to depart in their car, English came out with a message from Giancana: “Tf Bobby Kennedy wants to talk to me, I’ll be glad to talk to him and he knows who to go through.”* On July 9, Director Hoover ad- vised Attorney General Kennedy of this occurrence and that: We have now learned that Chicago hoodlum leaders are extremely upset over the fact that English submitted to the interview and his mention of the Sinatra relationship. Later in July 1963, on two weekends, Sam Giancana and Phyllis McGuire, the singer, were together at the Cal-Neva Lodge on Lake Tahoe, Nev. One of these weekends Frank Sinatra, who owned 50 per- cent of the lodge (as well as having an interest in the Sands in Las Vegas) was with them. On August 2, 1963, Giancana and McGuire were also guests at Frank Sinatra’s Palm Springs, Calif., home, having — flown there on Sinatra’s plane. These and other similar facts appeared in the Chicago newspapers and other media and resulted in action by the Nevada Gaming Commission, which had listed Giancana as a per- son not to be allowed in any premises licensed for gambling. Sinatra _ refused to deny his close relationship with Giancana and decided to sell his interests rather than run the risk of a suspended license. Later that month, the FBI learned of rumbling in the higher eche- lons of organized crime in Chicago over Giancana’s absenteeism and bad publicity. Tony Accardo, Fifi Buccieri, Joe Gagliano, and Willie Messina supported the idea of Accardo protégé Jackie Cerone’s taking | over the mob’s activities, at least during Giancana’s extended absences. *English had indicated previously that Frank Sinatra, the singer and enter- tainer, would be the person to arrange such'a meeting. 35 (180) In October 1963, Pat Marcy, a political front man for Sam Giancana, and another man were overheard talking. The other man stated that he had never seen conditions so bad as they were in Chicago at the time. The other individual then stated that Paul Ricca (former leader of the Chicago criminal organization) advised him that the organization must be patient and wait for the pressure to lift. (131) Sam Giancana and his organized crime peers were facing other problems as well, which many experts attributed to unremitting Gov- ernment pressure. Internal dissension was a major concern. It had several principal sources. (132) First, Joseph Bonanno, a family leader who alternated his time between New York City where his family was located, and Tuc- son, Ariz., where he resided with his nuclear family, became overly ambitious. He suggested that Frank DeSimone, leader of the southern California family, be deposed and supplanted with Bonanno’s son, Salvatore. This suggestion was strongly opposed by other commission members, particularly Stefano Magaddino of Buffalo. (133) Second, the Gallo-Profaci gang war was raging in New York, and had been since 1961. It was described in an FBI Intelligence Bulletin as “the most notorious feud in gangland since the Castella- marese War” (circa 1930-31). Though an intrafamily affair, it was threatening to involve other New York families, and the media’s cover- age could not have pleased organized crime anywhere.* *The events in the war up to 1962 were recapitulated in a report: Monday, Feb. 27, 1961. Headed by Nicholas Forlano, Carmine Persico, Jr. and the Gallo brothers, the insurgents kidnap five persons: Family underboss Joseph Magliocco, four capos of the Profaci family. They are held until February 28. Long distance negotiations are conducted with Joseph Profaci, the family leader, who is in Florida. Between 90 and 125 members of the family’s 150 side with the insurgents. The Gallo brothers were in contact with Anthony Strollo (alias Tony Bender) the day before the kidnappings and they claim that they had his endorsement for this coup. [Strollo was a capo in the Vito Genovese family. Genovese had only recently been sent to prison for a 15-year term for narcotics violations. This move was apparently interpreted as an overly ambitious one on the part of Strollo, and in September 1962 he and his Cadillac “disappear,” neither to be seen again. ] In early May, shots are taken at Joey Gallo. The dispute is referred to the Commission. In August, John Scimone “defects” to the Gallo side, but he is really a Profaci “plant” in the enemy midst. Nicholas Forlano and Carmine Persico, Jr., ameliorate their differences with Profaci and return to his discipline and control. They are made the principal mercenaries who are to eradicate the rebellious Gallo brothers. Joe Jelly (a Gallo associate) is taken out on a fishing trip, is shot, arms and legs cut off the torso, all placed in a barrel and tossed into Sheepshead Bay. His clothing, stuffed with dead fish, is thrown from an auto in front of a restaurant the Gallos frequent as a message. Aug. 20, 1961. At the Sahara Lounge, a Brooklyn supper club, an attempt is made on the life of Larry Gallo, by strangulation. The escaping felons departing the scene shoot and wound a police officer. Sept. 21, 1961. Anniello Dellacroce, a capo in the Carlo Gambino L.C.N. family, is dining in the Luna Restaurant in Manhattan and is severely beaten by the Gallo group. The FBI learns that although he was not present at the Sahara, Dominick “Mimi” Scialo supervised the attempt on Larry Gallo’s life. October 1961. There is an attempt to murder family leader Joseph Profaci at a New Jersey hunting lodge. The manager of the premises is able to convince the Gallos that “The old man is not present,” and thus saves his life. fcodteent ontinue 36 (134) The death of Joseph Profaci in March 1962 in the middle of the war had offered the possibility that new leadership might bring the conflict to an end. Giuseppe Magliocco, Profaci’s underboss and brother-in-law, wanted to take over the family. The commission, how- ever, was reluctant to approve his succession because the rebel Gallo group would not accept his leadership, and the war would have con- tinued. (135) Bonanno and Magliocco then decided to eliminate some of their opposition by assassinating Carlo Gambino and Thomas Lucchese, two other New York family leaders and commission mem- bers. The assassin to whom Magliocco gave “the contract,” however, revealed the plan to Gambino, who lodged a complaint with the commission. | (1386) In the summer of 1963, the commission tried to negotiate a truce. There was a meeting in Atlantic City, attended by Stefano Magaddino, Carlo Gambino, Thomas Lucchese, Joseph Magliocco, Joseph Bonanno, and Angelo Bruno (all save Magliocco were com- mission members). Magaddino called Joseph Magliocco, a self-ap- pointed commission member, who owed the commission $43,000 (ex- penses involved in investigating charges against him). He further told Magliocco that he was not approved as a boss of a family, and he was to stop acting as one, immediately. The commission also tried to deal with the Bonanno/Los Angeles issue. Magaddino did not think highly of Frank DeSimone, the boss of the Los Angeles family, but disapproved of Joe Bonanno’s plan to send his son Bill (Salvatore) and 40 men in Los Angeles to take over as representante (or boss). Magaddino, speaking to two of his underlings and wanting to impress them with the authority of a boss, said, “Not even the Holy Ghost could come into my territory without authorization.” (Continued) INov. 11, 1961. Salvatore Mangiameli of the Gallo gang and Michael Riz- zitelli (an expatriate New Yorker who has returned from California to aid the Gallos) kill John Guariglia (of the Profaci group) and the owner of a lounge where Guariglia was found. November 1961. Six of the Gallo gang adherents desert and defect to the opposition. Dec. 2, 1961. An attempt is made to kill Larry Gallo with a shotgun. The assassin was driving a sports car disguised as a woman [sic]. Jan. 12, 1962. The Gallos beat up two of Carmine Persico’s men, found in a nightclub. Jan. 29, 1962. Mike and Philip Albergo are shot and wounded while attempt- ing to repair an ice-picked flat tire. This is because of their business association f with the Gallos. A temporary truce is declared. Mar. 5, 1962. Several shots miss Joseph Profaci, Jr. Mar. 11, 1962. Two soldiers in the Carlo Gambino L.C.N. family are beaten in a nightclub. Nicholas Forlano, Carmine Persico, and two other Profaci capos want the old man to step down. Joseph Profaci expires from natural causes. His brother-in- law and family underboss, Joseph Magliocco, takes over. He wants $100 per pea from every gambling operation for a fund to escalate the war against the allos. ‘ ty 1962. More Gallo defectors seek the protection of the Carlo Gambino amily. October 1962. Anthony DiCola and Marco Morelli, two Gallo adherents, “dis- appear.” 37 (187) Initially, the attempt to resolve the disputes was apparently unsuccessful, the violence continued : —June 6, 1963. Ermile Colantuono, a local businessman, was killed for giving financial aid to the Gallo gang. Nicholas Bianco, of this group, went to Raymond Patriarca in Providence, Rhode Island (where Bianco originated) to complain of this action. Patriarca agreed to talk to Thomas Lucchese, another New York La Cosa Nostra leader, about it. —June 12, 1963. Shots missed Frank Illiano, a Gallo family member. Vincent DiTucci of the opposing side was killed. Jerry Basciano was arrested for the murder but released because of insufficient evidence. —June 18, 1963. Alfred Mondella was killed. Nicholas Getch of the Gallo gang killed Joseph Cardiello. Later the same day the oppo- sition struck back and killed Louis Mariani. —September 3, 1963. The situation changed when Joseph Magliocco stepped down from the leadership position and retired. He an- nounced to his assembled capos that these were the orders of the commission. There was a cease-fire, and the commission took charge of the family. —In early 1964, Joseph Colombo was appointed by the commis- sion as leader, and the war came to an end. The casualty list included 9 dead, 3 missing, presumed dead, 11 wounded or beaten, and 9 fired at, but missed. (138) The importance of these rifts was reflected a year later in a September 22, 1964, conversation between Mike Genovese (brother of boss Vito Genovese) and Tommy Eboli, a capo in the Genovese fam- ily. They were discussing Joe Bonanno’s reluctance to report to the commission to explain his misdeeds. Exot. If one member can dispute a commission order you can say goodbye to Cosa Nostra, because the commission is the backbone of Costa Nostra. It will be like the Irish mobs who fight among themselves and they [the Italians] will be having gang wars like they had years ago. (189) A third major concern in 1963 was the decision of the Justice Department to have Joseph Valachi appear before a congressional committee to testify saseat about his membership in La Cosa Nostra and about organized crime generally. (140) While few people knew in advance of his willingness to coop- erate, even in law enforcement circles, organized crime had learned about it. It was discussed widely throughout the La Cosa Nostra, and a number of members followed the hearings on television. The follow- Ing are examples of organized crime’s reactions: (141) James Lanza, leader of the La Cosa Nostra family in San Francisco, on August 12, 1963, was overheard talking with an associ- ate, Vito Bruno: Lanza. Yeah; this guy Joe Valachi is the guy who is telling about it [La Cosa Nostra]. V. B. Cosa Nostra. Cosa Nostra. Lanza. This guy is in jail. Vito Genovese is in jail, too. 38 This guy gave information to the federals. He attacked a man with a rock and killed him, and the prison officials didn’t know why he killed him. Anyway, this guy thought the Mafia, the Cosa Nostra had sent the guy in to kill him. This thing has come out now in the papers, but he has been telling about it for the past year. V. B. They know everything. Lanza. Yeah. (142) On September 17, 1963, Stefano Magaddino was heard to say, after a lengthy discussion about Joseph Valachi, “We passed laws that this guy has got to die.” (143) On September 27, 1963, John Sebastian LaRocca’s decision to remain in the Pittsburgh area during the months of October and November 1963 was said to depend on the testimony of Joseph Va- lachi. If his testimony should “hit closer to home,” LaRocca would take a short vacation at his Bel Aire, Fla., residence. LaRocca was extremely annoyed at Valachi’s testimony and would not allow it to be discussed in his presence. He claimed, “Valachi hasn’t done a decent thing since he was born, and never did a good thing in his life.” La- Rocca, in fact, departed for Florida on October 10, 1963. (144) On September 28, 1963, Stefano Magaddino, Peter Magad- dino, and Sam Rangatore discussed newspaper coverage of Joseph Valachi’s testimony. Magaddino was concerned that some time in the past he had told Valachi about a murder that he, Magaddino, had committed. The participants in the conversation characterized Va- lachi’s testmony as “fairy tales.” Magaddino said that Vito Genovese should have killed Valachi. (145) On October 10, 1963, Giancana and English talked about Valachi’s testimony. They said they believed that Valachi would not be able to hurt the Chicago organization, but that he was doing great harm to the New York members. English feared the Government would capitalize on the situation in the future to obtain other in- formants by showing that they had gone along with Valachi and had not held him accountable for his crimes. (146) On October 16, 1963, Giancana issued instructions to all po- litical associates to discontinue their practice of attending weddings and funerals of hoodlum families. ) (147) On October 24, 1963, in Miami, Fla., Madeline Costello, wife of Charles, a mob figure, was speaking to an unidentified male: I won’t talk in this house, that’s the way things are, all right. I want to talk, [ll take a walk outside. You know there’s got to be something in this house. (148) She continued saying that the house was vacant so much there was ample time and opportunity for installation of a “mike.” She had expressed similar thoughts in the past. She then commented on the situation : I'll tell you the things they are doing to that man [Angelo | Bruno] are awful, just terrible * * *. Unxnown Mater. They are crucifying him! Mapeuine. And for what? It’s all a political thing, you know. 39 (149) Madeline went on to indicate that Valachi had never laid eyes on Bruno. They all laughed at how ridiculous the Senate hearings were. They imitated the senators and laughed at Valachi’s descrip- tion of a “kiss of death.” Unxnown Matz. The hearing is all political, instigated by Robert Kennedy. They’re murdering the Italian name. (150) On October 25, 1963, Joe Zerilli, the Detroit leader, orders all Italian syndicate numbers operations closed. This order came as a result of the Valachi testimony and an IRS raid in Toledo, Ohio.* (151) The FBI’s La Cosa Nostra file also reflected that the New York La Cosa Nostra was developing a strategy to discredit the Valachi testimony by suggesting he was insane and citing the mental history of his family members. They planned to find out if his wife had any papers which might substantiate their claim. (152) At the conclusion of the Senate Committee’s work, Director Hoover provided the FBI’s perspective of the Valachi hearings. In a March 2, 1964, telephone conversation with Senator John L. McClel- lan, Hoover said that the Valachi hearings “shook them all up.” The Senator suggested that the Director write him a letter to that effect. Hoover said he would consider it. (153) On March 6, 1964, Hoover sent a letter to Senator McClellan. It stated, in part: In pursuing this purpose, your committee has placed on the record information concerning conditions most citizens did not realize existed. There is no doubt that attention across the Nation was focused on Joseph Valachi’s testimony regarding La Cosa Nostra, as well as on the testimony of other wit- nesses who appeared at these hearings. Public opinion was moved against the forces of evil. K. Attitude toward the Kennedys: Before and after (154) During the early 1960’s, many complaints, some threatening, were voiced generally by La Cosa Nostra members against the law enforcement officers who were hounding them. Some individual FBI agents were specifically reviled. Interestingly, however, there was little, if any, malice specifically directed toward Director Hoover. The real anger was seemingly reserved for the Kennedys, particularly Robert. The following information illustrates where La Cosa Nostra members lay the blame for their problems and what they anticipated from the future. (155) On February 9, 1962, Angelo Bruno and Willie Weisburg discussed the Kennedys. Weisburg, a business associate of Bruno’s, was complaining about the FBI and the Kennedys: Werssurc. See what Kennedy done. With Kennedy, a guy should take a knife, like one of them other guys, and stab and kill the [obscenity], where he is now. Somebody should kill the [obscenity]. I mean it. This is true. Honest to God. *The Valachi hearings included the testimony of Police Commissioner George Edwards of Detroit, who at the time had been designated to become a Federal judge ;he now serves on the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. 40 It’s about time to go. But I tell you something. I hope I get a week’s notice. [ll kill. Right in the [obscenity] in the White House. Somebody’s got to get rid of this [obscenity}. Bruno, however responded to Weisburg with the following story: Look, Willie, do you see there was a king, do you under- stand. And he found out that everybody was saying that he was a bad king. This is an old Italian story. So, there was an old wise woman about 140 years old. So, he figured. Let me go talk to the old wise woman. She knows every- thing. So he went to the old wise woman. So he says to her. I came here because I want your opinion. He says, do you think I’m a bad king. She says, no, I think you are a good king. He says, well how come everybody says I’m a bad king? She says because they are stupid. They don’t know. He says, well how come, why do you say I’m a good king. Well, she said, I knew your great grandfather. He was a bad king. I knew your grandfather. He was worse. I knew your father. He was worse than them. You, you are worse than all of them, but your son, if you die, your son is going to be worse than you. So it’s better to be with you. (All laugh) So Brownell [former Attorney General] was bad. He was no [obscenity |good. He was this and that. Wetssurc. Do you know what this man is going to do? He ain’t going to leave nobody alone. Bruno. I know he ain’t. But you see, everybody in there was bad. The other guy was good because the other guy was worse. Do you understand? Brownell came. He was no good. He was worse than the guy before. Wetspure. Not like this one. Bruno. Not like this one. This one is worse. Right? If something happens to this guy. [Laughs.] Wetssurc. Let me tell you something. The FBI always hated the IRS. Always. The IRS never checked with the Treasury men. They went separate ways. They wouldn’t give each other information. They wanted the credit themselves. He made it with local authorities. He made it ringaround the rosy, pal. Bruno. Oh, yeah. This guy is an accountant, see. So, now, he had to do something worse. So what? He started to think, what can I do more than the other guy. The other guy made the antiracketeering law, gambling laws, he did this and he did that. What can I do. He says, I know what I can do. Anybody that has a record that is police property, when he gets pinched, no bail. [Bruno then compares the Italian process of not allowing bail and incarcerating individuals until proven innocent.| | Wetspura. It’s still America, though. Bruno. So, it’s still America. They are trying to pass a Federal law that you can’t take the fifth [amendment]. When they grant you immunity you can’t take the fifth. Wetspura. They are not going to pass that law. Bruno. But they might. 41 (156) On February 17, 1962, Bruno had a conversation with Mario and Peter Maggio, in-laws and associates of Bruno. One of the Maggio’s said : Macaio. * * * Kennedy is going to leave, they are going to make him a special assistant (to the President) out of him. They want him out of the way, he is too much, he is starting to hurt too many people, like unions. He is not only hurting the racket guys, but others, antitrust ... I think that he is going to leave. But the only reason he won’t leave, which I heard before, you see he wants Edgar Hoover out of that. (157) On May 2, 1962, two New York La Cosa Nostra members, Sal Profaci and Michelino Clemente, and a third unidentified indivi- dual named Bob, were talking. Clemente commented: CLeMENTE. Bob Kennedy won’t stop today until he puts us all in jail all over the country. Until the commission meets and puts its foot down, things will be at a standstill. When we meet, we all got to shake hands, and sit down and talk, and, if there is any trouble with a particular regime, it’s got to be kept secret, and only the heads are to know about it, otherwise some broad finds out, and finally the newspapers. (158) Later in the conversation, Clemente stated that things were - not like they were years ago, when the commission would meet once a month and there were no cops around to spy on them. Today, he said, in order to have a meeting, you have to tell each one individually about the meeting, without letting them know who else would be present or what the meeting was going to be about, so that there would be no chance of any information leaking out. | (159) In January 1963 in Chicago, Chuck English bemoaned the fact that the Federal Government was closing in on the organization and apparently nothing could be done about it. He made various inflammatory remarks about the Kennedy administration. (160) In January 1963, Raymond Patriarca, the mob leader of Boston who operated out of Providence, R.I., had a long conversation with Gennaro Anguilo and Peter Limone, two associates, about Robert Kennedy. In summary, Patriarca stated that things were not too good as long as Attorney General Kennedy was in Washington, D.C. He related an argument he had had with Robert Kennedy when called before a congressional committee 3 or 4 years earlier. (161) On May 23, 1963, Stefano Magaddino was heard to say: We are in a bad situation in Cosa Nostra. When Profaci died, the Borgata [family ]broke up. They know everything under the Sun. They know who’s back of it, they know enti they know Capodecina, they know there is a commission. We got to watch right now, this thing. where it goes and stay as quiet as possible. Magaddino then expressed a bitter hatred for Atty. Gen. Robert F. Kennedy. (162) In October 1963, Sam Giancana, Charles English, Tony Ac- eardo, and Butch Blasi had a long conversation in Chicago. They 44-105 0 =- 79 - ¥ 42 discussed Robert Kennedy’s not being available for a Columbus Day parade, but coming to Chicago on October 13 for a B’nai B'rith affair. The “Jews” downtown were, they said, beaming. They also discussed the Bobby Baker scandal. Baker had just resigned his job, and they had not done anything to him. They surmised that he must have come out with a ton of money. (163) Next they talked about Chicago Police Superintendent O. W. Wilson’s chart on the La Cosa Nostra, presented before the Mc- Clellan committee at the Valachi hearings. “On top he had an Italian organization.” Chuck English spoke of the possibility of the Teamsters Union going back into the AFL—it would hurt Kennedy if they were to take Hoffa back. (164) They discussed golf. An unidentified person asked if Bobby Kennedy played golf; they knew John Kennedy did. Another person suggested putting a bomb in his golf bag, and they all laughed. (165) On October 31, 1963, Stefano Magaddino and Peter Mag- addino had a discussion about President Kennedy. Peter stated that “He should drop dead.” He then added that “they should kill the whole family, the mother and father too!” “When he talks he talks like a mad dog. He says, ‘My brother the Attorney General.’ Why, he never won a case. He never tried a case.” (166) The brutal murder of the President in November 1963 did not cause any changes in feelings. (167) In New York City, when Morris Schlitten, a major numbers gambling operator, learned of the President’s death, he said “Good !! Too bad they didn’t kill his brother Bobby, too !” (168) On November 22, 1963, Sam Giancana and Chuck English met. Part of the discussion was of the assassination of President Ken- nedy. Giancana commented that Atty. Gen. Robert Kennedy would not have the power he previously had, and that he would now be answer- able to a person not his brother. (169) On November 25, 1963, Giancana, English, and Butch Blasi, all members of the Chicago criminal organization, were talking. English said: “I am not a hypocrite. I didn’t like him before he died. and I still feel the same way. If he wanted to put me in jail then [obscenity ] him! !” At another point, English commented of Oswald, “This 24- year-old kid was an anarchist. He was a Marxist Communist.” Gian- cana replied, “He was a marksman who knew how to shoot !” (170) On November 24, 1963, Stefano Magaddino, Peter Magaddino, Antonio Magaddino, and Sam Rangatore speculated about Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. Stefano Magaddino said: Its a shame we’ve been embarrassed before the whole world by allowing the President to be killed in our own ter- — ritory. You can be sure that the police spies will be watching carefully to see what we think and say about this. (171) On November 26, 1963, Stefano Magaddino, Peter Magaddino, and Sam Rangatore again speculated about Jack Ruby and Lee | Oswald. Fred Randaccio entered and congratulated Rangatore on | the death of the President. There was laughing. and then Stefano | Magaddino cautioned the group. He said that the public would be | watching for their reaction and that they must not joke. All agreed. 43 (172) Magaddino then went on to say that President Kennedy was one of the Nation’s greatest presidents and blamed the assassination on his brother, Robert Kennedy. Robert Kennedy pressed too many issues behind the scenes. Neither the President nor Hoover nor the FBI wished to bring up “discussions,” which were brought out by the Valachi hearings. The Attorney General had to “accomplish some- thing” and so had pressed too many issues, | (173) On December 8, 1963, Chuck English, Sam Giancana, and Butch Blasi, all members of the Chicago criminal organization, were to- gether. English said: I tell you something, in another 2 months from now, the FBI will be like it was 5 years ago. They won’t be around no more. They say the FBI will get it [the investigation of the President’s death]. They’re gonna start running down Fair Play for Cuba, Fair Play for Matsu. They call that more detrimental to the country than us guys. Banas local problems at home, let the local police take care of it. (174) On February 2, 1964, Angelo Bruno, Charles Costello, Ben Golub, Harry Zimand, and Tony (LNU) were present. In a discus- sion of the Kennedy assassination, someone commented, “It is too bad his brother Bobby was not in that car too.” (175) On March 13, 1964, Stefano Magaddino and Peter Magad were talking to John Camilleri and J oseph Bongiorno, two dino of the La Cosa Nostra organization in Buffalo. When Attornmembers eral Robert Kennedy was mentioned, Peter Magaddino ey Gen- said, “We'll fight him as long as he lives, he is always crucifying people.” (176) On August 13, 1964, Russell Bufalino, a Penns leader, was complaining ylvania mob that someone was unable to do him a favor, and commented: _The Kennedys are responsible for all my troubles. killed the good one [ John Kennedy].They should have They killed the other little guy [Robert Kennedy ]. L. Analysis of the evidence (177) The conversation of major La Cosa Nostra figures a number of important points. As a group and as individuals, establish pressure from the Federal Government. Their attent they felt ion was focused on Robert Kennedy, but there is no evidence or even a, pressure and focus matured into a concrete plan to relievehint that this generated by Robert Kennedy by destroying his politicthe pressure al base by killing the President. (178) Nevertheless, caution is in order. While extensive, the intelli- Gence program of the FBI and other police agencies was not compre hensive. Major groups and individuals were hardly touched or - covere at all. For example, little is known about either Santos Trafficante d Florida or Carlos Marcello in Louisiana. in IIT, ORGANIZED CRIME MURDERS: ANY PRECEDENTS ? (179) Another major issue in this analysis was whether there ‘been any have parallel homicides in the history of organized crime that 44 might cast light on the Presidential assassination and the manner in which it was carried out. (180) A great deal is in fact known about the type of victims and the methods by which organized crime has traditionally committed murder. The information has been obtained from highly knowledge- able sources, usually the killers themselves. For example, —Abe Reles and others in Murder, Incorporated confessed to their own participation in murder and then testified against others in New York City and Los Angeles. —Joseph Valachi included the details of a number of murders in New York City in his testimony before the McClellan committee. —Joseph Luparelli confessed the details of his participation in the murder of Joe Gallo in New York City. —Joseph Barboza testified against Raymond Patriarca and others in New England in a context where murder was a central question. —Raymond Ferritto of Erie, Pa., participated in several homicides in Cleveland in which he implicated James Frattiano, James Licavoli and others. —Much was also learned from sources such as Frank Bompensiero of San Diego, Calif., an FBI top echelon informant for 12 years, who was himself a homicide victim. A. Attitude toward murder (181) The use of violence generally, and murder more particularly, is restricted by the leadership in organized crime. Murder is regarded as a method of last resort. (182) In the 1960’s, Peter Ferrara, an organized crime figure said, “If it wasn’t for us, there could have been 20 Chicagos.” * As organized crime became more disciplined at the close of the Prohibi- tion Era, violence of the gang-war type went into a marked decline. (183) Even though overt and frequent violence declined, the threat remained. Criminals learned to use this threat of violence, especially execution, to achieve their goals. They realize that where fear 1s great enough, actual violence becomes unnecessary. B. The victums (184) The evidence shows that organized crime has judiciously avoiding using force against law enforcement officers, other govern- ment officials, reporters and certain other groups of people. In 1963, when Vito Genovese was asked to authorize violence against Federal narcotics agents accused of “framing” some of his men, he vetoed the suggestion. Exceptions usually turn out to be persons who have doublecrossed the criminal organization. | (185) There is no precedent in the United States for violence di- rected at a high-level public official. In fact, it is said that Arthur “Dutch Schultz” Flegenheimer’s plan to kill Thomas Dewey, then district attorney of New York County, was the major factor in [ Schultz’s murder in the 1930’s. C0. Characteristics of organized crime murders (186) The following are the characteristics of a typical organized } crime murder. *This is an apparent reference to the St. Valentine’s Day massacre. 45 (1) The authorizer. (187) Use of violence requires authorization and approval. This is particularly true when the intended victim has been a member of the criminal organization, an employee or a business associate. (188) Approval usually must be given by a person of rank, power and authority. He is the authorizer. Because authorization of a crime involves the same degree of guilt as commission of the crime, the au- thorizer will try to hide his role so that there will be no direct evidence of complicity. Usually, the person conveys approval through one trusted and close confidante, who becomes the expediter. (2) The expediter. (189) This person has responsibility for seeing the crime is accom- plished. He is given wide latitude as to how it is carried out. For example, he can do it himself, he can recruit others, or he can join with others. (190) Although the expediter has the option of committing the crime (thus reducing the conspiracy to two persons, himself and the authorizer), this is the least likely possibility. He, too, is aware that layers of insulation provide protection. Most likely he will give “the contract” to others, although he cannot divest himself of responsibility for success or failure. He may subcontract the matter to a subexpediter or recruit a “hit team.” In either event, he will restrict himself to trusted persons. (3) Hit men (191) Where possible, hit men are recruited who have a record of successful commission of crimes. In the argot of organized crime, a successful “hit” is one way of “earning your bones,” that is, being accepted as a member in the criminal organization or, if already one, earning a position of trust. Persons doing their first “hit” will usually _ be part of a team with more experienced mentors. (192) Frequently, at least two executioners will be involved on the “hit” to insure success. They may act simultaneously, in the case of shootings, or one may back the other up. Bee) “Tmporting” out-of-town killers is the exception rather than the rule. (4) Murder weapon (194) Most frequently, the murder is committed by gunshot, using handguns. There are variations, which depend on individual taste, local custom or special circumstances. Killers in Chicago have tradi- tionally favored the shotgun, while killers in Youngstown, Ohio, in the past and in Cleveland in the mid-1970’s used dynamite and other explosives. Rifles have been used where it was difficult to get close to the victim, the case during gang wars. Knives, ice picks, and strangula- tion by garroting have also been employed. (5) Wheelmen and the hit car (195) Usually a car is used to reach and leave the location of the murder. There is a definite advantage to having a driver, known as _awheelman, who is local and not “imported.” 46 (6) Thecrash car (196) Frequently, to insure the safety of the shooters, a second car, referred to as a crash car, will be used. Most likely it will not be a stolen vehicle (where as the actual “hit car” might be). The operator should (if possible) be someone without a criminal record and not easily identified with the rest of the “hit team.” The crash car may carry a second person to serve as an observer. (197) The role of the crash car is to cut off pursuit by a police vehicle or civic-minded citizen while the “hit car” makes its getaway. As its name implies, it may crash into the pursuit vehicle, with the driver liable for nothing more than a summons for failure to yield right-of-way. (7) The finger (198) Sometimes the “hit team” does not know the victim and would not recognize him. In this event, a “fingerman”—someone who does know the victim—will point him out. This person may be a friend or associate of the victim and often is used to lure him to an appointed place. (8) Limited conspiracy (199) While it is thus possible for eight or more people to be in- volved in a typical gangland slaying, quite frequently they do not know each other at the time, and it is probable that only one would be in a position to give direct evidence against the issuer of the “contract.” (9) Method variation (200) Sometimes variations of this methodology are used that have special meaning. For example, leaving the victim’s corpse behind in an ordinary shooting is a form of according “all the honors of war to an enemy.” The family of the deceased may then have a proper funer- al and is able to arrange the dead man’s affairs. When there is no body, a@ proper ceremony cannot be held and the man’s estate cannot be | probated until legal death is declared by an appropriate authority. This type of murder is usually reserved for someone who “double- crossed” the person authorizing the killing.* (10) Disposal of the body (201) Bodies that are to disappear are usually dumped at sea, com- pacted in an automobile, or buried at out of the way locations such as the New Jersey chicken farm where the FBI once recovered identifi- able corpses. D. Three exceptions (202) While this methodology is representative of traditional pat- | tern of organized crime violence and murder, departures from that pattern have been recorded : *In the 1976 murder of John Rosselli, the body was supposed to “disappear.” f It had been cut up (probably because rigor mortis had set in between the time of } death and the time of disposal), stuffed into an oil drum, and dropped into the § sea. It later floated up in Biscayne Bay. This effort to hide the body, together } with the fact that his car was left at the Miami International Airport, gave rise | to the hypothesis that his assassin(s) were trying to make it appear he had f voluntarily departed to avoid deportation. : 47 —The acid blinding of news reporter Victor Riesel in New York City in 1956. —The shooting of Joseph Colombo in New York City in 1971. —The murder of Sol Landie, a Federal witness against La Cosa Nostra members, in Kansas City, Missouri. (1) Victor Riesel (203) Victor Riesel, a nationally syndicated labor columnist, had been writing unfavorably about six or seven New York City locals of the United Auto Workers, American Federation of Labor, The jurisdiction of these locals was vague, but it was aimed at un- skilled employees of automobile agencies and car washes in New York City. (204) These locals and their hoodlum officers were shortly come the infamous “paper locals” that obtained charters to be- International Brotherhood of Teamsters. (The term “paper from the was coined during the investigation of the McClellan commit locals” indicate that a sizable portion of the membership did not tee to Senate investigation showed that the principal function exist. The cals was to provide officers who would vote for James of these lo- as international president in 1957 + Riddle Hoffa (205) The regional director of UAW-AFL was John | At the time, he was a member of the Thomas Lucchese Diogua rdia. Cosa Nostra, and a person of influence in New York City’s family of La industry. His brother, Thomas, owned a material garment uncle, James Plumeri, was a labor fixer and involve supply house; his activities in the garment area; and Joseph Berger, d in gambling a was president of the vital trucking local of the Internaclose associate, Garment Workers Union. tional Ladies | (206) Riesel considered Dioguardia’s role as a “labor suspect and accused him of not being representati leader” to be labor movement.* It was strongly believed that ve of the American cals under Dioguardia’s leadership were principally the six or seven lo- taining money through labor racketeering. involved in ob- (207) Since April 2, 1956, Riesel had been broadcaster Barry Gray on a program aired from filling in for radio rant between midnight and 2 a.m. After the April Hutton’s Restau- in the company of Bettie N evins, a radio and televi 5 program, Riesel, Abe Savage, a friend, had gone to Lindy’s Resta sion assistant, and 4 popular late night hangout for media people urant, at the time others. About 3 a.m., the three left Lindy’s. Savag,e entertainers, and } Broad walked north on way, while Riesel and Nevins proceeded to her man approached Riesel, attracted his attention car. A young and threw sulfuric acid in his face. He then escaped on foot. (208) This vicious assault immediately became a cause District Attorney of New York County had additi célébre, The the New York City Police Department assigned to onal members of he could handle his office so that the investigation directly. The the United States ordered the FBI to conduct an Attorney General of investigation which was given high priority. Federal jurisdiction was based on obstruc- *In 1958, Dioguardia had been convicted of labor extortion and evasion for not having declared the procee income tax ds of the extortion as earned income. 48 tion of justice, since Riesel was possibly to be asked to appear before a Federal grand jury investigating labor racketeering. | (209) The case was solved in a comparatively short time. In a mat- ter of days, police and FBI agents had rounded up and interviewed some of the principals. This fact was unusual. Even more unusual __were the participants and the statements they made to the FBI, especially their admissions of complicity. (210) The cast of characters included : —Abraham Telvi, a young man in his early 20’s. Recruited to “beat up a guy who is bothering some fellow’s wife,” he was at the time a petty thief. Within days after the occurrence, Telvi had ad- mitted ‘his role to at least four friends and acquaintances. —Joseph Carlino, alias Joe Pilo, age 43, unemployed. He recruited Telvi, whom he knew from “around the neighborhood,” and introduced him to Dominick Bando, who had approached Car- lino with the “contract” for Riesel, saying it was worth $500. —Dominick Bando, age 47. He admitted obtaining the services of Telvi through Joseph Carlino and said he did so as a favor to Gondolfo “Shiekie” Miranti, a small-time local bookmaker who resided in the area and operated out of a neighborhood candy store. Bando claimed he received no money. —Gondolfo “Shiekie” Miranti, age 37, a small-time bookmaker. He admitted that he had been approached by Charles Tuso, whom he knew “from the neighborhood,” with a contract for $1,000. Miranti knew it was to be an acid job, but maintained he did not know who Victor Riesel was at the time. Tuso had a messenger deliver the jar of acid after Miranti reported that he had obtained a recruit. Miranti claimed that he met with Tuso, John Dio- guardia, and Thomas Dioguardia at a local social club, where they made a first payment of $500. —Charles Tuso was employed in the garment area and lived in the same neighborhood as the others. It is on the lower east side of Manhattan where the former Jewish ghetto abutted Little Italy. The Dioguardia family had once lived in this area, although John had moved to Point Lookout, Long Island, and Thomas to | Scarsdale, Westchester County, both affluent suburbs. (211) The events were reconstructed as follows: Tuso offered Mi- ranti a “contract” for $1,000 to throw acid in Riesel’s face. Miranti claimed he was given a down payment of $500 in the presence of Tuso and the Dioguardia brothers. Miranti mentioned the contract to Bando in terms of a $500 contract to “beat up a guy.” There was no evidence that Bando received or expected to receive any money. Bando then recruited Telvi through Joseph Carlino. (212) Investigators had obtained statements from two witnesses who were able to place Miranti in Hutton’s Restaurant on two occasions before the attack. One witness identified Abe Telvi from a photograph as having been with Miranti on the premises the night of the attack. Apparently he was “fingering” (identifying) Riesel for Miranti. (213) After the attack, while running away, Telvi was stopped by | two police officers. Telvi said he was being chased by two Puerto Ricans with a knife who had tried to rob him. The police officers went in | 49 search of the nonexistent robbers, and Telvi took a cab downtown to “the neighborhood,” where he reported to Miranti. (214) Telvi himself had been burned on the right side of his face and neck by some of the acid. It was decided that he should not get medical care. He went to a girlfriend’s house where he stayed for one and a half weeks, during which time he received a payment of $500. He gave $180 to Joseph Carlino for “getting me the job.” A few days later, _ Miranti gave him an additional $100 for the clothes damaged by _ the acid. | _ (215) Telvi said to his girlfriend and others that he had been told big people were behind the crime and that there were “millions of dollars” to back him up. He said to one acquaintance that he expected to be “put on a payroll for $200 per week for the rest of my life.” (216) As the investigation built up, Miranti gave Telvi an additional $500, and Carlino arranged for Telvi and his girlfriend to go to Youngstown, Ohio, to stay with a friend Carlino had made in Federal prison. Leo Telvi, Abe’s brother, drove him, his girlfriend and Car- lino to Ohio and returned with Carlino in early June. (217) Telvi’s stay in Youngstown was short, and the $500 did not last very long. (Youngstown had wide open, illegal casino gambling at that time.) He returned to New York City, broke up with his girl- friend, beating her badly in an argument, and indicated that he needed more money. Miranti paid another $500 and arranged for someone to drive him to Florida. Telvi had indicated to an associate that he suspected the driver to be an executioner. Telvi left the vehicle somewhere in New Jersey and returned home. (218) On July 28, 1956, Telvi was murdered, the body abandoned close to New York City police headquarters. ° (219) On August 17, Federal charges of obstruction of justice were brought against Gondolfo Miranti and Joseph Carlino. On August 28, Federal charges of obstruction of justice were also brought against John Dioguardia, Thomas Dioguardia, Charles Tuso, Charles Carlino and Dominick Bando. On December 6, Miranti and Bando were sen- tenced to 5 years in jail; Miranti was also fined $10,000. Both were sent to Atlanta. (220) On December 21, in New York County Court, the State brought two counts of maiming and one of conspiracy against Gon- dolfo Miranti, Dominick Bando and Joseph Carlino. (221) On January 21, 1957, Miranti pled guilty to the State charges. He was sentenced to 714 to 15 years on each of the two counts of maiming (sentences to run concurrently), and one year for conspiracy, to run consecutively. (222) On January 25, Bando interrupted the selection of jurors to plead guilty to two counts of assault, second degree. He got two 21% to 5 year sentences, to run concurrently. (223) In the opinion of Federal officers involved in the case, the }conviction of the others (including one Theodore Rij, a close Dioguardia associate believed to have been involved) on the Federal charges would require some testimony from Miranti. When Miranti and Bando were brought before a Federal grand jury and directed to answer questions, they both refused. They were found guilty of 50 contempt and sentenced to 5 years—to run concurrently with the 5 they were then serving. The Federal case against the others was eventually dismissed on November 3, 1965. (224) In several ways, this crime was an exceptional departure from the traditional standards governing organized crime’s use of violence: —It was an act of violence against representatives of the media, something that had not occurred since the murder of Jake Lingle, a Chicago newsman, in the 1930’s. It was not to happen again until the bombing death of Don Bolles in Arizona in the mid- 1970's. —The contract was let to a person who was not a member of the criminal organization issuing it. The use of Telvi, an outsider of limited capability (he was believed to be a drug abuser), was deemed to have been a gross tactical error. Telvi’s demise was presumed to have been handled by the middlemen who had re- cruited him in order to avoid the wrath of Dioguardia over their poor selection. —None of the other participants were known to have been a mem- ber of Dioguardia’s criminal organization. —There is no evidence indicating that this act was considered or © concurred in by higher ranking persons in organized crime than Dioguardia. (2) Joseph Colombo (225) On June 28, 1971, Joseph Colombo, leader of one of the New York La Cosa Nostra families, was addressing thousands of people — at the second annual outdoor rally of the Italian-American Civil | Rights League at Columbus Circle, New York City. Just over 1 year | earlier, in response to the arrest of one of his sons by the FBI, | Colombo had formed the league and picketed the FBI building in New York City. Media coverage had been extensive. He held the first cutdoor rally shortly after that event, ostensibly as an attempt to obtain civil rights for Italian-Americans. On that occasion, Colombo had been joined on the speaker’s platform by four Members of the U.S. House of Representatives. During the following year, the league had begun to charter chapters in other cities. A fundraising benefit headed by Frank Sinatra had helped to raise $500,000. Colombo ap- | peared on network television programs to discuss his goals for the | new organization and had negotiated with the producer of the film, f “The Godfather,” to remove the words “Mafia” and “La Cosa Nostra” | from the script. (226) Prior to the second annual rally, the press in New York City had reported that Joseph Gallo, a dissident member of Colombo’s family, was opposed to the movement. ! (227) On June 28, a young Black man, Jerome Johnson, carrying cameras and with some press identification, approached the speaker’s stand and shot Colombo three times in the head. Colombo underwent | emergency surgery, but remained in a coma and died 7 years later, in the spring of 1978. | (228) Jerome Johnson was immediately thrown to the ground by | nearby police and wardens of the League. As the mass of bodies fell J to the ground, there was further gunfire. When the various people} became untangled, it was discovered that Jerome Johnson had been 51 shot to death. The two weapons involved in the two shootings were found lying on the ground. (229) The investigation of both shootings was directed by Chief of Detectives Albert A. Seedman of the New York City Police Depart- ment, who concluded that Jerome Johnson had, in some way, been recruited for the assassination by Joseph Gallo. Several supporters of Colombo indicated they held the same belief, and about 1 year later Gallo himself was assassinated by Colombo loyalists. (230) The murder of Jerome Johnson is still unsolved. The murder of Joseph Gallo is considered “solved,” in that one participant, Joseph Luparelli, confessed his role and named others. He confirmed that the “contract” on Gallo was ordered because of his alleged involvement in the shooting of Colombo. Nevertheless, there was insufficient corroba- tive evidence for prosecution of the Gallo homicide. (231) Johnson has been described as a nondescript “loner” who at various times in his criminal career was involved with narcotics, por- nography, and prostitution. Gallo, while in prison, had become very friendly with Black criminals and maintained these friendships after his release. The strong indication is that Gallo would have been able to recruit Johnson through other Blacks serving as intermediaries. (3) Sol Landie (232) In the early 1970’s, the Kansas City office of the FBI was con- ducting an investigation into the bookmaking operations of the La Cosa Nostra family in Kansas City, then run by Frank Tousa under the direction of Nick Civella, the family leader. Authorization had been received for a title IIT surveillance of a telephone located in the Colonial Park Social Club at 1048 East Fifth Street, Kansas City, for a 10-day period from January 8 through January 17, 1970. Conversa- tions were picked up between two betting partners, Sol Landie and Alvin Hurst. Both were area businessmen. Landie was engaged in the salvage business in Kansas City, Kans.; Alvin Hurst was a well- known jeweler in Kansas City, Mo. Both had reputations of being big bettors, and Hurst was suspected of being a jewelry fence. (233) On August 10, 1970, and August 11, 1970, respectively Hurst and Landie were both subpenaed to appear before a Federal grand jury investigating gambling operations in Kansas City. Both invoked the fifth amendment. On August 12, 1970, they were granted immu- nity, and they testified about their gambling and about bookmaker Tousa. That they had testified was given press and television coverage. (234) On October 2, 1970, a four-count indictment for interstate gambling and conspiracy was returned against Nicholas Civella, Frank Tousa, Anthony Civella (a nephew of Nick’s), and Martin Chess, a Las Vegas layoff bookmaker. , (235) The Kansas City Metropolitan Police Squad reported that in the early hours of the morning of November 22, 1970, four Black )nales entered the residence of Sol Landie at 7914 Washington Street, 52 (236) Information from informants led to the arrests, on November 24 and 25, of Earl Howard, age 25, Edward Williams, age 23, Marquise Williams, age 19, and Gary Johnson, age 16. Property identified as the Landies’ was found in their possession. In addition, Gary Johnson’s fingerprints were found in the Landies’ house. oth (237) On November 25, Johnson and the two Williams brothers admitted their guilt, indicating that the murder had been arranged by others. In a statement signed in the presence of others, Edward Williams said that Thomas Jefferson Lee, a Black male, and John Francoviglia had contracted for the murder, with Francoviglia prom- ising a payment of $2,000*. In mid-November, 1970, Lee had contacted Edward Williams and taken him to the Refine Oil Company at 1001 Hardesty, Kansas City, Kans., where he “fingered” Sol Landie. Lee and Francoviglia had indicated that Landie had to be killed because he was a witness in a Federal gambling case. (238) Williams’ statement noted that Francoviglia had retained the four young men in the past to do several bombings. The modus oper- andi was for the young men to bomb some business establishment so that Francoviglia could afterwards approach the owners for a sum of money to prevent “the trouble” from happening again. (239) Williams said that he indicated he was reluctant to commit the murder but was called several times on the phone by Francoviglia who pressured him. He was made to feel that his own life would be in danger if he did not comply. (240) On November 21, 1970, the four men went to Landie’s place | of business to kill him, but did not do so. Francoviglia then sug- | gested that Landie’s residence would be an appropriate spot and gave | them the address and the information that the back garage door was | usually open. | | (241) On November 23, 1970, the day following the murder, Wil- liams went to see Francoviglia to collect the $2,000. Francoviglia told him that Lee had the money. Williams proceeded to see Lee, who gave him $1,000, to be shared by the four. (242) Lee and Francoviglia were arrested November 26, 1970. A Jackson County grand jury returned first degree murder indictments against them on November 30, 1970. Included in the indictment were } the two Williams brothers and Earl Howard. | (243) On November 27, 1970, in Kansas City, prosecutor Joseph Teasdale was quoted in the Kansas City Times as saying that the | murder was arranged by the La Cosa Nostra family of Kansas City. | Nick Civella was quoted as denying the charge. (244) Ultimately, the two Williams brothers pled guilty and testi- } fied for the State. They received life sentences. Later they changed their testimony about Howard, who was then tried separately and} acquitted. Gary Johnson was treated within the juvenile court system. | (245) Thomas Jefferson Lee and John Francoviglia were both con-j victed and are now serving life sentences in the Missouri State Prison. *The local police had known for some time that Lee and Francoviglia were associates. Francoviglia was also known to work in the illegal operations of Carl Civella, brother of Nick Civella. 53 (4) Summary (246) The three cases have similarities: —Each was solved in that the identity of the assassins became known. —In all three, the criminals suffered consequences. In two, the assassin was assassinated. In the Landie case, they were convicted and imprisoned. | —In each case, it appears that the person who wanted the killing accomplished recruited the mercenaries through a middleman- broker. This is known in two of the cases and is the most. reason- able conclusion in the Colombo shooting. —In each case, the person known or suspected of inspiring the violence was a member of, or connected with, La Cosa Nostra. —In all cases, the persons hired were not “professional” killers, but low-level felons outside of organized crime. —In all cases, the killers can be considered dupes who were used in a conspiracy of which they were probably unaware. —In all cases, the methodology used in the crime insulated and hid the organized crime connection, rather than giving a “message” that organized criminals were behind the action. (247) The characteristics of these cases give some support to the theories that have been advanced concerning the assassination of President Kennedy. This is particularly true of the need to hide the identity of conspirators and to place the blame on a “dupe.” IV. CONCLUSION : LIKELIHOOD OF INVOLVEMENT BY LA COSA NOSTRA (248) In 1963, organized crime obviously had a strong motive bringing about some change at the national level. While the assassinfor a- tion of President Kennedy does not resemble traditional organiz ed crime violence, the existence of exceptions to the traditional pattern of organized crime violence precludes foreclosing the possibility of its involvement. (249) Assuming that organized crime might have been involved, “wo issues that needed to be addressed were : —Was there any evidence that La Cosa Nostra, through its govern- ing body, the national commission, had any involvement in the death of the President ? —Did one or more of its members have any involvement in the death _ of the President ? (250) The intelligence gathered in the 1960’s by the FBI and other aw enforcement agencies concerning the national commission of La osa Nostra was sufficient to provide a complete picture of the concern ‘f its members and to show whether it would have undertaken such crime. That evidence is as follows. lL. The national commission | 251) The members of the commission were having their problems } t the time of the assassination : (1) Carlo Gambino 252) In 1963, Gambino had been the leader of a La Cosa Nostra amily for just over 5 years, having attained this position after the 54: assassination of Albert Anastasia. He was not comfortable in_the position. Acceptance of his leadership was not unanimous, and he had had to have Anastasia loyalists eliminated, for example, Armand “Tommy” Rava (murdered in Florida) and Johnny “Roberts” Robi- lotto (killed in Brooklyn). (253) Further, the Anastasia homicide was still under active in- vestigation. The suspects were the Gallo Brothers of Brooklyn and their associates. At the time, they were outside the realm of La Cosa Nostra discipline, having started the insurrection noted earlier, the so-called Gallo-Profaci war. How the actions of these undisciplined people might affect his own status was something to which Gambino had to give due consideration. (254) In addition, Gambino’s family was under intense pressure from the FBI as a result of the attack on FBI agents at Lombardozzi’s funeral. Gambino and others had become gravely concerned about the penetration of their organization and its secrets. Some believed the organization was riddled with informants who had to be discovered and eradicated. One “member,” Alfred Sanantonio, was, for example, discovered to be an informant and was murdered in July. (255) Finally, Gambino had been informed by Joseph Colombo that Giuseppe Magliocco and Joseph Bonanno were engaged in a cabal to assassinate him and his close associate, Thomas Lucchese, in an at- tempt to expand their own power. Gambino and Lucchese were close: they had children who were married to one another. With Vito Genovese in prison, if this plan had been successful, Bonanno and Magliocco might have been able to dominate that family, as well as those two whose leaders were to be assassinated, thus controlling the New York bloc of five families. Gambino vigorously protested the plan to the national commission. (2) Thomas Lucchese (256) Lucchese had the same problem as Gambino—he was a target for murder. He, too, was disturbed about the break in the solidarity of the five families in New York. In the past, the five together dom- inated the La Cosa Nostra throughout the United States because they were the strongest bloc, and often the majority of the commission. (3) Vito Genovese (257) During 1968, Genovese was serving the third year of a 15-year Federal sentence for narcotics violations. He was, for this and other reasons, an insecure La Cosa Nostra leader. He had, however, experi- enced others moving ahead of him before, on other occasions when he had had to be “away.” In 1937, while in charge of the family whose leader Lucky Luciano had been sent to prison, Genovese himself had to flee to Italy to avoid prosecution for murder. By the time he re- turned in 1945 (following World War II), he found that Frank Costello, formerly an underling, was ensconced as leader. (258) Genovese had tried to avenge himself in 1957 by having Cos- tello murdered. Though Costello was only wounded slightly, he did retire early, and Genovese assumed command. (259) Genovese soon faced new difficulties. In October 1957, he had requested a commission meeting to gain endorsement of his takeover. 55 Chairman Stefano Magaddino of Buffalo selected the estate of J oseph Barbera at Apalachin, N.Y. The site was discovered by the New York State Police, a serious blow to La Cosa Nostra. (260) As family leader, Genovese became a principal target of law enforcement activity. After 2 years, he was indicted for a narcoti cs conspiracy, convicted, and sent to prison. In order not to be victim- ized again with respect to the family’s leadership, he created a troika to run the family in his absence—Gerardo Catena, the family under- boss; Michele Miranda, the consigliere; and Tommy Eboli, a trusted capo for whom Genovese created the hitherto unknown designation of “acting boss.” aes Even these precautions were insufficient. While in prison, enovese became suspicious of the activities of another close lieuten- ant, Anthony Strollo (Tony Bender). Strollo was known to have en- couraged the Gallo brothers in their rebellion, and Genovese suspecte d he would attempt to take over their family. In the autumn of 1962, Strollo “disappeared,” complete with Cadillac; neither was ever seen again. (262) In the autumn of 1963, Genovese’s stock as a crime boss dropped to an all-time low. Valachi was telling all he knew about Genovese, the La Cosa Nostra and other organized crime matters, not only to the FBI, but in front of network television cameras in gressional hearings. Genovese had sponsored Valachi’s transfer con- into his family and the two had been close; Genovese had been Valachi’ s ‘best man at his wedding. Further, Genovese had ordered Valachi mur- dered in the Atlanta prison for being an informant, but he had been unable to have the execution performed. the young men doing most of his dirty work had led to the outbrea of the Gallo-Profaci gang war. Profaci had not only been unable k to (264) In late 1962, Profaci died of natural causes. At that time, inderboss and brother-in-law, Giuseppe Magliocco, had turned his ld friend, Joseph Bonanno, for help in gaining recognition to an aci’s successor (Bonanno’s son was married to Profaci’s as Pro- daughter, ions. Magliocco gave the “contract” to one of his capos, Joseph Jolombo. Colombo squealed to the intended victims, who complai ) the commission. (Colombo was rewarded, following the ned displace- tent of Magliocco, by being given leadership of the family.) 265) Stefano Magaddino, as chairman of the commission, investi- ted the complaint, and Magliocco confessed the plot. Magadd ino 1en told him he was not a boss, never having been confirmed by the 56 commission, and that because of the plot, he was to be cast out of the family. In addition, he was “fined” $43,000 to cover the “expense” of trying to settle the dispute. Magliocco, happy for his life, paid the sum in four installments. He died in 1963 of natural causes. (5) Joseph Bonanno (266) Bonanno had more seniority as a La Cosa Nostra boss than any member of the commission save Joseph Zerilli in Detroit. He could easily have considered the others as upstarts. He lived in Tucson, where he had moved immediately after World War II. There he kept a low profile, and by 1953, when the U.S. Government brought depor- tation proceedings against him, Bonanno was able to get personal testimony or affidavits on his behalf from many prominent persons in Arizona, including a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, a Member of the U.S. House of Representatives (who later ran for Governor of the State), and a member of the State supreme court. (267) Bonanno was an ambitious man. In addition to control of a New York La Cosa Nostra family, he had a regime from his family operating in Montreal and Quebec, Canada. He had extensive business enterprises, including large holdings in cheese companies in Canada and Wisconsin. He was very much aware of the tremendous wealth — emerging in California and the failure of the Los Angeles Cosa Nostra family to exploit it. Thus, he plotted to take over the jurisdiction. His _ plan was to depose Frank DeSimone, the southern California leader, and replace him with Salvatore (Bill) Bonanno, his son, and 40 hand- — picked men who could provide better leadership. As a member of the commission, Bonanno already had oversight jurisdiction over the two | northern California families—in San Francisco and San José. (268) Bonanno’s goal was to become the principal La Cosa Nostra leader in the United States. By eliminating Gambino and Lucchese, and with Magliocco’s support, he could dominate the New York fam- ilies. With his sons in power in southern California and the support of the northern California families, with whom he had good rapport, he believed his goal could be reached. : (269) His plans were ruined by the treachery of Joseph Colombo and antagonism of Stefano Magaddino. By late 1963, Bonanno was in serious trouble, exacerbated by his refusal to appear before the com- [ mission as ordered. This led Giancana to suggest, “Don’t send him f another message, kill him!” By December 1963, Bonanno had to an- | nounce to his capos that he would be leaving for quite some time. He Tunes the leadership of the family over to his brother-in-law and } is son. (6) Sam Giancana (270) Giancana’s position as a leader was also getting shaky. During} 1963, he was reacting, sometimes emotionally, to the intense FBIf coverage to which he was subject. In midyear, he went to Federal} court (an unprecedented act) to seek an injunction against the close} surveillance, but lost on appeal. Anthony Tisci, his son-in-law, was} in daily attendance during the trial, trying to help Giancana. This} raised questions about a possible conflict of interest, since Tisci was atj the time on the payroll of Roland Libonati, a congressional repre-j Seynanihs from Chicago to the House, and the media played up thef ory. 57 (271) Shortly thereafter, Giancana made national headlines again when he and Phyllis McGuire, a frequent companion, were guests at the Cal-Neva Lodge at Lake Tahoe, which was partially owned by Frank Sinatra, and then at the entertainer’s Palm Springs, Calif., home. The Nevada Gaming Commission demanded that Sinatra break off this friendship. Sinatra responded that he would sell his interest in Cal-Neva and the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas. This national atten-s tion and Giancana’s prolonged absences from Chicago led his leagues to suggest that someone else lead the family, at least during col- his time away. (272) Giancana was also greatly concerned that he would be brought before the McClellan committee. (7) Angelo Bruno (273) In 1963, Bruno, the La Cosa Nostra leader in Philade was preparing to follow his predecessor, J oseph Ida, to Italy. lphia, Ida had gone there to live following the discovery of the Apalachin meeting (274) The gains being made by law enforcement agencies, . the public disclosures of La Cosa Nostra and the growing pressure had led Bruno to consider this option. He actually made a trip to Italy plore the prospect. He recommended this course of action for to ex- a close associate, Gerardo Catena (one of the Genovese troika), who that it might be a wise course to follow. agreed (275) A close friend described Bruno as “being crucified” Federa by the l Government as he awaited an indictment for interna l revenue violations. (8) Joseph Zerilli (276) The other senior member of the commission—he, Bonanno, had been on since its inception—Zerilli had along with several prob- lems to contend with. He was the mob’s comptroller of the Central States Pension and Welfare Fund of the International Brotherhood jot Teamsters. Organized crime’s path to this wealth was tied to the career of James Hoffa, whose rise from a Detroit local to a position of eminence could not have been possible without support from Zerilli. ‘The fund and much else was in some jeopardy with Hoffa facing two Federal trials. (277) Additionally, things were not as pleasant in Detroit in 1963 as they had been in the past. The head of the police department was George Edwards, a different kind of administrator. Edwards testified during the Valachi hearings that he had taken a member of the U.S. Supreme Court on a tour of the Detroit numbers banks, pointin g out che security systems which made its penetration by policemen so diffi- 58 (9) Raymond Patriarca the at- (279) - Patriarca found it necessary to become involved in tempts to settle the Gallo-Profaci war. Nick Bianco, a member of the ed his interce ssion. Bianco came from Provi- Gallo group, had request process, dence, R.I., and had made “hits” for Raymond. To assist the r.” the commission authorized Raymo nd to “make” Bianco a “membe A second proble m was the amount of publici ty coming out of (280) war Boston, which was within Patriarca’s sphere of influence. A ganghom1- was raging betwee n two predom inantl y Irish groups. The total enough cides eventually reached over 50. Patriarca became angry to de- to say, “If they don’t stop that shootin g up there, I am going clare martial law!” He, too, had his hands full. B. Other major leaders and problems (281) Other La Cosa Nostra leaders were also experiencing difficul- ties. In 1961, Carlos Marcello, the New Orleans leader, had been de- ported by the Immigration and Naturalization Service. He had re- turned and was acquitted on Federal charges in a Washington, D.C., ~ trial in late 1962, but in November 1963 he was on trial again, this time | in New Orleans. — (282) Nick Civella of Kansas City had been convicted of income tax evasion. Frank Balistrieri of Milwaukee was faced with dissension within his family. (283) Santos Trafficante’s gambling operations in Florida were in trouble; Frank DeSimone in Los Angeles was unhappy about Joe Bonanno’s plan to depose him. (284) The FBI’s electronic surveillance had been discovered in Las | Vegas; FBI installations were interrupted in California and Florida. (285) Defensive “sweeps” were being conducted in many places be- cause of suspicions that the La Cosa Nostra had been “wired for sound.” There was also Joseph Valachi’s testimony, which Robert Ken- nedy described as the “greatest intelligence breakthrough in the his- tory of organized crime in the United States. La Cosa Nostra was aware of other “live informants.” Further, there is evidence that the} more discerning among the leaders feared that the congressional hear-} ings would help build support for certain legislation the Attorney General had recommended that was anathema to organized crime:| authorized electronic surveillance and immunity statutes. | C. Summary (286) In November 1963, the national commission and a number oj} major leaders were clearly threatened by dissension, enmity andj treachery and the strongest effort as yet mounted against organized] crime. (287) La Cosa Nostra had a strong motive for taking drastic action. Yet it is extremely unlikely that it would have considered such a majo and dangerous act as assassinating the President, or, if it had, it would not have come to light. Thus there is a strange dichotomy. It also a pears that most of the leaders were too preoccupied with personal pro lems to undertake such a venture on their own. Nor does the informa tion developed by law enforcement agencies reveal any indication thaf any were planning or involved in such an endeavor. 59. An open question (288) The question is still open, however, with respect to two indi- viduals. Unfortunately, there is a substantial disparity in the quantity and quality of the FBI and other law enforcement intelligence efforts for Carlos Marcello of New Orleans and Santos Trafficante of Florida, Neither was subject to a direct electronic surveillance by the FBI in the time period of this study* (January 1963 through June 1964). (289) That criminal intelligence regarding La Cosa Nostra was not being uniformly supplied by each field office is a recurrent theme in the F'BI La Cosa Nostra file. In the material submitted for the semi- annual summary prepared at the beginning of 1963, the New Orleans office, for example, had listed only one member of La Cosa Nostra, Carlos Marcello. (290) On February 15, 1963, the Director indicated disappointment in a memorandum which called for a “special effort” by the New Or- leans office. In the latter part of 1963, Director Hoover ordered the compilation of reports on La Cosa Nostra from the major offices; these were to reach the Bureau and the New York City office (where the semiannual summary was prepared) by December 15, 1963. The memorandum reads in part: Some cities have blind spots about La Cosa Nostra. It is well to note that we have experienced situations in which certain offices took the position that La Cosa Nostra did not exist in their respective territories, only to learn at a later date that this organization, with its typical family structure, is in fact in existence in the area and has been for many years. (291) Later, when the case agent assigned the investigation of Carlos Marcello was changed, the number of sources noted in his file expanded rapidly. This escalation can be explained at least by more ageressive action by the investigator. (292) That the results of efforts against Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante were less than those experienced against other targets was confirmed to the committee by a former official of the FBI. The official, | who was second in command of day-to-day intelligence operations related to organized crime, stated, in an interview with the committee, with reference to Santos Trafficante in 1963: I do feel that we were never really able to penetrate on him very clearly. Certainly nothing like we were able to do in Chicago and New York. With reference to Carlos Marcello, he said : I certainly agree with anyone who says we never were really able to get very far with Marcello. That was our biggest gap. You just couldn’t penetrate his kingdom, with the control in that State that he has. With Marcello, you’ve got the one big exception in our work back then. There was just no way of penetrating that area. He was too smart. *Material reviewed indicates two unsuccessful attempts to install equipment a the case of Carlos Marcello. 60 (298) Dallas was another area in which the FBI was far less active against La Cosa Nostra. Although Joseph Francis Civello, a “counselor to the Italian community at large” according to the FBI, attended the Apalachin meeting in 1957, the Crime Condition Report filed by the Dallas field office for the period ending February 26, 1962, stated, “There is no evidence of illegal activity by Joseph Francis Civello.” This same report concluded that “Texas is not a place where the Mafia has the kind of control it has elsewhere.” Dallas also did not have in operation any electronic surveillance in 1963. (294) Organized crime intelligence relative to Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante as well as the Dallas area was, therefore, insufficient to indicate whether they, or others in Dallas, may have been involved in a conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy. (295) Itis evident the Kennedy administration launched the strongest Federal effort ever against organized crime. Leaders and members of La Cosa Nostra were clearly concerned by it and blamed the President to some extent, but most definitely his brother, Atty. Gen. Robert F. Kennedy. It was also clear that organized crime would have benefitted from the assassination of John F. Kennedy and the changes it would bring in Government policy and officials. Nevertheless, it is extremely unlikely that the national commission of La Cosa Nostra was involved in any plan to kill the President. It was facing strong internal dis- sension and other problems and does not appear to have been in a position to undertake such a major act. (296) A review of the history of La Cosa Nostra in the United States reveals, moreover, no precedent for the assassination of a President. In fact, he is among several categories of people against whom orga- nized crime traditionally has not committed acts of violence. Nor does the method of the assassination conform to the traditional pattern of organized crime murders—it involved people who were not members of La Cosa Nostra, one of whom was unstable, it does not seem to have had any authorization from any leader, it was conducted without the usual precautions that protect the assassin from being apprehended, and the murder weapon was atypical. Nevertheless, there have been exceptions to the traditional pattern and the Kennedy assassination has parallels to these exceptions. Thus involvement by individual | members organized crime cannot be precluded. Submitted by: RatpeH SALERNO, Consultant. III. CARLOS MARCELLO CONTENTS Paragraph The position of Marcello within the National Crime Syndicate__________________ (300) marcello. (Ar Kennedy, administration +tarvetas cee Peo uk ke cl (333 ) eo gl eh Dh digne Scr ZENE Te Og i lO! Sra i ch ed I (333) ereremene aReuerninnressurcin 5.002 i new Loa mr fae t) . (358 ) Bucnad BeBaesination tureat by Martellds:u ok Re (370) Ee enivesUsation vor the alleen tion: i vet) itn ef OT eee GT SIT (376) Committee investigation of. the allegation__.__.._..______....._........... (390) Dechera, SUL Lemont,, toy Che Committee. - ek ie nee (399 ) merreie) Drathernevidenors cbf oo. rec ton otal bys) Wor east Lee tine fle (419) (297) Following the completion of its investigation of organized crime, the committee concluded in its report that Carlos Marcello, Santos Trafficante, and James R. Hoffa each had the motive, means, and opportunity to plan and execute a conspiracy to assassinate Presi- dent Kennedy. On the basis of the available evidence, the committee concluded that it was unlikely that any one of them was involved in such a conspiracy. Nevertheless, the possibility that one or more of them was involved could not be precluded. (298) While the committee’s investigation established evidence of association between Jack Ruby, the murderer of ‘the President’s assas- sin, and acquaintances or associates of Marcello, Trafficante, and Hoffa, similar evidence was difficult to establish in the case of Lee Harvey Oswald. Despite this, some such associations—both direct and in- direct—were in fact indicated in varying degrees between Oswald and various figures having at least some affiliation or association with the organized crime network of Marcello, the long-time leadex of the Mafia in New Orleans and surrounding regions. (299) Marcello was, as noted in the consultant’s report, one. of the major leaders of the national crime syndicate. Certainly, he was one of the most successful at evading the intelligence-gathering efforts of law enforcement agencies and at avoiding conviction, at least in recent years. He became a prime target of the Kennedy administration, which was determined to conclude the very protracted deportation proceed- ings that had been initiated against him in 1953. The seriousness of _ Robert Kennedy’s intent was evidenced by the successful, albeit brief, deportation of Marcello in 1961. The Federal Government also stepped up other investigative efforts, principally in the area of tax evasion and intelligence gathering. THE POSITION OF MARCELLO WITHIN THE NATIONAL CRIME SYNDICATE (800) Carlos Marcello, now 68, has been identified by Federal author- ities as the leading Mafia figure in New Orleans, La., for almost 30 years.(7) His criminal syndicate has long provided a classic illustra- tion of the destructive impact that organized crime has on American “Society. (61) 62 (301) The exact place of Marcello’s birth on February 6, 1910, has © long been in doubt, and at one point was a central question in a lengthy deportation proceeding. Nevertheless, it is generallly believed that Marcello was born in Tunis, North Africa, with the name Calogero Minacore. (2) (302) Marcello’s first contact with the law came on November 29, 1929, when he was arrested at the age of 19 by New Orleans police as an accessory before and after the robbery of a local bank.(3) The charges were subsequently dismissed. Less than 6 months later, on — May 13, 1930, he was convicted of assault and robbery and was sen- tenced to the State penitentiary for 9 to 14 years. He served less than 5.(4) It was during his prosecution on these charges that Marcello first came to the attention of the public and press. Testimony disclosed that he had personally planned the crime—a grocery store robbery— using an interesting method of operation.(5) In testimony before the McClellan Senate committee in 1959, Aaron M. Kohn, the managing director of the Metropolitan Crime Commission of New Orleans and a former FBI agent testified that Marcello had shielded his own com- plicity in the crime by inducing two juveniles to carry out the rob- bery.(6) Kohn testified that Marcello and a confederate had supplied the juveniles with a gun and instructions on their “oetaway.” (7) The plan had gone awry when the two were later apprehended and. pressured. by authorities to identify the “higher-ups.” (8) Kohn also noted that Marcello “was referred to as a Fagin” in press accounts at the time, in an apparent reference to the Dickens character who re- cruited juveniles to carry out his crimes. (9) (303) In 1935, after receiving a pardon by the Governor of Louisiana, — Marcello’s early underworld career continued, with charges being filed against him for a second assault and robbery, violation of Federal In- ternal Revenue laws, assault with intent to kill a New Orleans police officer, and yet another assault and robbery.(/0) Marcello was not prosecuted on the various charges. In 1938, as part of what Federal agents described as “the biggest marihuana ring in New Orleans his- tory,” Marcello was arrested and charged with the sale of more than 23 pounds of illegal substance.(/1) Despite receiving another lengthy prison sentence and a $76,830 fine, Marcello served less than 10 months and arranged to settle his fine for $400.(72) Other charges were brought against Marcello over the next several years, stemming from such alleged offenses as narcotics sale, a high-speed automobile chase, and assaulting an investigative reporter; these were never prosecuted, and the records have since disappeared. (13) (304) During the 1940’s, Marcello became associated with New York Mafia leader Frank Costello in the operation of a slot machine net- work. (14) Costello was then regarded by some authorities as one of the most influential leaders of organized crime in the United States and was commonly referred to in the newspapers as the Mafia’s “boss of all bosses” or “prime minister of the underworld.” Marcello’s association with Costello in various Louisiana gambling activities had come about following a reported agreement between Costello and Senator Huey Long that allowed for the introduction of slot machines into New Orleans. (75) (305) Marcello was also involved in Louisiana gambling through his family-owned Jefferson Music Company, which came to dominate the 63 slot machine, pinball and juke box trade in the New Orleans area. (16) By the late 1940’s, in an alliance with Joseph Poretto, Marcello had taken control of the largest racing wire service in New Orleans, the Southern News Service and Publishing Co., which served Louisiana’s prosperous gambling network.(17) Marcello and other associates also gained control of the two best known gambling casinos in the New Or- leans area, the Beverly Club and New Southport Club; the Beverly Club brought Marcello into partnership with the syndicate financier, Meyer Lansky. (28) (306) By the late 1950’s, the Nola Printing Co., of New Orleans, a gambling wire service controlled by the Marcello interests, was serving bookmakers and relay centers throughout the State of Louisiana, as well as areas as diverse as Chicago, Houston, Miami, Hot Springs, Indianapolis and Detroit and cities in Alabama and Mississippi. (79) (307) In a statement prepared for the House Judiciary Committee in 1970, Kohn outlined the continuing expansion of Marcello’s hold- ings during the 1940’s and 1950’s: Marcello and his growing organization developed their capital or bankroll through extensive gambling, including casinos, slot machines, pinball, handbooks, layoff, football pools, dice, card games, roulette and bingo; also narcotics, prostitution, extortion, clipjoint operations, B-drinking, mar- keting stolen goods, robberies, burglaries, and thefts. Their criminal enterprise required, and had, corrupt collusion of public officials at every critical level including police, sheriffs, justices of the peace, prosecutors, mayors, governors, judges, councilmen, licensing authorities, State legislators, and at least one Member of Congress (20) . (308) When Marcello appeared as a witness before the Kefauver committee on January 25, 1951, he invoked the fifth amendment and | refused to respond to questioning on his organized crime activities. (27) Subsequently convicted of contempt of Congress for refusing to re- } spond to the directions of the chair, Marcello was later successful in having his conviction overturned. In its final report, the Kefauver j committee concluded that Marcello’s domination of organized crime In Louisiana had come about in large part due to the “personal enrich- ment of sheriffs, marshals, and other law enforcement officials” who } Teceived payoffs for “their failure to enforce gambling laws and other ‘statutes relating to vice.”(22) The Kefauver report further noted } that “In every line of inquiry, the committee found that the trail of } Carlos Marcello.” (23) | } (809) The Kefauver report also raised the question of why Marcello, }who “has never become a citizen,” “had not been deported.” (24) 1 (310) In early 1953, partly as a result of the national attention he Teceived from the Kefauver committee investigation, Marcello finally ‘became the subject of deportation proceedings; these proceedings con- tinued for over 25 years and were still being conducted in 1979. (25) Federal officials have noted that Marcello has expended more legal Tesources in his two and a half decade fight against deportation than m any other such case in American history. 64 n, (311) Inthe years immediately following the Kefauver investigatio as ntly decide d to try to escape his public image Marcello appare Commission Louisiana’s “rackets boss.” As the New Orleans Crime noted, he took several steps to that end: Not until Carlos Marcello became a subject of deporta- tion . . . did he start publicly conducting himself in a man- . ner intended to substantiate his claim that he was a legitimate | businessman. But this was contrived public relations having little relationship to fact. He continued to direct his under- world government and to press further expansion. He became involved in a series of motel transactions involving millions ; of dollars, and land negotiations of even greater worth. But for the most part, he kept his name off the record, using members of his family and trusted lieutenants for that purpose. (26) (312) Marcello did not attend the national Mafia “conference” at Apalachin, N.Y., of November 14, 1957. Instead, he sent his brother Joseph, the family’s underboss, as his personal representative. When the State police discovered the gathering, Joe Marcello was one of those identified as having attended, along with Vito Genovese, Santos Trafficante, Carlo Gambino, Joe Bonanno, Sam Giancana, Russell Bufalino, and Gerardo Catena. Joe Marcello, however, was able to evade arresting officers and escaped from the scene along with Sam Giancana and Carmine Galente. (27) (313) Carlos Marcello was called to testify before the McClellan committee on March 24, 1959, during the committee’s extended investi- gation of labor racketeering and organized crime. Serving as chief counsel to the committee was Robert F. Kennedy; his brother, Senator John F. Kennedy, was a member of the committee. In response to committee questioning, Marcello again invoked the fifth amendment in | refusing to answer any questions relating to his background, activi- ties, and associates. (28) (314) At the conclusion of Marcello’s appearance before the com- mittee, Senator Sam Ervin of North Carolina requested of the Chair permission to ask the New Orleans underworld leader one final ques- tion: “I would like to know how you managed to stay in the United States for 5 years, 9 months, and 24 days after you were found ordered | deported as an undesirable person.”(29) Marcello’s response to the question—“T wouldn’t know”—provoked Ervin to state that “the | American people’s patience ought to run out on this” and that “those who have no claim to any right to remain in America, who come here and prey like leeches upon law-abiding people * * * ought to be re- | moved from this country.” (30) Senator Karl Mundt joined in Ervin’s > denunciation, urging prompt action by the Attorney General, and Senator Carl Curtis further remarked to Marcello that “I think you ought to pack up your bags and voluntarily depart.” (37) (315) By the early 1960’s Carlos Marcello was widely recognized as } one of the 10 most powerful Mafia leaders in the United States; he was a La Cosa Nostra boss whose businesslike approach, political influence, and power were particularly respected within the national underworld. } His 30-year record of advancement in the organized crime hierarchy, together with his influence in Louisiana and neighboring States, } 65 secured a position of special respect for him among his syndicate peers. (216) It was this same record of underworld achievement, as will iscussed later, that also led to Carlos Marcello’s becoming a special be target of investigation by the Department of Justice while John F. Kennedy was President and Robert F, Kennedy, Attorney General. (317) In February 1964, the Saturday Evening Post reported addi- tional information about the growth of Marcello’s criminal enterprises, disclosing figures prepared by the New Orleans Crime Commission. Of particular note was the prominent role which the New Orleans Mafia had come to assume under Marcello’s direction by 1963: One of the things that distinguishes this branch is its talent at high finance. So adept has it become at handling large sums of money—both for itself and for the national organization— that it is sometimes called the Wall Street of Cosa Nostra. Its annual income runs to $1,114,000,000, making it by far the State’s largest industry, according to * * * the metropolitan crime commission * * * The sum is all the more remarkable in that it compares with the estimated $2 billion racketeer take in Chicago and environs, and area with more than five times the population of metropolitan New Orleans. (32) (318) The crime commission had estimated that the Marcello con- ‘rolled syndicate generated at least $500 million annually from illegal zambling; $400 million from diverse “Jegitimate interests” in the ields of transportation, finance, housing, and service industries; $100 nillion from illegal activities in over 1,500 syndicate-connected. bars ind taverns; $8 million from professional burglaries and holdups; $6 nillion from prostitution; and another $100 million in the form of inderpayment of taxes. (33) (819) The size of the Marcello organization’s annual income is sig- uficant in the context of the reported national income of organized ‘rime. Former Attorney General Ramsey Clark has noted that the fost conservative estimates indicate that “the profits for organized Time [are] comparable to those of the 10 largest industrial corpora- ions combined * * * General Motors, Standard Oil, Ford, General Hlectric, Chrysler, IBM, Mobile Oil, Texaco, Gulf, and U.S. Steel peether. * * *9(3 820) ‘In testimony before the House Select Committee on Crime averal years ago, Marcello provided a significantly different account f his income, stating that he earned “a salary of about $1,600 a month” 3a tomato salesman, traveling to various fruit stands and markets in ae New Orleans area. He also testified that he made a living through arious land investments. (35) 321) While Marcello’s influence and stature as a Mafia leader was ll-known. to both his underworld colleagues and Federal and State athorities by the early 1960’s, another significant aspect of his wreers—his relationship with the Mafia’s national governing commis- on—was not confirmed until several years later. While it was known tat the New Orleans Mafia had been the first branch of the Mafia in Merica (the Sicilian La Cosa Nostra had entered the United States ‘rough the port of New Orleans during the 1880’s) whether it had ‘traordinary special privileges within the national syndicate had long en mystery. During the late 1960’s, the FBI learned new and sub- 66: ion. Sensitive Bureau stantive information regarding its unique positobtained from a highly © reports on La Cosa Nostra set forth the detai ls wing: reliable source. Among them were the follo has now * * * he learned that the first “family” of what become known as La Cosa Nostra (LCN) came from Sicily New Orlea ns * * * the source noted that inas- and settled in subse quent much as this “family” was the prede cesso r of all and esteem, “families,” it has been afforded the highest respect “family” and becau se of its exalt ed positi on, the New Orlea ns “Com- could make decisions on its own without going to the mission.” (36) ly” * * * the source learned that the New Orleans “fami tting new could have, on its own, “opened the books,” [admi members into the organization] but becaus e of the tact and lo, he sough t “Comm issio n” ap- diplomacy of Carlos Marcel n” proval in makin g new “soldi ers,” which the “Comm issio naturally granted * * *.(37) (322) Aaron Kohn believed that Marcello’s underworld syndicatee had “a more than autonomous combination of circumstances becaus lly of the remoteness of New Orleans” (37) and thus enjoyed an unusua dent relatio nship with the ruling commiss ion of the Mafia. (38) indepen Patrick Collins, an FBI agent who investigated the Marcello organi- ng zation during the late 1960’s, expressed a similar view regardithe Marcello’s relationship with the underworld commiss ion. He told committee that the New Orleans Mafia family “was unique among all the mobs” (39) in that it “didn’t have to consult the commission in the same way as the other families did; there was a unique independence of sorts.”(40) Collins said further that “the commission wouldn’t question Marcello about making new members. He was not subject to the necessity of clearing such things with the commission, like the other families were.” (41) In addition Marcello “is probably the single most respected boss among all of the others” in La Cosa Nostra and “has been for years.” (42) (323) In late 1966, Marcello’s status in organized crime was under- scored when he was arrested in New York along with Carlo Gambino, then the Mafia’s reported “boss of all bosses” at a summit meeting of La Cosa Nostra leaders.(43) On September 22, 1966, New York police arrested. those two, Santos Trafficante, Joe Colombo, Thomas Eboli, Mike Miranda and several others at the La Stella restaurant on Long Island; this mob gathering was quickly dubbed by the newspapers “the Little Apalachin” conference.(44) While authorities came to be- lieve that the La Stella “luncheon” was actually a pro forma gatherin following a more serious meeting (probably of the night before), th assemblage has never been fully explained. (45) In his testimony befo the committee, Marcello stated there had been no substance to th gathering :“We just walked in. When we walked in we got arrested We didn’t have time to eat or talk.”(46) None of those arrested we convicted of a crime. The seating arrangement was as follows: 67 Seating Arrangement at La Stella "September 22, 1966 Mike Miranda = Joseph Columbo Carlo Gambino Carlos Marcello Tommy Eboli re Santo Trafficante, Jr. Dominick Alongi Anthony Carolla Joseph Marcello, Jr. Frank Gagliano Aniello Dellacroce | pes Joseph N. Galio Anthony Carillo 68 (324) ight days after the La Stella arrests, upon his return to New Orleans International Airport, Marcello committed the only Federal offense for which he has been tried and convicted in recent times. On September 30, 1966, as he made his way through the crowd of newsmen and spectators who had gathered to watch his return, Marcello had a verbal exchange with a man in the crowd who he believed was imped- ing his way.(47) Shouting “I’m the boss here !, Marcello took a wild swing with his fist at the man.(48) The man turned out to be FBI © the Special Agent Patrick Collins. (49) Arrested by FBI agents on following day and charged with assault, Marcello was eventuall y tried in Laredo, Tex. The trial resulted in a hung jury (the New Orleans Crime Commission subsequently conclude that “There were substantial reasons to suspect jury tampering had occurred.”’).(50) sa (325) Under the vigorous direction of the New Orleans strike force, Marcello was retried and subsequently convicted in Houston, Tex., on August 9, 1968.(51) Originally sentenced to 2 years in Federal prison, Marcello served less than 6 months, he was released on March 12, 1971. As the New Orleans Crime Commission noted at the time, the large number of prestigious individuals who sought to intercede on his behalf, urging clemency, further underscored the depth of his influence in Louisiana. (52) (326) During the late 1960’s and early 1970’s, Marcello and his organized crime activities were the subject of renewed public attention. He was referred to by the chief of police in Youngstown, Ohio, as “the archetype of the devious pattern of the Mafiosi.” (52) On September 1, 1967, Life magazine also identified Marcello as one of the “handful” of men who controlled organized crime throughout the Nation. (54) In a special investigative report, the magazine reported that Marcello was personally directing a national La Cosa Nostra scheme to secure the release of Teamster leader James R. Hoffa from Federal prison through attempts to bribe the former chief prosecution witness against him to recant his testimony.(55) Life said that various key Mafia leaders in the east had given the alleged free-Hoffa assignment to Marcello, along with personal pledges of between $1 to $2 million to effect the plan.(56) (The effort was to fail.) In its following issue, Life went on to portray Marcello as “King Thug of Louisiana,” re- porting that he was one of the State’s wealthiest men and “the lord of one of the richest and most corrupt criminal fiefdoms in the land.” (57) (327) In August 1969, Look magazine reported on Marcello’s polit- ical and criminal influence in the Gulf States region. (58) (328) On March 1, 1970, UPI stated that there were indications that Marcello might be preparing to leave the United States, rather thar submit to the forthcoming imprisonment growing out of his convic- tion for assaulting the FBI agent.(59) According to the story, Marq cello’s attorney, G. Wray Gill, had denied the rumor, stating, “This is where Marcello wants to be and nobody can put Marcello out of thef country unless they put a shotgun to his head.” (60) On March 2, amid} television reports in New Orleans that Marcello would in fact flee thd country, the New Orleans States-Item reported that there was no firn} evidence to support the rumors.(67) In fact, Marcello never did leavq the country. 69 (3829) In its April 10, 1970 issue, Life its investigation of Marcello of 3 years earliepublished a followup to cello, now 60, not only continues to dominater, concluding that “Mar- vastly richer each year at public expense.” (62) [Louisiana] but grows various aie relationships between Marcello The magazine detailed and key State officials Federal officials had come to view Marcello as the ential organized crime figure in the Nation outsid single most influ- e (330) In the fall of 1970, the Wall Street Journ of New York.(65) Ltmes published further accounts of Marcello’s al and Los Angeles more with the 72mes reporting that his criminal organizati recent activities, on had expanded (331) Appearing before the House Select Commi June of 1972, Marcello repeated his claims that hettee on Crime in was not involved with organized crime. He testified that he did not know what a racketeer MARCELLO: A KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION TARGET Veportation efforts 1333) Carlos Marcello and his syndicate became }f investigation by the Department of Justice duringa primary target }dministration. Attorney General Robert F. Kenne the Kennedy dy yne of the most powerful and threatening Mafia leader viewed him as )nd ordered that the Justice Department focus on s in the Nation }ther figures such as Teamsters president Hoffa andhim, along with |vader Sam Giancana. (74) Chicago Mafia 334) In Marcello’s case, the intent of the Kennedy admini 74s made known even before Inauguration Day, January strati 20, on n December 28, 1960, the New Orleans States-Item report 1961. ‘torney General-designate Kennedy was planning ed that zainst Marcello.(75) An FBI report from that period specifi c actions Vv noted: On January 12, 1961, a [source] advised that Carlos cello is extremely apprehensive and upset and has Mar- since the 70 New Orleans States-Item newspaper on December 28, 1960 published a news story reporting that .. . Robert F. Kennedy stated he would expedite the deportation proceedings pending against Marcello after Kennedy takes office in January 1961.(76) (335) The Bureau’s La Cosa Nostra file for 1961 noted that Marcello flew to Washington, D.C., shortly after the inauguration of President Kennedy and was in touch with a number of political and business associates.(77) While there, he placed a telephone call to the office of at least one Congressman. (78) (336) Bureau records further indicate that Marcello initiated vari- ous efforts to forestall or prevent the anticipated prompt deportation action. An FBI report noted that Marcello may have tried a circuitous approach.(79) Through a source, the Bureau learned of another Mafia leader’s account of how Marcello had reportedly proceeded. (80) Philadelphia underworld leader Angelo Bruno discussed a specific attempt by Marcello to forestall an action by the immigration au- thorities.(8/) According to the Philadelphia underworld leader Marcello had enlisted his close Mafia associate, Santos Trafii- cante of Florida, in the reported plan.(82) Traflicante in turn con- tacted Frank Sinatra to have the singer use his friendship with the Kennedy family on Marcello’s behalf. (83) This effort met with failure and may even have resulted in intensified Federal efforts against Marcello. (84) (337) In response to Attorney General Kennedy’s strong interest in Marcello, the New Orleans FBI office prepared a report on him and his Mafia associates for FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover on February 13, 1961.(85) A report prepared under the direction of special | Agent Regis Kennedy, the New Orleans office stated that “Continued investigation of Carlos Marcello since December 1957, has failed to develop vulnerable area wherein Marcello may be in violation of stat- utes within the FBI’s jurisdiction.” (86) This assessment by the New Orleans office illustrated why Justice Department and other law en- forcement officials viewed as less than satisfactory its performance prior to the mid-1960’s in investigating organized crime. (338) While the committee carefully examined numerous areas of information pertaining to the proficiency of the FBI in investigating organized crime during the 1950’s and early 1960’s and found various areas in which Bureau performance was significantly deficient, the city of New Orleans was a special case. The indications are that the Bureau’s limited work on the Marcello case may have been attribut-| able to a disturbing attitude on the part of the senior agent who] supervised the case, Regis Kennedy. He had been in charge of the} Bureaw’s work on Marcello and the New Orleans Mafia for years and also directed much of the FBI investigation in that city of President} Kennedy’s assassination. In an interview with the committee several months before his death in 1978, Kennedy had stated that he believed] Marcello was not engaged in any organized crime activities or othe illegal actions during the period from 1959 until at least 1963. (87)h He also stated that he did not believe Marcello was a significant orga | nized crime figure and did not believe that he was currently involvec in criminal enterprises. (88) 71 (339) Kennedy further informed the committee that he believed Marcello would “stay away” from any improper activi ty did earn his living as a tomato salesman and real estate and in reality In response to the question of why Marcello had been investor. (89) consistently iden- tified as one of the Nation’s most powerful Mafia leader authorities for over 20 years, Kennedy stated that s by Federal the New Orleans FBI office did not know why Marcello was so identified.( ther stated that the New Orleans office had simply respon90) He fur- ded to peri- odic directives from Washington instructing it to monito but had not selected him from investigative attention r Marcello, (340) In November 1978, the managing director on its own. (91) of the New Orleans Crime Commission, Aaron Kohn, testified that agent prising views about Carlos Marcello were well-known Kennedy’s sur- that period.(92) While Kennedy had served the Burea to him during tion in other areas, his attitude toward investigatin u with distinc. crime syndicate in New Orleans was one of hegatig the organized cule ;(93) it was also accompanied by a belief that vism and ridi- Carlos Marcello was not in any way a significant criminal figure. (94) : (341) In an interview with the committee on Novem ber 15, 1978, Kennedy’s successor as the FBI organized crime case agent in New Orleans, Patrick Collins, stated that Kennedy “had taken the Deep South approach to organized crime; it’s up North but it sure here.” (95) Further, Kennedy and other agents “didn’t see isn’t down what he is. It is incredible to think, but they didn’t unders Marcello for tand was a Mafia family down in New Orleans.” (96) While statin that this had a high regard for Kennedy’s other work, Collins said g that he he Kennedy’s attitude was one of “boredom” over having to file believed reports on Marcello and organized crime. (97) periodic (342) While the New Orleans FBI office's assessment of Marcel | his activities did not significantly contribute to the Federa lo and against him, other agencies were pressing the drive in a more l efforts tive way. On March 3, 1961, General J oseph Swing of the Immigr substan- and Naturalization Service advised the FBI that: ation . .. the Attorney General had been emphasizing .. . the importance of taking prompt action to deport notorio us hoodlums. In this connection, the Marcello case is of particu lar interest. A final order of deportation has been entered - against Marcello but this fact is being held in strictes t confidence. (98) 843) On the afternoon of April 4, 1961, 8 years after he was ordered eported, Carlos Marcello was finally ejected from the United \s he walked into the INS office in New Orleans for his regular States. ointment to report as an alien, he was arrested and ap- handcuffed by NS officials. (99) He was then rushed to the New Orleans airport wn to Guatemala. (100) Marcello’s attorneys denounced the deporta and ton later that day, terming it “cruel and uncivilized,” and - noted that aeir client had not been allowed to telephone his attorney or see ) ife. (707) his } 1344) On the following day, April 5, 1961, Attorney General Robert }. Kennedy stated that “Marcello’s deportation was in strict accord- 4ce with the law.” (202) Justice Department officials noted that while 72 Marcello had not been allowed to call an attorney, one of his attorneys was present with him at the time, and that INS officials had unsuccess- fully tried to bring Mrs. Marcello to the airport to meet him. (103) The officials noted that special security precautions had been taken to insure against Marcello’s escape prior to actual deportation (104) because he had disappeared several times in the past when deportation proceedings were reaching critical junctures. (105) (As will be seen, such precautions were unable to prevent Marcello’s return to the country 2 months later.) (345) In testimony before the committee on January 11, 1978, Mar- cello stated that he had not been surprised that Attorney General Kennedy had decided to press his deportation. (106) He noted, that “he [Kennedy] said * * * he would see that I be deported just as soon as he got in office. Well, he got in office January 20 * * * and April the 4th he deported me.” (07) (346) Ashe had in the past on several occasions, Marcello referred to his 1961 deportation as an illegal “kidnaping.” (108) In his appear- ance before the committee, he testified that “two marshals put the hand- cuffs on me and they told me that I was being kidnaped and being brought to Guatemala, which they did, and in 30 minutes time I was in | the plane.”(109) He further testified that “they dumped me off in ; Guatemala, and I asked them, let me use the phone to call my wife, let , me get my clothes, something they wouldn’t hear about. They just snatched me and that is it, actually kidnaped me.” (110) (347) On April 10, 1961, 6 days after he was deported, the Internal Revenue Service filed a $835,396 tax lien against Marcello and his wife.(//1) On April 23, news reports disclosed that Marcello was being held in custody by Guatemalan authorities in connection with what were reported to be false citizenship papers he had presented on arrival | there April 6.(172) On May 4, Guatemalan President Miguel Fuentes ordered that Marcello be expelled; he was driven to and released at the El Salvador border late that night. (113) | (348) On May 19, 1961, a Federal court in Washington ruled that Marcello’s deportation was fully valid and denied a motion by his attorneys that it be declared illegal.(774) With that ruling, Marcello’s } reentry to the country was prohibited. (115) (349) Less than 2 weeks later, Marcello secretly gained entry into the } United States. On June 2, 1961, confirming widespread rumors that their client had somehow slipped back in, Marcello’s attorneys an- nounced he had returned and was in hiding.(1/6) Federal investi- — gators have never been able to establish in detail his means of entry. (350) On June 5, 1961, after Attorney General Kennedy dispatched 20 Federal agents to Shreveport, La., to conduct a search for Marcello, § the Louisiana crime leader voluntarily surrendered in New Orleans and was ordered held in an alien detention center at McAllen, Tex.(117) On June 8, a Federal grand jury indicted him for illegal reentry ;(118) on July 11, the INS ruled he was an undesirable alien and once again ordered him deported. (719) , (351) On June 16, 1961, the FBI received a report that a U.S. Sen- ator from Louisiana might have sought to intervene on Marcello’s} behalf.(220) This Senator had reportedly received “financial aid from | Marcello” in the past and was sponsoring a Louisiana official for a key} INS position from which assistance might be rendered. (721). | (352) In July 1961, the Justice Department’s organized crime section} with the assistance of codebreaking specialists of the FBI, made ar | effort to decode what was believed to be a secret communication involv | ino Marcello and an associate.(/22) While senior aides to Attorney 73 General Kennedy sought to decipher the reported Marcello message, the FBI Laboratory concluded that: Because of the brevity of the text, no determination the meaning of the possible code * * * could be made. as to possible, however, that the names in the text * * * represIt is double meaning, wherein certain words are given ent arbitrary meanings by the correspondents. (123) (353) While the various court actions and appeal deportation and illegal reentry were continuing in thes on Marcello’s fall was again called before the McClellan committee to testif of 1961, he nized crime gambling activities in Louisiana, (124) In y about orga- mittee questions Marcello invoked the fifth amend response to com- ment, refusing to provide any information other than his name and alleged place of irth. (125) (354) On October 30, 1961, Attorney General Kenne the indictment of Marcello by a Federal grand jury in dy announced charges of conspiracy in falsifying a Guatemalan birthNew Orleans on committing perjury.(126) Marcello’s brother, Josep certificate and h was also charged in the alleged falsification of the birth certificate. (127) (355) On December 20, 1961, with Marcello free on the five-member Board of Immigration Appeals uphela $10,000 bond, tion order against Marcello, denying another appeal d the deporta- torneys that it be declared invalid. (128) by Marcello at- | (356) In October 1962, a Bureau of Narcotics report cello as “one of the Nation’s leading racketeers” described Mar- was “currently under intensive investigation and noted that he Service Intelligence Division for tax fraud.”(12 by the Internal Revenue noted that Marcello was then instituting a 9) The report also further legal step to fore- stall deportation. (730) Marcello’s attorneys had an effort to set aside his Federal conviction on filed a legal writ in 24 years earlier.(137) This conviction was narcot ics charges from one the ongoing deportation proceedings against him. of the key factors in (357) On October 31, 1962, a Federal court ruled (132) attempt to have the 1938 drug conviction against Marcello’s nullified. (133) The court said that his claim that he had not had counsel guilty to the narcotics charge on October 29, present when he pled 1938, was false,(134) as was his claim that he had not known of his rights an attorney. (135) and could not afford Increased Federal Pressure (358) On February 15, 1963, in apparent respo *ral Kennedy’s request for continuing action nse to Attorney Gen- against Marcello, FBI (Ce that there was a possi- of the early 1960’s. The committee believed recorded some discus- bility that electronic surveillance might have sinat ion. In evalu ating various assessments sion of the Kennedy assas 1960’s , the committee by organized crime specialists during the early commission of crimi- ident ifyin g the had noted that the likelihood of that period varied with nal acts by organized crime figures during s. (238) those figure the scope of electronic surveillance of elect ronic surveillance exam inin g the vario us (360) After carefully the committee found , programs in effect during the early 1960’s such coverage during been subje ct to that Carlos Marcello had never had not been prior in- that period. FBI files indicate that while there Marcello’s case, the terest in using such investigative techn iques in tute elect ronic surve illan ce during the pe- Bureau did attempt to insti attempts were made to riod of 1963 and 1964.(139) Two unsuccessful res attri butab le in all likelihood to affect. such surveillance,(40) failu empl oyed by Marce llo at the various locations from the security system which he operated. (14/) coordinated Bureau (361): Al Staffeld, the former FBI official who , gave the com- activities in the organized crime field in this period ng in electronic mittee his view—that the FBI “had virtua lly nothi ’t effectuate it. surveillance on Marcello and his guys. We just couldn work back then. | With Marcello, you’ve got the one big excep tion in our was too smart.” There was just no way of penetrating that area. He apparently con- (142) The inability to effect surveillance of Marce llo u officials were tinued, as FBI files indicate that as late as 1967 Burea subject of elec- prepared to testif y that Marce llo had never been the tronic surveillance. (743) t in the continu- (362) Attorney General Kennedy’s personal interes lo was further evi- ing Justice Department investigation of Marcel receiv ed a letter which he in turn ordered denced in April 1963. He had rd to Hoover the chief of the Crimin al Divisi on, Jack Miller , to forwa The letter was from a citizen claim- for his personal attention.(144) a friend by ing to have knowl edge of a severe beatin g inflict ed upon ey Genera l reques ted imme- lieutenants of Marcello.(145) The Attorn diate Bureau attention to the matter . se to an (363) On May 27, 1963, the U.S. Supreme Court, in responthe Mar- appeal filed by Marcello’s attorn eys,(1 46) declin ed to review of the U.S. cello deportation action and upheld the earlier decision Circuit Court of Appeals. (147) Orleans (364) On November 4, 1963, Marcello went on trial in New alleged falsi- on Federal charges of conspiracy in connect ion with his alan birth certifi cate.(1 48) Eighte en days later, fication of a Guatem nt Ken- on November 22, 1963, he was acquitted. The news of Preside nedy’s murder in Dallas reached the New Orleans courtroom shortly before the verdict was announced. (149). (365) On July 22, 1964, the Supreme Court rejected another appeal by Marcello to have his 1938 narcotics conviction set aside, upholding | the rulings of various lower courts. (150) im (366) On October 6, 1964, Marcello and an associate were indictedthat Federal court on charges of having bribed a member of the jury had acquitted Marcello on November 22, 1963. (151 ) The indictment alleged that Marcello and his lieutenants had made two secret pay- 1S. mehts to a juror with “the intent to influence his and decision” in the case. (152) The indictment furthe action, vote, opinion November 1963, Marcello had endeavored “to influe r charged that in impede” the prosecution “by requesting the murde nce, obstruct, and cipal witness” for the Government, Carl Noll. r of * * * prin- (153) | (367) Marcello surrendered at the Federal sequently freed on a $100,000 bond on Octobercourt house and was sub- 8, after the U.S. attor- hey noted that a search by 10 FBI agents had locating him the day before. (154) The charge been unsuccessful in of having requested the murder of the chief prosecution witness in the dropped, following the reported unwillingness of 1963 case was later to the incident. Marcello was acquitted by that person to testify a jury of the other charges. (155) (368) Efforts to deport Marcello were still under late 1975, Marcello’s attorneys had filed an appea way in 1979. In l for suspension of his deportation order, based on “good moral chara previous 10 years.(/56) Another Marcello appeal cter” during the was pending in the U.S. district court in New Orleans in 1978. (157) (369) While INS officials point out the peculiar rent deportation process in the United States, which nature of the cur- limits on the number and frequency of appeals and sets no practical person may initiate to forestall deportation, anotheother legal steps a central to Marcello’s continued presence in the Unite r factor has been tion officials note that before the final step of depor d States. Immigra- tation can be taken, ALLEGED ASSASSINATION THREAT BY MARCELLO (870) As part of its investigation, the commi lished account of what was alleged to have ttee examined a pub- Carlos Marcello in late 1962 against the been a threat made by and his brother, Robert, the Attorney Gener life of Presi dent Kennedy first set. forth publicly in a book on organal. The information was 1969, “The Grim Reapers,” by Ed Reid.(160) ized crime published in of the Las Vegas Sun, was a writer on organ Reid, a former editor thor, with Ovid Demaris, of “The Green ized crime and the co- F elt Jungle,” published n 1963. (871) In a lengthy chapter on the New Orlea arcello, Reid wrote of an alleged private meetins Mafia and Carlos ind two or more men sometime in Septembe ng between Marcello vas based on interviews he had conducted r 1962. (167) His account 1e had attended the meeting. (162) with a man who alleged 76 the pressure laxation, the dialog turned to serious matters, includingMafia brother- law enforcement agencies were bringi ng to bear on the ) hood” as a result of the Kennedy administration. (166 the discussion: (373) Reid’s book contained the following account of It was then that Carlos’ voice lost its softness, and his words U.S. were bitten off and spit out when mention was made ofon the Attorney General Robert Kenned y, who was still trail of Marcello. “Livarsi na petra di la scarpa!” Carlos shrilled the Mafia cry of revenge: “Take the stone out of my shoe!” “Don’t worry about that little Bobby son of a bitch,” he shouted. “He’s going to be taken care of i? a- Ever since Robert Kennedy had arranged for his deportthe had wanted reveng e. But as tion to Guatemala, Carlos top Gov- subsequent conversation, which was reported to two ernment investigators by one of the partic ipants and later to this author , showed , he knew that to rid himsel f of Robert Kennedy he would first have to remove the President. Any by killer of the Attorney General would be hunted down of his brother; the death of the President would seal the fate his Attorney General. (167) % * * * * * # No one at the meeting had any doubt about Marcello’s in- - tentions when he abruptly arose from the table. Marcello did not joke about such things. In any case, the matter had gone beyond mere “business” ;it had become an affair of hon- - or, a Sicilian vendetta. Moreover, the conversation at Church ill Farms also made clear that Marcello had begun to plan a move. He had, for example, already thought of using @ “nut” to do the job. Roughly 1 year later President Kennedy was shot in Dallas—2 months after Attorney General Robert Kennedy had announced to the McClellan committee that he was going to expand his war on organized crime. And it is perhaps sig- nificant that privately Robert Kennedy had singled out James Hoffa, Sam Giancana, and Carlos Marcello as being among his chief targets. (168) (374) In an interview with the committee, Reid said that his in- formant stated that Marcello seemed to be “very serious” as he spoke of planning to assassinate President Kennedy.(169) He further told the committee that while his informant had had great doubts at the time as to whether Marcello could or would have the President assassinated, immediately after the assassination occurred, he came to believe that Marcello was in fact the perpetrator. (170) (375) Reid informed the committee that he believed his informant, 9 man with underworld associations, was credible and trustworthy (171) and had in fact provided “unusually reliable” information about organized crime on past occasions, including during the writin of “The Green Felt Jungle.”(/72) Based on past association aa contacts with the informant, Reid was “strongly inclined to believe his account of the Marcello meeting,”(/73) although he was “not sure what it all means in the final analysis.” (74) 77 FBI inwestigation of the allegations (376) In early May 1967 » over a year and published, senior officials of the FBT a half before the book was learned of the account of the alleged meeting.(775) According to an FBI 1967, from Assistant Director Alex Rose memorandum of May 15, n to Assistant Director Cartha DeLoach, the Bureau’s Los Angeles office had by Reid.(776) The memorandum stated that been contacted on M ay 6 several books concerning the hoodlum eleme Reid, “who has written nt,” had contacted the Los Angeles office and had “indicated he had info Roselli.”(177) The memorandum further state rmation concerning John interviewed, he showed his manuscript to d that when Reid was the Bureau’s Los Angeles agents.(/78) The memorandum gave the follo wing account of Reid’s information: Reid refers to Carlos Marcello and indic meeting on September 11, 1963 at Churchillated there was a Farms, outside New Orleans, La., attended by several peopl cello and Reid’s informant. Marcello was e including Mar- said that in order to get Bobby Kennedy theyalleged to have get the President, and they could not kill would have to Bobby because the President would use the Army and the Marin The result of killing the President would es to get them. his power as Attorney General becaucause Bobby to lose President. (179) se of the New . (877) While the Bureau memorandum who read that section of Reid’s manuscript indic ates that the agents ing in September 1963, the actual account belie ved it placed the meet- stated that the meeting had occurred in published by Reid in 1969 his committee interview, Reid said that he had September 1962.(780) In meeting was in September 1962”(787) becau “always stated that the “clearly recalled” the time of the meeting se his informant had Louisiana” that month. (182) and had been “traveling in (378) The Bureau memorandum went informed the Los Angeles agents that “a on to state that Reid had person who attended this alleged meeting was interviewed by agents and furnished them the information.” (783) of our Los Angeles office that “several days” after the informant had Further, Reid believed ‘Marcello, he “was interviewed concerning atten ded the meeting with the Billie Sol Estes case, at which time he allegedly related to our agents what he heard at Churchill Farms.” (184) (379) The memorandum goes on to note that a review of FBI files on Reid’s informant, whose name was Edward Becker, showed he had vhis interview, Marcello was mentioned * * ess proposition * * * no mention was * in connection with a busi- Aennedy or President Kennedy, or any made of” Attorney General 880) The memorandum said that the threat against them. (186) teid’s manuscript on the meeting told theagents who read the part of author that Becker had not nformed the Bureau of the alleged Marce 10n.(787) In fact, “It is noted Kdward llo discussion of assassina- nvestigator in Los Angeles who in the Nicholas Becker is a private ‘ing unreliable and known to misreprese past has had a reputation of nt facts.” (188) ; 78 ’ ng that Reid’s offer to (381) The memorandum concluded by stati a figure John Roselli provide the Bureau with informatio n about Mafi had been declined : to trade in- In connection with John Roselli, Reid wanted He men- him, which offer was refuse d. formation concerning n with attor- tioned he was conce rned with Rosell i’s assoc iatio ngton , D.C. As you recall , Mor- ney Edward Morgan of Washi of the White gan was previ ously inter viewe d at the reque st possession re- House concerning alleged information in his connecting garding the assassinatio n. Also, Rosell i was the en CLA and Rober t Mahe u who was hired by the Link betwe sinat ed. to have Castr o assas CIA to approach Sam Giancana (189) ors Rosen and (382) The memorandum went to Assistant Direct u, including DeLoach, and to the most senior officia ls in the Burea of his deputies, and Assistant Director William Sullivan and several Division, all of ‘Assistant Director James Gales of the Inspec tion respon sibili ty for the FBI’s invest igatio n of Presi- whom had direct kind to follow dent Kennedy’s murder.(190) No instru ctions of any regar ding Marcel lo, the allege d assass ination up on the information . (197) ntly discussion, and the informant, were issued subseque a handwritten (383) The only directive regarding the matter was “We should notation made on the memor andum by DeLoa ch :(192) diseretly identify the publisher” of the Reid book. (193) May 17, 1967, the (384) Two days later, in an FBI memorandum of Special Agent in Charge (SAC) of the Los Angel es office reported some additional information to Hoove r.(19 4) In the memorandum, the Los Angele s office set forth some allege d inform ation it had learned claime d to have heard “state- regarding Becker, who, the memo noted, 11, 1963, made by Carlos Marcel lo on Septe mber ments supposedly y.” (195) concerning the pending assassination of Presid ent Kenned 1 day after the Burea u first learne d of the The FBI memo stated that ation regard- Reid inform ation, its Los Angele s office receiv ed inform reputa- ing Edward Becker which was allegedly damaging to hishad been tion.(196) Accor ding to the inform ation, Sidney Korsh ak discussing Becker and: * * * Korshak inquired as to who Ed Becker was and advised that Becker was trying to shake down some of - Korshak’s friends for money by claiming he is the collabo rator with Reid and that for money he could keep the names of these people out of the book. (197) fur- (385) The memorandum also stated that Sidney Korshak had ther stated that “Becker was a no-goo d shaked own artist,” (198) infor- mation which in turn became known to the Bureau. (199) the | (386) The memorandum did not mention the background of ons | person who was supplyi ng the negativ e informa tion and allegati § about Becker—Sidney Korshak, He was a Los Angeles labor lawyer, to as an “informant,” it should be noted that *Where Becker is referred a Federal law enforcement this applies to his relationship to Reid and not to agency. 79 © who has been alleged to have underworld California, Las Vegas, and New York.(200) assoc The iations in Chicago, identified him as a continuing subject of nume Bureau’s own files investigations, an associate of reputed Chicagorous organized crime Mafia executioners Gus Alex and Murray “The Camel” Humphreys, (207) and a business asso- ciate of James R. Hoffa and Paul Dorfman. four-part investigative series in 197 6, the New (202 ) In an extensive York Times noted that a 1968 Justice Department report had described “the most significant link in the relationship betweKorshak as perhaps cate, politics, labor, and management.” en the crime syndi- (203) The Times further re- ported that at a meeting in April 1976, senior offici Department’s Organized Crime Division had “reacals of the Justice that Mr. Korshak was one of the five most power hed a consensus ful members of the underworld.” (204 (387) On June 5, 1967, in another memorandum to the Los Angeles FBI office reported that the person Director Hoover, vided the derogatory information on Becker had contac who had pro- May 26 in an effort to “discredit” Becker's infor ted Reid on mation about Mar- cello.(205) This person had provided Reid with the infor Becker ‘which had derived from Korshak. (206) The mation about went on to state that “The purpose [of this person] memorandum was to discredit Becker to Reid in order that the Carlos Marcello incide ‘deleted from the book by Reid. (207) nt would be (388) On May 31, 1967 , according to the same memor cial agent of the Los Angeles office was involved in a andum, a spe- visit home(208) in a further effort to persuade him of Becker to Reid’s untrustworthiness. (209) During this visit: ’s alleged It was again pointed out to Reid that Becker had interviewed by Bureau agents in November 1962 concer been ning the Billie Sol Estes case, but had not mentioned the repute conversation or statements allegedly made by Marcel d lo on Septe mber 11, 1963 (almost a year later), at Churchill Farms, New Orleans. (2/0) (389) The Bureau’s possible confusion over the time volved in the matter was further evidenced in the memor periods in- which said that “in November 1962” Becker had “not mentioandum, reputed * * * statements allegedly made by Marcello ned the ber 11, 1963.”(2/7) Again, both Reid and Becker have mainta -on Septem consistently that they made clear that the meeting was in ined 1962, rather than September 1963, (2/2) and that the specifi September c reference in the Reid book stated “September 1962.”(273) Additionally , the Bureau’s own files on Becker (while not containing any refere nces to assassination) clearly indicated that Becker had been interv iewed by agents in November 1962, following a trip through Louisiana that September. (274) Committee investigation of the allegation (390) The committee carefully examined the FBI’s Becker and the Bureau’s contact with him in late 1962.files The relating to Teau reference to Becker appeared in a report of Novemb first Bu- er Tegarding a private investigator working on the Billie Sol 20, 1962, the famous multimillion-dollar fraud investigation of Estes case, the early 80 42, was associated 1960’s.(215) The report noted that Becker, then oil service com- with an investigator being employed by one of the been swind led by Estes. (2/6) Becker was panies that had allegedly swood , Tex., in Brown said to have had first met with the investigator Shrev eport , La., they had travel ed to on September 18, 1962, and that ated with an oil on business on Septe mber 21.(2/ 7) Becke r was associ lo,(2 28) who was allege d to be a geologist in Shreveport, Carl Roppo ciose acquaintance of Carlos Marcel lo. (219) u that “Rop- The report noted that one person had told the Burea sister, and that r is Carlo s Marcel lo’s polo had said that his mothe sed later, Becker Roppollo is the favorite nephew.” (220) As is discus of his, was the informed the committee that Roppo lo, a close friend ng with Marcello man who allegedly set up the September 1962 meeti purpose of seek- and attended the meeting along with Becke r for the ing Marcello’s support for a proposed business ventu re of theirs. (227) r was referr ed to in a secon d FBI report of November (391) Becke and a Dallas d count erfei ting ring 21, 1962, which dealt with an allege This report noted lawyer who repor tedly had knowl edge of it.(22 2) ” by a priva te investiga- that Becker was being used as an “informant extent that he 23) and was assist ing to the tor in the investigation(2 es FBI office began receiving expense money.(224) The Los Angel ng with Becke r had “admi tted that noted that the investigator worki ses on the part of he could be suppo rting a con game for living expen as he had only provi ded Becke r Becker * * * but that he doubted it,” with limited expenses. (225) further that (392) The November 21, 1962, Bureau report noted nal associate with Max Field, a crimi Becker had once been associated ding to the of Mafia leader Joseph Sica of Los Angeles. (226) Accor ng all rumor s he report “It appears that Becker * * * has been feedi (227) has heard plus whatever stories he can fit into the picturde.”by the FBI (393) On November 26, 1962, Becker was interviewe Estes case on in connection with its investigation of the Billie Sol . (228) which Becker was then also working as a private investigator Louisi- Becker told the Bureau of his recent trips to Dallas , Tex., and counter- ana, and informed them of the information he had heard about sed | feiting in Dallas.(229) At that point, Becker also briefly discus Carlos Marcello: He [Becker] advised that on two occasions he has accom- panied Roppolo to New Orleans, where they met with one Carlos Marcello, who is a longtime friend of Roppolo. He advised that Roppolo was to obtain the financing for their promotional business from Marcello. He advised that he knew nothing further about Marcello. (230) of | (394) Becker was briefly mentioned in another Bureau report, ly made u November 27, 1962, which again stated that he alleged “stories” and invented rumors to derive “possible gain” from suc | false information. (231) f (395) Three days later, on Novemb er 30, 1962, another Bureau Sol Estes case made referen ce to Becker’ s trip to | report on the Billie Dallas in September and his work on the case. (232) The report noted that Becker was apparently associated with various show business personalities in Las Vegas.(233) Further, a man who had been 81 acquainted with Becker had referred to him as a “small-time con Roppolo was in fact acquainted with Marce llo, as advised by Becker. (237) The April 11, 1963, report concluded likelihood know the New Orleans Mafia leade that Roppolo did in all r. (238) A source had In- formed the New Orleans office that the Marce lies were quite close at one time as they camello and Roppolo “fami- at approximately the same time and lived from the ‘old country’ as neighbors in New (397) This report further stated that the whether Roppolo himself could secure finan same source doubted cial backing from Mar- cello for a business venture, due to Roppo lo’s alleged reputation as someone “rather shiftless.”(240) Roppolo was lem,” a person who “is always trying to promo regarded as “a prob- te somet (898) While the committee was unable to devel hing.” (247) information regarding the relationship betwe op more specific Roppolo, and Marcello, the committee did en Becke r’s associate, recei ng a closer relationship than was indicated ve information indicat- ‘eport. The New Orleans Crime Commission in the April 1963 FBI , in various analyses and tharts of the Marcello organization, had uillian Roppolo as an associate of Carlos for years been identifying 1oted the reported relationship between Marcello. (242) Aaron Kohn, hat Lillian Roppolo “was considered to be the two families and stated Marcello.” (243) A Crime Commission file something of a courier for hat she had an even closer personal relaton the Roppolos indicates -ddition to the alleged courier and busin ionship with Marcello, in 48 appearance before the committee on ess activities. (244) During Amself brought up his apparent familiaritJ anuary 11, 1978, Marcello € was questioned about his knowledge y with the Roppolos when ounding surname. (245 ) of a person having a similar legations and information he original ly . 1979, told the committee that his acco provided Reid. Becker, 57 ission with Marcello in 1962 “is truthunt of the meeting and dis- ww. I was there.”(246) He maintained ful. It was then and it is Los Angeles—have tried to discredit that “the FBI—their agents ing except investigate the information me. They’ve done every- itly have always said it was not the truth T gave Reid. They appar- Stigated it to arrive at that judgment , but they’ve never in- Willingness to support his truthful .” (247) Becker indicated 00) Becker stated that he was born ness in’ other ways. (248) in California and raised in *w Haven, Conn. (249) His early years blicity work for several San F rancisco of employment had included nightclubs and, subsequently, 82 papers. (250) During later writing a column for two California news rtainment field, managing in the ente years he had done further work g programs for television 1n a singer, as well as writing and producin , am Los Angeles during the early 1950's. (251) he beca me a publi c relat ions man for the Riviera (401) Becker said working closely with Gus Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas in 1959, well-known gambling fig- — Greenbaum,(252) the Rivie ra mana ger and ure who was the victim of a much publi cized underworld killing 1n ~ he “was then traveling in some pretty 1957.(253) Becker stated that est person around.” (254) fast. circles. 1 was certainly not the clean ys out to make a buck,” — He further maintained that while he “was alwa activity.(255) Becker he was never engaged in any significant criminal nal investigations, crimi noted that he had twice become the subject of emea nor charges for (256) the first resulting in his convi ction on misd b photographer with having stolen “around $200” from a nightclu ies at the time and whom he was acquainted. (257) He was in his twent served 60 days in jail. (258) e involved with (402) Becker stated that in 1959 he had also becomlaundermats and two men who were “running a con deal involv ing was an associate stolen credit cards” (259) and that one of the two men the subject of of Los Angeles Mafia leader Josep h Sica.( 260) He was in conju nctio n with the 1959 invest igatio n. (261) an SEC desist order d as a private (403) Becker told the committee that he had worke since, coord inati ng under cover invest iga- investigator during the years on various tive work for corpor ate client s,(262 ) as well as worki ng doing organized crime cases. (263) During the early 1960’s, he was and investigativ e work for Julian Blodge tt, a privat e invest igator former FBI agent. (264) (404) Becker told the committee that he and Roppolo had met with e Marcello in late 1962 to seek his financial backing for an oil additiv close product they were planning to market. (265) Due to Roppolo ’s diffi- relationship with Marcello, the meeting was arranged without culty. (266) (405) Becker stated that he and Roppolo met with Marcello on three and or four occasions in connection with the proposed business deal that Marcello made his comments about Preside nt Kenned y during the first or second meeting.(267) The meetings transpired between Only sometime in September 1962 and roughly January 1963.(268) the three of them had been present during two or three of the meet- been ings, but a Marcello aide named “Liverde,” a barber, had also present once. (269) (406) Becker stated that Marcello had made his remarks about the Kennedy brothers after Becker said something to the effect that “Bob- by Kennedy is really giving you a rough time.” (270) He could not recall the exact words Marcello used in threatening President Ken- nedy, but believed the account in Reid’s book “‘is basically correct.” was (271) Marcello was very angry and had “clearly stated that he going to arrange to have President Kenned y murdere d in some way.” (272) Marcello’s statement had been made in a serious tone and sounded as if he had discussed it previously to some extent. (273) e to Becker commented that Marcello had made some kind of referenc President Kennedy ’s being a dog and Attorne y General Robert Ken- 83 nedy the dog’s tail,(274) and had said “the dog will you only cut off its tail,” but that if the dog’s head keep biting you if were cut off, the dog would die. (275) (407) Becker stated that Marcello also made some to the way in which he allegedly wanted to arran kind of reference ge the President’s murder. (276) Marcello “clearly indicated” that his own must not be identified as the assassins, (277) and that there lieutenants be a necessity to have them use or manipulate someo would thus out the actual crime. (278) ne else to carry (408) Becker said that Marcello’s alleged remar ks about assassinat- ing the President lasted only a few minutes during meeting, which went 1 to 2 hours.(279) Marcello had the course of the cilian phrases during parts of the meeting and had spoken in Si- one point in the discussion of their proposed busine grown angry at ss deal. (280) (409) Becker said that although he and Roppollo met with Marcello on two or three occasions following this meeting, they discussed President Kennedy. (281) (Becker added that never again tive business business deal never came to fruition. (282) ) the oil addi- (410) Becker told the committee that while he believ ed Marcello had been serious when he spoke of wanting to have the sassinated, he did not believe the Mafia leader was capabl Presid ent as- ing it out or had the opportunity to do so.(283) He emphaesized of carry- while he was disturbed by Marcello’s remarks at the that time, grown accustomed to hearing criminal figures make threat he had s against (411) Becker stated that the only error in Reid’s published of the meeting related to the statement that Becker had informaccount ed two Reid may have incorrectly inferred that he told the FBI of the alleged Marcello threat when he was interviewed by agents regarding the vas never interviewed by the FBI about the alleged Marcello meeting n the years since Reid first reported it, a fact borne out by the commit- }413) Blodgett, a former FBI agent and chief investigator for the jistrict attorney of Los Angeles County, informed the committee that 1y,” Blodgett stated that he personally would believe Becker’s account ‘the alleged Marcello meeting. (293) B4 ing President (414) Becker further told the committee that followto believe that Kennedy’s assassination in Dallas , he quickl y came 4) He reached Carlos Marcello had in fact probably been behind it.(29 havin g been from Lee Oswal d this opinion because of factors such as world associations. New Orleans, as well as Jack Ruby’ s allege d under ht in mob circles that (295) Becker stated that “it was generally thoug further stated that group. ” (296) Becke r Ruby was a tool of some mob ld’s uncle, who used he had learned after the assassination that “Oswa network overseen by to run some bar, had been a part of the gambl ing (297) Marcello. He worked for the mob in New Orleans.”ttee on January 11, (415) Durin g his appea rance before the commi nt of the meeting at 1978, Marcello was questioned about Reid’s accoudent Kennedy. (298) which he allegedly spoke of assassinating Presi sion ever took place Marcello firmly denied that the meeting and discusbook: “The way the and stated that he was familiar with the Reid it like you had paper puts it and the books put it in there, it makes the book about some kind of secret meeti ngs, becau se I have heard what you are telling me.” (299) Robert Kennedy (416) Marcello testified that while he had heard that igatio n of organized was a strong advoc ate of inten sifyi ng the invest before becom ing Attorney Gen- crime figures, and had been so even Asked when ion to it at that time.” (300) eral, “I didn’t pay no attent intent ions, Marcello he did begin to pay attention to Robert Kenne dy’s ney Gener al.” (301) While recallin testified, “When he got to be Attor going to get organ iz that Attorney General Kennedy “said he was stated that “the only crime and all that kind of stuff,” (307) Marce llo ed and deported time I really knowed about it” was when he wasanyarrest partic ular blame on from the Country.” (303) Asked if he place d depor tatio n, Marce llo testifi ed, “No, I the Attorney General for his I guess. ” (304) | don’t, he just done what he thought was right, not recall havin g (417) Marcello further testified that he could about the Kennedy any discussion at his Churchill Farms estate s against organized administration’s intensification of Feder al effort was not a place crime. (305) Marcello stated that Churchill Farms estate was. only used where he would conduct a meeting; that the in the United States deportation with associates because “Everybody s it ... I told the knowed I was kidna ped. I didn’t have to discus talked to me said it whole world that it was unfair. Anybody who was unfair.” (307) against Attor, (418) When asked if he had ever made any threat physical action ney General Kenne dy or had spoke n of takin g any said anything lik¢ against him, Marcello stated, “No sir; I never that.” (308) When asked if he had ever spoke n of taking such actio tened him in any way, Mar} against President Kennedy or had threa like that.” (309) cello stated, “Positively not, never said anyth ing ANALYSIS OF THE EVIDENCE forth b | (419) The account of the alleged Marcello discussion set whic} of Becker and Reid presented a number of serious issues, some 85 had highly disturbing implications regarding the FBI in investigating the possibility of the performance of evidence indicates that the FBI's handling of Mafia complicity. The information about Marcello was characterized by the allegations and ous effort to. investigate its reliability, as well a less than vigor- as a strong desire to “discredit” the information without having actual It. (310) ly to investigate J. Edgar Hoover,(311) while the Bureaw’s own files tained several pieces of information that should on Becker con- ject of careful review. The Bureauw’s files from have been the sub- Novem that Becker had in fact traveled through Louis ber 1962 noted peziod and had also traveled to Dallas. (312) The iana during that Bureau’s own the alleged Becker information was greatly under Likewise, the Bureau’s apparent view that Becker mined as a result. criminal associations undermined the possibility ’s background of met with Marcello—rather than strengthened that he had in fact indicative of the Bureau’s deficient approach that to possibility—was the handling of the allegations about Marcello, the Burea matter. In its out any substantive examination and evaluation u did not carry of nad set forth the information; only the standard the source who various criminal informants and underworld examination of sources was made to letermine the specific nature of their motivation s, credibility and wctivities, tere been any. (317) 423) The evidence shows another aspect of the Bureau’s perform- ree. FBI files clearly indicate a high level awareness a8 involved in trying to “discredit” (the term that the Bureau emorandum) the source of the information, Edwar used in a Bureau d Becker. (318) 86 es FBI agent partici- As noted earlier, the files show that a Los Angel tigated the Marcello g ever inves — pated in the effort, and without havin FBI memorandum on the allegations. (3/9) Further, the June 5, 1967, lf, as well as to his matter (which went to Director Hoover himse of the visit to Reid closest aides) clearly indicated that the “purp ose” that the Carlos Marcello was “to discredit Becker to Reid in order ” (320) sneident would be deleted from the book by Reid. also conta in repea ted refer ences to the Bureau's — (424) The FBI files Sidney Korshak, an ~ use of allegations about Becker received from organ ized crime leader s. (921 ) The files alleged associate of various uarte rs that the Los indicate a high level awareness at Bureau headq ved from Korshak matio n recei Angeles FBI office was using the infor sh the Marcello allega- in an effort to persuade Reid not to publi the files to Korshak’s tions. (322) There was, however, no reference inhis possible motives in activi ties, nor to own possible background and supplying the information at that time. (323) failure to investigate the (425) The evidence shows that the FBI’s allegation that Marce llo had discu ssed assas sinating President Ken-_ tor’s promise to investigate nedy constituted a violation of the Direc r even after the g the Presi dent’ s murde all circumstances surroundin ended in 1964. In his official Warren Commission investigation had 6, 1964, FBI Director appearance before the Commission on May promise, stating: J. Edgar Hoover had personally affirmed that the case I can assure you so far as the FBI is concernedtime. That an open classi ficati on for all will be continued in t coming to us is, any information coming to us or any repor from any source will be thoro ughly inves tigat ed, so that we either prove or dispr ove the allega tion. (324) will be able to alleged Marcello threat (426) The FBI’s failure to take seriously the the Bureau learned was all the more disturbing given the time at which s after the leader- of and discarded the allegation—less than 2 month on himself for } ship of the Bureau had been fault ed by Presi dent Johns er alleg ation by an under world infor mant that | not pursuing anoth involved} tly have been Mafia figures and Cuban agents might secre insta nce, as de-} sinat ion.( 325) In that sn President Kennedy’s assas 1976, FBI} tailed by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in Edward P. Mor-j from Los Angeles Mafia figure John Roselli’s lawyer, gan,(326) only to decide on February 15, 1967, that “no investigation} the allega tions. ” (327) | will be conducted regarding On March 17, 1967, upon learni ng of the Roselli allegation} (497) Johnson per | and of the Bureau’s failure to investigate it, Persident Morgan} ened and ordere d the Burea u to interv iew sonally interv pursue the information and report its findings to him. (328) Submitted by: G. Rosert BLAKEY, , Chief Counsel and Staff Director . | Gary T. CoRNWELL, Deputy Chief Counsel. MicHaEeL Ewine, 87 REFERENCES ernment Printing Office, ‘1959) (hereinafter cited as McClellan Commit hearings before the Permanent Subco tee) ; mmittee on Investigations of the mittee on Government Operations, U.S. Com- Senate, 87th Congress, Gambling and Organized Crime, August-September 1961, parts 2 and 3 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1961) (hereinafter cited as Permanent Investi gations Subcommittee) ; the President’s - Commission on Law Enforcement and the Administration of J ustice, Task Force Report: Organized Crime ( Washing- ton, D.C. : U.S. Government Printing Office, 1967), (hereinafter cited as Organized \((3) Ibid. (4) Ibid. (5) Testimony of Aaron M. Kohn, Mar. 23, 1959, McClellan Committee p. 17221. (6) Ibid. (7) Ibid. (8) Ibid. (9) Ibid. (10) Kohn testimony, Aug. 30, 1961, Permanent Investigations Subcommittee. (11) Ibid. (12) Ibid. (13) Testimony . of Aaron M. Kohn, Mar. 29, 1959, McClellan 17222-23. Committee, pp. (14) Kohn testimony, Aug. 30, 1961, Permanent Investigations Subcommittee ; Kefauver Committee, pp. 77-78; McClellan Committee, pp. 17221-22. (15) McClellan Committee, pp. 17221-22. (16) Kohn Testimony, Aug. 30, 1961, Permanent Investigations Subcommittee. (17) Ibid. (18) Ibid. (19) Ibid. (20) Statement of Aaron M. Kohn, June 11, 1970, House J udiciary Committee Subcommittee No. 5, June 11, 1970. (21) Testimony of Carlos Marcello, Jan. 25, 1951, Kefauver Committee, pp. 6-55. (22) Kefauver Senate Committee report , p. 90. (23) Id. at p. 82. (24) Id. at p. 83. (25) See ref. 20. (26) Kohn testimony, Aug. 30, 1961, Permanent Investigations Subcommittee. (27) McClellan Senate Committee report, No. 1189, pp. 487-88; hearings, pp. 1213-14. (28) McClellan Committee, Mar. 24, 1959, pp. 17257-69. (29) Id. at p. 17265. (30) Id. at p. 17266. (31) Id. at p. 17267. (32) Bill Davidson, ‘“‘New Orleans: Cosa Nostra’s Wall vening Post, Feb. 29, 1964. Street,” The Saturday (33) Ibid. (34) Ramsey Clark, “Crime In America” (New York: Pocket Books, 1971), 3-57. pp. (35) House Select Committee on Crime, hearings, “Organized Crime in 2orts,” June 1, 1972, pp. 970-71. ($6) FBI report, Oct. 24, 1972, La Cosa Nostra file, Bureau No. 92-6054-3176. (87) Ibid. (38) Deposition of Aaron Kohn, Nov. 7, 1978, House Select Committee on ‘Ssinations, p. 40. As- (39) Interview ; of Patrick J. Collins, House Select Committee on Assassina- ms, Nov. 15, 1978. 88 (40) ibid. (41) lbid. (42) Ibid. Sept. 24, 1966; see ref. 20. (43) New York Times, Sept. 23, 1966, (44) Ibid. ltant’s Kennedy and Organized Crime, consu (45) The Assassination of John F, , report this volum e. Select Com- s Marcello, Jan. 11, 1978, House (46) Immunized testimony of Carlo mittee on Assassinations, p. 110. Oct. 1, 1966, Oct. 2, 1966. (47) New Orleans Times Picayune, (48) See ref. 20. (49) Ibid. (50) Ibid. , (51) Ibid. ns Crime Commi ssion, those who ac- the New Orlea (52) Ibid. As detailed by f, one former llo’s behalf included one sherif tively sought clemency on Marce r State legisl ators, two former State police two forme sheriff, one State legislator, bank president, two a waterfront labor union, one commanders, one president of distri ct attor ney, one chief juvenile r assis tant pank vice presidents, one forme agent , three insur ance agenc ies, five real- revenue probation officer, one former or, and six clerg ymen. al direct tors, five physicians, one funer (53) Ibid. Sept. 1, 1967. (54) ‘The Mob,” part 1, LIFE, (55) Ibid. (56) Ibid. | Sept. 8, 1967. (57) “The Mob,” part 2, LIFE, Clay Shaw ,” LOOK , Aug. 26, 1969. cution of (58) Warren Rogers, “The Perse news dispatch, Mar. 1, 1970. (59) United Press International (60) Ibid. m, Mar. 2, 1970. (61) New Orleans States-Ite 1970. r Than Ever,” LIFE, Apr. 10, (62) “The Little Man Is Bigge (63) ibid. r Riesel, May 5, 1970. (64) Syndicated column of Victo (65) Ibid. Oct. 14, 1970. 4, 1970; Wall Street Journal, (66) Los Angeles Times, Sept. (67) See ref. 35. (68) Id. at p. 976. (69) Id. at p. 978. (70) Id. at p. 964. (71) Id. at p. 969. (72) Id. at p. 985. (73) Ibid. 1961, Bureau No. 92-6054. (74) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, ns State s-Ite m, Dec. 28, 1960. 4 (75) New Orlea Bureau No. 92-2713, Sec. 1961, Carlos Marcello file, (76) FBI report, Mar. 8, No. 92-6 054. 1961, Bureau (77) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, (78) Ibid. 1963, Bureau No. 92-6054. (79) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, (80) Ibid. (81) Ibid. (82) Ibid. (83) Ibid. (84) Ibid. 1961, Carlos Marcello file. (85) FBI report, Feh. 18, | Of (86) Ibid. edy, Jan. 6, 1978, House Select Committee Kenn (87) Interview of Regis Assassinations. (88) Ibid. (89) Ibid. (90) Ibid. (91) Ibid. 6. (92) See ref. 37, pp. 65-6 (93) Ibid. Committee (94) Ibid. J. Collins, Nov. 15, 1978, House Select (95) Interview of Patrick Assassinations. (96) Ibid. (97) Ibid. 89 (98) FBI report, Mar. 30, 1961, Carlos Marcello file, Bureau Serials 126-202. (99) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, 1961, Bureau No. 92-6054; New York Times, Apr. 5, 1961, Apr. 6, 1961. (100) Ibid., New York Times, Apr. 5, 1961, Apr, 6, 1961. (101) Ibid. (102) Ibid. (108) Ibid. (104) New York Times, Apr. 16, 1961. (105) Ibid. (106) See ref. 48, p. 37. (107) Ibid. (108) Id. at p. 38. (109) Ibid. (110) Ibid. (111) New York Times, Apr. 10, 1961. (112) New York Times, Apr. 23, 1961. (113) New York Times, May 5, 1961. (114) New York Times, May 20, 1961. (115) Ibid. (116) New Orleans Times Picayune, June 2, 1961, June 8, 1961. (117) New York Times, June 6, 1961. (118) New York Times, June 9, 1961. (119) New Orleans Times Picayune, July 12, 1961. (120) FBI report, June 16, 1961, Carlos Marcello file, Bureau Serials 126-202. (121) Ibid. (122) FBI report, July 18, 1961, Carlos Marcello file, laborator y worksheet, Bureau Serials 126-202. (123) Ibid. (124) New Orleans Times Picayune, Sept. 8, 1961. ~ (125) Ibid. (126) New York Times, Oct. 31, 1961. (127) Ibid. (128) New Orleans Times Picayune, Dec. 21, 1961. ; (129) Bureau of Narcotics report, October 1962, Carlos Marcello file, Washing- ton. (130) Ibid. (131) Ibid. (182) Ibid. (133) New Orleans Times Picayune, Nov. 1, 1962. (184) Ibid. ; (135) Ibid. (136) FBI report, Feb. 15, 1968, headquarters to New Orleans SAC, La Cosa Nostra file, 1963, 92-6054. (187) Ibid. (138) Organized Crime Commission report, pp. 17-20, 90-118; Hearings ; Before he Senate Judiciary Committee, 87th Cong., 2d Sess., Subcommittee on Consti- utional Rights, “Wiretapping and Eavesdropping, Summary Report of Hear- ngs 1958-61.” (139) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, 1968, 1967, Bureau No. 92-6054. (140) Ibid. (141) See ref. 95. (142) Interview of Al Staffeld, Aug. 28, 1978, House Select Committee ‘ on Ssassinations ; deposition of Al Staffeld, Sept. 7, 1978, House Select Committee ) 1 Assassinations, p. 20. (143) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, 1967, Bureau No. 92-6054. > (144) FBI report, Apr. 17, 1963, Carlos Marcello file, sec. 8, Serials 334-879, 7 ureau No. 92-2713. + (145) Ibid. (146) New Orleans Times Picayune, May 28, 1963. (147) Ibid. (148) New Orleans Times Picayune, Nov. 5, 1963. (149) New Orleans Times Picayune, Nov. 28, 1963, Noy. 24, 1963. (150) New Orleans Times Picayune, July 23, 1964. (151) New Orleans Times Picayune, Oct. 7, 1964. (152) Ibid. (153) Ibid. (154) New Orleans Times Picayune, Oct. 8, 1964. 90 Kohn, Nov. 21, 1978, House Select Committee on (155) Interview of Aaron Assassinations. Counsel, Immigration and (156) Interview of Rex Young, Office of General Nov. 20, 1978, House Select Committ ee on Assassinations. Naturalization Service, (157) Ibid. (158) Ibid. (159) Ibid. (160) Ed Reid, “Grim Reapers,” (Henry Regnery Co., 1969), pp. 157-59. (161) Id. at p. 157. Select Committee on Assassi- (162) Interview of Ed Reid, Oct. 20, 1978, House nations; see ref. 160, “Grim Reapers,” pp. 157-59. (163) Ibid. (164) See ref. 160, “Grim Reapers,” pp. 157-58. (165) Ibid. (166) Ibid. (167) Id. at pp. 158-59. (168) Ibid. (169) See ref, 162, Reid interview. (170) Ibid. (171) Ibid. (172) Ibid. (178) Ibid. (174) Ibid. file, Alex Rosen to Cartha DeLoach, (175) FBI report, May 17, 1967, Ed Reid Bureau No. 62-109060-5589. (176) Ibid. (177) Ibid. (178) Ibid. (179) Ibid. ; see ref. 16. (180) See ref. 160, “Grim Reapers,” pp. 157-59 (181) See ref. 162. (182) Ibid. file, Alex Rosen to Cartha DeLoach, (183) FBI report, May 15, 1967, Ed Reid Burea u No. 62-109 060-55 89. (184) Ibid. (185) Ibid. (186) Ibid. (187) Ibid. (188) Ibid. (189) Ibid. (190) Ibid. (191) Ibid. (192) Ibid. (193) Ibid. No. Angeles SAC to Director, Bureau (194) FBI report, May 17, 1967, Los | 62-109060-5589. (195) Ibid. (196) Ibid. (197) Ibid. (198) Ibid. (199) Ibid. 1963, 92-6054. (200) FBI La Cosa Nostra file, 1961, (201) Ibid. : (202) Ibid. Called Crime’s Link to Big (203) “The Double Life of Sidney Korshak : Lawyer 1976. Business,” New York Times, June 27, (204) Ibid. or d Becker, Los Angeles SAC to Direct (205) FBI report, June 5, 1967, Edwar Bureau No. 92-9927-2. (206) Ibid. (207) Ibid. (208) Ibid. (209) Ibid. (210) Ibid. (211) Ibid. Oct. and interview of Edward Becker, (212) See ref. 162, Reid interview; ions. Commi ttee on Assas sinat 1978, House Select p. 157. (218) See ref. 160, “Grim Reapers,” 91 (214) FBI report, May 15, 1967, 62-1 09060-5589. Alex Rosen to Cartha DeLoach, Bureau No. (215) FBI airtel, from Los Angeles to Director, Oct. 20, file, sec. 8, Serials 334-379, Bure 1962, Carlos Marcello au No. 92-2713. (216) Ibid. (217) Ibid. (218) Ibid. (219) Ibid. (220) Ibid. (221) See ref. 212, Becker inter view, Oct. 24, 1978. (222) FBI report, Nov. 21, 1962, Bureau No. 92-2713. Carlos Marcello file, sec. 8, Seria ls 334-379, (223) Ibid. (224) Ibid. (225) Ibid. (226) Ibid. (227) Ibid. (228) FBI report, Nov. 26, 1962, Los Angeles SAC to Director, Carlos file, Serials 334-379, Bureau No. Marcello 92-2713. (229) Ibid. (280) Ibid. (281) FBI report, Nov. 27, 1962, Edward 1589 Becker file, Bureau No. 62-109060— (232) FBI report, Noy. 30, 1962, Edwar d Becker file, Bureau No. 62-109060— 589, (283) Ibid. . (284) Ibid. (285) FBI report, Apr. 11, 1968, Carlos Marcello file, Bureau No. 92-2713. (286) Ibid. (287) Ibid. (2388) Ibid. (289) Ibid. (240) Ibid. (241) Ibid. (242) Depositon of Aaron M. Kohn, Noy. 4 7, 1978, House Select Committee on SSassinations, p. 62. (243) Ibid. (244) New Orleans Crime Commission file ' on Roppolo family, staff review of “e, Nov. 8, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations. (245) See ref. 46. (246) See ref. 212, Becker interview. (247) Ibid. (252) Ibid. (253) Ibid. (254) Ibid. (255) Ibid. (256) Ibid. (257) Ibid. (258) Ibid. (209) Ibid. 260) Ibid. 92 (274) Ibid. (275) Ibid. (276) Ibid. (277) Ibid. (278) Ibid. (279) Ibid. (280) Ibid. (281) Ibid. (282) Ibid. (283) Ibid. (284) Ibid. (285) Ibid. (286) Ibid. (287) Ibid. (288) Ibid. (289) Ibid. (290) Ibid. (291) Ibid. (292) Ibid. (293) Ibid. (294) Ibid. (295) Ibid. (296) Ibid. (297) Ibid. (298) See ref. 46, pp. 36-48. (299) Id. at pp. 43-44. (300) Id. at p. 36. (301) Id. at p. 37. (302) Id. at p. 38. (303) Ibid. (304) Ibid. (305) Id. at p. 43. (306) Ibid. (807) Id. at p. 42. (308) Id. at p. 438. (309) Ibid. No. 62-109060-5589 ;FBI (310) FBI report, May 17, 1967, Ed Reid file, Bureau 1967, Los Angeles SAC to Director , Bureau No. 62-109060-5589 ; report, May 17, to Director, Bureau 1967, Edward Becker, Los Angeles SAC FBI report, June 5, No. 92-9927-2. (311) Ibid. SAC to Director, Carlos Marcello (312) FBI report, Nov. 12, 1962, Los Angeles No. 92-2713 ; FBI report, Nov. 27, 1962 Edward file, Serials 334-379, Bureau FBI report, Nov. 30, 1962, Edward Becker file, Bureau No. 62-109060-5589; Becker file, Bureau No. 62-109060-5589. (313) Ibid. (314) Ibid. (315) See ref. 39. uleL6 jaibid. (317) Ibid. file, Bureau No. 62-109060-5589 ;FBI (318) FBI report, May 17, 1967, Ed Reid May 17, 1967, Los Angele s SAC to Director, Bureau No. 62-109060-5589 ; report, Becker, Los Angele s SAC to Director, Bureau FBI report, June 5, 1967, Edward No. 92-9927-2. (319) Ibid. (320) Ibid. (321) Ibid. (322) Ibid. ; (323) Ibid. mony of J. Edgar Hoover , May 6, 1964, Hearings before the Presi (324) Testi n of President Kennedy (Washingto dent’s Commission on the Assassinatio Printi ng Office, 1964), vol. V, p. 100. D.C.: U.S. Government dy ination of President John F. Kenne (325 iene Investigation of the Assass Select Committee to Stu igence Agenci es,” book V, Performance of the Intell 1976 to Intelligence Activities, April 23, Government Operations with Respect pp. 80-86, Senate report No. 94-755 . (826) Id. at pp. 83-84. (827) Id. at pp. 81-82. ($28) Id. at pp. 82-83. IV. OSWALD’S EARLY LIFE: NEW OR LEANS AND ORGANIZED CRIME * CONTENTS Residence in the Frenc h Quarter: 126 Exch Paragraph arles “Dutz”’ Murret and ange AUG — Sot SN Marguerite Oswald and the New Orleans MPG BOT We eR Ey (42 } Clem worldssace e sete Jswald’s Employment aes hie eee ket (431 eee “larguerite Oswald ah with Pema nae: saddle Sinise ah loan 1s aes rena ae (444) swald, David Ferrie and Aa car (450 the Civil e eee ee r “larguerite Oswald and Air Patro l SUS a eeu (483) Sam PMO Riera se ) SPnS a7 Taker (457) (oes Aten gees Terao es (491) RESIDENCE IN THE FRENCH QUARTER: 126 EXCHANGE ALLEY 428) During his early childhood ze Oswald lived with his and adolescence in New Orlean divorced mother at a num s, ber of different )-lower-income section of the 13 not complete, one address wascity.(Z) While the record of residences jestimony before the Warren 126 Exchange Alley. (2) Dur Commission, Mrs, Marguerit ing her e Oswald f course I didn’t have a fabulous }¢ and very fine citizens live in apartment. But very wealthy peo- yswald correctly noted that that part of town. * * *” (5) While Mrs, “wealthy” citizens resided in Jons of the French Quarter, Exchange Alley was well kno some sec- ) cation of other elements; it was wn as }3 the managing director of an area notorious for illicit activiti the the es, *w Orleans, Aaron Kohn reca Metropolitan Crime Commission of at little block that Oswald livelled, “Exchange Alley, specifically d on, was literally the hub of some snness with which such acti )d, “you couldn’t walk down the block without literally bein forms of illicit activities and g ex- sed to two or three Separate ‘rid operations.” (9) under- 19) As early as November 26, 1963 )) Oswald’s exposure at Exchan , the crime commission had noted ge Alley, when it published ee a Oswald’s later life, particul arly his activities in 1968, is covered ther staff reports and in the in detail commentary. (93) 94. New Orleans background of booklet that included a reference to the t Kennedy 4 days earlier: the man accused of assassinating Presiden 1955 attended Beau- Lee Harvey Oswald during 1954 and where other stu- in New Orle ans, regard Junior High School polic He then resided e. dents frequently were in conflict with at 126 Exchange Alley, with his mother in a dingy apar tmen t from the main business a narrow street extending one block Iberville Street bound- thoroughfare of Canal Street, to the ary at the French Quarter. above a pool hall, Their substandard living quarters werehis one close school- to have take n where Oswald is reported bleak street which he mate, a hangout for gamblers. ‘The idly operated bars, called home was occupied also by sord whic h aggr essi ve homo sexuals and prosti- including some in scene of operations for tutes were frequenters and others the illegal bookies. (10) uded a record of truancy that (430) While Oswald’s earlier years inclnst him and his mother, (77) finally resulted in court proceedings agai about the period in which he there was less information available imony before the Warren Com- lived in Exchange Alley. In her test lyn Murret, a New Orleans native, mission, Lee Oswald’s cousin, Mari y he had a lot of opportunity stated that “certainly on Exchange ‘Alle ough she believed he generally to deviate from the right path ,” alth Charles Murret, told the War- kept to himself. (12) Oswald’s aunt, Mrs.mother lived in “a pretty rough his ren Commission that while Lee and s and everything down below” section * * * with all those poolroomnot think “that Lee ever went into their second floor apartment, she didboy that got into any trouble.” (73) those places, because he never was a average teenager who was going Mrs. Murret further stated that, “The probably been in there shooting to school at Beauregard would have t do that.” (14) She further re- pool and things like that, but he didn’ bunch of boys going to Beaure-f called that “they did have a very bad with boys who “were scrapes” gard” and that Lee “oot in several Kohn noted that Beauregard Hie always having fight s.” (25) Aaro n on; 1t was regarded by some as “t School did have a bad reputati ” (16) While relatively little was} criminal and underworld careers. and out of school during that known of Lee Oswald’s activities lved in and whil e he was not invo in any known illegal acts, af period, Voebel, recalled that Oswal Beauregard classmate of his, Edward time .(17 ) Voebel, believed to have once considered such actions at the ng that period, told the Warr been Oswald’s closest friend duri in raising Lee during that perl guerite Oswald’s various difficulties et stated, ‘“She’s a woman with 1 New Orleans, Mrs. Charles Murr and I’m sure that what she w lot of character and good morals, the best at the time. Now, wheth doing for her boys, she thought was s.” (20) it was or not is something else, I gues 95 CHARLES “DUTZ” MURRET AND THE NEW ORLEANS UNDERWORLD (431) During the various peri lived in New Orleans, he kept in ods in which Lee Harvey Oswald close touch with his aunt and uncl Lillian and Charles “Dutz” Murr et, long-time residents of the city. e, Lillian Murret was the older siste (27) r of Lee Oswald’s mother, Mar- to a real family that Oswald had been his life. In subsequent years, while exposed to up to that point in Biloxi, Miss., Oswald visited his aunt serv ing in the Marine Corps in and uncle at their New Orleans -963, Charles Murret drove Oswald and f the Murret family to Mobile, Ala., for his wife and other members an Murret, Charles and Lillian’s son. (32) overnight visit to see Gene F ollowing Lee’s arrest in 432) While the Warren Commission and the FBI were not fully ware of it in 1963, Oswald’s uncle, Charles Murre s“Dutz”) had for some time been involved t (commonly known in ling circles. The committee established that the New Orleans gam- tganized crime figures there, having worked he was associated with orld gambling syndicate affiliated with the for years in an under- mily. Although the committee first received Carlos Marcello crime » Charles Murret’s underworld involvement from information relating on witness against Teamster leader James R. a former prosecu- Hoffa, as well as from southwestern businessman and his wife acqua inted with Marguerite Sswald, the committee was not able to confirm the 78. The only indication of such background, howev specifics until late mmittee had been able to find amid the documentat er vague, that the id his family from 1963 and 1964 was contained ion on Oswald in an FBI interview th John Pic, Oswald’s half-brother from an earlier other, Marguerite.(34) In the Bureau report of marriage of his that Interview, it is stated that, “Pic advised that his mother * * * was quite close 96 * * Pe said that from some- to her sister, Mrs. Charles Murret * g, it 1s his impression Charles youn thing said to him when he was quite Murr et was a gamb ler and book make r.” (35) No other reference to located among the Warren Murret’s activities and background were to the assassination inves- ing Commission and FBI documents relat that Pic’s brief informatign tigation. Nor was there any indication time. about Murret attracted any interest at the ld noted that she had spoken Simi larl y, when Marg ueri te Oswa (433) activities in an interview for a briefly of her brother-in-law’s gambling 6) In an interview with the n.(3 book in 1965, it attracted little attentio e on Octo ber 30, 1978, Mrs. Oswald declined to respond to committe z” Murret had been a book- various questions, but did state that “Dut she had spoken of his back- maker “for many, many, years” and that Jean Stafford years earlier. (37 ) ground in an interview with author er in History, Stafford had In her biography of Mrs. Oswald, A Moth displeased over her sister was quoted Mrs. Oswald as saying that she testimony. Mrs. Murret had Lillian Murret’s Warren Commission money as a youth than Mar- stated that her son, Gene, saved more d that “Her [Mrs. Murret’s] guerite’s son, Lee did,(38) and then note ng business and had a very boy had a father who was in the bookmaki 9) During his testimony .”(3 large income-—they own their own home 7, 1964, Charles Murret was l before the Warren Commission on Apri and personnel background, (40) not asked abou t his empl oyme nt work ed in the prize-fight business although he indicated that he had In their own testimony before as well as on the New Orleans docks. (47) and daughter Marilyn stated the Commission, Murret’s wife Lillian ough they seemed unclear as to that he had worked on the wharf, alth that “He’s a clerk for, well, he fied what exactly he did. Mrs. Murret testi works at different wharves, in for diffe rent comp anie s * * * he works et was asked what her father’s other words.”(42) When Marilyn Murr steamship clerk—I don’t know occupation was, she answered, “Well, tion of, whether it is under the whether it comes under the jurisdic operate, actually * * * T just don’t Mississippi Shipping, or how they know how that works.” (43) ating other testimony and docu- (434) In November 1978, corrobor e, various members of Charles mentation developed by the committe involvement in New Orleans gam- Murret’s family confirmed his past that her husband had been “in bling activities. Mrs. Murret testifiednamed Sam Saia for a number of the gambling business” with a man not clear on the specific details of years. (44) While stating she was her husband “Dutz” had “been in their relationship, she testified that I don’t know.” (45) Charles Mur- business for [Sam Saia] or with him. Louisiana in 1979, testified that ret’s son, Gene, a State official in been in the gambling trade. his father’s principal occupation hadbookie.” (46) He further stated describing him as “a self-employed died October 12, 1964) “certainly that his late father (Charles Murret .”(47) Marilyn Murret testified has had associations with Sam Saia Saia,” but stated that she did that she did not “know when he knew Saias.”(48) In an interview recall her father’s association with , “the Lee Oswa ld’s mother Marguerite with the Committee in October 1978 Mr. Murret worked with him stated, “I knew Saia. I knew him and They knew each other for years.” (49) 97 (435) Sam Saia, who died in October Federal and State authorities as an 1965, was identified by various organized crime leader in New Orleans area,”(54) employing “num cepted bets for him.” (55 ) An FBI erous runners or agents who ac- the IRS had identified Saia as one ofreport of May 28, 1962, noted that the most powerful gambling fig- ures in the Louisiana area, (56) In 1955, the New Orleans Crime Com- (436) Lee Harvey Oswald’s aunt, her husband Charles had worked forMrs. Lillian Murret, testified that the Lomalinda, as well as at othe Saia at a gambling house called “Gambling at that time was wide r locations.(60) She noted that called that the Lomalinda “was a open here.” (67 ) Gene Murret re- club on Royal and Iberville,” a yr forties”(63) and “maybe” duri ng the 1950’s and 1960’s. (64) pMrs. Murret further stated that her Mor Saia at the time of Murret’s deat husband had not been working iad been “working on the riverfroh in late 1964; rather her husband nt” for some time prior to his leath. (65) 9437) While the committee’s examinat phe investigation of President Kennedy’ ion of FBI documents from pny reference to it, the FBI had rece s assassination did not reveal ived a report years earlier that ‘ad corruption” in the “major cities Jivision.” (68) In the report, the New of [the] New Orleans Field Orleans office had responded by 93 hments number of underworld establis providing a brief summary of a es of the operators and their loca- and operations, listing the nam & A. Clubs” was the following brief “D. tions.(69) Under the heading : “These clubs, which are handbooks information on Char les Mur ret at 128 Chartres Street and 837 only, are operated by Dutz Murrete to handbooks in the two Murret Iberville Street.”(70) The refeerenc to illegal bookmaking activitie the s. (71) clubs was of course a referenc et was in clos e pro xim ity to The club referred to on Iberville Streblishment where Murret worked Lomalinda , the othe r gam bli ng esta with Saia. (72) involved in promoting several (438) Charles Murret had also been having briefly been a boxer him- prizefighters in New Orleans, after self when he was younger. (73) In had his brief testimon before the War-- ret noted that “Dutz” was a nick ren Commission in 1964, Mur ago and it caught on, with me name “that my uncle gave me years it just stuck with me.” (74) being in the fight game and all, and that “Dutz” had been “‘a pro- Mrs. Lillian Murret told the committee File s and records on the prize- moter of fights” years earlier.(75) d by the New Orleans Crime fight business in Louisiana maintaine obituary on Murret in 1964, Commission, as well as the newspaperager of a boxer named Tony noted that he had served as the man managed Sciambra in pro- Sciambra years earlier.(76) Murret had .(77) The committee estab- fessional fights in the New Orl ean s area Sciambra, was an associate lished that “Dutz? Murret’s boxer, Tony a lieutenant of Saia him-— of Saia’s family who went on to bec ome Orleans Crime Com- self.(78) A report on Saia prepared by the New one of Saia’s principal mission in August 1955 listed Sci amb ra as the subject of “numer- deputies,(79) noting that Sciambra had been handbook gambling d ille gal ous arrests” and had been convicte of along with Anthony and Sal vad ore Saia . (80) et’s son Gene stated (439) In his committee testimony, Charles Murr le in the gamblin that his father had worked with vari ous othe r peop had had a partner need business in addition to Saia.(8/) His father other people or two Larry Rue at one time and had worked “with one her that his father’s as time wen t alon g.”( 82) He test ifie d furt gambling operation was solely and exclusively to support his family were and thatis about what it made, and his associations with individuals in that kind of an operat ion who pretty off much did the same, except Sam Saia was a little better in terms of his individual wealth. (83) of being (440) Aaron Kohn had commented on Saia’s reputation ies were very close to Carlos Marcell o.” (84) Saia’s gambli ng activit very closely connected to the Marcello interests. (85) The betting oper ations run by Saia and his associates such as “Dutz” Murret. were| actually operated through the gambling wire service controlled byj Marcello.(86) Such gambling operators made regular payments Marcello for use of the wire service, thus transmitting a share of theit] profits to him. (87) | (441) H The committee was not able to determine whether Charles Dutz” Murret was personally acquainted with Carlos Marcello, al | | : 99 though their mutual associat are evident. Another former ions in the underworld of New Orleans that Murret was probably acq gambling associate of Murret’s testified organized crime lieutenants uainted in some way with two other key of Marcello. (88 (442) While the committee esta e Harvey Oswald, was aware blished that Charles Murret’s nephew, of his uncle’s underworld gam bling McMillan wrote that Mar ina had been told of “Du ties by Lee sometime during tz” Murret’s activi- the spr ing of 1963: * * * Lee had confided to Murrets lived beyond what Marina that he suspected the port * * * Charles Ferdinand his uncle’s earnings would sup , - en known since his prizefigh or °-Dutz.” Murret, as he had and Lee thought that his unc t days, was a steamship clerk, activity on the side, like boo le might be engaged in some other this was so. * * * He though kmaking. There is no evidence that that might bring attention t they did not want to do anything to them, (90) In a committee interview Porter stated, “I don’t rem on December 4, 1978, ember why Lee thought tho Marina Oswald his uncle.(97) She went on se things” about his uncle and his work and to state, “I know he was suspicious about don’t know much about what not, and was interested in it all. But zambling really was then it.” (92) Further, “I did in this country, or what n’t know what ‘Were. I still don’t know wha those mob people ‘emember about that is what it is all about.” (93) She also said, “All I t I pia Priscilla [McMil lan]. Whatever an interview with the 4 Aarguerite Oswald declin committee on October 30, 1978, ny length. (95) She stateded to discuss her family and its activities at »omething about Marcello. tha t the committee was “tryin g to make » turret worked for those ” (96) She said only that “Just because Mr. /0esn’t mean anything abo peo ple , and may have kno ye knew if Marcello ut Lee,” (97) She would wn Marcello, that and Murret were in not state whether )) another brief interv iew with the committee fac t acquainted. (98) 178, Mrs. Oswald again on November 30, _ ning to answer specific spoke of her brother-in-law, although de- questi © had no specific informati ons about him. (99) While saying that ts. Oswald stated, “He on regarding such a relationship, (700) 3 business, He probably [Murret] may have come across Marcello in did come across him at some point.” (707) MARGUERITE OSWALD AND CLEM SEHRT S. ly childhood,” (703) but had not seen the lawyer for years until 100 could enlist in birth certificate” so that he to allow him to “falsify hishe reached the minimum age, (105) They the Marine Corps before ge Alley, with Oswald attending Beaure-— were then living at Exchan . Oswald told the Warren Commission gard High School.(106) Mrs end, Mr. Clem Sehrt, who is an attorney that, “I have a very good fri him and told him I had a personal prob- +n New Orleans * * *.I called ther recalled that Sehrt had at first de- lem.” (107) Mrs. Oswald fur advice on Lee’s desire to alter his birth clined to offer her any legal te, I cannot advise you. It would be un- | certificate, stating, “Margueri n the service” before they reach the re- ethical. But a lot of boys joi 5 quired age. (108) Orl ean s Cri me Com mis sio n, was (445) Sehrt, according to the New isi ana ban ker asso- | l adviser to a Lou an associate, lawyer, and financiahis various holdings. (109) Sehrt’s law cjated with Carlos Marcello and orney for Marcello.(110) Sehrt, him- partner had also served as an att cial, had come to prominence in the self a former State banking offihip with Louis J. Rousell State through his close relations n stated that Sehrt and Rouse leans banking executive. Aaron Koh of high ly questionable undertakings “were long involved in a number Kohn added that Se | both business and political.” (717) in vari ous prof essi onal deal ing known as Rousell’s key intermediary tified with him in the and activities and was closely iden ission noted that Rousell hac (446) The New Orleans Crime Comm with Marcello. He personally admitted to an old and close relationship testi fied during a Security anc emphasized that friendship when he stolen securities in Miami du Exchange Commission investigation of commission further noted tha} ing the early 197 0’s.(113) The crim e t to seek clemenc by joining with other parties in an effor lting a New Orleans the Mafia leader’s convi ction for assau to prominence through hj (447) During the 1950’s, when Sehrt rose had come to be involved in } close association with Rousell, Rouse ll two Louisiana Supreim political scandal in which, it was reported, the 1950’s.(127) 101 449) On December 7 , 1978, the formed the committee of som New Orleans Crime Commis e information it had recently sion in- learned Harvey Oswald. (129) Sehrt did not tell his associate who this legal representation, nor req did Sehrt agree to repres uested wald.(730) Sehrt’s associate could not recall any further ent Os- informa- OSWALD’s EMPLOYMENT WITH TUJAGUE’S (450) In their testimony before the War ren Commission in 1964, Mrs. hat her nephew Lee “had wor vhile for Tujague’s.”(134) Atked as a runner when he was here for a jlained that “he had a job as a later point in her testimony, she ex- a ag, delivering messages and thirunner, going from building to build- *stimony, when asked if she ngs like that.” (135) Still late knew anything further regard r in her ork for Tujague’s, Mrs. Murret ing Lee’s ther than he was working ther stated, “No. I didn’t know anything { thing, for them.” (736) Mar e, and he was a runner, and that sort guerite Oswald recalled that » was Tujague and Son, who “His ““ssenger.” (737) She further was steamship people, and he first was a “ecking account while workin recalled that Lee had opened his first g for Tujague’s. (138) 1) The committee loo ked into Oswald’s employment ‘hile both his mother and aun by Tujague’s. orked for a business called Tuj t had briefly noted that Oswald had ague’s, the Commission had not cleared re were at least two business Tuy named Tujague in es operated by an individua New l or ‘the edge of the French Qua Orleans. One, Tujague’s Restaurant, the Oswald residence at Exc rter, was located within hange Alley.(140) Kohn a stat few blocks ’Testaurant had been one of the better ones in the area ed that during the 102 g place for underworld t also had a reputation as a gatherin uented by various s was freq "peaeewere ) Kohn noted that Tujague’ as officials of the State Athletic well-known gambling figures, as well Commission.(142) With this informatns ion in mind,as well as the knowl- oper atio have traditionally used young edge that various gambling determine whether Oswald boys as “runners,” the committee sought to ner” and, if not, whether had worked at Tujague’s Restaura nt as a “run that did. The evidence it was connected in any way to the Tuj ague’s é indicates he did not work there. Fran k DiBe nedetto (452) In an inte rvie w on Nove mber 16, 1978, ardi ng Co. state d that his comp any of Gerard F. Tujague’s, Inc. Forw nede tto, who had employed Lee Oswa ld duri ng that peri od. (743 ) DiBe gue’ s deat h, stat ed that took over the business following Gerard Tuja empl oyed he had been Oswald’s supe rvis or and that Oswa ld had been isted as a messenger.(144) He stated further that Oswald’s work cons m- largely of deliveri ng comp any pape rs and mess ages to vari ous stea ship lines on the docks(145) and that Tu) ague’s messengers had never been used for any gambling purposes to his knowledge. (46) According to DiBenedetto, Oswald had worked with him at Tujague’s for a year to a year and a half. An FBI teletype located by the committee, how- ever, quoted Gerard Tujague as saying that his payroll records indi- cated Oswald’s employment had lasted only 2 months.(147) In his interview with the committee, DiBenedetto stated that Gerard Tujague had once told him that his family was in no way related to the Tuja- oue’s who owned the restaurant by that name. (148) MARGUERITE OSWALD AND RAOUL SERE | (453) At the time of her first marriage to Edward Pic of New Orleans, Marguerite Oswald (then Marguerite Claverie) was working | as a secretary for a lawyer in that city, Raoul Sere. Marguerite’s sister, Mrs. Charles Murret, told the Warren Commission of her sister’s employment by Sere and noted that Marguerite had left her job after her marriage.(/49) Mrs. Murret. further testified that after Margue- rite’s first marriage failed, Sere rehired her(150) and helped her pay some debts she had acquired for furniture and other items. (157) (454) Politically active as an attorney, Sere went on to become an assistant district attorney for the city of New Orleans.(152) Aaron Kohn recalled that “Sere played a key role in running the D.A.’s office during the period in which that office was later proven to be highly corrupt.” (153) “The D.A.’s office was then under the corrupt influence of the gambling syndicate—Carlos Marcello and various others—to a very significant degree.”(154) Kohn further stated that “Raoul Sere was an important part of the New Orleans parish political establishment during its worst period”(155) at a time mM which “the enforcement of the law decidedly took a backseat to racke teer payoffs throughout the city government.” (156) Kohn noted tha Sere was widely alleged to have been associated with a small politica circle known as “the Combine” (157) a handful of New Orleans figur who reportedlyY obstructed ODStruc a number of criminal crimi ing cases, including a important probe of police corruption. (158) : 103 (455) While the files of the New Orleans references to Sere’s activities as assistant Crime Commission contain allegations that bribery payoffs were district attorney, including channeled through him by crimi- nal interests in the city,(159) Sere criminal investigation. (160) was never the subject of any (456) While Marguerite Oswald “wor a while,” according to her sister, the ked for Raoul Sere for quite ment is unknown.(/6/) In an intervieexact duration of that employ- w with the committee on No- (457) While he lived in New Orleans, the Civil Air Patrol there.(166) He had Oswald became a member of organization at the age of 15 and atte joined the student aviation nded CAP meetings for an un- own period of time, generally belie brief.(167) In her testimony before theved to have been relatively guerite Oswald stated that her son Lee “joiWarren Commission, Mar- ned the Civil Air Patrol” terested in astronomy.” (169) (458) Oswald’s involvement with the CAP in New Orleans became the subject of intense controversy, vithin several days of President Kennspeculation and investigation ontinued to attract attention since then. edy’s assassination and has whether Oswald may have met and The central question has been known David W. Ferrie during hat period. Ferrie was a private investigat ‘tho has been widely regarded as one of or and pilot in New Orleans the more “mysterious” persons 0 figure in the investigation of Presiden t Kennedy’s death. Ferrie was riefly the subject of investigation by the ttorney’s Office, and Secret Service FBI, New Orleans District during the week following the resident’s murder.(/70) Later Ferri e ntroversial investigation by New Orlealso became subject of the “arrison during 1967-69 that led to an abort ans District Attorney Jim rn led to serious charges against Garr ive prosecution. This in Teless nature of his investigation.(/77)ison for the questionable and rvice investigations of Ferrie had not The brief FBI and Secret focu he on Ferrie’s background and working sed to any significant “sequent Garrison investigation focused associations, while the exclusively on Ferrie’s per- nal associations with Cuban exiles and purp rey left largely untouched im portant aspec orted links to the CIA. ts of Ferrie’s background, 104 1963, at which and associations during in particular his activities Carlos Marcello’s attorney, G. Wray Gill. time he was employed by for Marcello had brought him into close Ferrie’s investigative work organized crime leader. (1 72) ie poe person al ass oci ati on wit h the h Fer rie — ald had been associated wit ald in the (459) The allegation that Osw w hav e bee n inv olv ed wit h Osw and that Ferrie may someho t set forth by a colleague of Ferrie’s in President’s murder—was firs Martin, a sometime private investigator New Orleans.(173) Jack 8. ed various investigators during the days ifi and friend of Ferrie’s, not assassination that he suspected Ferrie immediately fol low ing the wn Ferrie crime. (174) Martin had kno may have aided Oswald in thed him occasionally at the office of Carlos for over 2 years and had visiteFerrie worked as an investigator. (175) Marcello’s attorney, where District At- tin contacted New Orleans On November 24, 1963, Mar ise that he suspected Fer rie may have torney Herman Kohlman to adv that Ferrie, years earlier, may have known Oswald for some time and il Air Patrol. (176) Civ been Oswald’s instructor in the was interviewed by FBI Agent Reg is (460) On November 25, Martin vided further information.(177) He Kennedy in New Orleans and proral people in the news media of his stated that he had informed seve ald(178) and that he thought he information about Ferrie and Oswald and other CAP members when had once seen a photograph of Osw Martin stated that he had heard he once visited Ferrie’s home. (179) belonged to the New Orleans on television that Oswald had in fact Ferrie had probably known CAP and thus began to think that rts of his interview, Martin him.(780) According to the FBI repo Ferrie: went on to voice other suspicions about e’s home a number Martin stated that. he observed in Ferriopinion that Ferrie of foreign made firearms and it is his hase a foreign made could have taught Oswald how to purc that was shown on d the gun firearm or possibly have purchase ar type weapons at television. He advised that he saw simil (181) Ferrie’s home when he visited there 2 years ago. he believed Ferrie was an Martin further informed the FBI that capable of hypnotizing Os- “amateur hypnotist” who may have been him about a young frien wald.(782) Further, Ferrie had once toldst nature” that Ferri e had who had witnessed an alleged “crime again New Orleans “and subsequently committed, a young man who had left stated that when he joined the U.S. Marine Corps.” (183) Martin ne, he began to sus- heard on television that Oswald had been a Mari pect that he was the young man Ferrie had refer red to.(784) Martin only been a coincidence. (185) cautioned. however. that this micht have FBI of Ferri e’s past histo ry of homosexual Martin further told the putable person, ly disre arrests,(786) stating that “Ferrie is a comnlete er, Martin a notorious sex deviate with a brill iant mind .” (787) Furth him of being capable of commit ting any type oO suspected crime.” (188) Martin had concluded by stating : with Lee * * * that he felt that Ferrie’s possible association Oswald should be the subject of close examin ation as he per- sonally believed that he could be implicated in the killing of President John F. Kennedy. (189) 105 (461) The introduction of David Ferri of investigation in the Kennedy assas e as a “suspect” or target sination case was to result in the development of a number of ‘areas of evidence. The FBI undertook a brief Inves information, allegations and whether Lee Oswald had known Ferrie tigation into the question of viewing several former CAP members, in the Civil Air Patrol. inter- but did not make any final the use of rifles, he had not particip cording to the FBI report of his inte ated in that training.(792) Ac- rview, Ferrie “stated that he does ing i period he was with the grou p.”(/93) The FBI report. con- tinued: Ferrie went on to state that he was in fact acquainted with Mart vho first made the allegations abou in, ‘nown Martin as a private inve t Ferrie and Oswald.(795) He had Martin had “attempted to insert stigator for over 2 years, and that airs.”(196) Ferrie further statedhimself” into Ferrie’s “personal af- osed as a “paranoid” in the psyc that Martin had once been hiatric ward of a local hospital diag- ie had thrown Martin out of the . (197) hat ee and Martin resented him office of Marcello’s attorney earlier for that act.(19S:) The FBI repo rt of 1963 he put Martin out of Mr. Gill ’s office in an undiplo- matic manner and that sinc e that time Martin has bede viled 62) The FBI and Secret Ser at Oswald and Ferrie had beevice investigation into the possibility ‘Me to an end a few days after n associated in the Civil Air Patrol cret Service report concluded the allegations were first reported. A “Martin to the effect that Davidthat “information furnished by Jack William Ferrie associated with Leo 1as the appearance of being an 1on of furnishing incorrect inf alcoholic, has the repu- ormation to law enforcement officers, 106 1963, the said that on November 26, attorneys, etc.” (201) It also e that Martin had “admitted to FBI FBI had informed the Servic ormation about Ferrie and up Oswald was agents” that his alleged infon and that he had mad e the story “a figment of his imaginatis and watching television.” (202) Actu- after reading the newspaper the content of its interview with Martin ally, the FBI had overstated orted it to the Secret Service.he had (203) on November 26, when they rep f had cautioned the FBI tha t As noted earlier, Martin himselpicions and noted that his information no evidence to support his sus ught merited investigation. (204) was just that: suspicions that he tho also stated that Martin, during an (463) The Secret Service report ts, had acknowledged he did not snterview with Secret Service agen his suspicions. (205 ) Martin had have any specific details to back rupand stated that he may have exag- admitted to being a heavy drinke his story as though it was based on erated his information and “told ort concluded by stating, “In view acts.” (206) The Secret Service rep igation involving William David of the above, this phase of the invest7 ) Ferrie will be considered closed.” (20 the (464) On November 28, 1963, in offi a teletype to the Director and tio s FBI ce rep ort ed that the inv estiga n Dallas office, the New Orlean cluded and noted that “all alle- of Martin’s allegations was being conk S. Martin who was previously gations against Ferrie stem fro m Jac rity Hospital, New Orleans, for confined to the psychiatric ward of Cha wn to New Orleans office and kno a character disorder. Martin is welle.” (208) The November 28, 1963, is considered thoroughly unreliabl FBI teletype also set forth additional ier information obtained during a t day. (209) In it, Ferrie second interview with Ferrie from earl any tha con tact with Oswald. (210) had again denied that he had ever had eve r: The FBI report of the interv iew not ed, how and advised at David William Ferrie reinterviewed today very much em- time of Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba he was provided and barrassed and concerned over lack of air cover in public and severely criticized President Kenn edy both statement that private. Ferrie stated he has never made any intention to do President Kennedy should be kille d with any or made any so and has never at any time outlined any plan should do it. statement as to how this could be done or who used an off- Ferrie said he is very outspoken and may have shot,” in ex- han dor collo quial expre ssion , “He ough t to be pressing his feelings concerning Cuban situa tion * * - dent riding in Ferrie said he has also been critical of any Presithe open car and has stated anyon e could hide in bushes and shoot a President. (211) onal statement (465) ‘Two weeks later, Ferrie furnished an additi .(212) He di FBI agent Regis Kenne dy of the New Orlean s office Orleans Mois closed that he had conducted CAP sessions at New ae in addition to Lakefront Airport, as he had stated earlie In 1955, or thereabouts, I assisted, for a time, the Moisant Or- Squadron of Civil Air Patrol, at Moisant Airport, New leans, La., though I cannot establi sh throug h person al records or recollection the exact dates of this connection. I have no 107 records, or recollection, to my know Harvey Oswald was, or was not, a ledge, to show that Lee unit of the Civil Air Patrol. To my member of this particular I do not know Lee Harvey Oswald, best knowledge and belief — recollection of ever having met him. and have no personal it was very casual and to my best recoIf I did ever mect him not seen him in recent years, (214) llection have definitely (466) The committee undertook an Harvey Oswald’s involvement in the extensive examination of Lee determine whether Oswald did in factCivil Air Patrol and sought to during that period. The committee belihave any contact with Ferrie Oswald and Ferrie may have been in eved that the possibility that sented significant questions that neededcontact during that period pre- areas of information regarding possible to be resolved. A number of and Ferrie in 1963 had been developed associations between Oswald by the committee, information example, the committee developed new various activities on behalf of Carlos Marc information about Ferrie’s contact with the Mafia leader during the ello in 1963, and his personal (467) During the brief investigation fall of that year. (275) in 1963 conducted by the FBI, Secret Service, and New Orleans district attor tions that Oswald might have been assoc ney’s office of allega- witness had provided information simil iated with Ferrie, another ar Edward Voebel was a former classmate of to that of Martin. (276) attended the CAP meetings with Oswald. Oswald’s(277) who had Warren Commission had established (218) Voebel, whom the was during his teenage years in New Orleans,(2/9 Oswald’s closest friend gard High School with Oswald and had ) had attended Beaure- who first accompanied Oswald to the CAP actually been the friend ren Commission itself used Voebel’s Comm meetings. (220) The War- mary source of information on Oswald’s ission testimony as a pri- (468) Speaking of Voebel, Mrs. Margueriadolescent years. (227) Commission, “This young man te Oswald told the Warren and Lee were very friendly * * * he (469) On November 25, 1963, at the same ions about Ferrie and Oswald were being time that Martin’s allega- interviewed by the FBI. (224) He stated that investigated, Voebel was friend of Oswald during the period 1954- he had become a close 55, and that they used to dlay pool together after school at a poolroom ‘n Exchange Alley. (225 ) Oswald seemed to next to Oswald’s home luring the period of their friendship. Voebe be a typical teenage boy Jswald was alread “studying Communism” l said that reports that 226) —Oswald commonly read “paperback were a “lot of baloney” ) During this first interview with FBI agent trash.” (227) Aolvement in the CAP with Oswald: s, Voebel spoke of his Voebel stated that he and Oswald were memb ivil Air Patrol in New Orleans with Capt. ers of the during the time they were in school. (228) Dave Ferrie 108 ly that there had prob- Voebel at this time seemed to indicate clear ld in the CAP. He became ably been contact between Ferrie and Oswacours e of a second interview uncertain about such contact duri ng the mber 25, 1963.(229) Then with FBI agents later that same day, Nove attend the meetings of his he stated that he had persuaded Oswa ld to 0) Oswald had “attended CAP unit at Moisant Airport in 1955.(23 the most.” (231) Voebel two or three drills and possibly four drill at s often Oswald was at further stated that it was difficult to recall how k for being there and the CAP meetings because “Oswald had a knac once or twice a week not being noticed.” (232) The CAP unit met were girls.(233) Ac- and included 20 to 25 members, some of whomrview: cording to the FBI report of this second inte Ferrie Voebel stated that he could not recall if Capt. Dave meet- was commander of the unit at the time Oswald attended in ings or wheth er Oswal d attend ed meeti ngs prior to Capta Ferrie taking command. (234) (470) Voebel stated that Ferrie was commander of his CAP unit when or — during part of 1955, but that he could not recall precisely meetings. — if it was during the same period that Oswald attend ed the gent,” re- — - (235) Voebel recalled that Captain Ferrie was “very intelli Easter n Air- | portedly held several degrees, and was then a pilot for t lines.(236) He said that Oswald quit attending the Moisant Airpor an-_ CAP meetings sometime after being enrolle d as a membe r because closer be other CAP unit (at New Orleans Lakefront Airport) wouldonce taken to home. (237) Voebel further told the FBI that Ferrie had in- | overni ght “bivou ac” in which Ferrie had his CAP unit on an structed the cadets to bring along rifles for shooti ng practic e. (238) The Voebel did not believe Oswald had participated in this outing. call” FBI report noted that Voebel receive d “a crank- type teleph one during the course of the interview, and had mentioned that he “had also been frightened” by a person who came to his home earlier claim- ing to be a news reporter. This man disturbed him and had “acted very suspicious.” (471) An FBI teletype from the New Orleans office to Director J. Edgar Hoover on November 26, 1963, summarized that “Voebel was unable to recall if Oswald attended meetings under command of Ferrie or with previous commander.” (239) (472) On November 27, 1963, 5 days after President Kennedy’s murder, Voebel was also interviewed by New Orleans Police Depart- ment officers.(240) In a report of this interview, prepared for Maj. P. J. Trosclair, Jr., of the department, it was noted that Voebel be- | lieved Oswald had attended the Moisant CAP meetings for “only * ** | about 1 month.” (247) During the course of this police interview, how- | ever, Voebel also stated that while he could not be sure, he thought that | Oswald may once have attended a party given by Ferrie during their} involvement with the CAP.(242) According to the report: | « Voebel stated that he believed Oswald attended a party (not sure) at the home of David Ferrie (captain) right after the members of the CAP received their stripes. (243 Voebel did not elaborate on this event.(244) Two days later, on} November 29, 1963, in an internal FBI memorandum from Assistant} 109 Director Alex Rosen to Associat e Director Alan Belmont, Voeb account of his CAP involvement el’s was again summarized : Edward Voebel, on interview, said | the CAP, New Orleans, for appr he had been a mem ber of David William Ferrie took over oximately 1 year, 1955-56. unit during this time. Voebel took as commander of the CAP ings and stated Oswald attended Oswald to one of the meet- four meetings at the most, (245) several meetings, possibly (4738) On April 7, 1964, the testimon y of Edward Voebel was taken Voebel noted that their school “see and that “it was almost impossiblemed to draw a lot of bad characters” against somebody or getting involved to go to school without brushin mony, Voebel stated that Oswald had in a fight.”(250) In his testi- of the CAP and “bought a uniform atte nded “two or three meetings” to be very interested at the outset.” and everything, and * * * seemed (456) Toward the end of his test (251) recall who had headed their CAP imony, Voebel was asked if he could unit at that time: Mr. JENNER. Who was the majordomo you attended? of the CAP unit that Mr. Vorset. I think it was Captain there when Lee attended one of these Ferrie. I think he was sure of that. Now that I think of meetings, but I’m not Ferrie was there at that time, but it, I don’t think Captain isn’t too clear to me, (252) he migh t have been. That (474) The committee sought to estimony, but learned from his fathlocate Edward Voebel to take his vhat his son had died in 197 1.(253)er, Sidney Voebel of New Orleans, vhat his son had told him regardin Sidney Voebel could not recall ind Ferrie.(254) While stating that g his past contacts with Oswald Yoebel said he believed that the circ he doesn’t “have any proof,” leath were “mysterious.” (255)He umstances surrounding his son’s lot” at the age of 31 when he suff had “died suddenly from a blood ered an attack of pneumonia. (256 ) ® period of time in which Oswald ole, then of the St. Bernard Pari had been involved. (258) Harold sh Sheriff’s Office, informed the 110 ron were stolen in late FBI that “most of the records of the squad 1960.” (259) 1963, another CAP — (476) In an FBI interview on November 27, n regarding Oswald’s — executive was able to suppl y partia l infor matio FBI agent s that while he involvement.(260) Joseph Ehrlicker told was able to locate was unable to find a CAP appli catio n by Oswal d, he ating that “Oswa ld was enrol led as a CAP cadet on. a record indic 08496 5.” (262) July 27, 1955, at which time he was given Serial No. enrol led in the cadet squad ron at Moisa nt Airpo rt. Oswald was then unit. (262) The records did not indicate when Oswal d left the CAP Also with regard to David Ferrie: Ehrlicker was able to determine that Ferrie’s first period as Squadron Commander was terminated December 31, 1954. He was working at Moisant Airport at this time. It was later found out that Ferrie subsequent to this date was working with the squadron at Moisant without official connection with the CAP. As of late 1955 he was no longer with the squad- ron. (263) (477) As can be seen from the fragmented CAP membership docu-} mentation provided by Ehrlicker, Ferrie was involved with the Moi- sant CAP unit (in an apparently unofficial capacity) for an uncertain period of time between December 31, 1954, and “late 1955.” (264) The: | same CAP documentation indicated that Oswald had been involved m | the same CAP unit in the summer of 1955, having officially enrolled onj July 27, 1955.(265) Thus, while the CAP documentation available ir | 1963 did not permit a conclusive determination, the records themselves | lent substantial credence to the possibility that Oswald and Ferrie had been involved in the same CAP unit during the same period of time} (478) While Ferrie stated during his November 25, 1963, FBI inter | view, that he had been a commander of the Lakefront Airport CA =| unit (266) it was not until December 10, 1968, when he provided an | other statement to the Bureau, that he said he had also worked wit | the Moisant Airport CAP. (267) ] (479) During the course of its investigation of Oswald’s involvemen} with the CAP and his possible contact with Ferrie, the committee in} terviewed O’Sullivan, a former high school classmate and friend o} Oswald who had also been involved with Oswald and Voebel in thf CAP.(268) Fred O’Sullivan had originally suggested to Oswald an | Voebel that they might enjoy attending CAP meetings and asked ther} to participate in his squadron.(269) O’Sullivan’s past involvement with Oswald in the CAP unit first came to the attention of the FBI on November 25, 1963, when New Orleans Assistant District Attorne Herman Kohlman informed FBI Agent Regis Kennedy that “An ut| known police officer had told the Intelligence Division of the Nef Orleans Police Department that he was in the Civil Air Patrol with L¢ Harvey Oswald and that Ferrie knew Oswald.” (270) Later that daj the FBI was able to identify Fred O’Sullivan of the New Orleaij Police Department Vice Squad as the classmate.(27Z) In an intervief with Bureau agents that day, O’Sullivan stated that he had persuade his classmates, Lee Oswald and Ed Voebel, to attend his CAP squa | ron meetings at the New Orleans Lakefront Airport.(272) Oswaf | lil and Voebel had come “to one or two meet O’Sullivan stated that Oswald thought ings, but did not join.” (273) was too far away and decided to atte the Lakefront CAP location Squadron instead.(274) O’Sullivan told nd the Moisant Airport CAP the FBI that Ferrie “was Squadron Commander” at the “approxi to the Lakefront CAP meetings.(275) mate time” that Oswald came “could not say for certain that Oswald He added, however, that he ever met Ferrie” at the time. (276) He further stated that Ferrie hims working with the other CAP unit at Moiself also subsequently began (480) In a second FBI interview, ant Airport. (277) on November 26, 1963, O’Sulli- van further advised that Ferrie migh at the Moisant Airport CAP. (278) tAcco have had contact with Oswald this interview, “Ferrie * * * transfer rding to the FBI report of red and assumed command of the AP at Moisant Airport at about the Oswald might have joined.” (279) O’Susame time O’Sullivan thought Bureau that he had only recently llivan further informed the background. (280) He also noted that lear ned of Ferrie’s homosexual Ferr tion for being able to hypnotize people,” ie “had acquired a reputa- tized a man following one of the CAP and that he had once hypno- oo) In an interview with the comm meet ings . (287) ‘Sullivan repeated the account of itte e on October 17, 197 8, Ferrie that he had provided the FBI inhis contacts with Oswald and tector for Hilton Hotels, he stated that 1963.(282) Now a security di- shat he ever saw Oswald and Ferrie he could not say with certainty hey probably did in fact attend the together, although he believed CAP meetings during the same deriod. (283) In an interview on Dece old the committee that while “Ferrie mber 15, 1978, O’Sullivan again ame a couple, or a few times,” he coul ran the unit then, and Oswald nformation about the matter. (284 d not recall any more specific ) 482) In another interview with 978, another former CAP memberthe committee on December 9, ion in the New Orleans unit, Coll recalled Oswald’s participa- f the New Orleans Public Library, in Hamer, now an official about ten or twelve meetings” of the stated that he had attended Iswald was also present. (285 ) Hamer CAP unit during which nd said that Oswald had begu knew both Oswald and Voebe! n attending the CAP meetings some- Hamer commented that he had hever _ following the assassination of Pres been interviewed by the Tding to Hamer, David Ferrie had iden t Kennedy.(289) Ac- been present during the CAP tings that Oswald attended: “Fer rie during the time Lee and I were invo was at all the meet- ays do the teaching, but he was alwa lved in CAP. He didn’t ? committee that ys there.”(290) Hamer told Oswald “was a real quiet kid” and that Ferrie rest of us. He was just the teacher so to | stated, ether or not Ferrie and Oswald had “I don’t know anything about any contact outside of the CAP. as in our unit for about 2 months, and 112 that .” (292) Hamer further recalled Ferrie ran it during that time ” who became irritated if the cadets Ferrie was “a tough commander er also recalled calling Oswald’s “voofed around at all.”(293) Ham that Oswald was going to attend home on one occasion to make surenot know why Oswald left the CAP a CAP meeting. (294) Hamer did mittee that he was aware that some unit.(295) Hamer also told the com Ferrie’s house and engaged in out- CAP cadets had “hung around” at not know if Oswald ever had such side activities with him. (296) He did mer said that he, himself, had Ham contact with Ferrie:(297) Finally, several years later and “weeded become an adjutant of the CAP unit did not recall handling any files on out a lot of the old files then,” but Oswald. (298) wed a former commander of the (483) The committee also intervie Gladys Durr.(299) Mrs. Durr Moisant Airport CAP squadron , Mrs. November 25, 1963.(300) In that had been interviewed by the FBI on med command of the CAP unit interview, she advised that she had assu whic h would have been several in October or December 1955 ,(30 1) Lee Oswald, but that David stated that she did not recall knowing squadron “at about the time” Ferrie had been “expelled” from the CAP me commander of the squad- beca she joined it.(303) While Mrs. Durr ld was a member, her recollec- ron subsequent to the time when Oswa the unit until late 1955 would tion that Ferrie was still active in the unit during the period ‘ndicate that he probably was in fact with e records indicate that Oswald that Lee Oswald was in it. The availabl 1955,(304) and his CAP col- was enrolled as a cadet on July 27,activ e in the unit for a couple of leagues generally recalled him being ent in the CAP ending months. Thus, with Ferrie’s leng thy invo lvem Com man der Durr, the likeli (temporarily) in late 1959, according to duri ng Oswald’s member hood of Ferrie’s service with the CAP unit ship in the summer of 1955 seems logical. Durr stated that while she (484) In her committee interview, Mrs. r cadets remembering that did not know Oswald, she could recall othe recalled that Ferrie hac he attended the meetings. (305) She further ans Lakefront Airport originally conducted CAP classes at New Orle and on one occasion so reputation for having bad moral character, and engaged in variouy CAP cadets had become drunk at his home that such incidents we activities in the nude.(308) Mrs. Durr stated cular CAP unit. (304 what led to Ferrie being expelled from that parti r commander of t (485) The committee interviewe d anoth er forme John Irion, active with the group from 1955 4 New Orleans CAP, ions consultan} 1959.(310) Irion, a management and public relat the CAP. (314 worked closely with Ferrie during their years with Irion once tes | The two were personal friends for over 10 years, and f durin g a legal proce eding again st him. (314 fied on Ferrie’s behal photographq Trion, Ferrie, and the mayor of New Orleans were once Orlea together, a CAP photograph later published by the New Times Picay une.( 373) Irion recall ed that Ferri e was a “dynamif led being introduc} leader known for his intelligence.(314) He recal 113 by Ferrie to Carlos Marcello’s atto one occasion.(375) Irion told the rney, G. Wray Gill, on more than Oswald going through “basic trai committee that he recalled Lee ning” with the CAP during the period in which he and Ferrie were with the New Orleans squadron, with the CAP for a significant length tion in the unit’s “basic training.” (378)of time following his participa- tioned by the FBI during the investig Irion said he was never ques- ation of President Kennedy’s (486) The committee was able to Aizenhoffer, who had served as the locate and interview Anthony platoon sergeant for the Moisant Airport CAP squadron in late 1954 2alled helping coordinate the small and 1955.(320) Atzenhoffer re- shat his duties had included calling the CAP unit at Moisant and noted vegistration matters, (321) He told the roll at meetings and handling nstructor at the Moisant CAP meetings committee that F errie was an during this period. (322) Fer- ime time.(328) Atzenhoffer stated - tem together. I don’t have that deta “T can’t recall seeing the two of ley were there together at the same iled of a memory. But I’m sure time.” (329) Atzenhoffer said that 2 could not recall any more specific y that I know anything about Ferrie information and added: “T can’t here else, except at the CAP meetings and Oswald being together any- 87) The committee also intervie .” (330) wed George Boesch, another for- 2r CAP member in New Orleans at period. (337) Boesch, now a mem who worked with Ferrie during ber of the New Orleans Fire De- ‘rtnent, had worked with Ferrie in the New Orleans Lakefront Air- tt squadron of the CAP. (332) He tional competition match of the once accompanied Ferrie to a CAP and had traveled with him ewhere. (333) He, too, recalled Ferrie od moral character, a man devoted as highly intelligent and of to teaching flying to young Tre left the Lakefront squadron tadron at Moisant Airport. (335) and began teaching the CAP He and Ferrie helped reorganize ’ Moisant CAP program, whic by lets.(336) Boesch also rememberedh Lee then also included female stings at Moisant during the peri Oswald attending the CAP od when he and Ferrie were te.(337) He could recall Oswald being ‘Me was the instructor. (338) Boesch there for 2 to 3 months while stated that there were usually 114 between Oswald and Fer rie, anything unusual ; bout the relationship bet ween them. (340) Boe sch he did not know seey other contact life and was © he was not fam ili ar with Ferrie’s personal: stated that 1) s outside the CAP. (34 former unaware of his activitie o interviewed Jerry Paradis, the (488) The committee als New unit. (342) In Orleans Lakefront CAP adron meet- recrui t ins tru cto r of the squ attended the Lakefront Paradis corrobo- confirming that Oswald had Moi san t CAP meetings) , ings (in addition to the Oswald colleagues in the CAP. (343) Para- rated the accounts of otherorney, told the committee that Oswald at- dis, now a corporate att meetings for several weeks or several tended the Lakefront CAPperiod that he had served as recruit in- months.(344) During the that Oswald came to “at lea st 10 or 15 structor, Paradis could recall ts ie was interviewed by FBI agen (489) Interestingly, when Ferr aftermath of President Kennedy’s cn November 25, 1963, in the r witnesses could confirm that never known Oswald and that othemeetings during the period that Oswald had never attended CAP(345) According to the report of his Ferrie was active with the group. “during the period he was com- FBI interview, Ferrie stated that Paradis was the recruit instructo mander of the squadron, Jerry ©. through their training.” (349) and took all the squadron recruits home and business addresses 0 Ferrie supplied the Bureau with the rviewing him. (350) Paradis, so as to aid the agents in inte e on December 15, 1978 (490) In his interview with the committe ng the period in whic structor.(353) Ferrie “was always there” .duri Para dis repeated that h Oswald attended the Lakefron t squa dron ” during which Oswal believed there were “at least 10 or 15 meetings were there beca Ferrie were in the unit together. I know they reme mber Oswald. I I was there.” (355) Further, “I specif ically y, and Ferri e was headi ng the unit then. remember him clearl her, I’m saying. it not saying that they may have been there toget and he had always respected Ferrie, even thoug h Ferrie was som is stated that he had no knowledge what “unusual.” (357) Parad e of the C any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie outsidtheir contact meetings and did not recall anyth ing unusu al about “fairly stern, b the meetings. (358) He recalled that Ferrie was a that Ferrie generally likable” instructor. (359) Paradis also stated called that he had been surp by the FBI following the rised that he was not interviewed Presidents assassination, stating, “TI the committee that he did not Ferrie and Oswald “mean [t] anybelieve the personal contact between lieved that Ferrie “was a bad guy thing really,” and that he never be- or anything like that.” (362) MARGUERITE OSWALD AND SAM TERMINE eed) In examining the backgr family, the committee received ound of Oswald and members of his relationship with another New an account of Marguerite Orleans figure who may have Oswald’s been con- tion in late J anuary 1977, but did not confirm the main elements until hessman in the southwestern part information pertaining to a frie of the country reportedly had ndship between Marguerite Oswsome ald (492) In August 1978, the com an interview with the businessmmittee learned additional details from an and his wife, who stated that did not wish their names to be used they could be confirmed through othe and that they believed their story committee that they had been perr sources, (365) They informed the sonal friends of Mrs. Oswald’s for oayguard while he was actually tate Police. an official position on the State payroll, in the Louisiana in which Termine had received a gold The businessman and his wife ont, they believe late 1969 or told the committee that at some Clal gathering in Waco, earl y 1970 , they attended ub.(372) They had invited thei Tex. at Sam Termine’s a Saturday Executive ’ with them, which she did. (373 r houseguest, Marguerite Oswald, to ) She went with them Incognit o, using 116 ted Marguerite Oswald and said up to the table to greet them spot you,” to which Mrs. Oswald re- a her in a Pec dipeariatiner “T knowThe businessman and his wife told plied, “And I know you, too.” (376) that they were quite sur- (494) The businessman and his wife stated ld because of his well- prised that Termine had known Mrs. Oswa ng the course of the known reputation as a crime figure. (379) Duri that Termine spoke evening, the businessman and his wife recalledOswald’s late brother- extensively of his friendship with Marg ueri te in the underworld in-law, Charles ““Dutz” Murret, of Murret’s role ns, his close assoc iation with racke- gambling activities in New Orlea which he had feer Sam Saia, and the vario us locat ions from man and his wife did not recall that operated.(380) While the business ng the evening Termine and Mrs. Oswa ld spoke of her son Lee duri z” Murre t’s child ren an they did remember Termine speaking of “Dut ione d that other family members. (381) They also recal led that he ment , Tex., in Carlos Marcello had a number of other associates in Waco ved that addition to himself. (382) Termine also told them he belie out “Carlos is legit now. He’s not involved in much anymore. He’s been told of narcotics for years .” (383) Final ly the busi ness man and his wife the committee that they did not know if Mrs. Oswald and Termine metd on any subsequent occasion, though the two had indicated he woul keep in touch.(384) Termine died in March of 1976, at the age of 62. (385) According to the businessman, prior to his death Termine had personally introduced him to Carlos Marcello when the businessman was in New Orleans on business. (386) Termine’s close relationship with the Mafia leader “was very apparent” from their conversation at the time. (387) (495) It was in large part from this information that the committee was subsequently able to confirm and document “Dutz” Murret’s little known involvement in underworld gambling in New Orleans. Addi , businessman and his wife provided other significant an tionallythe reliable information to the committee on other occasions. (496) ‘The New Orleans Crime Commission reported that Termin engaged in a number of illicit activities during his association wit the Marcello organization.(388) He had been involved in vari syndicate gambling and _prostitution activities, as well as in th operation of a motel used for underworld activities that was finall shut down by State authorities. (389) During his years in New Orl and in Waco, Tex., Termine was closely associated with a number the members of the Marcello Mafia family. (390) (497) In a committee interview on October 30, 1978, Margueri Oswald declined to discuss Termine.(391) When asked if she kne 117 him, she mentioned the name of the sout and asked, “Did [she] tell you about thathwestern businessman’s wife upon stated that she would not disc ?” (392) Mrs. Oswald there- uss she believed the committee was enga Termine or anyone else, saying brief interview on November 30, 1978ged in a “cover-up.” (393) In a , about Termine. (394) She stated that Mrs. Oswald was again asked had no specific information about him. she may have known him, but discuss further her background or any (395) She again declined to other aspects of the case. (396) Submitted by: G. Rosrrt Buaxey, Chief Counsel and § tafi Director. Gary T, CoRNWELL, Deputy Chief Counsel. CHAEL Ewina, REFERENCES Lesearcher. (1) Testimony of Mrs. Lilli an Murret, Apr. 6, 1964, Hear dent’s Commission on the ings before the Presi- Assassination of President D.C.: U.S. Government Print Kennedy (Washington, ing Office, 1964), vol. 8, pp. 8 Warren Commission Hearings 117-132 (hereinafter , 117-132). (2) Testimony of Mrs. Margueri te Oswald, Feb. 10, 1964, I sion Hearings, 196-201. Warren Commis- (3) Id. at p. 197. (4) Ibid. (5) Ibid. (6) Interview of Aaron M. Kohn, Aug. 14, 1978, House Ssinations, Select Committee on (7) Ibid. (8) Ibid. (9) Ibid. (10) “The Assassination of President Kennedy,” Metropol ion of New Orleans, Noy. 26, itan Crime Commis- 1968, p. 5. (11) See ref. 2, pp. 227-30. (12) Ee gmony of Marilyn Murret, Apr. 6, 1964, 8 Warr gs, 178. en Commission Hear- (13) See ref. 1, p. 182. (14) Ibid. (15) Id. at p, 124. (16) See ref. 6. (17) Testimony of Edward Voebel, Apr. 7, 1964, 8 Warr ngs, 9-10. en Commission Hear- (18) Ibid. (19) Ibid. (20) See ref, 1, p. 154. (21) Testimony of Mrs. Char les Murret, Apr. 6, 1964, 8 arings, 91-151. Warren Commission (22) Id. at pp. 91-92. (28) Id. at pp. 106-108. (24) Id. at pp. 120-124. (25) Ibid. (26) Id. at D.. 125: .cram ¥ (27) FBI report, Dec. 2, 1963, “Lee Adquarters, interview of Mrs. Harvey Oswald,” New Orleans office Charles Murret. to 83) FBI report, Nov. 30, 1963, Beau “ce Murret O’Brien ; see ref. 21, mont, Tex. office, interview with Mrs, pp. 145-46. 118 rview with John { Lee Harvey Oswald file, inte (34) FBI report, Nov. 30, 1964, Pic. 30, 1978, House Select Com- er ae of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, Oct. mittee on Assassinations. x, 1965), I History” (Farrar, Straus and Girou 3a) a Stafford, “A Mother In pp. 88-89. oiingeaes ‘ (39) Ibid. 7, 1964, 8 Warren Co: ssion Hear- Apr. (40) Testimony of Charles Murret, ings, 180-88. (41) Id. at pp. 180-82. (42) See ref. 3 Dp. ee 3) See ref. 12, p. : House Select Committee GH) Deposition of Mrs. Charles Murret, Nov. 6, 1978, on Assassinations, pp. 8-9. (45) Ibid. House Select Committee on (46) Deposition of Eugene Murret, Nov. 7, 1978, Assassinations, pp. 10-11. (47) Ibid. Select Committee on (48) Deposition of Marilyn Murret, Nov. 7, 1978, House Assassinations, p. 3. (49) See ref. 36. ’ Bureau No. | (50) FBI report, Nov. 3, 1965, New Orleans office, “Sam Saia,” tor, “Sam Saia”; 162-1347 ; FBI report, Dec. 16, 1961, New Orleans SAC to Direc tore Amarena New Orleans Police Department Intelligence Unit Report on Salva ns (aka Paxton), Jan. 17, 1964; Metropolitan Crime Commission of New Orlea on Major Joseph DePaoli of the New Orleans Police Department and Report Sam Saia, Aug. 24, 1955; deposition of Aaron Kohn, New Orleans Crime Com- aon Nov. 7, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 10-11, | and 53. (51) Deposition of Aaron Kohn, Nov. 7, 1978, House Select Committee on) Assassinations, p. 49. (52) Id. at p. 10. (53) FBI report, Nov. 8, 1965, New Orleans office, “Sam Saia,’’ Bureau No. 162-1347. (54) Ibid. | (55) Ibid. (56) FBI report, May 28, 1962, New Orleans office, report by Agent Regis Ken- nedy, “Sam Saia.” (57) Metropolitan Crime Commission of New Orleans Report on Major J seph DePaoli of the New Orleans Police Department and Sam Saia, Aug. 24, 1955 (58) Id. at pp. 7-10. (59) See ref. 59, pp. 10-11. (60) See ref. 44, p. 9. (61) Ibid. (62) See ref. 46, p. 11. (63) See ref. 44, p. 15. (64) Id. at p. 16. (65) Ibid. (66) FBI report, May 6, 1944, New Orleans office, “Re: Crime Survey,” B rean No. 62—-75147-38. (67) Ibid. (68) Ibid. (69) Ibid. (70) Ibid. (71) Ibid. (72) See ref. 44, p. 9, and ref 46, p. 11, (73) Id. at p. 181. (74) See ref. 40, p. 180. (75) See ref. 44, p. 8. (76) New Orleans Times Picayune, Oct. 18, 1964, “Death Claims Sports Fi ure,”; Staff Summary of Review of Metropolitan Crime Commission of Ne ae Noy. 8, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassination. 119 (78) Metropolitan Crime Comm DePaoli of the issi on of New Orleans Report New Orleans Police Departme on Major Joseph (79) Id. at p. 6. nt and Sam Saia, Aug. 24, 1955. (80) Ibid. (81) See ref. 46, pp. 10-11. (82) Ibid. (83) Id. at p. 12. (84) See ref. 51, p. 49. (85) Id. at p. 53. (86) Ibid. (87) “Organized Crime in Inter state Commerce,” Hearings Sommittee to Investigate Orga before the Select nized Crime in Interstate Comm erce, U.S. Senate, xOvernment Printing Office, 1962) ; and ref. 51, p, 53. (88) Deposition of Emile Brun eau, Noy. 6, 1978, House Select Committee on (89) Interview of Mrs. Marina Oswald Porter, Dee. 4, 1978, Hous e Select Com- (90) Priscilla Johnson McMillan, “Marina and /977) p. 412, Lee” (Bantam Books Edition, (91) Interview of Marina Oswa ld Porter, Dec. 4, 1978, House o Assassinations. Select Committee (92) Ibid. (93) Ibid. (94) Ibid. (95) See ref. 36. (96) Ibid. (97) Ibid. (98) Ibid. (99) See ref. 36. (100) Ibid. (101) Ibid. (102) See ref. 2, pp. 197-98. (103) Id. at p. 197. (104) Ibid. (105) Ibid. (106) Ibid. (107) Ibid. (108) Ibid. (109) Interview of Aaron M. Kohn, Dec. 2, 1978, House Select Committee Sassinations, on (110) Ibid. (111) Ibid. (112) Ibid. 113) Ibid. 114) Ibid. 115) Ibid. 116) Ibid. 117) Ibid. 118) Ibid. 119) Ibid. 120) Ibid. 121) Ibid. 122) See ref. 2, pp. 197-98, 123) Ibid. 120 ; and ref. 1, pp. 119, 124-25, 127. (132) See ref. 2, PP. 198, 238 (133) Ibid. (134) See ref. 1, p. 119. (135) Id. at p. 124. (136) Id. at p. 127. (137) See ref. ne 198. at D. : 188) Id. 127; and ref. 2, pp. 198, 233. eat See ref. 1, pp. 119, 124-25, (140) See ref. 109. (141) Ibid. (142) Ibid. e Select Committee nedetto, Nov. 16, 1978, Hous (143) Interview of Frank DiBe on Assassinations. (144) Ibid. (145) Ibid. (146) Ibid. No. 62-109060- David W. Ferrie file, Bureau (147) FBI report, Nov. 26, 1963, F. Ken Orlea ns SAC to Direc tor, “Assassination of President John 1668, New nede tto, Nov. 16, 1978. of Frank DiBe nedy” ; and see ref, 143, interview view. (148) Ibid., DiBenedetto inter (149) See ref. 1, pp. 93-94. (150) Id. at p. 94. (151) Ibid. (152) See ref. 109. (153) Ibid. (154) Ibid. (155) Ibid. (156) Ibid. (157) Ibid. (158) Ibid. (159) Ibia. * | (160) Ibid. Nov. 24, 1978, House Select Committe | e¢ (161) Interview of Lillian Murret, Assassinations. d, Nov. 30, 1978, House Select Comm: (162) Interview with Marguerita Oswal tee on Assassinations. | (163) Ibid. | (164) Ibid. (165) Ibid. on the Assassination of Presid (166) Report of the President’s Commission nment Printing Office, 1964), D. n, D.C.: U.S. Gover Kennedy (Washingto report , Nov. 27, 1963, intervie n Repor t; FBI (hereinafter cited as Warre Joseph Ehrlicker, “David W. Ferrie ” file. of Joseph Bhriic ker, “David (167) FBI report, Nov. 27, 1963, interview Ferrie’’ file. (168) See ref 2, p. 199. (169) Warren Report, p. 679. Nov. 26, 1963, Warren Commiss (170) FBI interview of David W. Ferrie, s to Director and Dallas, Nov. nt 75; FBI airtel, from New Orlean Docume 1968, David W. Ferrie file. Times Picayune coverage of New (171) New York Times and New Orleans on’s invest igation of the Kennedy assas leans District Attorney Jim Garris on, “A Heritage Of Stone,” Pu an eee 1967—March 1969; Jim Garris 70). 1963, Warren Commis (172) FBI interview of David W. Ferrie, Nov. 26, o, Jan. 11, 1978, H Document 75; immunized testimony of Carlos Marcell Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 64-65, 67-70. 25, 1968, David W. Ferrie fil ih BRE interview of Jack S. Martin, Nov. id. Warren Co (175) FBI interview of David W. Ferrie, Nov. 26, 1963, Nov. 25, 1963, David W. Doar 75; FBI interview of Jack S. Martin, e. (176) Ibid. (177) Ibid. (178) Ibid. 121 (179) FBI interview of Jack §S. Martin, Noy. 25, 1963, David (180) Ibid. W. Ferrie file. (181) Ibid. (182) Ibid. (183) Ibid. (184) Ibid. (185) Ibid. (186) Ibid. (187) Ibid. (188) Ibid. (189) Ibid. (190) FBI interview of David W. Ferrie, Noy. 26, 1963, Warren Document 75. Commission (191) Ibid. (192) Ibid. (193) Ibid. (194) Ibid. (195) Ibid. (196) Ibid. (197) Ibid. (198) Ibid. (199) Ibid. (200) Secret Service report, Dec. 13, 1963, New Orleans Office, Agent xerrets, Warren Commission Doc Anthony ument 87. (201) Ibid. (202) Ibid. (203) Ibid. (204) FBI interview of Jack S. Marti n, Noy. 25, 1963, David W. Ferri (205) Secret Service report, Dec. e file, 13, 1968, New Orleans office, Agent errets, Warren Commission Docum Anthony ent 87, (206) Ibid. (207) Ibid. (208) FBI airtel from New Orlea ns to Director and Dallas office, avid W. Ferrie file. Noy. 28, 1963, (209) Ibid. (210) Ibid. (211) Ibid. (212) FBI statement of David W. Ferrie, Dec. 10, 1963, Agen avid W. Ferrie file. t Regis Kennedy, (213) Ibid. (214) Ibid. (215) See ref. 172, Marcello testi mony, pp. 63-70. (216) FBI interview of Edward Voebel, Noy, 25, 1963, David (217) Ibid. W. Ferrie file. (218) Ibid. (219) Warren report, p. 679; see ref, 17, pp. 1-15. (220) FBI interview of Edwa rd Voebel, Noy. 25, 1963, Davi -arren report, p. 679. d W. Ferrie file ; (221) See ref, 17, pp. 1-15; and Warr en report, p. 679. (222) See ref. 2, p. 199. 99 (223) See ref. 42.°D. 161, (224) FBI interview of Edward Voebel, Noy. 25, 1968, David W. Ferrie file. 229) FBI reinterview of Edwa 230) Ibid rd Voebel, Nov. 25, 1963, Davi d W. Ferrie file. fe=105 0 - 79- 9 122 Director, Nov. 26, 1963, David W. Ferrie (239) FBI airtel from New Orleans to nt report, Nov. 27, B 1963, “Interoffice Cor- ar New Orleans Police Departme of Serge ant H. Austi n and Detective R. Frey on interview — Bee a Be repor t with Edward Voebe l. (241) ibid. (242) Ibid. | (243) Ibid. Ho. ial (OE (244) Ibid. Alan Belmon a 7 1963, Alex Rosen to (245) FBI memorandum, Nov. 29, Ferrie file. (246) See ref. 17, pp. 1-15. (247) Id. at p. 14. (248) Id. at pp. 2-3. (249) Ibid. (250) Id. at p. 5. (251) Id, at p. 14. (252) lvid. Voebel, Oct. 24, 1978, House Select Committee on (253) Interview 0 f Sidney Assassinations. (254) Ibid. (255) Ibid. (256) Ibid. W. Ferrie file. (257) FBI interview of Alvin Meister, Nov. 25, 1968, David W. Ferrie file. (258) FBI interview of Harold Toole, Nov. 25, 1963, David (259) Ibid. Ferrie file. (260) FBI interview of Joseph Ehrlicker, Nov. 27, 1963, David W. (261) Ibid. (262) Ibid. (263) Ibid. (264) Ibid. (265) Ibid. (266) FBI interview of David Ferrie, Nov. 26, 1963 report, David W. Ferri Commission Document 75. a file; Warren (267) FBI statement of David Ferrie, Dec. 10, 1963, Agent Regis Kennedy David W. Ferrie file. (268) Interviews of Fred O’Sullivan, Oct. 17, 1978 and Dec. 15, 1978, Ho | Select Committee on Assassinations. . a (269) Ibid. mf (270) FBI memorandum of Nov. 25, 1968, Agent Regis Kennedy, David ¥ Ferrie file. (971) FBT interview of Fred O’Sullivan, Nov. 25, 1963, David W. Ferrie file. ; (272) Ibid. ; (273) Thid. (274) Ibid. 4: (275) Ibid. Mei (276) Ibid. | (277) Ibid. , ! ~ Fe the interview of Fred O’Sullivan, Nov. 26, 1963, David W. Ferrie file. q (280) Ibid. r (281) Ibid. (282) Interview of Fred O’Sullivan, Oct. 17, 1978, House Select Committeeon Assassinations. i} (283) Ibid. ry (284) Interview of Fred O’Sullivan, Dec. 15, 1978, House Select Committeeon Assassinations. 7 (285) Interview of Collin Hamer, Dec. 9, 1978, House Select Committee 0 Assassinations, (286) Thbid. (287) Thid. (288) Ibid. (289) Thid. (290) Ibid. (291) Ibid. (292) Ibid. 123 (293) Ibid. (294) Ibid. (295) Ibid. (296) Ibid. (297) Ibid. (298) Ibid. (299) Interview of Mrs. Glady s Durr, Sept. 29, 1978, Hous on Assassinations. e Select Committee Nee een interview of Mrs. Gladys Durr, Noy. 25, 1968, Davi 301) Ibid. d W. Ferrie file. (302) FBI interview of J oseph Ehrlicker, Noy. 27, 1963, Davi (303) FBI interview of Mrs. d W. Ferrie file. Gladys Durr, Noy. 25, 1968, David (304) FBI interview of J oseph W. Ferrie file. Ehrlicker, Noy. 27, 1963, David (305) See ref. 140, W. Ferrie file. (306) Ibid. (307) Ibid. (308) Ibid. (309) Ibid. (310) Interview of John Irion, Oct. 18, 1978, House Select Committee Assassinations. on (311) Ibid. (312) Ibid. (313) New Orleans Times Picayune, May 30, 1968; see ref. 310. (314) Ibid., Irion interview. (315) Ibid. (316) Ibid. (317) Ibid. (318) Ibid. (319) Ibid. (320) Interview of Anthony Atzenhoffer, Oct. 16, 1978, House Select Committee 1 Assassinations. (321) Ibid. (822) Ibid. - (323) Ibid. (324) Ibid. (325) Ibid. - (326) Ibid. (327) Ibid. (328) Ibid. (329) See ref. 320. (830) Ibid. (331) Interview of George Boesch, Oct. 5, 1978, House sSassinations. Select Committee on (832) Ibid. (333) Ibid. (334) Ibid. (835) Ibid. (336) Ibid. (837) Ibid. (338) Ibid. (339) Ibid. (340) Ibid. (341) Ibid. (342) Interview of Jerry C. Paradis, Dec, 15, 1978, House Select Committee _ Assassinations. 843) Ibid. 844) Ibid. 845) Ibid. 346) Ibid. 847) FBI interview of David Ferrie, Nov. 26, 1963, David : _ Commission Document 75. W. Ferrie file, War- 848) Ibid. 849) Ibid. 850) Thid. 351) See ref. 342. 124 (852) Ibid. (353) Ibid. (854) Ibid. (355) Ibid. (356) Ibid. (357) Ibid. (358) Ibid. (359) Ibid. (360) Ibid. (361) Ibid. (862) Ibid. 27, 1979, House (363) Staff memorandum on Sam Turmani (aka Termine), Jan. Select Committee on Assassinations. | (364) Ibid. (365) Interview of southwestern businessman and wife, Aug. 8, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations. (366) Ibid. (367) Ibid. (368) Ibid. (369) Ibid. ($70) Ibid. (371) Ibid. (372) Ibid. (373) Ibid. (874) Ibid. (375) Ibid. (376) Ibid. (377) Ibid. ($78) Ibid. (379) Ibid. (380) Ibid. (381) Ibid. (382) Ibid. (383) Ibid. (384) Ibid. (385) Ibid. (386) Ibid. (387) Ibid. (388) See ref. 109. (389) Ibid. (390) Ibid. (391) See ref. 36. (392) Ibid. (393) Ibid. (394) See ref. 36. (395) Ibid. (396) Ibid. V. POSSIBLE ASSOCIATIONS BETWEEN JACK RUBY AND ORGANIZED CRIME CONTENTS Paragraph A. The shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald: Relationship with the Dallas Police abs Departments. canwewep onus basinasacs ie BOM CAO BOI ee uby’s friendships with police officers-______-_-----.-................ (738) Ruby, and. Oleer sTippit. 224 2452 ke ene {s rs Tava god... P18) Possible, police department-favorius/) ict. a fae leone unday,,.November.24,- 19682201 yt rt ie bebe eb A. ote 3. Organized crime’s move to Po estGm gk CS ee ee Be. briberyatteniptiosss poe eis Ma ISd0Is Te BG pes Rubyeneieged-involvementtLecscnaace | Bene TT {650 reatment by the Warren Commission.__-__________-_____...__._. Treatment-by:the,rommitteezen.. an Mesliua lagaegom (6 = muenvy 8 -activities involving-Cubgunc.uu-. Jo Tripe.to.-Cabiaa, eee awetire Lesitcew ORE wine Ingeuk TT Statements-by/Rubysicsiie.cl yard We ew aan ise Tor Tt Cy and Secret Service interviews_____________....._._...... Warren Commission testimony....___________..-_........... ( ) Other statomentaececnen fas ian poe eget ge ye ore, bee Statements by Lewis J. McWillie______--__--____.._....... - ~~~ (677 and Warren Commission investigation___.______........_. Statements to the committee_____-._____________________~~ 677 Statements ‘by. Tony.Zoppi.viioe ~~ 684 soaes mun) teetrea ar rte 705 Statements by Santos Trafficante_________-_.__._......_._~7 Paskinallegation...- 7777 710 2.10) 09 SW 0ns Bee momen SRO Seas Information provided by the Cuban Governments (713) Handwritiierandlysinsi. Sees ge irae 2kver OF) 10 Seaas soctagen SS 726 Other-Informations 022 Sect o8 ee OTIS REN IG AnAlysle cee n ToT a en (728 erat tot Meaats Ret Tee tale Te Other Cuban-related activities and allegations 737) : Civcowsd 41bcidentlee Dts Ae Be) CO, SRE Treatment by the Warren ESOT ow fo ra} get Tie een Sete Sg 743) Additional statements by McKeown__________._..._._..~ Other statements regarding McKeown___--_--__....~...~.7~ ~~~ (751 Inconsistencies in the McKeown Se ~~ (760 ADSI ES tanned pemieareenes ae Gules rer es RN | (765) Thomas.Hi. Dayid; p11, allegatiqni¢s: SE TWO A sera (766) <8 ls tenon (768) MALY ELS arene nrerae Benet eT ORS Meeting “with. the-Nox-brothers.=0.) TTTT (776) 000 07 Uidergh ant -<------== (777) arlcRubytoleram to -Havane \ces aes tae nT CITT (782) Ruby’s familiarity with the Fair Play for ancy. SPerriniRiclinallerd tlontle Cuba Committee__________ 787 . Ruby’s telephone records from aon asia eons Cae ees ETC TTT 788 ok eg aa 2 nee eo SPE ER EO Analysis by the Warren Commiagon- 794) Review by the select COMI ELGG cette rz IRENE 2. ' Seoy Sah} Sees ene f 7a Methodology, inn SOMME La. SALI R Oo EARN oo ae ea 796 Nature: of:the calle sip gh TORE O TS ne aere (798 si sce Sa) wee Oe aR TE TT Te Analysissf.the.calle picossuiyr (801 Labor difficulties with the American Guild ele Ga aes (808 Profiles of Jack Ruby-“associa toy se ige'- of Variety Artists, early 1960’s____ (831) se Lene Se | URE REO, oS Ts, PRMOAMEOD. «inci SO an Eo Oot ee Bhs Bee} ame aN ye ene 865 i, Andrew Arms'rong, Jr. Biographical SUMMATY Oooo ie na map iet Sharements by Armstrong. enema die. (868) | Deposition before the House SelectAdesss s Sanae eee te ar (870) Committee on Assas- Aina HOmeneeAG.) HST he OBS I guou ii. Robert Bernard eee (886) Baker Biographical RUM MOT ne on meters en Treatment by the Warren COmmMIagiOn ne emanncke te. (887 The committee’s investigation________1_~ oa Jee (890 wpe cape 777777777777 7777 (891 hg Ge i ae fapre ce, es EN Illegal activities and association with Io (891 Relationship with organized crime__ (505) ‘Ruby..-2--/000 eT Deposition taken by the House (905 Select Committee on Assas- sinations 0 yee ee A"hee ohCharshiesh cata tns SEEansonanowsors sce (907) 126 ed y associates—Continu F’. Profiles of Jack Rub Paragraph » nued ii. Joseph Camplsl | mary_—--------2nc 2m ----~ Introduction—Conti (908) Commission-------- ------ee (O17) Meaatnient, BY he Pearse 2nnn2- ow—-- ea UD (923) ‘Uh na- Select Committee on Assassi j y -»James ou sara As80et Honerore the Fiouse Henry Dolans: Biographical summary----------- SOT TAIOSeM cs 2 ff) "TS, LUC, SAE -------"-"" 77777777 eaSe (O41) (954) Illegal activities------------ re 3-8S=2 ee—S— ee eee (954) Organized crime conn eCtiON === "79" ===,... .-=-- (956) Connections with Trafficante. --- (39) Marcel lo---- ------ ------ Connections with Carlos (960) Other connections-—~-=---= 4-9 a== oe) 2-2----=--2=----=< ==-= Association with Jack Ruby Commission------------------~ (89) Treatment by she Warren -$- $5 = e e | formation__------- (970) ' Select Committee on Assas- a cerlaee with Dolan by House ---=-- 99 sinations’ staff .----------- (971) vy. Alexander Phillip Gruber --------99 777799 Biographical summary—--~- i -----------=------"""" The committee’s investigation._--- a_o---- =e f Relati onship wan Buby note e arren Commission----------------=-— tment b on As- Select Committee (985) Deposition or Gruber by House | === --= --- ser ==== sassinations staff------- (986 vi. Paul Roland Jones --99— 9 s (OL Biographical summary------------- --= --= sess <-= nnn = ' Legal activities. --------- ---------------- (1021) Illegal activities and organized crime- 1051) ----- ssn Relationship with Ruby---~---------- ----------------- ( Treatment by the Warren Commission_- i084 vii. Russell Douglas Matthews Faced Biographical summary---~-~----~-~-<------ 99 1 Oeotl zion__ ------ ------ ----- Treatment by the Warren Commis nar nnn 3-$s=--4 -=-- s<3+nnn i108 Legal activities_..._----- --------=- "== =---= ee Illegal activities___------- ----- -------------=-"- ( 09 Organized crime connections___---------- -------------=--— - (1 : Relationship with Ruby-------------- ------- --- (10 Associates known by both-_- ------- ------- -—-——- (1101) Other information__—~~-~--=-+~=+-+--2++--+--===- House Select Committ ee on Assas- Deposition taken by the sect. (1104) oor rae armunainn stot viii. Robert Ray McKeown summary-----~-------------~-------------- (1105) Biographical Treatment by, the Warren Commission__---------------- (1111) Legal activiti es___.___--------------------------------= ---- (1121 Illegal activities____._-_-_---------------------------- ------- (1128 Connections with organized crime---------------- --- Relationship to Ruby_.----------------------------- Ruby’s version —~_-----.------------------=--=------ McKeown’s version.__-..------~~------------------=- Inconsistencies ~~ __.-_.-_.----~--~----~--=--------- Relationship to Oswald__..---------------------------- Warren Commission response____-------------------- (1150 Inconsistencies ix. Lewis J. McWillie Biographical summary__--._---------------~------------ (1153 Treatment by the Warren Commission------------------- ‘ Illegal activities___._.__._._-----------.----------------- Relationship with Ruby__-------------~----------------- x. Lawrence V. Meyers Biographical summary..—___~~~2-=------ <=45- SS =-=== Treatment by the Warren Commission.___-__-------------- (118¢ Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assas- sinations i;-Leonerd-Patrick=-" ">" ccnlek od eine Biographical summary—_~-__--.-._-.----+-------------- Treatment by the Warren Commission Illegal activities and organized crime___----------------- Activities in 1968 -ceesee ee eee ee Other illegal activities ( pe in and connections involving organized Association with Ruby_.._..-_.-_-_-___. ns a ee Deposition taken by the House Select Committee on Assas- sinations aiRAMH Hany --es PEcss ees le ae ee Biographical summary Association with Ruby ee ee me a ew ee Oe ee eee 127 F. Profiles of Jack Ruby associates—Continued Introduction—Continued xiii. George Senator Biographical SUMMA Yow a- se Paragraph ecco sole eid ee! fo (1294) BLetcinenty Uy Senator oo-_ lat Figure 1: Chart of statements by Senato Lemcmeee Wat iT ean nT ac (1299) ee et r and their incon- xiv. aE CE ERA L ELT LORI James Robert Todd TSI (1323) Biographicat PUA Mary St pipes e te e tie let ae 3 on (1324) ACU Vitieg vest oe a oe rae Association with organized crime_.oL. Bethy eae Ho (3a8) Treatment by the Warren Commission=_. iLL lll (1328 Relationship with 1 £8% 4 3 pce ene, (13373 SS AI, Ca TS etceadanK baghaad (1331 eposition betore the House Select Committee on Assas- ctl eR NN I aga PIE Xv Irwin Signey Weiner bona oi ag (1340) Biographical SRD ALY cewie eer Treatment by the Warren Commi recret Ot \ ne (ie4a) Testimony before the COMMITBEEssion__________.__..__.~ (1343 xecutive session testimony before LOR Rati oto trig cers. (1359) head the House Select Com- G. Jack Ruby chronologies :Ta eeeneeinations. &. t 1940-64 and November 22-24, eoGude w sian | 3865) Ok nd O OS re 1963_______________~ Ett} Seer Roos oe ee een ee ee November Fis? Stel) 68. teas ee 6 iol ett od apgona a7 8 Fae es TastG (1367) A. Tue SHoottne or Ler Harvey Oswatp: RELATIONSHIP WITH THE Datuas Porice DEPARTMENT * RUBY’S FRIENDSHIPS WITH POLICE OFFICERS 449) Ruby took great pride in and ips with Dallas police officers. He has thor oughly enjoyed his friend- been described as an individual ho loved police officers, (6) was a “poli or authority (8) and was “keenly interce buff,”(7) had great respect ork.”(9) The relationship was both colle ested in policemen and their “lented. “I have always been very close ctively and individually to ‘uby stated in 1964, “I don’t know why.”(10 the police department,” ) As part of this closeness, ‘uby offered his friends what he could: a free table, a few beers, stening ear. a 00) Ruby told the Federal Bureau of yhad never given money or other things Investigation (FBI) that len he gave of value to officers except out bottles of whiskey as “actice may have occurred at other times, Christmas gifts. (11) This at policemen were seen going into Rubysince it has been reported ‘Tousel (one of Ruby’s nightclubs) and ’s private office in the ES leaving with bottles of *Prepared by Donald A. Purdy, Jr., senior staff counsel and Howard rch attorney. Shapiro, 128 whiskey.(12) Further, Ruby brought refreshmen ts to officers working igations, (12) a practice at headquarters during major eriminal invest ng Friday night, illustrated by his offer of sandwiches to officers worki bough t two officers November 22, 1963.(24) On anoth er occasi on, Ruby dinner s at a restau rant near the Carous el,(75 ) and an late-night steak FBI that when employee of an all-night restaurant in Dalla s told the t, he would pick up the checks of all Dalla s polic emen Ruby was presen in the restaurant. (16) it « ~ usual (501) Ruby was also generous at his nightclubs, waiving atthereduced cover charge and providing beer and mixed drinks to officers Joey prices or for free,(77) and perhaps coffee and sandwiches.(18) Gerard, an enterta iner who worked at the Carous el occasio nally, re- marked that Ruby always had a pot of coffee at the end of the bar, and officers would congregate there.(19) Another Carousel employee said that policemen had free access to the kitchen where they could help themselves to food.(20) Ruby wrote, “The police always were free to use my private office to make calls.”(2) Perhaps this “hospitality was not unusual for a Dallas nightclub opérator,”(22) and possibly other burlesque clubs had similar policies for policemen, (23) but the aedpe of Ruby’s actions seems unusual. One ex-employee of Ruby’s told the FBI that he would have a “celebrity night” at the club every Sunday night, where he would entertain as many as eight law enforcement officers and give them steak dinners and drinks.(24) Ruby suggested that these gestures, in spite of the difficulties he sometimes encountered in making a profit,(25) were to be viewed as a manifestation of his concern for the financial status of Dallas police officers. Police salaries were low and officers had little money to spend for personal entertainment. (26) (502) When Officer L. C. Mullinax was killed while on duty in 1962, Ruby was reportedly deeply affected, grieving over the death for sev- eral days.(27) He attended the funeral(28) and forced several strippers-employees to do so.(29) Afterwards, Ruby gave $150 to the officer’s widow, even though the light bill at his club was in ar- rears.(30) Reportedly, Ruby staged a benefit performance for the widow of another slain policeman. (31) Earl Ruby told the committee that his brother once gave a policeman several hundred dollars to cover the cost of his wife’s pregnancy. (32) (503) Intimations have been made that Ruby made payoffs to DPD members for protection and to avoid being closed down for liquor or other violations, (33) There is, however, no significant documentation of this,(34) and Police Chief Jesse Curry commented that payofis were most unlikely because there was no need for Ruby to pay any police officer.(35) Although, in 1963, Ruby told a boyhood friend that he had had to make small payoffs to unidentified city officials when he first came to Dallas, he had discontinued this practice because Dallas had become an extremely clean city vis-a-vis vice activities. (36) (504) Similarly, a belief has arisen that Ruby was an informant for the police, Although the idea of Ruby asa registered DPD informant has been thoroughly disavowed by Chief Curry (37) and questioned by other officers,(38) several policemen have stated that they received in- formation from Ruby which led to arrests and aided investigations. Detectives Joe Cody and A. M. Eberhardt, who were partners, men- 129 tioned a number of specific instances when Ruby gave them tion leading to arrests.(39) Officer J. Herbert Sawyer informa- told committee that he had heard that Ruby had passed on informthe select various officers, but that the information had been of littleation to tance. (40) Detective Cody stated that a phone call from Ruby impor- quarters was not an uncommon event, and whoever Ruby to head- knew was on es yal time was given the opportunity to receive a criminal ead. (41 (505) Civilians were also aware of Ruby’s tendencies to formation. One of his employees said that Ruby was furnisprovide in- hing crim- inal information to police officers, (42) Bobby Simons, a musici periodically played at Ruby’s clubs, said that Ruby was a “fink.” an who (506) Ruby promoted and enjoyed the camaraderie and compan (43) ship of individual officers, making a point of using an officer’ ion- name.(44) Ruby knew quite a few of the names of the approximatel s first 1,200 men on the force in 1963. (45 ) Although a definite count y possible, there can be no doubt that Chief Curry’s statement was not was known by no more than 50 DPD employees was incorre that Ruby Jack Revill, an officer for over 20 years, stated in 1978: ct. (46) I would say that those officers who knew Jack Ruby nonuniform personnel, with the exception of the officerswere as- signed to various beats where his clubs were geographical ly located. Consequently, we are talking about members of the vice section, narcotics section, the intelligence section, ap- proximately 60 men in that Bureau. Members of the burgla ry and theft unit would probably have known Jack Ruby. members of homicide and robbery may have known him. Some we are probably speaking in the area of 100 to 150 people, So ficers, who would have known Jack Ruby, and this includof- ed uniform officers also. (47) (507) . Detective Eberhardt stated that Ruby “knew just about body,” (48) and a majority of DPD members interviewed in every- subsequently have admitted to being acquainted with Ruby 1963 and or having been in one of his clubs. Almost all knew of him as a Dallas business- nan and nightclub owner. (49) (508) Detective E. E. Carlson was a close friend of Ruby’s,(50) Aaps as the result of an incident in 1954 when Carlson and his per- partner, Jflicer D. L. Blankenship, were outnumbered and endangered ae beer bottles in an altercation in or near one of Ruby’s clubs, by fly- Silver Spur. According to Detective Kberhardt, Ruby was the always *eady to defend police honor: “If an officer got in trouble around dlace, he would help him.” (57 ) On this occasion, Ruby interceded his and abled the two officers to come out relatively unscathed. (52) Detec- ve Carlson commented that he felt a strong sense of gratitude Ruby asa result of this event. (53 ) toward (509) Lieutenant George C. Arnett told the FBI that he vell acquainted with Ruby. (54) Officer Harry N. Olsen was was very f another Ruby’s better friends, in part because he dated (and eventua married) a Carousel stripper, Kay Coleman. (55) Olsen told the lly “en Commission that he would talk to Ruby and try to War- calm him down vhen he got mad.(56) Ruby also spent some time (possibly over an 130 and his future hour) on Friday night, November 992, 1963, with Olsen | ife. (57 close friend s of si) rates Eberhardt and Cody were also s club almost j Ruby. Detective Eberhardt stated that he visited Ruby’ that he had in- every night when he was on the night shift, (58) and to his home for the christ ening of his child, born in ~i vited Ruby ice skating — 1963.($9) Detective Cody has said that he and Ruby went that Ruby was an avid hockey fan.(60 ) Lieute nant — together, adding — James R. Gilmore, a frequent visitor to Ruby’s clubs due to his duties on the vice squad, (6) was said by Sam Ruby, J ack’s brother, to have 1 been very friendly with Ruby.(62) Others made similar statements to the FBI following the Oswald shooting.(63) é (511) It is unclear whether Ruby cultivated friendships with DPD senior officers. Captain Will Fritz, the head of homicide, strongly de- nied knowing Ruby,(64) saying that the first time he saw Ruby was > when Ruby was arrested following the Oswald shooting (65)and that he had had to ask who he was.(66) Others were not so sure. Robert Lee Shoreman, a musician sometimes employed by Ruby, stated that an older detective by the last name of Fritz frequented the Carousel during one period.(67) Travis Kirk, an attorney familiar with the Dallas law enforcement scene (he worked in the district attorney’s office for 6 years) opined that Captain Fritz and Ruby had to have known each other, although he had never seen them together. Kirk stated that Captain Fritz was a “domineering, dictatorial officer pos- sessing photographic memory,” and he would certainly have known any nonlaw enforcement persons who had access to headquarters (68) which Ruby did. (69) (512) Alfred Davidson, who was befriended by Ruby in the autumn of 1963, said that Ruby was casually acquainted with the chief of police and other high-level officers.(70) Reagan Thurman, a long-time friend of Ruby’s, said the same. (77) (513) Despite Ruby’s many police friendships, incidents similar to Detective Cody’s ice-skating account were rare, as almost all DPD- Ruby encounters took place in his clubs or at police headquarters. (72) There was an allegation that Ruby had been seen riding in squad cars,(73) and Eva Grant, Ruby’s sister, told the Warren Commission that some officers had been out to Ruby’s apartment. (74) RUBY AND OFFICER TIPPIT (514) It is unclear whether Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit. Ruby stated that he did not.(75) Others, however, have said that Ruby did know Tippit or that Tippit had frequented Ruby’s club(s),(76) some- times also alleging a possible conspiracy.(77) Andy Armstrong, @ Carousel employee, told the FBI that when Ruby heard the news of Tippit’s shooting on Friday afternoon while at the Carousel, he in- dicated he knew Tippit. (78) ‘ (515) Ata later date, Ruby told Armstrong that the Tippit he knew was another man on the force and not the one killed.(79) There were three men on the force who pronounced their names similarly, although q | } there were minor spelling differences, (80 acquainted with Detective Gayle M. Tiopit (81) Ruliy sadiaxtadetamal 131 POSSIBLE POLICE DEPARTMENT FAVORS (516) An important question is whether Ruby received anything in return for his friendship and whatever favors he bestowed, beyond personal satisfaction and vicarious feelings. Tangible rewards are ifficult to ascertain and appear to be minimal. Ruby said he never asked for any special favors from any police personnel,(82) a con- tention echoed by Theodore Fleming, an officer who knew Ruby and left the force in March 1963. (83) (517) Nevertheless, Ruby seems to have been able to avoid minor legal and criminal difficulties, difficulties which should have followed from Ruby’s violent character.(84) In 1961, a stripper known as Najada was allegedly slapped by Ruby. She immediately went over to a lieutenant or captain of the DPD vice squad who was in the Jarousel at the time, saying she wanted to press charges. The officer ‘aughed at her in Ruby’s presence and told her she was crazy.(85) (518) In February 1963, Ruby assaulted Don Tabon at the Adolphus Hotel, injuring his eye.(86) The incident was treated similarly. Tabon 1aving filed a complaint against Ruby, received a phone call from a DPD detective who suggested he drop the matter. (87) Tabon did not 1eed this advice, but Ruby was acquitted on the assault charge. (88) (519) Ruby may have been able to get traffic tickets taken care f.(89) Sam Ruby recalled that at one time Ruby and/or his sister, &va Grant, had six tickets outstanding, and a warrant was issued. A sleutenant Shakespeare took care of the matter. (90) (520) When Ruby hired a new exotic dancer, he was able to use his IPD contacts to determine the true age of the dancer (he wanted to woid underage employees) and whether she had a criminal record or vas involved in drugs or prostitution.(97) Had there been evidence £ such involvement, the vice squad would have advised Ruby to fire 132 s policemen have stated unday morning in the DPD basement. Dalla (102) and that he had lt Hs Raby was eect visitor to seatbe nightclub owner told the “entr ee” to the build ing.( 103) One Dalla s spent time at headquar- FBI that it was common knowledge that Ruby Lt. James Gilmore g this, ters almost every day. (104) Contradictin headquarters and that he only came there in order ies to take care of busi- have follow ed inquir to DPD person- ness.(105) Vehement denials and information. nel concerning Ruby’ s possib le access to police files (106) SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 1963 onship (523) Ruby’s access to headquarters, and his friendly relati ation with the Dallas police, regardl ess of its nature, has led to specul that he received assistance in entering the police basement on cae morning, November 24. No person has been able or willing to state wit. certainty that he saw Ruby enter the basement. (107) , (524) ‘The FBI(108) and the DPD (throu gh a special investi gative anit) (109) conducted inquiries into Ruby’s entry. The Warren Com- mission was privy to these materials and itself interviewed numerous: individuals. As a result, the Commission had information from virtu- ally everyone involved in Oswald’s transfer and everyone in the vicin- ity of the basement.(710) More information has been elicited in the 15 years since 1963 and during the course of the committee’s investigation. (525) The access route that the Warren Commission concluded was “probable” (111) and which the DPD investigative unit characterized as a “reasonable certainty” (172) was the route given by Ruby during several, but not all, interviews after the shooting.(113) It begins wit n Ruby walking down Main Street, away from the Western Union office where he had just sent a money order to an employee, and toward the Main Street ramp entrance to the Dallas police basement. Ruby sensed the commotion and noticed a police car leaving the basement via the ramp. He saw a patrolman on guard at the ramp moving away from his post to direct the car into traffic.(1/4) While this occurred, he turned from the Main Street sidewalk into the ramp. Someone maj have hollered at him in an attempt to stop him, but he ducked his head and kept going.(715) Moments later, he shot Lee Harvey Oswald. The basement may be diagramed as follows: | St : me Wut eS STAIRS UP co ELEVATORS SERVICE ELEV s a OSWALD |, t 2 a . SHOT HERE |" Si BOTH CARS, > 1983 FORD GALAXIE . . iS: 4-DOOR SEDANS [] - 4 a og S a CHIEF PARKING PARKING AREA uP a a B Ed) a s COMPARTMENTED EQUIPMENT ARMORED TRUCK AREA RAIL g-——-—- -—“a- — -—4% hace FIRST FLOOR OUTSIDE WALL SIDEWALK ~—— TO ENGINE ROOM SIDEWALK i (SUB BASEMENT) BASEMENT WALL COMMERCE STREET COMMISSION EXHIBIT NO. 2179 oe RR - JFK - - -Sb8A 134 police officers directly in- (526) The statements and testimony of the natio n. Patrolman Roy E. volved did not corroborate Ruby’s expla Main Street ramp en- Vaughn was the officer assig ned to guar d the ed away from his position trance, and he stated that even when he stepp , he was still able to see to assure the police car safe ingre ss to the street (1/6) Patrolma n the ramp, and saw nobody go down it at the time. ) He was deemed Vaughn’s assertion has not chan ged in 15 years . (117 al days after the truthful in a polygraph examination given him sever ingly let Ruby Oswald shooting, when he averred that he had not know mony, Chief go down the ramp.(7/8) In his Warren Commission testi hn, but Curry placed the blame for Ruby’s entry on Patr olma n Vaug may have been inadv erten t, that Ruby may “ntimated that the error have slipped by without Patrolman Vaughn’s realizing it. (79) ’s (527) The recollections of other police witnesses contradict Ruby enter ing from the ramp. Lt. Rio Samu el Pierc e was the drive r of the car on the ramp, and he stated he did not see Ruby and was unaware that anyone went down the ramp in the timespan. (120) Similarly, his two passengers, Sgt. James Putnam and Sgt. Billy Joe Maxey, did not notice any attempt by anyone to enter from the ramp (121 ); both men commented that the narrowness of the ramp would make it extremely difficult for a person to slip by when a car was exiting. (122) Both Lieutenant Pierce and Sergeant Putnam were “positive” that no one entered the ramp at this time. (123) (528) Sgt. Don Flusche did not have any official assignments related to Oswald’s transfer to the county jail, but he was standing diagonally across from the Main Street ramp on the opposite side of the street during the period in question. He told the committee in 1978 that he saw the car exit the ramp.(/24) He also recalled the obvious commotion caused by the basement shooting. There was no doubt in his mind that Ruby did not walk down the ramp and, fur- ther, did not walk down Main Street anywhere near the ramp. (125) His information was not known or considered by the Warren Com- mission or the DPD investigative unit. After learning of it in 1978, Capt. Jack Revill.(126) a member of the unit, stated, “So if that be true, then maybe Ruby did not enter the basement that way. It tends a oe the findings of the investigative team I was assigned 0. (529) Detective W. J. “Blackie” Harrison was standing in the base- ment and said that he saw Lieutenant Pierce’s car go up the ramp and stop at the ramp entrance for a very short time. He did not see Ruby omnesSoom ee Hoe ieee! His pee was deemed truthful whe allas him.(220) Police p tment admin Depar i tered; a polygraph test t minis 530) Lieutenant Pierce, (130) Sergeant Maxey, (131) Detectiv Harrison (7/32) and Sergeant Flusche (133) all eae by sight which should reinforce their statements. Patrolman Vaughn h encountered Ruby several times on police business, (134) and told th Warren Commission in 1964 that he “knew” the man, (135) althoug’ he told the FBI in December 1963 that he doubted that he woul recognize Ruby if he saw him on the street.(136) In 1977, Patrolma Vaughn told recognize him,the committee that (187) at h he definitely i knew Ruby and woul 135 (531) Several officers stationed in the basement have stated ing the period encompassing Lieutenant Pierce’s departure that dur- Oswald shooting, they may have glanced toward the Main and the ramp at various times without consistently focusing on the Street area. has said he saw Ruby or any other individual come down None ramp. (738) the (532) Civilian witnesses have also stated that nobody went the ramp when Lieutenant Pierce’s car drove out. Terrence McGarr down a UPI reporter covering the transfer, told the FBI that he was y, bottom of the Main Street ramp, in the middle, and nobody at the down the ramp during the 5 minutes preceding the shootin came (5383) Harry Tasker, a cabdriver, had been hired by a g. (139) reporter to ‘wait outside the police station in readiness for a quick depart ure when Oswald was en route to the county jail. Like Sergeant Flusche, ‘was on Main Street, across from the ramp, and he declare Tasker one resembling Ruby entered the basement (via the ramp) d that no 5 minutes before the shooting. (140) in the (534) Napoleon J. Daniels, a former member of the Dallas Department,(741) had gone down to police headquarters Police 11:00 a.m. to watch the transfer of Oswald, He saw Patrolman at about at the top of the Main Street ramp and, knowing him from Vaugh n his days on the force,(142) engaged him in conversation.(743) Follow Daniels continued to watch the proceedings from a spot right ing this, ramp, on the side furthest from the Western Union off the office. stated that when Lieutenant Pierce’s car came up the ramp,(744) He man Vaughn stepped away from his post, but no one slipped Patrol- down the ramp. (745) by to go (535) Daniels stated several times that he acted as a lookout ime to insure that nobody entered the ramp, because at this Vaughn was occupied with stopping the traffic.(746) Patrolman ‘nterviews, however, Daniels said that an individual In three 1963 went down the ‘amp several minutes after Lieutenant Pierce’s car had she shooting.(747) In a 1978 Committee deposition, left and before he again averred what an individual went down the ramp after the car had In his 1964 Warren Commission testimony, Daniels at firstexited. (148) hat an individual walked down the ramp before the had stated 149) but he changed this statement to after the car came car came up, hown his previous statements. (150) Regardless of when up, when it Janiels said that this person went right by Patrolman Vaughaoccurred, vithout Vaughn trying to stop him. (152) n, (151 ) 536) In his 1978 committee deposition, Daniels was questi erning the identity of the individual going down the ramp: oned con- Q. Did this individual resemble anybody in particular? A. Well, there again, I didn’t see his face that good. I saw the back of him and kind of the side, you know, I didn’t nize him, But I thought maybe he was some guy who hadrecog- down there before and was coming back, you know, to—the been was newsmen all over the place down there. re Q. Based on what did you see of this individual, did he resemble Jack Ruby ? A. I didn’t know Jack Ruby. 136 Ruby in Q. After that time did you see pictures of Jack | the newspapers and magazines? the guy Id A. Mm-hm. Yes, I did. And he did resem ble seen go down in there.( 153) earlier state- (587) This dialogue must be contrasted with Daniels’ not think the ments. He had told the Warre n Commi ssion that he did Police De- individual was Jack Ruby,(154) and prior to his Dallas it was not partment polyg raph test he stated that he was sure Ruby. (155) defer (538) The Warren Commission believed that Daniels’ story “merits sten- little credence.”(156) Its reasons may have included the inconsi the cies in Daniels’ numero us stateme nts and the proble m posed by time sequences, since it has been determined that only 55 seconds elapsed between the time Lieutenant Pierce’s car cleared the crowd at the bottom of the ramp and the fatal bullet. (757) (539) Another civilian witness whose testimony was examined be- cause the Warren Commission believed that it partially corroborated Ruby’s narration(148) was James Turner, a WBAP-TV (Dallas) director. Turner told the Warren Commission that he saw Lieutenant Pierce’s car going up the Main Street ramp and that about the same time he glanced toward the ramp and saw Ruby coming down it. (159) Turner did not know Ruby,(160) but he was certain that the indi- vidual he saw was the same man that shot Oswald.(161) He said that what distinguished Ruby from other men was his hat, which Turner described as felt, round on top, and with a wide (not a snap) brim. (762) (540) Sylvia Meagher commented on this description in her book “Accessories After the Fact” : Turner’s description of the hat is completely inconsistent with the hat Ruby was wearing when he shot Oswald * * * That hat has a narow brim, not a “pretty large one,” and an ordinary top, not a “round” one.(163)_- (541) More importantly, the point where Turner stated he saw Ruby is approximately two-thirds of the way down the ramp. War- ren Commission counsel Leon D. Hubert, Jr. directed a number of questions during Turner’s deposition toward the possibility that Ruby may not have come all the way down the ramp, but may have come from the garage area, crossed the railing dividing the parking area and the ramp at some point, and then continued down the ram incline.(164) Turner admitted that he did not see Ruby prior to his being at that point well down the ramp and that because of the degree of the incline and a column which partially blocked his view, he could not see all the way to the top of the ramp.(i65) This exchange was not mentioned in the Warren Commission report and casts serious doubt on the Commission’s conclusion that Turner’s testimony cor- roborates the ramp theory. (542) Dallas Police Department reservist. W. J. Newman, said that he saw an individual coming down the Main Street ramp (and blend- ing into the media crowd) about 1 minute before the sheoting, just after a shout of “here he comes.” (166) Newman could not identify the individual, other than to say that he was a white male. In 1978, he 137 underscored his inability to identify him by declaring only sure that it wasn’t Santa Claus. (767) Newman that he was also the man had come down the ramp on the far (jail office) stated that side,(168) a description that does not coincide with the Warren Commission’s, which placed Ruby on the near side of the ramp. (69) (543) Newman had been stationed on the Commerce the basement, guarding a door opening into the subbas Street side of ement chinery area.*(770) As a result, his vision was somewhat obscu ma- the pillars in the basement parking lot,(171) as well as red :by people in the area. by the many (544) Newman’s story should not have been used as corroboration of the Warren Commission conclusion, as was attempted. (172) In fact, Commission Counsel Burt Griffin explicitly did not believe sestimony.(173) It lacked specificity and, like Turner Newman’s ’s testimony, igain failed to show that the person entered at the top of the ranip, rather than from within the basement area. (545) The evidence is thus inconclusive, even dismissing ‘ale, as did the Warren Commission. (174) Eight witnes Daniels’ 10 one (much less Ruby) came down the ramp when ses stated that Pierce’s car left, while one witness (Ruby) stated that Lieut enant he ramp. The declarations of Newman and Turner he did go down can be variously nterpreted. 546) Given these contradictions, which have not ylained, the investigative focus should have been yet been fully: ex- ‘ocus some did have, notably Burt Griffin) and on Ruby’s story (a vle, as well as whether the other witnesses were wheth er he was credi- credible. 547) Following the shooting, Ruby was pushed med and taken away. Set. Patrick T. Dean, who to the ground, dis- een the man in charge of basement security,(17 was believed to have 5) was one of Ruby’s ubduers, having leapt over a car to do so. (176) 948) Difficulties have arisen with Tespect to who | i nd where and what he told them. A fter a brief was with Ruby ent jail office, Ruby was escorted to the interlude in the base- jail {th floor by a number of policemen, includingelevator and up to the archer Barnard S. Clardy, Thomas D. MeMillon,Detectives Don Ray apt. Glenn King.(177) Detective Harrison and Harrison and arted almost immediately. (7 78) The rest were and Captain King de- els of the Secret Service and Sergeant Dean, joined by Forrest Sor- tom the third floor on orders from Chief who had brought Sorrels 1e semiformal questioning of Ruby, who Curry.(179) At this time, an. Sorrels stayed only 5 to 7 minutes(78had been stripped, (780) be- /) and then left. C. Ray 549) Sergeant Dean and Detectives Arch {cMillon (786) said they heard Ruby say,er, (184) Clardy (185 ) and >quence, that he had entered the base at some point during this ment when Lieutenant Pierce’s 4r exited. Sorrels never heard that stat fter, Ruby refused to tell Hall and then ement. (787) Shortly there- Captain Fritz the details of *See figure 1, par. 601. met05 0 - 79 - 10 138 questions about his also refused to answer how he got in.(188) Hethe FBI interviewed him November 25 (189) means of access when him on Decem- Jack Revill snterviewed on December 21, and then when DPD It. I interv During an FB iew ber 1 and 3, 1963.(190) the Warren Com- to the theory accepted by n taken after his 3, how eve r, he ret urn ed tio 196 case in a Sworn deposi mission,(191) as was the trial. (192) ion and required a mind have aroused suspic (550) These changes of s of Detectives Archer, Clardy and McMil- closer look at the statement Sergeant Dean had told the Warren Com- lon and of Sergeant Dean. lowing the shooting, he trailed the group mission in 1964 that, foll office and then returned to the basement taking Ruby into the jai iewed by several television reporters. (193) area where he was interv ished his ques- ediately after Sorrels fin (551) Dean stated that imm y how he got in, as Sorrels had failed to tioning, he (Dean) asked RubRuby replied he had come down the Main make this inquiry, and that Sorrels did Pierce's car drove out. (194) told Griffin | Str eet ram p whe n Lie ute nan t ng of this nature(195) and not remember hearing anythigeant Dean how he got in the basement, | Ser that Ruby may have told er hearing it nor does 1t show up in his — but Sorrels did not rememb | (19 6) was stil l notes. concerning whether Sorrels 552) There is another disputnte Dean made his inquiry. Sorrels told on the fifth floor when Sergeahe had left after questioning Ruby (197) the Warren Commission that n.(798) Further, Dean’s statem ents and that he left alone, without InDea1964, he said that he could not recall have been inconsistent.(199) anation by saying that Ruby mus he did not hearby Ruby’s access expl have spoken after Sorrels had left. (203)he heard Ruby recite the ram (553) Detective Archer stated that ) Detective McMillon said tha theory in answer to Dean’s inquiry.(204 the committee that he di Dean).(206) On the other hand, Clardy told only heard Ruby’s general r not ask Ruby any questions. Rather, he he entered.” (208) how he got into the basement or at what time time,(209) a eee two of the detectives were still prese had this nt at heard from Ru they did not speak up to relate what they Fay (210) all failed to re (554) Detectives Archer, Clardy and McMillon n to their DPD s immediately Ruby’s Main Street ramp explanatio 139 periors(2/7) despite its obvious importance. Detective McMill original report of November 27, 1963, to Chief Curry did not on’s mention Ruby’s statement (2/2), although his December 4, 1963, FBI intervi did.(273) When asked by the Warren Commission why this informaew tion was not included in his original report, McMillon said, “Well, - couldn't possibly have mentioned everything that I knew about I deal here. I just didn’t mention it, I didn’t think anything the being important at all at the time.”(2/4) Detective Clardy about it did not report Ruby’s statements until November 30, 1963 ;(275) no explana- tion has come forward for his belated action. Detective Archer mentioned Ruby’s statements on December 1, 1963. (276) first (555) Sergeant Dean told the Warren Commission that he Lieutenant Pierce of what Ruby had told him sometime Sundaynotified noon,(2/7) and that Pierce informed Capt. Cecil Talbert.(278) after- also stated that he did not talk with Patrolman Vaughn the Dean day,(219) but moments later, when asked the same questio rest of the that he did speak to Patrolman Vaughn on the second n, he stated floor of head- quarters, with Lieutenant Pierce present and possibly Captain Tal- bert. (220) 556) Although these factual inconsistencies may be sriffin, among others,(22/) was greatly disturbed by theinsignificant, ation involving Ruby’s story—when he told it and to whom— entire situ- us feelings be known, particularly when questioning Dean. and let (557) In 1977, Dean described the issue with Griffin nvestigators. He remarked that at one point while Griffin to committee ‘oning him, they went off the record, and Griffin told Dean was ques- ‘eports he had submittedto the DPD were not true that two (222) and that Ruby had not told him that he had come in via the amp. (223) Dean had expressed shock to Griffin and said Main Street mswer any more questions. He also stated that when he he would not ngton, D.C., Chief Justice Warren personally apologizedwent to Wash- onduct and vindicated Dean. (224) for Griffin’s 558) It is clear that Dean is a key figure. He seems very time something important was taking place. In to have appeared additio n charge of basement security, he was at Parkland Memori n to bein m Friday (Ruby was reportedly there) and on the fifth al Hospita floor uarters during Ruby’s initial interrogation. A Texas appella of head- uled that his testimony should not have been admitted te court in Ruby’s trial nd resulte d in his conviction being overturned. (225) His confron ‘on with Griffin created serious problems within the Warren ta- ‘on and was partially responsible for the curtailment and Commis- {the Ruby part of the investigation. (226) restriction 999) On May 28, 1964, Dean sent a letter to Chief aat he be allowed to take a polygraph examination Curry requesting and Uuestions. (227) Sometimes later, Dean was administered suggesting 16 »st by Officer P. L. Bentley. Dean admitted in 1978 that a polygraph 4© examination.(228) This information had never he had failed been 9 the Warren Commission. Nor was the committee able transmitted { the actual questions and results or a copy of the to find a copy 2g for 1964. (229). DPD polygraph 60) The committee was unable to arrange a conve sing Dean, and he refused to respond to written nient date for de- ‘min the form of a sworn affidavit. (230). interrogatories sent 140 ed to emanate from two inquir- (561) Some of Griffin’s concerns seem ain his access and then subsequent- ies: 1) Why did Ruby initially expl of Ruby’s story have originated ly refuse to do so? 2) Could aspects ) hed 4 with things said to him by others ?(237 fifth floor afte r his initial (562) Ruby may have become silent the on the in pres ence of stra nger s, part ic- statements because he was suddenly appr ehen ded in the base - ularly Hall of the FBI.(232 ) When he wasially questioned on the fifth ment, transported via the elevator and init las police officers,” and there floor, he was among his best friends, “Dal just occurred. Tom How- had would be no reason not to explain what Ruby, said that his hesitancy ard, the first of many atto rney s to coun sel as police officer and friend was the result of his not wanting to get a Dall ion to Lieutenant Revill on in trouble. Ruby himself gave this expl anat d that Ruby did not wish to December 1, 1963.(233) Griffin suggeste finger anybody on the force out of fear of possible revenge. (234) At some point, Rub y may have also been advi sed by Jegal counsel not to discuss how he entered the basement, a reas on which he also mentioned to Lieutenant Revill. (235 ) indicated a know!]- (563) Clearly, Ruby’s story contained details that morni ng. He knew that edge of activity on Main Street lands cape that he recognized the a patrolman was guarding the ramp entrance, (236) he stated that the driver of the police car as Lieutenant Pierce , and facts were un- patrolman had to guide this car into the tratfic. ‘I’heseeven if the con- disputed, and Ruby was aware of them. There fore, it appears that clusion of the Warren Commission is not believed, less than a Ruby was either near the Main Street ramp entra nce ing or he was appri sed of these details by minute before the shoot someone else. y after (564) Both of these possibilities are supportable. Shortl close enough leaving the Wester n Union office, Ruby would have been of the Main Street ramp (237) and then to see the activities at the top enough r route to the baseme nt. He would have been close take anothe ramp if he were within the basement, positioned on or just off the ly, when Lieute nant Pierce’ s car drove up, to see, even if only partial ramp. Furthe r, amid the the events taking place at the top of the incredible confus ion follow ing the shooti ng, bits and pieces of names on. (i.e., Lieutenant Pierce) and events may have come to his attenti (565) One possibi lity, sugges ted by Griffin ,(238) is that Dean told Ruby what to say in order to protect his reputation and esteem, since he was one of the men in charge of security in the basement and Ruby’s entrance might have been blamed on him. Dean stated that as Ruby was being subdued he (Dean) first said, “Jack, god- dam.” Ruby then said, “Dean, I’m sorry, I’m sorry.” Dean’s re- joinder was, “Man you got me in one hell of a shape,” (239) inferring that Dean was immediately aware of his personal predicament. (566) It is possible that Dean went to the third floor (where he met Chief Curry and Sorrels) to find Ruby, as Griffin has sug- gested.(240) Dean explained that he went there because he wished to speak to a superior officer about the extent of the information concerning Ruby’s identity which would be proper to disclose to the media.(24/) Subsequently, he found Ruby on the fifth floor and had 141 an opportunity to talk to him. According to Griffi cultivator of police favor and not being desiro n, “Ruby, being a wrath of the police department, might well have us of incurring the Dean.” (242) At least one person on the fifth floor taken the hint from Ruby-Dean conversation could have taken place indicated that a (567) Other theories of how Ruby could have privately. (243) gotten into the base- ment have been voiced. Of these, four can be suppo rted (568) The first is the obvious possibility that some to some extent. in the basement, as had been done normally at other officer let, Ruby end(244) and over the years. (245) Jack Ruby’s relatitimes that week- DPD would have distinguished him from most onship with the other citizens, and until Oswald was shot, his presence would have been could have been ignored. Theodore Fleming, a DPD innocuous and (he left in March 1963), told the FBI that there officer for 8 years was a “good likeli- hood” that any officer acquainted with Ruby would in the building if Ruby had requested permission to have allowed him was, however, no evidence to support this theory altho do so.(246) There tee reasoned that no one would be likely to admit ugh the commit- letting Ruby in if he had done so. (569) A second theory involves a press pass—Ruby might ten through a security checkpoint by flashing media have got- identification. (247) This theory has been fueled by Eva Grant’s comme had some sort of press card,(248) by Ruby’s own comme nt that Ruby the weekend (particularly on Friday night when he was nts during uarters with a note pad and pen) (249) that he was seen at head- covering the assas- sination for the Jewish press,(250) and by the testi ‘Teservist Harold B. Holly, Jr. mony of DPD (570) Holly was assigned to Parkland Hospital follow | ing to assist with the handling of traffic there. He stateding the shoot- met another reservist there, identity unknown, and that he had that they had en- gaged in conversation. The unknown reservist said that let Ruby in the basement or had seen someone else either he had do was wearing press identification on his jacket. (257) it, and that Ruby (571) Holly’s story contained a number of inconsistenc cember 1, 1963, interview with Lieutenant Revill, Holly ies. In a De- the unknown reservist let Ruby in and did not mention declared that ist had also said he might have seen Ruby being that the reserv- let in by someone else.(252) Then, in a December 7, 1963, FBI interv third possibility :that the reservist merely said thatiew, Holly added a he had seen Ruby in the basement. (253) (572) During his December 1, 1963, DPD interv shown photographs of several reserve officers. The iew, Holly was report on this in- terview stated that he was not able to identify the unknown reservist. (254) Yet Holly told the FBI that he had picked out one graphs as possibly being a good likeness.(255) The of the photo- pect for the unknown reservist was W. J. Newma most likely pros- n, because he had recalled the man coming down the Main Street tion, he was at Parkland Hospital on Sunday aftern ramp.(256) In addi- have been there at the same time as Holly. In fact, oon and might mon, who displayed the photographs to Holly, Capt. J. M. Solo- Picture was chosen by Holly. Yet Captain Solom stated that Newman’s on told the Warren 142 tements were ] is confused * * * his sta Commission that “he [Holly ure, and when I showed him the pictures so general, such a general nat ntify them.” (257) he was unable to positively idehe did not tell anyone at the hospital of 573) Newman stated that it to be insignificant. (258) To addto the what he saw, since he believed picture, said that Holly did choose onefishing on confusion, Lieutenant Revill when int erv iew ed, was out but that the reservist he chose, pital. (259) Sunday and not at Par kla nd Hos blem credibility, (260) the basic pro (574) Besides Holly’s lack of y did not have any press passts on with the press theory is that Rub ) and he told the FBI he did not his person when apprehended, (261r identification on the outside of his have any sort of press card or othe cation to gain entry to the base- coat, nor did he show any identifi ges were found within the base- ment.(262) No discarded press badknew Ruby, the ruse of a reporter ment,(263) and since many officers would not have worked with them. television camera—states that (575) The third theory—that of the ision technician or helper and Ruby assumed the disguise of a telev a camera into place. Two DPD entered the basement by helping to push and Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw, members, Detectives Roy Lee Lowery have mentioned this possibility. oximately 3 to 5 minutes | (576) Detective Lowery stated that appr before or after Lieutenant — was before the shooting, he was not sure if it ctive Harrison recalled Pierce’s car went up the ramp, although DetePierce’s departure, (264) hearing Lowery say that it was just prior to ng through the double he saw three men, with their heads down, comi camera on @ tripod and | doors in front of the jail office with a television a was never actually ete (it was from WPAB, Dallas). The camer only two men were used, and after the shooting Lowery noticed thatendently noticed the | moving it away. Detective Cutchshaw had indep n members of the | same thing. Both detectives talked to the two know two men pushing television crew, who said that there had only been third. Low- the camera originally and that they knew nothing about a been the third ery and Cutchshaw therefore inferred that Ruby had man. (265) Philadelphia (577) Joseph Goulden, a reporter, wrote an article in a hable” law mewspaper stating that he was told by an ‘“yni mpeac assistance enforcement source that Ruby got in the basement with the ment of a local television cameraman, while carrying television equip When inter viewe d by the FBI, Gould en said into the basement. (266) a- that his source got the story from Ruby himself and that the camer man in question was Jack Renfro, also of WBAP-TV. (267) for the (578) Both cases seemed to be implausible. The explanation trio seen by Lowery and Cutchshaw is that the two men who were orig- Sar qoring the camera (identified as Dave Timmons and John ankersley) were having difficulty balancing the equipment. Another WPAB employee, the aforementioned James Turner, who was sta- tioned with a second WPAB camera already in place in the basement came over to help.(268) Further, Detectives H. L. McGee and D. G Brgniley were with this camera coming down in the elevator to th gc te eer said that Ruby was not present, that only Tanke ns were moving the camera. It is also unlikely tha 143 Ruby would have used this route because the camera was moved ap- proximately 4 minutes before the shooting, which would corres with the time at which Ruby was leaving Western Union.(269) pond nally, and most important, Renfro, the cameraman, stated Fi- that Goul- den was at Parkland Hospital at the time of the Oswald shooting. (270) (579) Last is the alley theory. The alley in question is situate tween the Western Union office and the DPD headquarters d be- from Main Street to Commerce Street. , runnin g (580) In the middle of the alley is a door leading to the of the municipal building.(277) (The municipal building first floor both the city hall and the police building. At the street level, contains the build- ing is divided, although on all other floors it is solid.) Once inside door off the alley and in the first floor corridor of the munici the ing, a person pal build- would normally be able to reach the DPD basement park- ing lot by either elevator or a fire escape stairway. The stairw doors at the first floor and the basement. I Ruby had left ay has Western Union and started to walk down Main Street toward Patrol Vaughn’s position, he would have passed the alley and had accessman the building. to (581) Although Commission counsels Hubert and Griffin indicated an awareness of the alley in questioning the witnesses, (272) the ren Commission Report does not mention this possible War- route. Further, the special DPD investigative unit did not conside (272) r it at all. (274) (582) The possibility that Ruby entered via the alley, went down the stairs,(275) and through the basement door is logistically attrac- tive. Through his knowledge of Dallas police headquarters, may have been aware of the alley, the stairs and the door, andRuby this mode of entry would have been much less conspicuous than the others. It would have enabled Ruby to get in position without having to pass very many persons, since the route went through a fairly empty park- ing lot in the basement.(276) Further, most, if not all, people were probably focusing on the area nearest to the jail office and awaiting Oswald’s appearance. This path would also have taken ramps, Ruby across the garage area and through a railing at a point near the bottom of the Main Street ramp.(277) With respect to timing, Ruby could have entered the basement via this route in the 4 minutes that elapsed between his visit to Western Union and the shooting . (278) On June 26, 1964, an FBI agent walked through the route (including going through the railing near the bottom of the ramp) in respons to a request from the Warren Commission ;he found that it e required 189 steps and 2 minutes and 25 seconds. (279) (583) Although there were at least three doors along this route, was possible that they were not or could not be secured. The Warrenit Commission noted that there were doubts about whether the door the bottom of the fire escape was secured.(280) John O. Servanc at the e, head porter for these buildings in 1963, said that even when the door at the bottom of the fire escape is locked in such a way as to prevent egress from the basement, a person could still open it from within the stairwell.(28/) This was corroborated by two other main- *nance employees, Edward Pierce and Louis McKinzie. (282) 144 (283) Then he said he be- the inside, Dean at first had no response. asked a maintenance man Putn am had lieved that he and Sergeant and this individual locked it (identity unknown) about this door, dless of which side it was to | so that a key would be neces sary regar testimonies of McKinzie and — be opened from, (284) contradicting the Servance. ission testimony indicated — (585) Capt. Cecil Talbert’s Warren Comm he was checking other doors In — that he did not check this door while to have this door locked at — the area, since the usual procedure was , and he assumed this was ends all times after 6 p.m. and always on week the case. (285) ding maintenance employee, (586) Edward KE. Pierce, also a buil into the first floor was con- stated that the door leading from the alley be locked from the outside structed in such a manner that it had to in this fashion. Otherwise every time an individual left the buil ding ay morning the door ;t would remain open. Pierce said that on Sund prior to the shooting was probably opened and closed sever al times get into the alley. (286) because the porters were working and needed to special investigative Capt. William Westbrook, a member of the DPD that the alley door was not checked that unit, indicated in 1978 emen t was not clear). morning (287) (although his basis for this stat the mech anic s of the alley door to the (587) Servance reiterated at issu e—the one issi on and adde d that the third door Warren Comm escap e stai rwel l—was leading from the first floor corri dor to the fire also unlocked all the time. (288) possibility that (588) At the very least, this information raisesy, theand that if Ruby the alley door was left open, albei t inad vert entl able to continue had gone through this door, he would then have been ally, security at to the basement with out locke d barri cades . Addi tion the relevant point in the basement was notairtight. Patrfrom olman Alvin gned to watc h the door lead ing the fire R. Brock had been assi ed by Ser- escap e and the near by eleva tor doors , but he was reas sign med that geants Putnam and Dean at 10:45 a.m. (289) Brock had assu h these ‘a reservist locat ed in the imme diat e vicin ity woul d watc spots. (290) (589) Brock’s reassignment was not unique; other basement per- sonnel,as well as previously unassigned officers and reservists, (291) were given new traffic duties around this time. For instance, Reserve Patrolman G. E. Worley, Jr., was originally assigned to the garage area and was supposed to keep cars from parking in the first two places on the north side of the parking area. He was reassigned between 10:45 and 11 a.m.,(292) which took yet another man out of the area.* (590) The reassignments were the result of a change in the trans- red car via E fer plans. The idea of transporting Oswald in an armo Street was dismissed in favor of a route along Main Street, with Os wald in a regular police car. Traffic reassignments became nec sary,(293) and Sergeant Dean was so notified by Capt. Talbert. (294 *See fig. 2, par. 602. 145 The men originally assigned along several other policemen, such as Elm Street were reassigned, and Officers Brock and Worley, were moved out of the basement, even thou gh nobody knew when Oswald tee did not know who this individu (592) Reservist Newman told al was. mediately prior to the shooting the Warren Commission that im- the garage area: himself, loca , there were only two security men in ted on the far side of the rail to Chief Curry’s parking area, ing aid station in the basement, and a regular officer nearby the next (296) Patrolman Brock stated first he left the basement at 10 ‘45 that whe n mentioned previously and anota.m., he noticed the reservist that he had the bottom of the ramps. (297 her rese rvis t in the garage area nearby ) (593) Although Ruby denied the use of the alley when giv en a poly- ‘ehind the railings on the dey had moved forward infar side of the ramps (from the jail office) ; farance was imminent, Thi a “general surge” (306) when Oswald's ap- s situation might have aid ed Ruby’s entry '€ vision of some Dallas ie lights needed by the Police Department personnel, (308) as did 're,(309) lights described television cameras to insure a clear pic- eclfically remarked that as “blinding.” (370) Detective Harrison an aye down the it would have been diff Main Street ramp due icult to recognize a $ x SS to the glare in you r 146 not come The evi den ce ava ila ble indicates that Jack Ruby didexited. The 7 (597) p when Lieutenant Pierce ’s car down the Main Street ram dence belies this route, and the testimony — weight of the eyewitness evi ported this route was often inconsistent — of various witnesses who supthe fact that 55 seconds had elapsed be- — and inconclusive. Further, tom of the cleared the crowd at the bot n Street twe en the tim e the pol ice car Mai shooting militates against the ramp and the moment of the ld had to have included driving the car ramp route. This interval wou g out into ramp entrance before pullin entarily up the ramp, hesitation at the n the ramp(312) and his mom the street, Ruby’s walk dow ective Harrison’s shoulder before dart- positioning himself behind Det the video ement which is evident from ing out to shoot Oswald (a mov incident).(323) While this amount of tapes and photographs of the area lack of security in the garage factors of time and distance, thethe testimony concerning the security and along the entire route, andThis possibility was not considered or at the doors along the route. Dallas Police Department and was vir- investigated by the FBI or the Commission. tually ignored by the Warren the basement, there was no conc m a rete (599) However Ruby got into any assi stan ce in doi ng so fro evidence to show that he received (314) or anyone else. Ruby himself Poli ce Dep art men t mem ber Dallas ) The coincidence of the timing of denied receiving any assistance. (315 ne to have known when Oswald that there was no possible way forf anyo y himself.(317) These factors was to be moved, including Chie Curr obable. . made warnings or signals highly imprso perfect that it made it difficult (600) Nevertheless, the timing was is unlikely that Ruby entered the to accept mere coincidence, and it ce. This might have been in the basement without some sort of assistan sfer plans, direct hel in enter- form of knowledge of the Oswald tran both entering nk ‘no the basement, or direct help in Oswald.(318) 147 (601) Fieure 1 BASEMENT DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT, DALLAS, TEXAS DAI SY. fae ‘ one ON aeaac s eeeeeeeatasdindl... } oes = 8=* ° ‘ NT ee ? feat ve| 4 148 (602) Ficure 2 _— BASEMENT DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT, DALLAS, TEXAS ‘ —— OER AD . ome ey) «1! is CLL PED Fe a op rer - 8 Ss. B ms! = rag “ m * Me <4 - + j : ane ___| SES }- jae es ; a : - Comrssros Exezart No. 2179 (marked) at 10:45 a.m, he places A. When Brock leaves his position shown. a Reservist: 1 and Reservist 2 in the areas ed) shortly thereafter,- he B. When Worley leaves his position (mark 3 (who would have to be Newman) - places McCoy (marked) and Reservist to the shoot ing Newma n says there are two men in the C. Just prior er (marked Off). |. (marked) and regular Offic garage area: himself then these three 1, and McCoy are one and the same, If Off, Res (and indicate a searcity of accounts are reconscilable problem is that McCoy places security men in the garage area): The ing (marked) just prior to it. himself close to the site of the shoot 149. B. Oreanizep Crime’s Move to Dautas, 1947* (603) It has been alleged that in 1946 Jack Ruby was involved in an attempt to bribe Dallas Sheriff-elect Steve attempt did in fact occur and involved several] Guthrie. This bribery figures, but Ruby’s involvement has never Chicago organized crime been established. The com- mittee believed it important to reexamine the relating to this event to determine if Ruby had documents and files he was associated with the participants. been involved and if THE BRIBERY ATTEMPT (604) In June 1946, Steve Guthrie won the tion for Sheriff of Dallas County and was Democ ratic primary elec- to take office in J anuary 1947.(319) The District Attorney also was retiri candidate, Will Wilson, was taking office. (320) ng, and a “reform” Roland Jones, (327) prior to this time illegal According to Paul ried on with the consent of Sheriff Smoot Schmidopera tions had been car- of the Dallas Police Department. (322) Jones stated and various members impossible to operate illegal operations under that it would be 30 he made plans to discontinue his activities.the new administration, (323) Prior to this he had, however, made an effort to arrange the conti activities under the new administration. nuation of his illegal (605) On October 29 or 31, 1946, Jones called Dalla george Butler and asked him to arrange a meeting s Police Detective Steve Guthrie. (324) Subsequently Butler asked with Sheriff-elect assist the police department with its investigat Guthr ie if he would ion of Jones’ activi- les.(325) Guthrie agreed, on the condition that us conversations with J ones. (326) Butler agreerecordings be made of d, vere made with the Texas Rangers to have the and arrangements (hereafter, Guthrie and Butler met. with J ones onmeetings recorded. dome of Jones’ associates also were present at severa several occasions. 606) The committee obtained the l of the meetings. ags. It also acquired partial transcriptions of the 3utler’s detailed notes. (607) The following seque recordings and nce of events has 608) Jones and Guthrie met for the first time 946.(327) During their conversation, Jones menti on November 1, oned ‘tom Chicago who had moved to Dallas—Marcus Lipsky, some people erg, Paul Labriola, Julian Breakstone, Lou Schnei James Wein- der, and J immy »arcella. Jones also discussed the opening of a club vated : in Dallas and | Here is my proposition to you. You pick a man, a local we will put him in business. We will rent him a buildi man, we will finance it. We will put in some juke boxes, someng but ble tables, some sort of slot machines. We will get mar- Mechanic and a pickup truck. We will start hustling him a getting “Prepared by Donald A. Purdy, Jr., senior staff counsel , and Leslie H. Wizel- An, staff researcher. **Jones and Butler had several meetin gs during this period which offere thing pertinent to the resolution of this d issue, and they, therefore, are not ussed. 150 no muscles attached. Some- him some locations, legitimately, him, I trust him. We will body that. you trust. 1f you trust , marble tables, punch- furnish him all the slot machinesand there will be only one boards, et cetera. We will operate ) gambling house in the county. (328 — g in only one man from Chicago, Jones also stated they would brin y.” (329 ). Jone s desc ribe d the “who is capable of stopping the mone being neither a “dago” nor 4 man ag look ing like a prea cher and local people, naming as examples Jew.(330) The other people would berman Little. (337) Bob Fletcher, Tom Cooley, and She called Butler from Chicago and (609) On November 3, 1946, Jones syndicate and two others from told him that two headmen from the Dallas on November 5, 1946. Las Vegas, Nev., would be arriving in Jack Knapp registered at the (332) on November 5, 1946, Jones ands introduced Butler to Knapp Adolphus Hotel in Dallas. (333) Jone including “their big lawyer and informed Butler that his other men, next day.(334) According to from Chicago,” would be in Dall as the Butler’s notes: Bar at Fort Jones talked about buying the Chicken $185,000. The Indus trial Boul evar d for Worth cutoff and to be converted money to come from his people and the place other locations into a gambling club and night spot. He said ion. (335) were discussed but this was the perfect locat Jones also stated that: take off and After things were going smoothly he wouldly experienced leave the operation in the hands of an equal y Hornstein J. 1588Be has been here for some time [Harr (610) On November 6, 1946, Jones and Knapp met Guthrie and recorded. (337) That Butler at Guthrie’s home; this meeting was also er meeting was ar- evening, Pat Mann ing arriv ed in Dallas , and anoth , Manning, Guthrie, ranged for November 7, 1946.(338) Jones, Knapp ng. Manning identi- and Butler were prese nt at the Novem ber 7 meeti in Chicago. (339) fied himself as being involved in the policy business go FBI office, ad- A teletype, dated Novem ber 8, 1946, from the Chica , “who is in actuality vised that Manning was believed to be Pat Manno cate and close frien d of Joe Batters,” a member of the Chicago syndi go syndi also known as Anthony Accardo, a leader in the Chica : cate. (340) ed dis (611) According to Butler, the November 7 meeting includ cussions of: | ' various problems in connections with fixing the various peo- ple involved. . . . It was indicated that already in the bag were: Al Templeton, Gonzales, Will Wilson and that the city would be an easy changeover, come the April election. (342) (612) The subject of the “local man” who would serve as a fron1 man came up again during the conversation. Manning asked Jones the man had been chosen. Knapp responded, “Well, we’ve got a lot oo prospects. We have got a half dozen.”(342) Later in the discussi Manning said they were not going to bring any people from Chicag 151 into this arrangement, relying instead entir Specific names of the local participants ely on “local fellows,” (343) was also some discussion of undesirable were not mentioned. There characters in Dallas, including Lois Green, Johnnie Grissaffi, Junior Thomas, Mac Barnes, Monk Wright, Bennie Binion, and Al Meadows. (344 (613) Jones and Knapp left Dallas ) 1946.(345) On November 14, 1946. Jones for Chicago on November 8, calle N.Y., and advised he was going to New York d Butler from Syracuse, City and then to Chicago, aad since ret York for Chicago and would be in Dallas (614) On November 23, 1946, Jones in 1 or 2 days. (350) and as.(351) Butler met them at the Adolphus Knapp arrived in Dal- net with Jones on November 25, 1946 Hotel. (352) Butler again .(353) Jones informed Butler hat the man with him at the Adolphus Cent vas Bob Fletcher and that “Bob was ury Room on November 23 read indrews, Chilton, Day, and Little.” (364) y to go. So were Johnny nm November 26, 1946. (355) Jones returned to Chicago 615) On December 2, 1946, Jones poke with Butler. (356) He told Butler returned to Dallas and again he next day. (357 ) He also said that that Knapp would be in Dallas Pete Strance and Bill Bundy, ocal Dallas characters, had recently been iddie Vogel, stating that they had “put in Chicago and contacted or Governor and Guthrie for Sheriff and up $168,000 to elect Jester ounty.” (358) They offered Vogel part they had been given Dallas nance them and return their $168,000 of the “take” if he would . (359) According to Butler: This declaration by these men was time Paul Jones made his. Paul was made at about the same with Vogel and Manning at the time he last called Butler from this other proposition, coming from Chicago. As a result of a Paul says his people are a little cold andfairly reliable source, Steve gets set before they start moving. willing to wait until (360) 16) On December 4, 1946, Butler told Jones to keep away from allas until after “the round up of the tt Jones decided not to leave Dallas.( outside racketeers in Dallas,” utler visited Jones and was introduc 367) On December 12, 1946, urray Humphreys and Jake Guzik, ed to two men identified as Chicago syndicate leaders. (362) andwritten notes next to Butler’s note Is were not actually Humphreys s stated that these two individ- itler said that Dominic J oseph Blas and Guzik. Later in his notes, mas Murray Humphreys. (363) i was the man introduced to 64) Jones said Pat Manning’s real name was Pat Manno, Jack Ople would be in Dallas next week eting.” (366) and there would be “one last 152 sed Butler contacted Jones who advi (618) On December 18, 1946, from Chicago” were in Dallas.(367) ‘ that Knapp and “another man bring his local representatives, Jesse — Jones also stated he was going to e in the afternoon. (368) Chilton, to the meeting with Guthri er 18, Jones was arrested along \ 619) During the evening of Decemb ph Blasi, and Knapp, alias Romeo with Don Blaski, alias Dominic Jose also arrested. (370) According to— Jack Nitti.(369) Jesse Chilton waseveryone but Blasi. (377) They were — Butler, charges were filed against elected officials and held without charged with attempted bribery of icted of attempted bribery and bond. (372) In 1947, Jones was conv released on appeal bond. (373) RUBY’S ALLEGED INVOLVEMENT ef i Treatment by the Warren Commission of the — of the recordings (620) The FBI reviewed the transcripts It was noted in the FBI meetings, but not the actual recordings.(374) inaudible and a detailed report that some of the recordings had make. been had been impossible to (375) Consequently, the transcription but merely summarized. recordings had not been fully transcribed, its review of these transcriptions, the FBI concluded | (376) Following Jack Ruby.(377) 5 that they failed to disclose any mention of who stated, accord- (621) The FBI also interviewed George Butler, ing to the FBI report of the interview : In fact he Ruby was not involved in the bribery attempt.tigation and had never heard of Ruby until after the inves the way Ruby trial had been completed. He [Butler] stated s who were came into the picture was a number of indiv idual ry attem pt and in parti cular Paul Roland involved in the bribe the sente nce. ‘ $78)began “hanging” out at Ruby’ s club after Dallas during 1946, (622) Carl F. Hansson, who was chief of police in Jones investigation | was also interviewed. He stated that durin g the he had “on several occasions” read the transcripts of the recordings| iews, and he did not recall the name Ruby taken of the various interv does not think that ever being mentioned. He stated that “he positi vely ever came up in the recor ded interviews of) the name of Jack Ruby | Jones by Guthrie and Butler.” (379) provides the (623) The FBI report of Steve Guthrie’s interview following version of Ruby’s involvement: with Jack Ruby at that time was a “small time peanut” name this group who were going to bribe Guthri e. Ruby’s came up on numerous occasions, according to Guthrie, as being the person who would take over a very fabulous restau- floor rant at Industrial and Commerce Streets in Dallas. The of that building was to be a regular restaurant and the upper floor would be used for gambling, Ruby was to run this club. Jack Ruby never in person talked with Guthrie about this matter. and, in fact, Guthrie and Ruby had no conver- sation during this investigation. However, according to- 153 Guthrie, Ruby’s name constantly came up as being the per- son who would run the restaurant and Guthrie said if the records can still be heard, Ruby’s name will be heard on numerous occasions. (380) (624) ‘Two Chicago reporters also indicated they had information that Ruby was involved in the bribery case. Frank Kiernan, special assistant to the U.S. attorney in Chicago, received the information from Jack Wilner, a crime reporter for the Chicago Daily News. (381) Wilner had stated that Ruby was reportedly involved in 1947 with Nick de John, Paul Labriola, Marcus Lipsky, and Jones in an efiort to take over gambling in the Texas area. (382) Morton Wil- liam Newman, also a reporter from the Chicago Daily News, stated ‘he had heard from George Butler that Ruby was involved in an attempt to bribe Guthrie. (383) He was also advised that Ruby was a particularly close friend of Jones. (384) eae When interviewed by the FBI, Jones stated, according to the interview report: j * * * He had never mentioned the name of Jack Ruby, and that he could be sure of this, because he had never heard of Jack Ruby at this time. He said that he is sure that neither Manno nor Nappi had mentioned Ruby during the conversations and negotiations with Butler and Guthrie, as Jones was present at all of them. He stated in addition the conversations had not had to do with exactly who would be operating in the Dallas area, and thus there would have been no occasion for discussion of Ruby or anyone else as the person who was to operate a restaurant at Industrial and Commerce Streets. (385) (626) Jack Ruby did, in fact, know Jones. The Warren Commis- ‘sion states that Ruby was friendly with “numerous underworld figures” and included Jones among them. (386) It appears, how- ever, that Ruby did not meet Jones until after Jones was arrested for the bribery attempt and released on appeal bond. (627) When Jack Ruby was interviewed by Federal narcotics Agents in October 1947, he stated he had known Jones for the past 4 or 5 months. (387) He had been introduced to him by his sister, Eva Grant, but had never spoken to him in Chicago. (288) In a 1963 interview, Ruby stated he met Paul Jones in 1947 “at the Sil- ver Spur, it was the Singapore Club first, on Ervay Street here in Dallas,” (389) (628) Eva Grant stated in her testimony before the Warren Com- Mission that she was introduced to Jones by Dr. Weldon Duncan. (390) When asked by the Warren Commission if Jones knew Ruby, she Tesponded, “If he did—no; I doubt if he ever even heard of him * * *” and “T don’t think he has ever seen him—well, wait a minute, he may ve seen the man or heard about him.”(391) Grant was then asked if Ruby knew Jones at the time of Jones’ narcotics case (fall of 1947). he responded: I don’t think he ever saw him as far as I know, but I want to tell you that Paul Roland Jones went to Chicago during 44-105 0 - 79 - 11 154 meet my brother the period of those 6 months and he did my brother had— Hyman. I don’t know what conve rsati on didn’t know any- my brother thought he was a nice guy—we thing about his backgrou nd. (392) Jack Ruby knew Jones, (629) When Hyman Rubenstein was asked if through Lva.” (393) he replied, “He never met Jones. I met Jones introduction to (630) Jones provided yet a different version of his he was released ction in 1947, Ruby. He stated that following his convi in Dallas. (394) Grant on appeal bond and met Dr. Duncan and Eva in the company of ‘A short time later, he went to Chica go and was urg, and possi bly Dann y Lardino. (395) Paul Labriola, James Weinb ins the following: The FBI report on the interview with Jones conta there and They had been in the Congress Hotel to see a man coming met Ruby, whom Jones did not at that time know, with Jones had addres sed. across the lobby of the hotel. Those Ruby by name and intro duced him to Jones. (396) the doctor with (631) According to Jones, Ruby asked him about “The others accom- whom Eva was associating. (397) ‘The report states, Jones there- panying Jones had told him that Ruby was ‘OK.’ ”(398) bad reputa tion, and Ruby said he fore told Ruby the doctor had a out and asked if planned on going to Dallas to straig hten his sister notes that, “One of those accom- Jones would help him. The FBI report right and urged panying Jones had again replied that Ruby was all days later” Jones to help which Jones had agreed to do.” (399) A “few and about the same time Ruby also appeared Jones returned to Dallas, . Ruby contac ted Jones and asked him for assist ance in locat- in Dallas ing an apartment. (400) first meet- (632) Jones related substantially the same version of his er 17, 1963.(4 01) He added, ing with Ruby in an interview on Decemb Jones, however, that Eva Grant had arrang ed the meetin g betwee n Labriola, and Weinberg. (402) (633) In interviews after the assassination, Ruby stated he had moved to Dallas in June 1947 and opened a nightclub with his sister. but (403) Late in 1947, he had returned to Chicago for a few weeks, his sister asked him to come back to help her with the club. (404) ndizing (634) Ruby was having some difficulty in various “mercha deals” in Chicago,* so he agreed to return. (405 (635) The Warren Commission concluded on the basis of the above investigation that Jack Ruby was not involved in the 1946 bribe case.(408) The report states that “the Commission finds it difficult to accept” the report by Steve Guthrie that during the bribery meet- ings the “criminals frequently mentioned that Ruby would operate a ‘fabulous’ restaurant as a front for gambling activities.” (409) was probably referring to the disputes he was having with his *Ruby brothers about the operation of Earl Products. (406) The Warren report states and that he that Jack Ruby “stayed with the company through most of 1947” the products “had many disputes with his brothers because he insisted on selling of other companies, such as costume jewelry, and he did not like traveling outside of the Chicago area.” (407) 155 Treatment by the Committee (636) The committee obtained the original recordings of the vari- ous meetings between Jones, Butler, and Guthrie. These were sent to Bolt Beranek and Newman, Inc. to be recorded onto cassette tapes which were then reviewed. The original recordings were of such poor quality, however, that it was impossible to determine on the cassettes if Ruby’s name ever came up during the conversations. It also ap- peared that two recordings were missing. An FBI report from Ruby’s FBI file refers to 22 phonograph records;(4/0) the committee only acquired 20. They were in the possession of George Butler. (637) The committee reviewed the partial transcriptions of the re- sordings that had been reviewed by the FBI. It looked for any refer- ance to or mention of Ruby. The review failed to reveal any references 0 Ruby or Rubenstein, Hyman Rubenstein, Eva Grant, Earl Ruby, ‘he Silver Spur or the Singapore Club. (638) The Chicago Crime Commission provided the committee with ‘wo memoranda concerning organized crime in Dallas. One, dated ‘about 1946,” contained background information about “Chicago hood- ‘ums who have been operating in the Dallas area for the past several nonths.” (411) They were James Weinberg, Paul Ross, Paul Labriola, Martin Ochs, Julian R. Breakstone, Charles R. Coy, Nick de John, Jake Guzik, Harry Hornstein, Paul Mann, Louis Snyder, Jake Keller, Marcus Lipsky, Sam Yaras, and Paul Jones.(4/2) Attached to this nemorandum was a list of names not of record in the Dallas Police Jepartment.(4/3) Neither the memorandum nor the list made any reference to or mention of Jack Ruby or Rubenstein, Eva Grant, the Silver Spur or the Singapore Club. (639) ‘The other memorandum is a general background report of ‘rackets in Dallas.”(4/4) It discusses generally the background of organized criminal activity in Dallas and the Jones bribery case. Again, there was no reference to or mention of Jack Ruby, his rela- ives or business interests. (4/6) (640) ‘l’he committee also obtained some of Butler’s original notes. they contained no reference to Jack Ruby during the relevant time »eriod of the fall of 1946. Butler’s notes, dated October 21, 1947, did, i1owever, mention Jack Ruby and Eva Grant.(416) On this date, Sutler had interviewed Homer Raymond Padgett, who told him: * * * he had worked as manager of the Singapore Club for several months, Padgett stated he became very curious about the people and characters who hang around the place and about 3 months ago, when he tried to overhear what some of the bunch were talking about, one jumped up and started beating him with a blackjack. Sitting at the table that night were Paul Jones, Abe Schepps, Jack Ruby, and two more characters known to him as Tony and David. They accused him more or less as a stool pigeon, one grabbed him arms behind his back and Jack Rose [sic] started on him with a sap. Padgett said that the Chicago bunch is gradually mov- ing in, a few at a time. Two men have been placed in the shoe department at Neiman Marcus Co. ‘They were placed there 156 who operates the Earl under orders by a man named Max, Products, Co. in Chicago. Max seem s to be the big man who is the front for the gives the orders * * * Mrs. Eva Grant [Eva’s husband], Singapore Club * * * Whe n Gran t died rite about $100,000 d apparently of natural causes, she inhe sn cash. Her brother Jack Ruby [who se real name is Ruben- other s “bea t” Mrs. Gran t for nearly all her - stein] and two money. (417) , (641) When Eva Gran t was aske d about this allegation, she con- ,” was a floorman and firmed that Padgett, known to her as “Patsaid that Jack Ruby beat bouncer for the Singapor e Club .(41 8) She ) Grant also knew Abe Padgett because Padgett had cursed Ruby. (419 the name of Tony or Schepps but could not reme mber anyo ne by work most of the David.(420) She stated that her husband did not t did not recall any- time and did not leave her any mone y.(4 27) Gran name of Max who was asso ciat ed with Earl Prod ucts. (422) one by the ed rega rding their (642) Both Grant and Sam Ruby were ques tion or assoc iatio n with the indi vidu als invo lved in the brib- knowledge of just prior to ery attempt. Grant stated in one inte rvie w that in 1947, Sing apor e Club , she was visit ed by Capt ain Reeves the opening of the Poli ce De- from the Dall as and an officer named Swanson or Hansson ‘Cap one d her ques tion s abou t know ing Al partment. They had aske time, and gangsters from Chicago who were visiting her club. At that in- she stated, she had been keep ing comp any with Dr. Dunc an, who trod uced her to Jone s who subs eque ntly offer ed to buy her club, but without success. Jones, however, did use the phone in the club on sev- eral occasions. (423) (643) In a subsequent interview, Grant said it was possible she first met Jones in the fall of 1946.(424) Grant was not sure whether she had introduced her brother, Jack Ruby, to Jones. She noted that it} was shortly after her arrival from the west coast that she first met} Captain Reeves and Chief Hansson. (425) She stated that subsequent to her meeting with Hansson in 1947, he asked her for and was given| two cases of beer. (426) She said the last two times she saw Jones were} just after he got out of jail in the late 1940’s and in 1960, when he} visited the Vegas Club.(427) Grant said that Nick de John was al friend of Jones and Dr. Duncan, and she implied she knew de John through them. (428) (644) Neither Grant nor Sam Ruby had any personal knowledge of Benny Binion, James Weinberg, Martin Ochs, Jake Guzik, Marcu Lipsky, Tony Accardo, Pete Strance, Bill Bundy, Eddie Vogel, Gu Alex, Lou Schneider, Paul Ross, Charles Coy or Julian Break stone.(429) Grant, however, did recall that Sam Yaras ran a slot machine business in Dallas and also did a lot of business with Jones 1 connection with juke boxes.(430) She indicated that she had juk boxes in the club from 1945 to 1948. (437) (645) The committee interviewed and deposed George Butler regard ing Ruby’s involvement in the bribery case and relations with Chic gangsters who were in Dallas. Butler stated that: In 1947-48 some members of the Capone organization were trying to move gambling into Dallas and he along with Sheriff 157 Steve Guthrie, Chief of Police Carl Hansson, Ranger W. E. (Dub) Naylor, and Col. Homer Garrison set them up where they either went to jail or left town (432) (646) Butler said he had a “snitch” in the Capone outfit who told him Ruby had been considered too emotional and erratic and that the syndicate had no use for him and did not want anything to do with him. (433) Butler’s informant was later identified as Jones. (43.4) (647) When asked if Ruby’s or Grant’s name ever came up in his con- versations with Jones, Butler responded: Yeah, when—when Paul Jones—you know, we were in the midst of all this session that was going on. He would tell me about all the bigwheels in the syndicate, and he said there was a guy coming in here that—from Chicago, but he’s not part of us. He’s too emotional. He’s too—— He doesn’t have the sta- bility that they like in their gangster connections, and he did mention that they had opened a place, I think, called the Silver Spur or the Silver Slipper. (435) (648) When asked for details regarding the Chicago criminals in Dallas, Butler identified Nick de John, Paul Labriola, Martin Ochs, James Barcella, Danny Lardino, Sam Yaras, Lou Schneider, Jake Guzik, Julian Breakstone, Paul Ross, Charles Coy, and Dave Yaras as being part of the “Chicago group.” (436) (649) Butler stated he used to talk to Jones “every time he’d see him on the street.”(437) Jones became Butler’s informant shortly after the election in 1946 and at one point told Butler that “Ruby didn’t amount to anything, but he was trying to get in with them.” (438) According to Butler, Jones’ explanation for Ruby’s move to Dallas was that Ruby had been run out of San Francisco.(439) Jones told Butler, “He’s not part of us. He wants to be, but he’s no part of us.” (440) (650) When asked about Steve Guthrie’s statement that Ruby was part of the Chicago group, Butler stated he did not “buy it” because: I was closer to them than anybody. I’d go into their houses and listen to all that stuff, and they’d bring characters in here like Manno from Chicago and some of those other top hoodlums, and Ruby never was around * * * I think Steve had the impression that they were going to use Ruby to run that Venus cafe, a gambling joint, after they opened up, but in these tapes they definitely say they’re going to use local people and not going to use any Jews, and I don’t know why the Jewish angle came up in this thing. (4/7) (651) When Butler was asked if Ruby was part of the Chicago or- ganized crime group that moved to Dallas, Butler replied, “I’d say that positively in my opinion he wasn’t.”(442) Butler stated that the Chicago group did not trust Ruby “or have confidence in his stability.” (443) (652) The committee reviewed Jones’ FBI file. This file contained information about the bribery attempt but made no reference to Jack uby being involved in the incident. (653) On the basis of the above investigation and research, it would Seem that there is no substantial evidence linking Ruby to the at- 7 158 did know Jones and may tempted bribery of Steve Guthrie. Ruby were involved in the incident have known other individuals who had moved to Dallas. Ruby or who were Chicago gangsters who bribery attempt or be part may also have desired to participate in the is no significant evidence of the Chicago group generally, but there no evidence that Ruby that he did in fact participate. There is also gambling esiablishment, was to be involved in the final setup of the that Ruby came to Dallas had the bribery attempt been successful, or for that purpose. Jones did state he woul d bring one man from the ngem ent and that the rema inder of the partici- outside into the arra that Jones had Ruby pants would be local people. (444) It is doub tful the “outs ide repre senta tive,’ since Jones in mind at that time as Ruby did not meet had not yet met Ruby. (The evidence indicates d.) Jones mentioned Jones until after the bribery atte mpt had faile the operation of the several people who might have been involved in mention Jack Ruby. gambling club,(445) but apparent ly he did not it difficult, if no (654) ‘That this incident occurred in 1946 made icipants are dead impossible, to resolve definitely. The prim ary part , and Manno. (446) including Jones, Labriola, Weinberg, de John, Nitti no reason for peo- Memories have faded, and there would have been at that time. It is ple to attach any significance to Jack Ruby’s name mber, in detail therefore, unreasonable to expect witnesses to remee was unable t Jack Ruby in the 1940’s. In addition, the committe interview Steve Guthrie. witne sses (655) Despite problems with obtaining statements from led and com the documentary evidence regarding this incident is detai transcript prehensive. George Butler’s notes and the FBI repor ts and in of the recordings provided a surprisingly clear picture sof the mectcover that occu rred in 1946. Beca use of the comp rehe nsiv enes of this age, it is logical to assume that had Ruby been involved in any sign cant way, his name would have appeared some place among thes the r documents. On the basis of a review of these documents and cordings, 1t woul d seem that Ruby knew Jones , but there was no sl nificant evidence of his participation in the the bribery attempt. C. Rusy’s Activites Invorvine Cusa* TRIPS TO CUBA (656) The Warren Commission Report makes reference to a tri Jack Ruby made to Cuba: In September 1959, Ruby traveled to Havana as a guest of a close friend and known gambler, Lewis J. McWillie. Both Ruby and McWillie state the trip was purely social. (447) The report explicitly states that there “is no reliable evidence th Ruby went to Havana subsequent to September 1959.” (448) Inte estingly, it contains no such statement about prior trips, nor ev mentions that possibility. (657) Although admitting some “uncertainty” about Ruby’s trip Cuba, the report strongly implies the trip was purely for vacation. concludes that there was “no substantiation * Pe for rumors linki *Prepared by Donald A. Purdy, Jr., , seni or staff counsel, and Leslie Wizelman, staff researcher. 159 Ruby with pro- or anti-Castro Cuban activities.”(449) It does, how- ever, State that Ruby might have been involved as a middleman in a jeep sale to Cuba.(450) Despite this, the possibility that Ruby’s trip might have been connected to organized crime interests was not discussed. (658) There was evidence that two Warren Commission staff attor- neys, Leon D. Hubert and Burt W. Griffin, who were assigned to investigate the Ruby area, had doubts about the report’s conclusions. In a memorandum to the Commission, dated March 19, 1964, they discussed Ruby’s activities with regard to Cuba, specifically stating: _ The number and length of Ruby’s stays to Cuba are not entirely clear. Ruby admits to having been in Cuba only once: in 1959 for about 10 days. However, records of the Immigra- tion and Naturalization Service show that Ruby flew to Havana from Miami on the night of September 12, 1959, and returned to New Orleans on September 13, 1959. Ruby has _— not explained this trip, unless it is the trip to which Ruby ad- mits. (451) | (659) The memorandum also stated that Ruby claimed his trip to Cuba was to discuss with McWillie “gambling opportunities in Cuba.” (452) (660) Griffin and Hubert further discussed various rumors which they characterized as “possible links among Ruby, Oswald, and vari- ous Cuba groups.”(453) These included the possibility that Ruby might have been involved in illegal activities in Cuba.(454) The two men stated that the rumors had not been “sufficiently investigated or substantiated.” (455) (661) In his testimony before the committee, Griffin stated that the ‘Warren Commission’s investigation did not adequately focus on the possibility that Ruby was involved in illegal activities with Cuban elements who might have had contact with Oswald. (456) (662) In a letter dated April 3, 1964, the Warren Commission requested the FBI to conduct further investigation so as “to clarify the number of trips which Ruby made to Cuba in 1959 and succeed- ing years.” (457) This letter also requested that the FBI investigate further several of the allegations raised in Hubert’s and Griffin’s Memorandum. The FBI did reinterview several of the individuals they had previously interviewed.(458) Nevertheless, a review of Jack Ruby’s FBI file and Warren Commission documents failed to Teveal any resolution of these issues. (663) In ks of its conclusions, the Commission either did not fully ‘investigate t e allegations and rumors raised by Hubert and Griffin or, if it did investigate, concluded that these issues did not warrant in- clusion in the report. This omission has raised serious questions among critics of the Warren Commission. Allegations have been made re- garding both the number of Ruby’s trips and the activities he pursued on them. One critic claimed Ruby “may have traveled to Havana six or more times,”(459) another that Ruby “developed a business inter- est in Cuba.”(460) It has also been suggested that Ruby was serving’ 160 as a courier for organized crime figures.(467) In addition, allega- tions have arisen regarding possible associations between Rubv and organized crime members who were involved in the CIA-Mafia plots” to assassinate Fidel Castro.(462) One of the most serious is that Ruby assisted in obtaining the release of Santos Trafficante, Jr., a leading organized crime member, from a Cuban prison.(463) The evidence would seem to indicate that the Warren Commission’s inadequate in- vestigation of Ruby’s trips was a major reason for the resulting speculation and that the issue warranted further investigation. (664) While the committee acquired additional information regard- ing some of these activities, the evidence was not sufficient to resolve all the allegations. Statements by Ruby (665) FBI and Secret Service interviews.—On December 2, 1963, Ruby was interviewed by Secret Service Agent Moore. The report of this interview states : Ruby admitted to Agent Moore that he did make a trip to Cuba, which was supposed to last for 10 days, on an invi- tation from Louis MeWillie, described by Agent Moore as a gambler who is well known in Fort Worth and Dallas, Tex. MeWillie was known to run gambling games in Dallas prior to 1959, according to Moore * * *. McWillie, according to Ruby, wrote Ruby or sent word to Ruby in Dallas that he, McWillie, would like for Ruby to visit him in Havana. MeWillie reportedly sent Ruby plane tickets to Havana and Ruby went down as a guest. Ruby told Agent Moore although he was supposed to spend 10 days in Cuba, following his arrival, he found he did not have a good time as he expected, he was not a gambler, and after several days in Havana with nothing to do, he was glad to return to Dallas. (464) (666) On December 21, 1963, Ruby was interviewed by FBI Special Agent C. Ray Hall.(465) Ruby stated he had visited MeWillie in Havana, Cuba, during August 1959.(466) He lived at the Fosca Apartments with McWillie for 8 to 10 days.(467) Ruby claimed he spent all his time in Havana “except to go to a small area on one occasion with one of the Fox brothers who owned the Tropt- eana.(468)” Ruby also told Hall he had never been in Cuba “since or before.” (469) (667) Warren Commission Testimony.—During Ruby’s testimon before the Warren Commission, he repeatedly stated he had been 1 Cuba only once(470) and that this trip was in August 1959.(477) The visit was made at the invitation of McWillie, who sent him hi airplane ticket.(472) When asked about his travel route to and fro Cuba, Ruby appeared confused. He stated: I think I told Mr. Moore I stopped in New Orleans. Some- time I stopped in New Orleans, and I don’t. remember if I stopped in Florida or New Orleans, but I know I did stop in New Orleans, because I bought some Carioca rum coming back. I know I was to Miami on a stopover. It could have been on the way back. (473) 161 Continuing, Ruby conjectured: * * * here is what could have happened. I could have made— a double stop from Havana on the way back in taking in Miami, and then taking another plane to New Orleans, I am. not certain. But I only made one trip to Havana. Yet I know I was in Miami, Fla., and I was in New Orleans. (474) (668) According to Ruby, when he arrived in Havana, the Cuban customs agents delayed him “for hours” while searching his lug- gage.(475) Ruby claimed the reason for this delay was the discovery in his luggage of a photograph of one of the Fox brothers. Rub stated McWillie met him at the airport (476) and that he stayed with MecWillie at Volk’s Apartments in Havana for approximately 8 days.(477) Ruby again stated he was bored in Cuba.(478) The only activities Ruby discussed were going to the club every evening with McWillie and swimming at the Capri and Nacional once or twice.(479) He stated he was with McWillie “constantly.” (480) (669) During Ruby’s polygraph examination, he again spoke of his trip to Cuba: . When people ask me—they say, “Jack, you went to Havana, Cuba” and I say, “I went there for a vacation.” They say, “How long did you stay?” When I say, “8 days” you some- how have got to answer specifically that it was a vacation, because a person can be very evasive and say he went for a vacation but yet had other dealings there. (487) (670) Following this statement, Assistant District Attorney Wil- liam Alexander asked Ruby if his trip to Cuba was purely for vaca- tion and pleasure; Ruby replied, “That’s right.”(482) During the actual examination, Special Agent Herndon asked Ruby if he did business with Castro and Cuba; Ruby replied, “No.”(483) Herndon also asked if Ruby’s trip to Cuba was solely for pleasure, to which Ruby replied “Yes.”(484) Unfortunately, the conditions under which the polygraph examination was conducted were such that the test has to be considered invalid, and therefore the results cannot be inter- preted. (485) 671) Other Statements.—Ruby made several statements to other in- dividuals regarding his trip and activities in Cuba. An FBI interview report on Clarence Rector states: He [Rector] went to Cuba for 2 days in late 1959 and in early 1960 he was back in Dallas and went 'to the Vegas Club and saw Ruby. He mentioned he had been to Cuba and Ruby stated he had recently been to Cuba himself, as he and some associates were trying to get some gambling concessions at a casino there but it did not work out. (486) (672) The FBI also interviewed Tony Otillar, a ticket agent for Delta Airlines in New Orleans. (487) According to the FBI report of this interview: * * * approximately 7 years ago Jack Ruby flew from New Orleans to Havana, Cuba. At that time Ruby was at the New Orleans Airport to catch this flight. Otillar striick up a con- 162 him. He versation with him and then became acquainted with Ruby made a long advised that prior to leaving on the flight, , Tex., and taiked with someon e who distance call to Dallas emplo yed at his nightc lub. He told whoev er he was talk- was ing to that he was going to Havana and that the entire trip was being paid for by someone else and was not costing him anything. He advised the person he was speaking to on the. telephone not to disclose his whereabouts unless it was to the police or some other official agency. (488) d (673) Alice Nichols, who dated Ruby during the 1950’s, informehe the committee that in September 1959 Ruby called her and told her away was going to Cuba on vacation. (489) Nichols believed Ruby was for 1 or 2 weeks. She provide d the committ ee with a postcar d of the l that she had received from Fosca Building as seen from the Naciona Ruby.(490) Dated September 8, 1959, it states: Dear Alice, the Tropicana is beautiful and do wish you were here. These people are the most carefree [ve ever seen. They party in the street all nite. This is the building we are staying in. Mac says hello.—Love, Jack. (491) (674) The committee interviewed Samuel Ruby, Jack’s brother, on — December 27, 1977.(492) He stated that some time in 1960 J ack Ruby | had told him that McWillie had sent him a ticket to visit him in Cuba and that while there he had met George Raft.(493) Jack Ruby also told his brother that he had only spent a weekend in Cuba.(494) (675) Wally Weston, a comedian and emcee who worked for Ruby, informed the committee that while visiting Ruby in jail some time after Ruby was convicted, Ruby mentioned Cuba: When I went to see him [Jack Ruby] that one time he was shook he said gez, Wally, now they’re going to find out about Cuba, they’re going to find out about the guns, find out about New Orleans, find out about everything. (495) (676) Robert Ray McKeown told the committee that Ruby had vis- ited him in 1959 to discuss selling equipment (i.e., jeeps) to Castro. (496) McKeown claimed Ruby told him he knew some members of the rect in Cuba and had visited the country once while on vacation. Statements by Lewis J. MceWullee (677) FBI and Warren Commission investigation.—MeWillie was first asked about his relationship with Jack Ruby on November 29, 1963, when he was interviewed by the FBI.(498) According to the report of this interview, McWillie said that “some time in 1959, Ruby had been in Cuba for about a 1-week vacation and he had seen Ruby there at that time.”(499) McWillie disclosed no additional informa- tion about Ruby’s trip. (678) During this initial interview, the FBI also asked McWillie about a statement made by Elaine Mynier, a mutual friend of Jack Ruby and McWillie.(500) Mynier had advised the FBI that shortly after Castro took over, she took a vacation to Cuba. Ruby had given her a “short-written message in code consisting of letters and numbers 163 and including the word ‘arriving’ ” and asked her to convey this mes- sage to McWillie.(07) In a later FBI interview, Mynier said Ruby gave the message to her in Dallas and told her to “tell McWillie that Sparky from Chicago is coming.” (502) She delivered the message that aid McWillie made some comment about Ruby to the effect that “he is nuts.” (603) (679) When asked about Elaine Mynier, McWillie advised that she was a resident of Dallas who worked for the Avis rental agency at the Dallas airport, and that she ‘was acquainted with Ruby.(404) Mc- Willie remembered that she had visited Havana and stayed for ap- proximately 2 weeks. He denied that he had used her as a courier 9. ween Ruby and himself. (605) ( 80) The FBI reinterviewed McWillie on June 8, 1964. McWillie - ipplied additional details about Ruby’s trip.(506) The report of this overview states: In 1959, date unrecalled, he wrote to Ruby and asked him if he would like to come to Havana for a week. He stated there was no ulterior motive and that he had been a close friend of Ruby’s and extended this invitation as one would to a brother. He realized Ruby was working hard with his Dallas night- club and felt that Ruby needed a rest. Because the cost of plane tickets in Havana could be paid for by pesos for ap- proximately one-fifth of a cost of a ticket in the United States, he purchased a round trip ticket for Ruby at his own expense and mailed it to Ruby in Dallas, after which Ruby boarded a plane and flew to Havana for a visit. (507) eWillie believed that Ruby did some sightseeing while in Cuba and visited the Tropicana. (508) (681) The FBI also interviewed Meyer R. Panitz,(509) a Miami resi- lent and friend of McWillie’s and Ruby’s.(510) McWillie had stated shat Panitz was a bookmaker active in the gambling trade. Panitz ad- vised that in the summer of 1959, he was working at’ the Booker 1. Lounge in Miami Beach, Fla. During this time, he received a phone cail ‘rom MecWillie who was in Cuba.(51/) According to Panitz, McWillie told him that Ruby had visited him in Cuba and was then in Miami 3each. Panitz subsequently contacted Ruby at Wolfie’s Restaurant, 21st Street and Collins, in Miami Beach. (512) Panitz stated he visited Ruby n two occasions over a couple of days.(673) He could not recall the onth of these visits but was somewhat certain it was in the summer of 959.(514) There is no evidence that the FBI questioned McWillie bout the phone call to Panitz. (682) Another FBI report, dated March 26, 1964, provides additional formation about Mc Willie’s associates. (516 ) As of May, 1960, McWillie was pitboss at the Riviera Casino, Havana, Cuba. Report reflects that it would appear McWillie solidified his syndicate connections through his asso- clation in Havana, Cuba, with Santos Trafficante, well-known syndicate member, Tampa, Fla.; Meyer and Jake Lanski; Dino Cellini and others who were members of or associates of “the syndicate.” (516) 164 n | (683) McWillie was not interviewed by members of the Warre . | Commission staff, and he did not testify before the Commission iewed (684) Statements to the committee.— Lhe committee first interv stated McWillie on May 21, 1977.(517) In this interview, MeWillie his was in Cuba only one time as “that to his knowledge Ruby had never guest.” (518) He gave an explan ation for Ruby’s visit that he a Dal- mentioned previously—he wanted Ruby to contact Tony Zoppi, write a las column ist, in the hope that Zoppi would come to Cuba and (686) The “Santos” referred to by Hudson was probably Santo Trafticante, Jr., a powerful organized crime member detained in Cub during the summer of 1959. (687) When asked about Trafficante in his first committee interview McWillie stated Ruby did not know Trafficante. (526) McWillie adde that he also did not know Trafficante, acting as if he did not eve recognize the name. (527) (688) The committee deposed McWillie on April 4, 1978.(528) A that time, McWillie reiterated his new explanation for Ruby’s tri stating: When I was in the Tropicana, they [the Fox brothers, owners of the Tropicana] were hunting for business, trying to get business, and I suggested.that I call Jack Ruby and have him get a hold of Tony Zoppi. Tony Zoppi 1s a well known columnist like Bishop, Earl Wilson, people like that. That’s the kind of a man he was in Dallas and all society people read his column. He wrote me back that they’d come over on a certain date. So I sent him two tickets, which the place paid for. Then I explained to him we would pay for their room. We figured he would get a lot of publicity from it and people from Dallas would come to Cuba. Later on, if I remember right, Jack came and said that, what’s his name, Tony couldn’t make it. That’s the cause of all my prob- lems. (529) (689) McWillie also stated he asked Ruby to get in touch with Zop because he did not know Zoppi too well and Ruby did. (539) Zoppi w: an entertainment columnist for the Dallas Morning News whom Ru visited frequently to obtain publicity for the acts at his club. (637) 165 (620) In an effort to substantiate this version of events, McWillie supplied the committee with a letter, postmarked August 18, 1976, written by Zoppi to Matty Brescia, who had given it to McWillie’s brother. When McWillie first received this letter, it refreshed his memory regarding Zoppi. This letter states: Give my regard to McWillie next time you are in touch. Jack Ruby and I were supposed to visit him in Havana but I got sidetracked. Jack went on ahead and it caused Mack a lot of trouble over the years. The quick buck artists are saying Jack went down there to plan the assassination. He couldn’t have planned a gas station holdup in those days. All of a sudden he’s a CIA agent, a Mafia don, etcetera, etcetera, sickening. (532) (691) When McWillie was asked why he did not tell the FBI about Zoppi, he replied: I had just forgot about it, to tell you the truth. I was all ~ shook up about the darn thing happening and it just slipped my mind. (533) , (692) McWillie said Ruby visited Cuba sometime in 1959, perhaps in August. (534) When McWillie was informed that an article by Zoppi stated that the proposed trip was in December 1958, McWillie stated: Maybe I did call him before 1959. But I did call him in 1959 again. If I did make a call in 1958, then I did make a call in 1959. (635) (693) Regarding Ruby’s stay in Cuba, McWillie stated Ruby stayed at a “little hotel” which he could see from his apartment window in the “Foxa” building.(636) When asked about Ruby’s activities in Cuba, McWillie stated: He was right out there where I worked. Every morning when I got up he was there. When I left the place, he went with me to eat and went to bed. (537) McWillie also indicated Ruby might have gone to a show at the Capri Once or twice, but added, “I don’t remember a darn thing he did but bug me all week.” (538) (694) During his deposition, McWillie was again asked about Santos Trafticante. This time McWillie stated: * * * he knew who I was and he shook hands with me when he saw me, but that was it. I’ve been asked that a lot of times, too. But I didn’t know Mr. Trafficante intimately, no. (539) (695) McWillie could not recall if he had ever met Trafficante in the United States.(540) When asked if he visited Trafficante in a Cuban prison, Trescornia, McWillie said: I didn’t visit him. I went out there once or twice to visit a fellow, he was a dealer. He had a young son and a wife and he _ gambled all his money away. At times we would take up a col- _ lection amongst dealers and give him money. I went out there once or twice to see him. (547) 166 Continuing later: I saw everybody out there. Trafficante, I think he was in there * * * Lsaw him but I didn’t talk to him * * * I don’t know him that intimately.(542) — (696) McWillie stated that he did not believe Ruby was visiting him at the time of his prison visits, but indicated he could have been. (543) When asked if Ruby visited the prison with him, MceWillie stated: I really don’t know. It’s possible he could have but I don’t ; think, if he did, he went with me and I don’t recall it but he | could have. I don’t know for sure * * *.(544) | (697) In his deposition, McWillie was also questioned about both Meyer Panitz and Elaine Mynier.(545) McWillie believed Panitz was in Cuba when Ruby was there and could not recall telephoning Panitz in Miami to tell him Ruby was also in Miami.(546) McWillhie stated he had dated Mynier but denied receiving a message from her that Ruby had sent from Dallas. (447) . (698) McWillie also stated in his deposition that he had traveled to Miami on many occasions to deposit money in a Miami bank for the Fox brothers, the owners of the Tropicana. (548) (699) On August 16, 1978, McWillie was contacted by the committee. He repeated his statement that Ruby’s 1959 trip was to involve Zoppi.(549) (700) MeWillie was next subpenaed to appear before an open sessiorx of the committee. He testified on September 27, 1978, at which time he repeated the Zoppi explanation for Ruby’s trip to Cuba.(550) On this occasion, MeWillie stated he called Ruby in 1958 and asked him to get Zoppi to come to Cuba, but Ruby “couldn’t bring him or some: thing.” (551) He then called Ruby again in 1959 and repeated his request.(552) He sent Ruby two tickets, but only Ruby made the trip.(653) Again, McWillie stated Ruby was there a week or 6 days.(554) When asked if Ruby might have stayed longer, McWilhe stated, “no, I think I took him to the airport.”(555) McWillie alse denied that Ruby left Cuba during his visit, returning later : (556) If he [Ruby] did make a trip I would not know it, sir, and I would think I would know it, and I didn’t see Jack Ruby after he left that one time. (557) (701) When asked about Panitz, McWillie at first denied calling him, (458) but when confronted with Panitz’s FBI interview, stated he could not “recall” telephoning Panitz. (559) (702) McWillie’s testimony regarding Ruby’s activities while 1 Cuba was substantially the same as his prior statements. (660) (703) When asked again about his visits to the prison, Trescornia, which Trafficante was detained, McWillie stated he had visited therg twice to visit Guiseppe de George (a dealer friend). (667) He may have also visited Dino Cellini, who was detained there.(662) Hq also recalled that Jake Lansky and Trafficante were at Trescorniaf (563) McWillie recalled seeing Celline, de George, Trafficante and Lansky (564) on his first visit to the camp. In fact, he spoke with Celf lini, de George and Lansky.(565) McWillie stated, however, “I didn 167 talk to Trafficante because I didn’t know him that well to speak to him.” (566) (704) MeWillie indicated the same people were at Trescornia on his second visit.(567) With regard to Trafficante, McWillie stated, “I probably said hello to him the second time I was there.” (568) When asked if Ruby could have accompanied him to Trescornia, McWillie stated: Jack Ruby could have been out there one time with me. I don’t think he was. I went out there, I think, by myself * * * I don’t know if he was there at that time or not. If he was, T could have taken him out there with me, yes. I’m not positive about it. (569) Statements by Tony Zoppi (705) With respect to McWillie’s explanation of Ruby’s trip to Cuba, the committee interviewed Tony Zoppi on several occasions. The report of the first interview on March 13, 1978, including the following: * * * one day in December Jack Ruby called me and asked me how I would like to go to Cuba and write about the clubs there. When I agreed that it would suit me fine, Ruby said he had a friend, Lewis McWillie, who managed the Casino in the Tropicana, and he would arrange for Mc Willie to send us two tickets. About a week later Ruby called Zoppi to inform him that he had received the plane tickets from McWillie and that they would leave in several weeks. Zoppi stated that he never made that trip because 1 week prior to leaving he had received a call from the Sands Hotel informing him that Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Jr., Joey Bishop, Dean Martin, and Peter Lawford were to appear there in what was bally- hooed to be one of the greatest acts in show business. It was to be called the summit meeting. Of course, Zoppi had to accept. this invitation and informed Ruby that he was unable to accompany him to Cuba but perhaps would join him at a later date after he had completed his assignment at the Sands Hotel. Ruby did proceed with his plans and went to Cuba and he was to join him after the holidays. Needless to say, Zoppi remarked that he never did join him because on December 31st, Fidel Castro’s revolution was a success and he came into power. (570) (706) Zoppi was reinterviewed on March 31, 1978, and on April 5, 1978.(571) The report of the March 381 interview states: His best. recollection was that durin September or October of 1958 Ruby offered to write McWillie at the Tropicana to get them airplane tickets so Zoppi could review the acts at the Tropicana to help MecWillie’s business. The OK for the trip was received approximately December 8 or 9 (or 10-12) and the trip was to last 4-5 days. Zoppi wanted to be back for the holidays. They would pay their own way down and be reimbursed: this was the common practice for journalists reviewing acts. In late November, Jack Entratter and Al 168 Freeman called inviting Zoppi to review a big he anniversary Las Vegas . Zoppi said (as had writ- chow at the Sands in his articl e) the show was a “summ it meeti ng” show fea- ten in turing Frank Sinatra, Dean Marti n, Samm y Davis Jr., Joey Peter Lawfo rd. Zoppi figure d there woudn ’t be Bishop, and trip anything “like this” in Cuba so he decid ed to postp one the he would meet him down there after the new and told Ruby year on approximately January 4. Ruby told Zoppi he would go down, stay down there and meet Zoppi in Cuba. Zoppi then states he never went down due to Castro’s takeover in Janu- ary. He vaguely remembers Ruby told him he had a good time in Cuba. He doesn’t know if Ruby had been there before or not. (572) (707) On April 5, 1978, Zoppi was questioned further about the dates of the proposed trip to Cuba. He was also shown the letter which McWillie had given the committee, which had reminded McWillie on of Zoppi’s role in Ruby’s Cuba trip. Zoppi authenticated his signature this letter.(573) It was pointed out to Zoppi that Castro’s takeover did not immediately prevent travel to Cuba.(674) Zoppi then called the Sands Hotel to obtain information about the big shows during the 1958-61 period in order to determine which show he had reviewed. (675) He stated it could have been the December 1958 show with Rowan and Martin, the December 1960 show with Marty Allen and Steve Rossi, or the December 1959 show with Dean Martin. (576) He thought it was the big show with Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and Sammy Davis which he had referred to in his initial interview; it had taken place from January 20 to February 16, 1960. (577) After review- ing all the shows, Zoppi admitted he was very unsure about the date of the scheduled trip to Cuba.(578) Zoppi recalled that the alternative trip on January 4 was probably prevented by Castro’s takeover. (579) Castro assumed power in Cuba on January 1, 1959; he severed diplo- matic relations with the United States on January 1, 1961. Zoppi agreed that perhaps Ruby had gone to Cuba in August 1959 on vaca- raed (Bab). trip Zoppi and Ruby were to take was an entirely different rip. (708) The committee again spoke with Zoppi on September 15, 1978. (581) Zoppi repeated that the trip to Cuba was originally scheduled for December 11, 1958, but he postponed the trip so he could atten and review the December anniversary show at the Sands.(582) H also said that when Castro took over on the first of the year, he decide not to visit Cuba. (583). Zoppi stated it was possible the trip was can celled because of the break in diplomatic relations on January 1, 1961 but believed the trip was cancelled as a result of the Castro takeove on January 1, 1959.(584) Zoppi also stated that Ruby did not give hi an airline ticket.(585) He indicated that sometime later, Ruby aske Zoppi why he did not go to Cuba and Zoppi told him it was “becaus C1anpe trounlgs (586) : oppi also supplied the committee with an articl 1973 called “Ruby in Retrospect.” In it, Zoppi searier Bont a Jack had a good friend named Lewis McWillie who was a casino executive at the Tropicana in Havana. He asked McWillie if he would like me to fly to Cuba and do a story on 169 the Tropicana’s show. Lew agreed and said he would send a pair of plane tickets. The date was set for December 17 , 1960. By coincidence, T received a call from Jack Entratter at the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas inviting me to “the summit. meet- ing”—an unprecedented show featuring Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis, Joey Bishop and Peter Lawford. I called Ruby and told him I would have to postpone the trip to Cuba. until early January because I wanted to see the Sands show. He said he would depart as scheduled and see me in Havana “right after the first of the year.” (587) Statements by Santos Trafficante (710) Traflicante testified before the committee on September 28, 1978. He stated he was detained at T rescornia,(588) but could not remember the exact dates he was there. (589) He recalled Dino Cellini, Jack Lansky. Chuck White (Charles Tourine, Jr.) and Guiseppe de George as being other people held at Trescornia.(590) When about visitors and people who right have assisted him in being asked from Trescornia, Trafticante stated : released [ had a lot of people come and see me trying to help get out, and the attorney that I had was a fellow by the me name to of Mr. Bango, and I think Mr. Gener was interested in gettin me out and a lot of other people that were in the casino busi.g ness, native people, like Mr. Fox and Mr. Petere and Mr. Alfred Gonzalez and Raoul Gonzalez. We had a good rela- tionship and they all tried their best to get me out. (597) Later, Trafficante testified : Let me tell you, Mr. Stokes, this was like a camp. There no—it was a minimum security place. They would was bedy come in. They would let anybody stay with let any- us until 12 o’clock at night. We would coo [sic], we food brought. in, we would eat, we would drink would have would be, sometimes, the guards would come and and there 398)" and eat. Some meal it was like one big happysit down 59 family. (711) When asked about McWillie, Trafficante him “around Havana a lot,” ;(493) however, stated he had seen he could not recall him visite Trescornia, but acknowledged that he might have come. (594) Regarding Ruby, Trafficante stated : I never remember meeting Jack Ruby * * * There reason for this man to visit me. I have never was no seen this man before. I have never been to Dallas; I never had no contact with him. I don’t see why he was going to come me. (595) and visit Regarding John Wilson Hudson, Trafticante testified : Let me tell you what used to happen. I vague Some guy there that was kind of a little bit ly remember I don’t know if it’s him or not. Because there of a screwball. kinds of people they would bring into there; used to be all would bring into peopl e that they there; people that would have difficulty with 170 ble that he was the traveling papers * * * So it would be possi reme mber none of there, but I was to see him how, I would n’t these people. (596) committee previously (712) A confidential source available to the reported Trafficante as saying: sedly a Another guy which I read in the paper was suppo know journalist * * * I remem ber him vague ly. I didn’t even matter that he was a—they used to come and go. It was not a they would stay. (597) kook, a funny Trafficante is reported to have described this man as “a guy, for me he was a mental case.” (598) ; and stated: When he came in there they made him like a joke, he was supposed to fill out his food for the next day, the night before, like * * * Like breakfast and dinner and supper and he had to order it the day before. And that was all in fun, he never would get—until we finally had to give him some of our food. (599) Paskin Allegation (718) In a memorandum, dated January 27, 1964, investigator Al- bert L. Tarabochia, then working in Miami for the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, wrote that on January 24, 1964, he was advised by José A. Gonzalez Lanuza of the Cuban Student Directorate (DRE) that there were “indications of a trip to Cuba made by Jack Ruby in 1963.”(600) Tarabochia wrote that further investigation “revealed that Jack Ruby had visited Solomon Pratkin or Paskin in Havana. Paskin owns and operates a curio shop in Havana across from the Hotel Seville.” (601) Further, Mr. Carlos Valdes-Fauli reported to the writer that he had received a letter from a relative in Havana in which the above information was related. Mr. Valdes-Fauli, when contacted on the evening of January 27, stated that he had surrendered the letter to Agent James O’Connor of the Federal Bureau of Investigation after the agent contacted him at his place of employment that same afternoon. Mr. Valdes-Fauli added that the letter was dated December 19638 and the reference te Ruby’s trip to Cuba was “last year the assassin of President Kennedy’s assassin visited Paskin last year at his home. Pas. kin is a friend and client of Ruby.” (714) An FBI report (602) states that Gonzalez Lanuza said he had received the information about Jack Ruby from a fellow member of the DRE, Juan Manuel Salvat.(603) When the FBI interviewed Sal- vat, he stated he had received the information through a contact of Carlos Valdes-Fauli.(604) The FBI interview report of Valdes- Fauli states: Mr. Valdes related that in approximately the beginning of | January 1964, he received a letter from his sister-in-law, | Graziella Rubio, age 45, who lives in Marianao, Cuba. Mr. 171 Valdes made available the section of the letter pertaining to Jack Ruby, and a translation from the Spanish is as follows: Ruby, the assassin of Oswald, was in Havana a year ago. He is a friend and a ciient of an individual named Praskin, who owns or manages a souvenir shop located on Prado be- tween Animas and Trocadero Streets in front of the Sevilla Hotel. (605) This report also says that Valdes-Fauli “stated his sister-in-law very probably learned the information concerning Ruby through hear- say.” (606) (715) The committee contacted Lanuza Gonzalez on August 2, 1978.(607) He said he had no recollection of talking with Albert Tarabochia about a visit to Cuba by Jack Ruby.(608) He also did not recall reporting such a visit to the FBI. He said, however, that “if Al Tarabochia wrote it, it must be true because he was a very hon- orable man.” (609) (716) Valdes-Fauli was contacted on August 4, 1978.(610) He acknowledged that Graziella Rubio was his sister-in-law. He was asked about the letter sent to him in 1964 by his sister-in-law concern- ing Jack Ruby. He replied, “I don’t recall it.” He was asked if he ever spoke with Al Tarabochia. He said, “N 0, I don’t recall it.” He then asked if he was ever questioned by the FBI, and he responde was “Never.”(611) Finally,he was asked if he was ever questioned d, by FBI Agent James O’Connor. He replied : Never. I don’t recall it. I don’t recall anything about that. I have never been questioned about the assassination of Mr. Kennedy. I am absolutely sure. (612) Valdes-Fauli was then read a portion of the Tarabochia memorandum dealing with his reporting his sister-in-law’s letter to him. His respons was “I am absolutely sure that I have never been in touch with thate agent. I have never received that letter. I am absolutely sure.” (717) Valdes-Fauli was interviewed on August 7, 1978. At (613) that time, he stated that from the time of the telephone interview concerning his sister-in-law’s letter, he had since recalled that he did receive letter from her concerning Jack Ruby.(6/4) He could not a recall what the letter said specifically, but thought it said something about “Ruby being in Cuba at the Hotel Hilton and that he personally Castro.” (615) Valdes-Fauli also informed talked to sister-in-law had since moved to Miami and the committee that his suggested she be inter- viewed.(6/6) He said her name was then Graziela (718) Guerra was interviewed on August 9, 1978.(678) Guerra . (617) She said she recalled sending the letter about Ruby to her brother-in-law did not remember the details. “The way it was then,” she , but she that I sent the information and then as soon as I write it I said, “was try to forget it. It was too dangerous to remember information.” she had no personal knowledge of Ruby’s being in eter She stated Cuba or meeting with Praskin, but had been given the information by some ual(620) whom she could not recall. individ- (719) She related that she did not know Praskin (621) had been given the information “maybe 3 or 4 days beforeand that she ” she wrote 172 considered the informa- the letter.(622) When asked how reliable she tion about Ruby, she stated : Someone else Ruby was definitely in Cuba. I know that. to visit Fidel at told me that he was there and that he went had his vacat ion home. (6223) the place where Fidel (624) Again Guerra could not recall who told her this. e that she was affiliated (720) Guerra also informed the comm itte to Recu bera cién Revolu- with the anti-Castro group, the Movimiene, and she was sometimes cionario (MRR), headed by Mano lo Artim underground operatives to given information by Cuban anti-Castro send out of Cuba. (625) Information provided by the Cuban Government met in Cuba with repre- (721) On March 81, 1978, the committee meeting the committee sentatives of the Cuba n Gove rnme nt. At this They bore the name of Jack was given two Cuban tourist cards.(626) ted from New Orleans for Ruby.(627) One indicated Ruby had depar September 11, 1959. (628) Cuba on August 8, 1959, and leit Cuba on i for Cuba on Septem- The other indicated that Ruby had left Miam 1959.(629) Ruby’s home ber 12, 1959, and left Cuba on September 13, and 4727 Homer, Dal- one card address was listed as Dallas, ‘Texas on “Addr ess during stay las, Tex., on the other . (630) In the space for in Cuba” was written “Capri Hotel.” (637)n Ministry of the Interior (722) Captain Filipe Villa from the Cuba informed the committee that: because in 1963 The only reason we still have these cards is when he par- rted into an impor tant perso n Ruby is conve killing the alleged ticipates in the assassination of JFK by assassin Oswald. (632) about Jack Ruby: Captain Villa made the following statement that we have Conecretely on Jack Ruby. The information name or with about him is that an individual who have that photographs that name filled out arrival airport cards whose on two occa- we gave you this morning. This man was in Cuba in Cuba until sions. The first in August 1959, he remainedhe entered Cuba September 11, 1959. The 12th of Septe mber The reason we once again and he leaves the following day. of who entered got this informatio n is becau se we kept recor ds our country and on those cards the dates appear. ents tomor- We eilite glad to show you the original docum Ruby possessed row. This is practically all the infor matio n of . The cause of this: Ruby came to by the Cuban Government his visit to or Cuba in 1959. There was no reason to monit ely do not know Cuba. He traveled as a touris t. We unfor tunat activi ties were durin g the perio d he was in Cuba. what his Santo Trafficante We could not tell you if he interviewed with time Trafficante or not. It is true that at that same perio d of unite both facts. was being detained in Cuba. But we cannot Trafficante was really not a prison er. He was a foreigner being detained. That 1s to say, that he was at a camp in 173 Havana named Trescornia where foreigners with certain problems were detained for a period of time. But there were no controls as to visitors, and because of this we unfortu- nately don’t know whether the Trafficante-Ruby visit oc- curred. This link between the two of them which we also con- sider extremely important we cannot establish. (632) (723) When McWillie was confronted with the information sup- plied by the Cuban Government, he denied that Ruby was in Cuba from August 8 to September 11, and he also denied that during that period Ruby left Cuba and returned on a 1-day trip.(634) Referring to the tourist cards, McWillie stated : That is clear all right but that is not right, because when he came to visit me he stayed 6 days at the most, he stayed 6 days and there is one foul-up with that ticket or something. If he had stayed there a month, I would say a month, I wouldn’t be ashamed to say it. Jack Ruby was that kind of 5 fellow that 6 days would be long enough to be around him. Tam sure he wasn’t there a month. (635) (724) Regarding Trafficante, Captain Villa stated Trafficante was detained in Cuba on June 6, 1959,(636) as a result of a request from the Bureau of Narcotics of INTERPOL.(637) The Cuban authorities held Trafficante for investigation of a violation of article 19B of the Cuban laws, which covers the expulsion of foreigners who engage in Immoral or anti-government activities.(638) Trafficante was put in Trescornia as a preventive measure while an investigation was being conducted.(639) No proof was produced, and he was released on August 18, 1959.(640) Sometime after August 18, 1959, Comman- dante Manuel Piniero interviewed Trafficante and gave him 24 hours to leave the country.(641) The Cuban Government had no records of when Trafficante actually left Cuba, but estimated it could have been a few days after August 18 or a month later. (642) Captain Villa in- formed the committee that Trafficante’s associates during 1959 were probably Giuseppe de George, Charles Tourine, Jr., Jake Lansky, Lucien Rivard, Dino Cellini, and Henry Saavedra.(643) Captain Villa stated that there was no information that John Wilson Hudson Was ever a detainee in Cuba.(644) The committee also interviewed José Verdacia. Verdacia was the Chief Warden of Trescornia in 1959. (645) He provided a detailed description of the camp, along with a sketch of its layout.(646) He explained that all of the individuals connected with gambling casinos were detained in one “pavillion.” (647) They were permitted to have visitors at the camp,(648) but there was no visitor’s log.(649) Verdacia remembered Trafficante, Dino Cellini, Charles Tourine, Jv. and Jake Lansky as being present at the camp.(650) He was not familiar with the name McWillie or Ruby.(651) Verdacia did not recognize the name John Wilson Hud- son ;however, he did say: I remember an English journalist who stayed there for some days. He had been deported from Argentina. I remember that he used to tell me stories of his staying in Argentina. That he had problems there with Peron because he used to make funny 174 use there was soap stories about Rita Peron, Peron’s wife, becastories that he used by the name of Rita. * * * I remember the * * I don’t have any to tell me. I don’t have any idea of him. * other people. I don’t recollection of him being linked to these with the stay remember whether his staying there coincided , but I do remem- of these other people. I don’t know his name | ber the man. (652) journalist in Argentina (725) Wilson Hudson had in fact been aif “the British journalist” years earlier. Verdacia could not remembericante and the others. If the “vas at Trescornia at the same time as Traff d have been housed in the journalist was there at the same time, he woul cted with the gambling same pavilion as the other detainees conne industry. (653) Handwriting Analysis two Cuban tour- (726) In order to determine the authenticity of the commi ttee had them ist cards and the postcard sent to Alice Nichol s, the s were given photo- examined by two handwriting experts. The expert ard.(654) For the graphs of the tourist cards and the origin al postc drawn on the Mer- sake of comparison, one expert was given a check payable to the chants State Bank, Dallas, Tex., dated July 26, 1962, d and signe d, “Vega s Club, Jack Ruby.” (655) Dallas Times Heral sheet of yellow This expert was also provided with a photo graph of a beari ng nine speci mens of Jack Ruby’ s sig- legal memorandum paper riting, dated nature and three one-s enten ce parag raphs in his handw of the yel- July 18, 1964.(656) The other expert reviewed the original provided low legal memo rand um at the Natio nal Archi ves and was Jack with several photographs of U.S. income tax returns signed by Ruby. (657) re, “Jack,” (727) Both experts concluded that the writing and signatu two signatu res, “Jack Ruby,” on the tourist on the postcard and the the legal cards, were written by the same author of the signatures on other samples . (658) One expert, Charles memorandum paper and the qualifi ed his conclus ion regard ing the tourist cards by stating C. Scott, not origi- that because his examination was based on photog raphs and n was subject to modifi cation should the origina ls be nals, his opinio the submitted and reveal contradictory information not disclosed by photographs. (659) Other Information (728) The FBI interviewed three individuals who recalled meeting a man named Jack Ruby while they were visiting in Cuba. They were two attorneys and an architect, all from Chicago, who had visited Cuba during the Labor Day weekend in 1959—September 4, 5, and 6.(660) They had all visited the Tropicana during their stay and recalled that a man had introduced himself to them. Sherwin Braun believed the man gave his name as Jack Ruby. Jay Bishov stated the man was identical to the man in a picture he had seen in the papers of Jack Ruby. After introducing himself, the man, believed to be Ruby, stated he was originally from Chicago but now owned some sort of nightclub or gambling establishment in Texas, possibly Dallas. He invited the three men to visit his club. 175 (729) All three individuals were reinterviewed by the FBI on April 16, 1964.(667) Both Jack Marcus and Sherwin Braun estimated that the date of their meeting Ruby was the third or last night of their stay in Cuba. (662) (730). The FBI also interviewed William Edward Howard, a friend of Ruby who, according to the FBI report, stated that Ruby made a trip around 1959, “just about the time Fidel Castro took over Cuba.” He stated that Ruby went to Cuba to visit “McKinney” (probably, McWillie), who operated the Tropicana Club in Havana. (663) | (731) A former employee of Ruby’s, Robert Larkin, told the FBI that 4 or 5 years prior to the assassination he had managed the Vegas Club for the summer months, “during which period Ruby vacationed in Cuba.” (664) (732) .Regarding Ruby’s other activities in August and September 1959, an FBI report of a review of the records of the Merchants State Bank states that Ruby visited his safety deposit box in Dallas on August 21, 1959, and on September 4, 1959.(665) Another FBI re- port by SA Charles Flynn indicates he met with Jack Ruby in Dallas on August 6, 1959, and on August 31, 1959. (666) (733) The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) provided the committee with records that substantiate the Cuban information that Ruby took a 1-day trip to Cuba on September 12 and 13, 1959.(667) The records consisted of a Xerox copy of the record of departure of Pan American Airways flight 415 of September 12, 1959, from Miami, Fla., destination, Havana, Cuba, and a copy of the record of Ruby’s departure as a passenger on that flight.(668) A copy of the general declaration and record of arrival of Delta Airlines flight 750 of September 13, 1959, from Havana, Cuba, to New Orleans, La., was also provided, along with a copy of the record of Ruby’s arrival as a passenger on that flight.(669) INS was un- able to provide any information about other trips Ruby may have made to Cuba. (734) A memorandum from the deputy director of plans of the CIA to the FBI provided additional information about John Wilson Hudson. (670) A “usually reliable source” reported on August 8, 1951, that Carl John Wilson Hudson was a Spanish citizen of British descent residing in Chile and a contact of Bert Sucharov, a sus- pected Soviet agent in Santiago, Chile.(677) Wilson was born in Liverpool, England, on December 29, 1916.(672) After arriving in Chile in 1939, in his capacity of journalist Wilson reportedly began “a one-man crusade against the British Government.” (673) Another Source described as “usually reliable” and “whose information was evaluated as ‘possibly true’” reported in 1952 that Wilson was “very probably an intelligence agent,” (674) (735) It was also reported by a “usually reliable source” that on June 18, 1959, Carl John Wilson, a British journalist, sent a cable to the British Parliament and the British Trade Union Federation claiming he had confirmed that the U.S. military attachés in the Caribbean were providing military advice to dictators. In this cable, Wilson Pe ortadly protested these actions “in the name of human- ity.”(675) Another report from another “usually reliable source” stated that Wilson was involved in a planned attack from Cuba on 176 nd of June 27-28, Puerto Cabezas, Nicaragua, during the weeke that the Cuban | ted on July 1, 1959, 1959.(676) Associated Press repor ng to the seizure of: e home of Capt. Paul Hughes was raided, leadi and the A large arms cache and air-sea invasion planslist, sev- detention of two other Ameri cans, a Briti sh journa of an ex- | eral Cubans, and nearly 200 would be members. aguan Presi- peditionary force again st the regim e of Nicar dent Luis Somoza. (677) fied as Carl The article stated that “the British subject was identi in Havan a several John Wilson, a freelance journalist who ad been weeks,” (678) Wilson Hudson. (736) The committee was unable to locate John Police in In response to the committee’s inquiri es, the Metrop olitan Engla nd, contac ted unspec ified gover nment agenci es, but London, d that Hudson | these efforts were unsuccessful.(679) It has beeen allege is dead. (680) | Analysis more than (737) There is very strong evidence that Ruby made Ruby and one trip to Cuba, contra ry to the statem ents made by both t MeWillie. The tourist cards show that Ruby entered Cuba on Augus12, 8, 1959, and left on September 11, 1959, return ed on Septe mber ement 1959, and departed again on September 18, 1959. These suppl Kuby left records the committee obtained trom the 1NS showi ng that 1959, travel ing to Miami , return ed to Cuba Cuba on September 11, 13, on September 12, and traveled on to New Orleans on September could not state with certai nty wheth er 1959. The Cuban Government out these were the only regular commercial flights Ruby made in and s of Cuba. These records, along with Ruby’s safety deposi t box record and SA Flynn’s reports of his visits with Ruby, indicate Ruby made at least three trips to Cuba in August and September of 195¥. (738) The following is a possible scenario for these trips. Ruby met with Special Agent Flynn on August 6, 1959. According to the Cuban tourist cards, he went to Cuba on August 8, 1959. He returned to the United States sometime before August 21, 1959, the date he visited his bank. It is possible that during this period between August 8, 1959, and August 21, 1959, Ruby took the 1-week trip that both he and McWillie mentioned. Ruby again met with Flynn on August 31 1959, and visited the bank on September 4, 1959. Sometime betwee the 4th and the 11th of September 1959, Ruby must have gone Cuba again, because the three Chicagoans had met him there on Labo (740) Regarding MeWillie’s explanation that he invited both Rub and Zoppi to Cuba, this was a trip entirely separate from the Augu 177 and September 1959 visits. Zoppi stated he canceled the proposed trip to Cuba because he wanted to review a show in Las Vegas. Of the several shows Zoppi mentioned, none occurred in the summer of 1959. In fact, all of them were scheduled for the winter months. Zoppi also stated he canceled the trip altogether because of Castro’s takeover, which occurred on January 1, 1959. This supports the assumption that this particular trip was originally scheduled for December 1959, which is Zoppi’s best guess. It has not been possible to determine, however, if Ruby went on to Cuba without Zoppi. It is possible that Ruby did do so, as he told Zoppi he would depart as scheduled and meet Zoppi in Havana “right after the first of the year.” (681) Zoppi also stated that he “vaguely remembers that Ruby told him he had a good time in Cuba.” (682) In addition, McKeown stated that in Janu- ary 1959, Ruby told him he had been in Cuba once on vacation. (683) William Edward Howard also stated Ruby made a trip in 1958 or 1959 “just about the time Fidel Castro took over Cuba.” (684) The allegation that Ruby had visited Cuba in 1962 is probably false. The committee was unable to obtain any corroboration for it. This story was conveyed to the United States after the assassination by an indi- vidual with substantial ties to the anti-Castro community. It could well have been an effort by anti-Castro elements to link Ruby to Castro and thus to a Cuban plot to assassinate the President. There was no evidence that this was the case. (741) Based on the curious nature of the 1-day trip to Cuba via ‘Miami and the existence of a third trip to Cuba, vacationing was prob- ably not Ruby’s sole reason for traveling to Cuba. The inference seems reasonable that Ruby was at least serving as a kind of courier on be- half of gambling interests in Cuba when he traveled to Miami from Cuba for 1 day and stayed in Cuba 1 day on his way to New Orleans. This inference was supported by a number of facts, including: Mc- Willie’s previous trips to Miami on behalf of the Fox brothers, who owned the Tropicana, to transfer funds to a Miami bank; the call from McWillie to gambling figure Meyer Panitz in Miami to inform him that Ruby was coming from Cuba and the resulting meetings between Panitz and Ruby; and the continuing need of Cuban casino operators to protect their assets from possible seizure by the Cuban Government. In dealing with casino operators, Ruby necessarily would have had sontacts with organized crime figures and their associates, including Possibly some who had suffered detention at the hands of the Cuban Government. (742) It has not been possible to corroborate the allegation that Ruby visited Trafficante at ‘Trescornia. John Wilson Hudson was not lo- ated, and Trafficante denied any such meeting, although he did recall ‘n individual fitting Hudson’s description. José Verdacia also recalled 4 British journalist who was at Trescornia. OTHER CUBAN-RELATED ACTIVITIES AND ALLEGATIONS cKeown Incident (743) Treatment by the Warren Commission.—The FBI conducted he investigation of Robert McKeown for the Warren Commission. cKeown initially became a target of investgation when Jack Ruby 178 21, 1963, that “at a stated in an interview with the FBI on December he had read of a time when Castro was popul ar in the Unite d States ,” person in the vicinity of Houston who had run guns to Castro. (685) he had attem pted to contac t this person by tele- Ruby mentioned that simila r equipment phone about the possibility of selling some jeeps or sale to Cuba. (686) Ruby claime d nothing | to persons interested in their iewers , SA interv developed from these efforts. (687) He told the Clements and SA Hall: e When Castro got in, I read in paper where a guy at Bashor to a sold guns to Cuba when Castro was popula r here— going atic countr y and I wante d to sell jeeps and get new and democr hing surplus to make a buck. Tauney, or Elargi, or somet and * * * T can’t recall his name. I called a lawyer in Houst on they said I was too little. (888) Ruby pro- (744) In his testimony before the Warren Commission, vided a furthe r descri ption of the man he had contac ted : (689) I think his name was Longley out of Bay—something— arti- Texas, on the Bayshore. And somehow he was, I read the cle about him that he was given a jail term for smuggl ing guns to Castro. This is the early part of their revolut ion. (690) told the (745) Dallas assistant district attorney William Alexander ascertain FBI on January 14, 1964, that while he was attemp ting to the identity of this person, a source informed him that Ruby had previously contacted a Davis, (69/) an ex-conv ict believe d to be living in Beaumo nt, Tex. Alexan der said that the source though t the Houston of Davis, which resulte d in a con- FBI office handled an investigation viction for gun-ru nning activiti es. (692) d that a (746) On January 17, 1964, the Houston FBI office advise identif ied at Housto n or Beaumo nt, Tex. It did con- Davis could not be jecture, however, that Ruby was probably referring to Robert Ray McKeown. (693) This was a logical assumption as McKeown had been arrested by Federal agents in 1958 for conspiring to smuggle guns to Castro, for which McKeown received a 2-year suspended sentence and a five-year probation.(694) In addition, Ruby could very well hav read about McKeown in the newspaper because when Castro visited Houston in April 1959, McKeown had met with him at the Housto Airport. A photograph in the Houston Chronicle recorded the event 0 April 28, 1959; an article accompanying the photograph quoted Cast as saying that when McKeown could move to Cuba, he would be given post in the government or some franchises. (695) There was also an arti cle in the March 12, 1958, issue of the Houston Chronicle regarding th weapons seized from McKeown’s home. (696) McKeown also show the committee a newspaper clipping dated January 3, 1959, headlin Gunrunner Hails Castro Victory,” which McKeown believed ma have been the impetus for Ruby’s visit. (697) (747) When the FBI located McKeown and interviewed him 0 January 24, 1964, McKeown stated that about 1 week after Cast assumed control of Cuba. Anthony “Boots” Ayo, a patrolman for th Harris County Sheriff’s Office, informed him that someone from Da las, Tex., had been calling the Harris County Sheriff’s Office in @ effort to locate him.(698) According to McKeown, he told Ayo to giv 179 _ the caller the telephone number of his place of business, the J and M Drive-In.(699) According to the FBI report, McKeown stated that about 1 hour later, a person called him, identified himself as Jack Rubenstein from Dallas, Tex., affirmed McKeown’s connections with Castro, and solicited McKeown’s assistance in obtaining the release of three people Castro had detained in Cuba. Rubenstein offered McKeown $5,000 per person, stating that someone in Las Vegas could provide the money. McKeown said he would accept the offer on the condition that he first received some money. Rubenstein replied by saying he would think about it and call again. About 3 weeks after the ale McKeown stated that a man visited the J and M and offered him $25,000 for a letter of introduction to Castro. The visitor, who did not identify himself, stated that he had access to a large number of jeeps in Shreveport, La., which he wished to sell to Cuba. McKeown said that he would provide the letter upon a $5,000 cash down payment. cKeown said that the man “never returned nor did he ever see him again.” (700) (748) McKeown told the FBI his visitor strongly resembled Jack Ruby ;(701) McKeown stated, however, “he is‘not certain that the above-described telephone caller from Dallas or the man who person- ally appeared at the J and M Drive-In was identical with the Jack Ruby who killed Lee Harvey Oswald.”(702) McKeown also stated that he knew no one by the name of Davis who was convicted for run- “ning guns to Cuba.(703) (149) The FBI did not conduct any further interviews of Mc- Keown, nor did they ever confront Ruby with the contention that Ruby had visited McKeown personally. The FBI did interview Anthony J. “Boots” Ayo, who corroborated McKeown’s statement that Ayo had contacted him regarding someone calling from Dallas.(704) The FBI provided the Warren Commission with a report revealing that McKeown was under FBI investigation in connection with the activities of Carlos Prio Socarras and that McKeown had been charged, together with various other persons, with conspiracy ‘to smuggle guns and related equipment to Cuba. (705) (750) The Warren Commission neither interviewed McKeown nor took his testimony. Further, the Commission did not question Ruby ‘about McKeown in either an interview or a hearing. On September 23, 1964, very much later in the investigation, a Warren Commission ‘attorney did telephone Eva Grant, Jack Ruby’s sister, and question her about a sale of jeeps to Cuba.(706) The memorandum of this interview states: * * * she had heard about this venture in the spring or summer of 1959 or 1960. She said that she had been present during a conversation with her brother, although it was not clear if anyone else was present. According to Mrs. Grant, her brother was contacted by a person who owned eight jeeps and wished to locate a buyer. She said her brother saw this as an opportunity to act as a broker just as one might be a broker for any conventional item of merchandise. She also was not sure FA the prospective buyer or seller was located, although when I mentioned Houston to her, she indicated that there was someone in Houston connected with the transac- 130 ers were not specific, tion. She indicated, although her answ that the prospective sale was never comp leted. She also said e sale worthwhile that she never considered the prospectiv Cuba was getting all the since it was her understanding that would not have the Unit ed State s and jeeps it needed from le to give any spe- any use for eight jeeps. She also was unab alth ough she speculated that cific information about the jeeps en-d own jeeps left over from World War they were brok II. (707) n.—McKeown was inter- (751) Additional Statements by McKeow that shortly after Castro viewed on August 27, 1976.(708) He stated Drive-In and informed took over, a deputy sheriff came to the J and M to telephone him. (709) him that someone from Dalla s was atte mpti ng on to provide the caller McKeown gave the deputy sheriff permissi Abou t 30 minu tes later, McKeown re- with his phone number.(7/0) was Rubenstein and ceived a call from a person who said his name ng that he thought that he was from Dallas.(711) Aite r comm enti he knew five people McKeown’s name was Davis, the caller stated that own could obtain being detained in Cuba and wanted to know if McKe their release. (722) ioned Ruby saying (752) This is the first time McKeown ever mention that five people anything about “Davis.” It was also the first ment . were to be released; previously it had been only threesaying he would (753) Rube nste in then term inat ed the call after visit McKeown to review the details. a person personally (754) McKeown stuxted that soon after this call, in Shreveport, some jeeps contacted him and told him he had access to ines in New Mexi co.( 773) He desired to sell La., and some slot mach lette r of intro- the equipment to Castro and consequently want ed a ng this woul d cost $5,000 “up duction. McKeown replied by sayi ers of the front.”(714) The visit or ment ione d that he knew some memb try once while on vaca- Mafia in Cuba and had visited the coun Gold berg tion.(715) The visitor also ment ione d (first name unkn own) idual who posse ssed the jeeps in Louis iana. (716) McKe own as the indiv pape r ary 1959 and prov ided a news thought this visit occurred in Janu er Hails Castro clipping dated January 3, 1959, headlined, “Gunrunn d- accor Victory.” This article may have been the impetus for the visit, ing to McKeown. (777) d that his (755) During this interview, McKeown also commente he had times , a state ment he clai med visitor came to see him three the Warr en Comm issi on. (718) Furth er, McKe own said he told en- knew it was Ruby because the perso n ident ified himse lf as “Rub stein from Dallas.”(719) McKeown originally stated that he had did not ident ify himse lf but received one visit from a man who who strongly resembled Jack Ruby.(720) McKeown stated that he ve never gave any letter or assistance to Ruby because he didn’t recei any monevy.(727) (756) McKeown testified before the committee on April 12, 1978 (722) He said a person identifying himself as Jack Rubenstein (723) t ir called him and said he wanted a letter of introduction to assis acquiring the return of several people in jail in Cuba.(724) Ruben anc stein said that he would soon visit him to discuss the matter 181 also mentioned that he thought McKeown’s name was Davis.(725) A few days later a man visited McKeown and said he was the one who had called. He said he wanted a letter of introduction to Castro for which he would pay $25,000. McKeown agreed to provide the letter if Rubenstein would furnish $10,000 up front.(726) McKeown mentioned that Ruby said he had access to various jeeps, slot machines and similar items. (727) (757) McKeown maintained that Rubenstein revisited him three or four times. He did not tell the FBI on January 28, 1964, that the man never came to see him again.(728) McKeown testified he never received any money and, therefore, never provided the letter. (729) (758) McKeown also testified that he believed he told the FBI about the Ruby visit some time before the assassination and that he visited the FBI the day after the assassination to inform it about Ruby.(730) The committee, however, was unable to locate any rec- ords concerning a personal FBI contact with McKeown before the January 1964 interview. (759) _McKeown’s testimony indicates that his close association with Castro prompted many people to ask him to assist them in affairs pertaining to Cuba and Castro. For instance, McKeown said that after the United States broke off diplomatic relations, he con- tacted Castro to obtain the release of three persons being detained in Cuba who were close friends of McKeown’s brother.(737) McKeown also maintained that a Jack Porter, who he says was a campaign manager for Eisenhower, contacted him around 1959 in regard to approaching Castro. (732) (760) Other statements regarding McK eown.—A CBS news special in 1975 entitled “The American Assassins” briefly mentioned that Ruby had come to see McKeown in 1959, offering him $25,000 for a letter of introduction to Fidel Castro.(733) The transcript then noted that Ruby “never came back” to obtain the letter.(734) During the ‘show, McKeown first publicly acknowledged a contact between him- ‘self and Lee Harvey Ceeartth stating that a few weeks prior to the sassassination Oswald had visited him attempting to obtain machine- guns and bazookas. (735) (761) The British Broadcasting Corporation also interviewed ‘McKeown. (736) McKeown stated on this occasion that a person iden- tifying himself as Jack Rubenstein had called him from Dallas re- garding his association with Castro and requested his assistance in ‘releasing some people from Cuba. McKeown told the caller he could ot discuss the matter because of his upcoming trial (McKeown was Brtencad in October 1958). (762) McKeown stated that the following day a person who claimed he was from Dallas, and who McKeown said was Ruby, visited him nd mentioned that he wanted to visit Cuba on vacation and wanted @ letter of introduction to Castro for which he would pay $25,000. uby also mentioned that he had some jeeps and some slot machines hich he wished to sell to Castro. Ruby said he had never been to Cuba. Ruby then left for Houston and said he would return for the letter. McKeown told him that he would provide the letter for $12,500 up front and $12,500 later, with the entire transaction contingent on Mis meeting Castro. Ruby returned the next day, and the two talked and visited some Cuban friends of McKeown’s, but Ruby never pro- 182 vided any cash. (This was the only time McKeown mentioned visiting with Ruby. ) After return ing again the follow- some Cuban friends . McKeown said money ing day, Ruby still failed to produce any and that Ruby never that in the end he never provi ded a letter 3 returned. (737) was asked if he knew (763) When questioned by the FBI, McWil lie did not.( 738) He also Robert Ray McKeown. He responded that he sale of jeeps or guns denied any contact with anyon e conce rning the ning the release to Cuba, smuggling refugees out of Cuba, or obtai state he wrote or of any of Castro’s prisoners. (739) McWil lie did Las Vegas about obtai ning a pistol . Subse quently, called Ruby from it up at the post Ruby sent the gun, but McWillie did not pick er, indic ated that MeWil lie reque sted Ruby office.(740\ Ruby, howev llie was asked if send four guns to him in Cuba.(747) When MecWi some guns to him in Cuba, MeWil lie he aa asked Ruby to send stated: didn’t No, sir, I have been asked that a dozen times and I sent do that. In the first place, Jack Ruby couldn ’t have Cuba. any guns to Cuba and I couldn’t have gotten them inned to If I had, I hate to think what would have happe me. (742) he knew Mc- (764) The committee also interviewed Ayo, who said lman work- as a patro Keown very well in 1959 when he was employed that while ing out of the Harris County Sheriif’s office. (743) He stated him to go to on patrol, he was contac ted by the sheriff , who asked r and relay McKeown’s place of employment, get the phone numbe the number, the information back to the office. McKeo wn gave him med by the and Ayo did as requested. Ayo stated he was not infor sheriff of the reason for the request . (744) on to the (765) Inconsistencies in the McKeown material.—In additiections of obvious differences betwee n Ruby’s and McKeo wn’s recoll ies per- their mutual association, important, substantive inconsistenc meate McKeown’s accounts. Some cf the key ones are: who (1) How and when McKeown determined that the person had visited him was Jack Ruby ; , @) The number of people Ruby wished to get released from uba; (3) When the Ruby-McKeown contacts occurred ; (4) How many times Ruby visited McKeown in person ; al (5) The amount of time between the phone call and the person visit or visits; (6) Whether McKeown ever heard Ruby ask about Davis; and (7) When McKeown first spoke to the FBI about these contacts. (766) Analysis.—It has not been possible to confirm or refute Mc- Keown’s allegations. The most that can be said is that Ruby probably made some kind of contact with someone, possibly McKeown, in Texas regarding something related to Cuba. This statement alone is con- sistent with the inference that Ruby’s trips to Cuba were not merely for vacation. If McKeown’s allegations are in fact true, which again the committee was unable to determine, this would lead even more credence to the committee’s theory regarding Ruby’s trips. (767) If Ruby did in fact take at least three trips to Cuba and on at least one of these trips was acting as a courier, there is a strong pos 183 sibility that he was interested in pursuing other interests, such as selling jeeps or guns to Cuba or obtaining the release of prisoners. This possibility is supported not only by McKeown’s statements, but also by Ruby’s. Ruby admitted he had contacted someone regarding the sale of jeeps to Castro.(745) Ruby also reportedly told Wally ‘Weston, “They’re going to find out about Cuba, they’re going to find out about the guns.”(746) Ruby’s repeated insistence that he only took one trip to Cuba is an additional indication that he was involved in activities not normally associated with vacation. Selling merchandise to Cuba would also be consistent with Ruby’s history of involvement with several money-making schemes, e.g., twist boards, razor blades, log cabins and pizza crusts. (747) Thomas Eli Davis IIT, Allegation (768) After Jack Ruby told the FBI that he had contacted an indi- vidual in Houston, Dallas assistant district attorney William Alex- ander reported on January 14, 1964, that he had learned from some source that Ruby had contact with a Davis, described as an ex-convict delieved living in Beaumont, Tex.(748) The Houston FBI office re- ported on January 14, 1964, that they had failed to locate a Davis either in Houston or Beaumont, Tex.(749) In a March 19, 1964, memo- randum, Warren Commission attorneys Hubert and Griffin wrote: Ruby has acknowledged independently that, prior to the time that Castro fell into disfavor in the United States, he had been interested in selling jeeps to Cuba. Ruby stated that he contacted a man in Beaumont, Tex., whose name he recalled was Davis. The FBI has been unable to identify anyone en- ' gaged in the sale of arms to Cuba who might be identical with the person named Davis. (750) (769) Seth Kantor, in his book “Who Was Jack Ruby ?,” identifies Davis as Thomas Eli Davis III.(757) According to Kantor, Ruby ullegedly told his first lawyer, Tom Howard (deceased), that he had ‘ntended to begin a regular gunrunning business with Davis. (752) Kantor also alleged that Davis was in jail in Algiers at the time of the President's assassination(753) and was bailed out by QJ/WIN, a CIA employee.(754) Kantor also stated that Davis was killed in September 1973 while stealing copper wire from an abandoned rock rusher site in Wise County, Tex. (755) (770) A review of Davis’ FBI file indicates that in June 1958, Davis ittempted to rob a bank in Detroit for which he received 5 years pro- vation.(756) Davis’ probation supervision was transferred on Octo- er 7, 1958, to the U.S. Probation Office in Fort Worth, Tex., and gain on September 20, 1960, to the Probation Office in Beaumont, Tex.(757) His probation was terminated on February 21, 1962. (758) (11) An FBI memorandum, dated June 25, 1963, reports that Davis: In May 1963 placed ad in Los Angeles, Calif., newspaper offering military-type employment to former military per- sonnel with specialized backgrounds. Investigation instituted to determine if possible neutrality matter violation existed or if matter of intelligence interest to this Bureau. Persons who answered ad interviewed and it was determined subject [Davis] indicated the military-type employment consisted of going to Haiti with an independent group to overthrow the 184 Haitian President Duvalier. Subject interviewed and it was determined he is employed as a freelance writer who was at- tempting to develop material for an article he hoped to pub- lish. The article was to deal with the soldier-of-fortune and the method used in organizing an army and the type of men employed in such an army. He was desirous of nei the attitude of the U.S. Government concerning the type of laws violated and possible punishment for any such violations. To determine this, he placed above mentioned ad in the news- paper. * * *(759) (772) A May 1963 airtel to the SAC in Los Angeles from the Di- rector of the FBI advised that the “CIA through liaison channels” had informed the Bureau “that the matter designated in retel was not a CIA operation.” (760) This airtel was probably referring to Davis’ actions discussed in the above FBI memorandum. (773) The FBI file reflects that the Bureau received several State Department telegrams in December 1963 that concerned Davis. (761) An FBI memorandum, dated December 20, 1963, to the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State states: Reference is made to the incoming telegram received by your Department on December 10, 1963, from Tangier, Morocco, your control number 6690. It was stated therein that Thomas Eli Davis, Jr., was being held by the Moroccan National Security Police because of a letter in his handwriting which referred in passing to Oswald and to Kennedy assassi- nation. (762) (774) The State Department’s passport file indicated Davis appliec for a passport on January 31, 1963, in New Orleans. A State Depart ment telegram from Tangier, dated December 10, 1963, states that Davis was arrested on December 8, 1963, for trying to sell pistols. His wife was also with him. The telegram comments: Moroccan National Security Police [Interpol] claim at- tempted sale of pistols minor but holding Davis on basis rambling, somewhat cryptic, unsigned letter in Davis’ hand- writing which refers in passing to “Oswald” and to Kennedy assassination. Letter also suggests intended addressee at- torney Thomas G. Proctor donate money to Johnson’s cam- paign. Proctor’s address: Hotel Iroquois, 99 West 44th Street, New York. (763) The committee was unable to locate Proctor. (775) It was also reported in this telegram that Mrs. Davis told th consulate general that Davis was a “soldier of fortune.” She salt he worked in Indochina, Indonesia, Algeria, and Cuba, always 01 the “Western side.”(764) She stated they left the United States 01 November 2, 1963, and arrived in Tangiers via London, Paris, an Madrid on November 28, 1963. (765) (776) Analysis —Due to limitations of time and resources, th committee did not thoroughly investigate Ruby’s possible connectio with Davis. It did not interview his wife or other relatives, nor did 1 determine exactly what Davis said about the assassination. It was possible, therefore, to confirm Kantor’s allegation that the Davist .¢ 185 whom Ruby referred was Thomas Eli Davis ITI, or that Ruby going into the gunrunning business with him. It was also not was possible to determine if a CIA employee, QJ /WIN, assisted in the release of Davis from the Moroccan jail. QJ/WIN’s CIA file was reviewe revealed nothing about Davis. The committee made no d but effort to interview QJ/WIN, whose role in the CIA’s assassination planning apparatus, code-named “Executive Action,” was detailed in the report, “Alleged Assassination Plots Involving Foreign Leaders,” of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence in 1975. Meeting with the Fox brothers (777) During his Warren Commission testimony, Ruby identified the Fox brothers as the owners of the Tropicana.(766) He the Fox brothers came to Dallas “to collect a debt that some manindicated the Cotton Gin Co. here”(767) and that he had dinner with owed. one of the Fox brothers at the Luau Restaurant at Love Field in Dallas. (768) Ruby stated: | There is a very prominent attorney in Dallas, McCord. McCord represents the Fox brothers here. They called me because the Fox brothers wanted to see me, and I came down to the hotel. And Mrs. McWillie—Mr. McWillie was married to her at that time—and if I recall, I didn’t show them off at the airport at that time. This is when they were still living in Havana, the Fox brothers. We had dinner at—how do you pronounce that restaurant at Love Field? Luau? That serves this Chinese food. Dave McCord, I was in his presence, and was invited out to dinner, and there was an attorney by I name the of Leon. Is he associated with McCord ? And there was McLane. (769) | (778) The committee spoke with David McCord on Septem 1978.(770) When asked about the dinner with Ruby ber 28, Fox brothers, McCord stated that the meeting did occurand one of the ut the Luau Restaurant but involved McCord, Ruby, at Love Field and the Guadano rothers, Robert and Bernie.(771 ) McCord stated that Were businessmen from Great Neck, and had busine the Guadanos ss dealings with McCord in a company operating in Honduras.(772) McCord claimed she meeting was social in nature.(773) The committee che Guedanos. did not locate (779) Inhis book, Kantor disclosed some information which tended to indicate McCord’s credibility may beabout McCord e stated that McCord: questionable. Gave up his license to practice law rather than face disbar- ment proceedings when aneped with involvement in a shady securities deal. Then, in July 1976, McCord was arreste numerous other charges, including conspiracy and mail d on Involved in a bogus silver mine investment scheme. (774) fraud he committee did not confirm this information, eo) The other attorney who was allegedly present at this dinner fred E. McLane, was killed in a taxi on March 16, 1963. he Fox brothe (775) Both rs were also deceased. 481) ‘There is additional evidence that Ruby did know the Foxes, Auby stated in an FBI interview that while in Cuba he spent all of his 186 on one occasion with time in Havana “except to go to a small area ” (776) Ruby also one of the Fox brothers who owned the Tropi cana. was delay ed by Cuban custo ms agent s because of the stated that he one of the Fox broth- discovery in his luggage of a photo graph of also stated that, he intro duced Ruby to the Foxes. ers.(777) McWillie (778) Earl Ruby Telegram to Havana January 9, 1964, (782) An Internal Revenue Service report, dated originating from contained an analysis of long distance telep hone calls in Springfield, Mich., Earl Ruby’s (Jack Ruby’s brother) residence On January 9, 1964, and from Cobo Clean ers in Detroi t, Mich. (779) Earl Ruby about the long distance calls IRS Agent Anstett questioned on April 1, 1962, he made in 1962. These calls inclu ded a teleg ram sent rs. When asked about the telegram, to Havana, Cuba, from Cobo Cleane remem ber.” (780) Earl Ruby stated , “That’ s a teleg ram isn’t it—I don’t in his report that: Agent Anstett later made the statement of Comments were offered easily and freely until the item sation the Havana telegram. After a brief pause in the conver this item. Agent Anstett specifically requested a comment on was After another pause the above-mentioned comment made. (787) n Commission, (783) Earl Ruby, in his testimony before the Warre | again was unable to recall this telegr am. (782) commit tee depose d Earl Ruby on July 20, 1978. At that (784) The telegram to time, Earl Ruby indicated that perhaps he had sent the e “he is the only one I would have known in McWillie becaus McWillhie, stated, referr ing to Cuba.” (783) Later, however, Earl Ruby I ever saw him or talked to him was a year or two ago! “The first time 783) in Veras,”(784) although he knew of MeWill ie throug h Jack.( g Earl Ruby also stated, “I swear on my oath that I don’t know anythine about it except that it is possible I forgot and I may have sent McWillisent a telegram.” (786) Earl Ruby admitted that if the telegram were it would have been sent by himself and not one of his employe es. (787) to (785) On August 17, 1978, Earl Ruby wrote the following letter the committee: Regarding telegram alleged sent to Cuba in 1962. I checked with post office here and learned that there are six Cubans in the United States and now I’m snre the telegram in ques- tion was sent to a Cuba here in the United States and not to Havana, Cuba, or any other place in Cuba. I therefore must go on record as stating that at no time did I ever send a tele- gram to Havana, Cuba or any place in Cuba. There is a Cuba in each of the following States: Alabama, Illinois, Kansas, New Mexic», New York, and Ohio.(788) The IRS report listing the telegram specifically stated, “Havana Cuba;:” however, the committee was unable to obtain the origina telegram. (786) Earl Ruby testified before the committee on September 26 1978. At that time, he stated: Again, I wish to state under oath I never sent the telegram. I have no idea what took place. It wouldn’t be the first time 187 that there was an error in billing our telephone. As counsel brought up something that I didn’t even think of, he said if it had been a telegram to Havana, Cuba, that it would have been listed as a cablegram. Also, again I wish to state that I had no idea or any thought of sending a devious type of telegram to Cuba for some reason or another. I would be very foolish to send from my own telephone, I could have gone to a local Western Union and done something like that. So, again I wish to state under oath I never sent a telegram to Havana, Cuba. I don’t know how it happened. That is about it. (789) Jack Ruby's familiarity with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (787) Another small indication that Jack Ruby was at least familiar with some Cuban activities occurred during the night of November 22, 1963. At that time, there was a press conference involving Oswald at the Dallas police station. Ruby was present.(790) During the confer- ence, District Attorney Henry Wade was asked about Oswald’s being a Communist. According to Wade’s testimony before the Warren Com- mission, this is what occurred : And I said, well, now, I don’t know about that but they found some literature, I understand, some literature dealing with Free Cuba movement. Following this—and so I looked up and Jack Ruby is in the audience and he said, no, it is the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. (791) Nancy Perrin Rich Allegation (788) Nancy Perrin Rich was first interviewed by the FBI on No- vember 27, 1963.(792) At this time, she claimed that she worked for Ruby in July and August 1961.( 793) Rich claimed that following her discharge from Ruby’s employment, she attended four meetings in Dallas of a group arranging to sell Enfield rifles to Cuba. Rich stated Ruby was present at three of these meetings, as was a U.S. Army colonel.(794) Rich also stated she made her husband pull out of the operation and did not know if in fact any guns were sent to Cuba. (795) On December 3, 1963, Rich signed a statement which contained sub- stantially the same version of events as in her FBI interview, (796) although she only mentioned two meetings. (789) Rich was again interviewed by the FBI on December 5, 1963. (797) She said she worked for Ruby for 5 weeks and that “she not like Ruby and that he had treated her badly and that she did quit the job after a quarrel and fight with Ruby.” (798) After leaving employ, a “Dick C.,” a bartender who would arrange prostitu Ruby’s tion dates or her, arranged a meeting for her and her husband with solonel “in connection with taking Cuban refugees from anCuba Army Miami.”(799) They met with the colonel, and “it was propose to her d that husband pilot a boat to Cuba and pick up Cuban refugees and eturn them to Miami.”(800) She attended a second meeting at which there were 8 to 12 people, including Jack Ruby.(80/) Again discussed the refugees. They also discussed sending Enfield they Castro.(802) Rich claimed that at this meeting she said she rifles to Want to have any part of these activities because she was did not United States. According to Rich, Ruby then “made a speech, loyal to the mn the table, getting red in the face, but she could not recall banging exactly what he said.”(803) Rich claimed there was a third meeting about 2 188 said she days later at which Ruby stayed 15 to 20 minutes.(804) Rich phat attended no more meetings. (805) (806) © (790) At this time, Rich was given a polygraph examination. she had taken the drug She was extremely nervous and indicated ph ex- methadrine on the date of the examina tion.(8 07) The polygra aminer concluded the test results were inconclusive based on Rich’s past medical history and use of drugs. (808) The FBI report went on to state: The examiner observed however that significant emotional responses recorded by the polygraph led the examiner to be- lieve Perrin’s story regarding Cuban arms meetings 1s untrue. The examiner is of the opinion she has a tendency to de- lusions of grandeur. (809) (791) The FBI also interviewed Cy Victorson, an attorney who represented Rich when she was arrested in August 1961. (810) Victor- son described Rich as “being an habitual liar, who found it difficult to tell the truth.”(8/1) A Dallas policeman also described Rich as a “nsychopathic liar, who got great delight out of telling wild tales.” (812) The FBI interviewed Dave Cherry, probably the “Dave C.” to whom Rich referred.(813) Cherry indicated he knew Rich but claimed to know nothing about running guns to Cuba. (874) (792) Rich testified before the Warren Commission on June 2, 1964, repeating substantially the same story.(8/5) She added that her hus- band was to receive $10,000 for his services,(876) and that they had counteroffered with $25,000.(877) Rich also added that when Ruby arrived at the second meeting, the “colonel rushed out into the kitchen or bedroom” and Ruby had a “bulge” in his pocket.(878) According to Rich, when Ruby came out of the room, the “bulge” was gone. (879) (793) The committee did not investigate this allegation and pos- sessed no additional information to refute or to confirm Rich’s story. D. Rupy’s TELEPHONE Recorps From 1963* ANALYSIS BY THE WARREN COMMISSION (794) During the Warren Commission’s investigation, counsels Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert had recommended in a memorandum that steps be taken to obtain and preserve a large number of tele- phone records involving Jack Ruby and numerous associates. (820) Specifically, they asked that the FBI be instructed to secure the rec- ords and that Commission Chairman Earl Warren address a lette to the various telephone companies to assure that the records not destroyed.(82/) While the Warren Commission and the FBI did ob tain some of the records, an extensive effort to collect them was no carried out. Griffin stated that Commission general counsel J. Lee Ran kin vetoed their full request because the effort would have been t burdensome and was too far-reaching. (795) The Commission and the FBI failed to analyze systematicall and to develop the data in those records which were obtained. (822 *Prepared by Howard Shapiro, research attorney, and Michael Ewing, sta researcher. 189 In a subsequent memorandum, Griffin and Hubert advised that they were in need of further assistance in evaluating the records, saying that they would need the services of additional personnel to undertake a competent analysis.(823) It was suggested by Rankin at one point that Chief Justice Warren’s security guard might be able to devote some time to the project.(824) In the end, the actual analysis contem- plated by Griffin and Hubert was never fully conducted because of limited time and resources. REVIEW BY THE COMMITTEE (796) The committee obtained the records acquired by the Warren Commission, as well as others from various sources, includ- ing the FBI, former New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison, and the telephone company (A. T. & T.). These records encompassed a broad range of persons both known and unknown to Jack Ruby (but speculatively associated with him), as well as individuals associated with Lee Harvey Oswald, and others. Among the records acquired and reviewed by the committee were those of: Ruby and his brothers and sisters; Associates of Ruby, such as Lawrence Meyers, Alexander Gruber, and Lewis J. McWillie; 7 Individuals called by Ruby in 1963, such as Barney Baker and ‘Frank Goldstein; The companies which in 1963 employed Baker (Chicago Loop Auto Refinishing Co.) and Myers (Ero Manufacturing Co.) ; J. D. Tippit, the Dallas policeman slain by Lee Harvey Oswald after the President’s assassination ; Bruce and Karen Carlin (Mrs. Carlin worked for Jack Ruby under the stage name of Little Lynn) ; Carlos Marcello, an important organized crime figure; _David Ferrie, an individual linked with both Marcello and Lee Harvey Oswald; Robert Maheu, Sam Giancana and John Roselli, individuals involved in CIA plots to assassinate Fidel Castro in the earl 1960’s; and “Dutz” Murret, the uncle of Lee Harvey Oswald. (797) This list is only partial, and in many instances the records ob- sained included phone calls for only a portion of the 1963 period. In some instances, the committee’s requests for telephone records could rot be accommodated. The committee also had access to and used frag- nented telephone numbers and numbers whose subscribers were un- ple Citythee roves hi g ~- St Street State contained, it is mutually agreed as follows: In consideration of the mutual promises herein bargaining agency for all hereby recognizes AGVA as the exclusive collective 1. AGVA RECOGNITION: The Employer employed or otherwise engaged by the Employer during the term of this Artists in the Variety Field now or hereafter agree that AGVA represents a majority of the Artists employed by the Em- Agreement, and the parties hereby mutually to mean all actors, singers, dancers, and other performers or entertainers in the Peas “Artists”, as used hercin, is defined who act solely as orchestra or band lezders or solely as musicians in orches- ariety Field, but does not include persona tres and bands. all Artists employed by him or his that all Artists whose services he uses, and will remain such members 1n 2. AGVA SHOP: The Employer agrees members of AGVA in good standing, and representatives, directly or indirectly, will be t. good standing throughout their employmen retain in membership = it is an open union and will admit to and 8. AGVA MEMBERSHIP: AGVA agrees that to the Constitution and By-Laws, Rules and Regulations of AGVA wi Artists the Employer wishes to employ subject from AGVA or marked Unfair by AGVA or its affiliated organizations the exception of persons suspended or expelled or persons who are guilty of conduct unbecomi ng a union member. in the Associated Actors and Artistes of America,the employment of persons suspended or expelled as 2bove provided, The Em~ ~ agrees not to employ or continue with any other Artist unless each and every such Artist ‘223 that he will not require any Artist to work end fur® “ is 2 me’ ; -30@ standing of AGVA. t shall be on or shall be deemed to be on the AGVA Standard Form 4. AGVA CONTRACTS: All contracts of employmen shail prevent any Artist from negotiating better terms and conditions of Artists Employment Contract. Nothing herein or in the Standard Form of Artists pola ‘Contract of employment than those contained in this Agreement SEmploymer.t ntrac maintain with AGVA adequate security suitable to AGVA in the fort 5. BONDS: The Employer agrees to deposit and of, and welfare contributions for, the Artists who are, have been or wil of cash covering compensation and trausportation of security deposited with AGVA at any time curing th request the return be employed by him. Should the Employer understood and without it 1s specifically ani agreed that AGVA, at its option, may forthwith term of this Agreement, ; i notice terminate this Agreement. State 6. GOVERNMENTAL BENEFITS: The Employer agrees to abide by and live up to all present and future laws and statutes enacted for the protection of and appli County, Municipal and Federal ordinances, rules, regulations, applicable to employment of the Artists hereunder. cable to the employment of employees and more specifically contractors and the Employer assumes all res ronsibilits Artists shall be considered as eraplosees and not independent ecin Compensation, Unemployment Insurance, for the gs ment of all taxes and contributions under Workmen’s tits curity, Old Age Pension or any other law applicable thereto. to thi that any and all controvers ies and disputes arising out of or relating a ARDITRATION: The Employer agrees shall be settled and determined by "AGVA. All claims arisin Agreement or out of the Employment of Artists hereunder in writing to AGVA within thirty (30) daya after such ¢ rx hareunder or out of any emp oyment must be presented and sufficient reason for any delay shall be presented to AGVA. chill huve arisen, unless at the option of AGVA, good in the establishment of the Employer and Teth ° : deputies for its membersEmployer . . ° ~~ sf LESENTA TIVES: AGVA may designate VPP ven rm >. agrees to admit nny authorized the imp over nicrees not to discriminate against any deputy or deputies; hally and backstage at all times. The Ee to the premises of the Hmpleyer including rehearsal revertative of AGVA * } over further agrees not to discriminate against uny Artist for suomitting any xtievance to AGVA. You 9. LAWS GOVERNING: This Agreement shall be construed in accordance with the laws of the Stnte of New 203 10. TicRM OF AGREEMENT: This Agreement shall terminate on December 30 of this year and newed for one year and successive one year periods thereafter unless shall be automatically re- party to the other not Iater than November 30th of any one year, written notice to the contrary i3 given by either Should existing conditions of the Employer, such a3 seating capacity,by registered mail with retum receipt requested. Prices, etc. be materially changed by the Employer, then this couvert charge, rninimum charge, liquor and food Agreement may be terminated at any tine by AGVA and Aad Employer agrees to enter into a new agreement for new minimum conditions for Artists based upon such new con- itions. -- : - =. aid |ade 11. TERMS AND CONDITIONS: The Employer agrees that the minimum ment of Artists by the employer are those contained herein, and in terms and conditions governing the employ- AGVA, and the Employer agrees tu abide by and live up to all such all present and future rules and regulations of terms The Employer agrees that employment of Artists shall be subject to AGVA’s and conditions and rules and regulations. Rules and Regulations, all of which are incorporated herein and made part hereof by reference. * MINIMUM COMPENSATION: The Employer agrees that the minimum compensation for Artists shall be ns fol- OWS: Principals qe Oe pore: ae ly net per person per week Chartered esc s y Pe STO Bae. net per person per week There shall be no docking because of performances omitted or for Chorus Artists shall apply to ensemble work in unison only. Choruscancelled by the Employer. Minimum compensution duction number or work in bits shall receive additional salary equivalentArtists required to step out of line, lend a pro- to not less than 25% of the minimum sa of that Chorus Artist’s then prevailing salary. y 13. WORKING CONDITIONS: No Artist shall be required to give more than Any performance in excess of such number each night shail be Wosecewnevee DeTLOrmances each night. an the weekly compensation of the Artist. No Chorus Artist shall be extra performance and shall be paid for pro rata at permitted to work more than six (6) days a week, ! oad number of days to constitute a full work week. No Artist shall be dismissed later than two A.M., local time, on any y- f The Employer agrees to provide the Artists with a safe place to work; to provide all Artists; to provide safe, clean and sanitary dressing rooms (with separate adequate sanitury facilities for Artists) accomodations for male and feinale at the place of employment, and to make adequate provision to safeguard and street clothes and other valuables of the Artist. insure the costumes, minke-uyy, 14. TELEVISION: The Artist shall not be required to perform or appear the Artist ta perform or appear, directly or indirectly, in television regardlessnor ofshall the Employer request or resuire without first securing the written consent and approval) thereto of AGVA. the point of origin of the telecnat 15. MUSIC: The Employer, throughout the term of this contract, shall furnish according to the usual to the Artist live music: accompaniment standard of his establishment for ail performances the F:mployer further agrees to provide live full orchestra rehearsal at the of the Artist at the Employer’s expense, und Employer's own expense for each Artist prior to the first performance. 16. SIGNATORIES: It is agreed that if this Agreement is signed by a Firm or Corporation as viduals signing this Agreement on behalf of said Firm or Corporation Pratings and the Employer, the indi- thereto with the Firm or Corporation. This Agreement shail not be bin ing on AGVAseverally agree to be bound equally until countersigned by the Nation: Administrative Secretary of AGVA. 17. WELFARE FUND: The Employer is advised of an AGVA Welfare for AGVA members. To assure the benefits of said Welfare Program to theProgram which provides for welfare benefits performers engaged by the employer, (he employer accepts the Program and agrees to make contributions to the AGVA Welfare Fund as follows: 1. $1.00 per person per engagement per day 2. $2.50 per person per week of six days or more $3.50 per 3. person per week for engagements outside the Continental limits of the United States and Canada. The Employer shall file or cause to be filed with AGVA prior to or upon performer, the Weekly Booking Report form showing the names of each commencement of the engagement of each _ week, his respective engagement contract compensation and such other performer engaged during the then current _ forms shall be made available by AGVA Welfare Fund to the employer. information as that form May require. Such The employer shall pay to the AGVA Welfare Fund simultaneously with the filing of such forms, the amount applicable listed on the report. The undersigned Employer upon execution of this Agrcementfor the type of engagement for performers to the AGVA Welfare Program and the Agreement and Declaration of Trust does hereby adopt and become a party shall constit.:-- notice by the undersigned Employer to the Operator Trustees dated Attire |6th, 1953, as amended. This gram and Ag>-ment and Declaration of Trust of the acceptance by theundersigned and AGVA Trustees named in said Pro- tions thereof and the designation of such Operator Trustees and their successors in Trust. Employer of the terms and condi- : ; salen , IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties have hereunto set their hands and seals the day and year first above written. a eeereew eevee: Em toyer 0 YEILLE A, i ull Name of Owner (Pe Yh ldo ldq ional Representative or Branch Manager ; ‘ é qe (State Title of Signer if Firm o : 5 eaeremenoe \i.? yond #9 ' Bysiness Address of Owner Nv7/ National Administrative Secretary orn shona ee erewenneennwrowense, Mratine tre SOLALEM (State Name of Club, Cafe, Hotel Room, Restaurant, Ete.) CLUE... rad: (To be filled in by Branch) AMOUNT OF INITIAL BOND LOTS, Reise i eavegy 83 UU 103 RECEIPT NO vivicdsooe Wy Sale 210. Wiel eiPrem inc! See TIS 3s50k si RECENT : DATE hth bob as S in Z "y 9zZ WW et sic 2 ’ \ National [Representative or Branch hfanager RETRENE 204 AGYA STANDARD FORM OF ARTISTS ENGAGEMENT CONTRACT 9 GF ) ARTISTS REPRESENTATIVE CA. ef [Pa popy1: +g hy QL SUITE $00 —1500 JACKSON STREET R17-2856 RI 7-2842 | DALLAS 1, TEXAS NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS Amerisan Guild of Variety Artsis Aci hanno 551 FLETH AVENUE (A Branch of the Associated Actors ond Artistes of Amorica) | New wa pi.Noe (Affiliated with the AFL-CIO) Membership No. 4 ed Paid to £17 4/t___! IN é-o) bis’, . “ 3 ; ene 19.63 between Checked \y Ls att. AGREEMENT made this....... ABs Pree day of...... iD] =Yol-) lo) _y ; Ralph Peul < (e arosel. Club) bE =r hereinafter called the “Operator” and Date Checked Whe “WALLY WESTON... hereinafier called the “Actist", Membership No. crneenne——e-nne Bond. MBA... Welfare 7[a 5 EE re CS, = ee ee ee eossnees . AGVA Se ts that he is the operator hereia at the present time and for the duration of this contract, and engazes the oe ihe Meera Feil hisses said engagemeot, to present his act under the direction, supervision and control of ta: Operator, os a Be ee 25 Re ie eT of...OMa.....( L ) persons, at the. CARO S ZL CLUA —_______, =~) > +:5 fou = pried ofc! LG ek eee in the city PRES STs Ra ee Taree ( sedic) showedal consecutive weeks, 7 ) days weekly, commencing Sy. duondays wlaniOs = Melee forwhich the Operator agrees to pay the Artist, and the Artist 31 lel 19.6), 1.40. Hundred twenty. Five..Dollars .($ 225400 ) weekly, Fa tale ped Cree ag berger acer on the concluding night of oe week’s engagement hereund: er. seg ey 2. Artist hereby gives and grants to Operator the option of extending this agreement for__..- WO _Oro Week _¢ 2 } sve’ edlitna periods HN 8Be dence has eter ace ) oe eaenict thseeigilalson es mor upon the same terma and conditions as contained herein for the original period hereof. The . westy payment during each option period shall be... -0. Hundved Twenty Five pottars ($225 600). Each of these options to be effective ‘oust be exercised in writing by the Operator not later than...L37O..W@BK weeks (days) prior to the izati receding period. This contract, including all options, may not exceed one year. (See reverse side.) (NOTE: On engagements read roa rieKGVA Holes require written notice the day following the opening; on engagements of 2 oc 3weeks, the Rules require at least one week's written notice and on engagements of 4 or more weeks the Rules require at least 2 weeks’ written notice.) 3. IN THE EVENT THE ENGAGEMENT OF THE ARTIST SHALL BE CONTINUED BY MUTUAL CONSENT BEYOND THE THE ARTIST SHALL BE DEEMED EXPIRATION DATE OF THIS CONTRACT (ORIGINAL TERM AND OPTION PERIODS, IF ANY) TO BE ENGACED BY THE EMPLOYER ON A CONTINUOUS EMPLOYMENT BASIS, SUBJECT TO ONE WEEK’S WRITTEN NOTICE | OF TERMINATION BY EITHER PARTY TO THE OTHER. ALL OTHER PROVISIONS OF THE ORIGINAL CONTRACT SHALL CONTINUE IN FULL FORCE AND EFFECT THROUGHOUT SUCH CONTINUED ENGAGEBIENT. 4. IT IS A CONDITION OF THIS AGREEMENT THAT THE ARTIST BE A MEMBER OF AGVA IN GOOD STANDING UPON THE EXECUTION HEREOF AND SHALL REMAIN IN COOD STANDING FOR THE DURATION OF THIS CONTRACT. The parties jointly and severally agree that the Artist's obligations hereunder are subject (a) to the Artist’s prior obligations to AGVA as a rmembert f, (b) to - AGYA’s Rules and Regulations, Constitution and By-Laws, as of the date hereof, ead (c)-to the Rules and Regulations of the ACVA Branch in| whose juri«diction the Artist performs hereunder insofar as they are not in conflict with those of the Netional ACVA. ; 5. The Artist shall render his act in the variety field exclusively to the Operator throughout the term hereof unless otherwise provided herein or otherwise consented to by the Operator in writing. ; , 5 6. The Artist authorizes the Operator to deduct from the above-mentioned compensation such sum as may he necessary to establish and/or ~ maintain his good standing in AGVA and to pay such sum to the Jocal AGVA representative upon demand. The Operator shall receive from such representative and shall deliver to the Artist, the proper AGVA receipt therefor. 7. All the provisions of any agreement now existing or which may be entered into hetween the Operator and AGVA are incorporated herein, and made .. ~ b+reof, and shall govern the engagement of the Artist hereunder. : 8. i - .-~*s “Artist” aod “Operator” as used herein include and apply to singular and plural members and all genders wheresoever the ecostext *.: (3°. 98 5 §. “ice .-*lst shall not be required to perform or appear nor shall the Operator request or require the Artist to perform or appear, directly or indirectly, in Tsicvision regardless of the point of origin of the telecast without first securing the written consent and approval thereto of AGVA- 10. The Operator, throughout tke term of this contract, at his own expense shall furnish to the Artist live musical accompaniment according - to the usual standard of his establishment for all rehearsals and performances of the Artist. 1L AGVA WELFARE TRUST FUND: The Operator is advised of an AGVA Welfare Program which provides for welfare benefits for AGVA members. To assure the benefits of said Welfare Program to the performers engaged by the Operator, the Operator accepts the Program and agrees to make contributions to the ACVA Welfare Trust Fund as follows: : é 1. $1.00 per person per engagement per day. : 2. $2.50 per person per week of six days or more. ‘ per person per week for engagements outside the Conti- . : Z ae ; nental limits of the United States and Canada. : >». 12 SUPPLEMENTAL AGVA WELFARE FUND: The Operator is advised of a SUPPLEMENTAL AGVA WELFARE FUND which pro- vides for welfare benefits for AGVA members. (This ia in addition to the AGVA Welfare Trust Fund.) The Operator agrees to make contributions - - to te SUPPLEMENTAL AGVA WELFARE FUND as follows: -_ ‘ ; L Weekly Engagements (5, 6 or 7 days) - $1.00 per person per week. 2. Engagements of less than 1 week—35¢ per person for the Ist day: Z uf 35¢ per person for the 2nd day; and 30¢ per person for the 3rd day. i - rs, : (Upon the payment of the total sum of $1.00 per person in a week, -G ms Bo further payment shall be required for that wee.) 3 : - 13. All claims other than commission claims that may arise out of this contract must be presented to AGVA in writing, withia 30 days, _ e otherwise AGVA will not sssume any responsibility for processing same. : : : : + 14. Agent failing to ascertain artist's membership status before signing of contract, shall be subject to prompt disciplinary action. 15. A copy of this contract must be filed with AGVA prior to the opening of engagement date stated above. 16. This contract is pay or play. : : ; 17. _ REMARKS: (MUST BE INITIALED BY ALL PARTIES TO THIS CONTRACT) : Operator agreesto withhold ten Per cent { 10 } of ‘Artists Salarr- each week and. mailto C APappy Dolsen-~ , " 18. Io WITNESS WHEREOF, we have signed this agreement on the day and year first above written. 4 OPERATOS..... Carasel. Clu... Ralph Pawh. oc blee. /t,€ Fall came of ovner (person, firm or corporation) ; sagemaeate ee MAB Stage EONNowe ns aes : eR TINTS H : mea N }ao acent:...C.A Pappy Dolsense | ee ce seseeees: Foll signstare ae lace ete eel el ale eel ae te eh he eel ate he tt het oe a oy ela ghanne peal eeonion ek oa aes eee ee ee ---- 19. This is to certify that... Wally Weston cio cebtymnacel appearing atc. CAROUSEL CLUS Se ee Name of Arist Name of Club, Theatre or Establishment Cuy is protected hy the ACVA WELFARE TRUST FUND AND SUPPPLEMENTAL AGVA WELFARE FUND PLANS, commencing. Jan... 6,1 vse for which the un:l-esigned assumes responsibility for the contributions, OPrCRVaTnr. 4 205 F. Prorites or Jack Rupy Assocrarss * INTRODUCTION (865) The committee undertook an extensive review of Jack Ruby’s friends, associates, and contacts in an effort to develop information re- lating to his background, activities, and possible criminal associations. The committee made an effort to examine more closely the full dimen- sions of Ruby’s life, focusing in greater detail on his associations than was attempted by the Warren Commission or the FBI. In this connec- tion, staff papers were prepared containing investigative profiles of a number of his associates and contacts, some of whom had organized crime connections. (866) The following biographical summaries of these individuals are intended to provide a more complete picture of the range of Ruby’s associations and activities, with emphasis on various criminal associ- ates.** These staff papers were prepared at various times over the life of the committee. The information in them was: taken from law en- forcement and other files. (867) It was not in all cases independently verified and should not necessarily be taken as the truth. Further, not all of the staff papers were updated as new material was developed or depositions of the subjects were taken. Consequently, they should be read as what they are: working documents summarizing relevant and irrelevant infor- mation, not all of which could be or was verified. i, Andrew Armstrong, Jr. Biographical Summary (868) Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was born on March 20, 1937, in Pittsburg, Tex. He left school after completing 11th grade and moved to Dallas.(994) He was then 16 years old and has resided in Dallas ever since. (995) He has had a variety of occupations since leav- ing school. His first job was as a caddymaster at River Hills Golf Course.(996) When Armstrong left there he went to work at Wilson’s Cafeteria in the Republic Bank Building.(997) He then worked at Vick’s Restaurant.(998) From there he went to Vinson Steel Corp. where he filled orders for cut stainless steel and magnesium. (999) From 1958 to March 18, 1961, Armstrong was in prison on a narcotics charge. After his release, he began working at the E] Rancho Hotel as a night clerk.(7000) Following this he worked as a maintenance man at the Holiday Hills Apartments, which belonged to the Hunt Oil Co.(1001) Armstrong said he never met H. L. or Lamar Hunt. (7002) He worked at the apartments until Christmas 1961. (1003) In January 1962, he got a job at the Marilyn Belt Factory. (1004) While working there, he also took a part-time job at the *Prepared by T. Mark Flanagan, Jr., Leslie H. Wizelman, Ann F. Taylor, staff researchers, Howard Shapiro, research attorney, and Donald A. Purdy, Jr., senior staff counsel. **A number of profiles are followed by the depositions of the individuals taken by the committee. In one case, a copy of the staff summary of the interview With the individual hag been included. 206 Carousel Club for Jack Ruby.(1005) During June 1962, Armstrong began working full time for Ruby(1006) who employed him as a bartender and general maintenance man for a salary of approximately $45 per week plus tips.(1007) Armstrong worked at the Carousel un- til February 1964. (1008) (869) Armstrong had an arrest record, although it was not exten- sive.(1009) During the 1950’s, he was arrested for burglary and re- ceived 2-years probation.(1010) He also had one narcotics arrest, for which he received a 5-year sentence. (201) On March 18, 1961, he was released from the State penitentiary after 3 years.(/0/2) There was no indication of any association or connection with organized crime figures or involvement in organized illegal activities. Statements by Armstrong (870) The Warren Commission’s examination of Armstrong was extremely comprehensive. He was interviewed by the FBI on several occasions and also testified before the Commission. (/0/3) | (871) As stated earlier, Armstrong was employed by Ruby from 1962 to February 1964. Armstrong testified before the Warren Com- mission that he first met Ruby in May 1962 when he asked him for a job.(7014) During an interview with the committee, however, Arm- strong indicated that his first contact with Ruby had actually occurred during the 1950’s while he was part of a song-and-dance group tha performed in the vicinity of the Vegas Club.(/015) Nevertheless, he said that the first formal meeting occurred during mid-1962. (1016) In his deposition before the committee, Armstrong further explaine that he had sung with a group called the Vinos who had appeared a the Vegas Club.(7077) At that time, he did not know Ruby well, an when he subsequently asked Ruby for a job, Ruby did not remembe him. (1018) (872) Armstrong’s relationship with Ruby was that of employee employer. When Armstrong first went to work for Ruby, he work as a bartender and general maintenance man.(/0/9) Gradually, ac cording to Armstrong, his duties and responsibilities increased. (1020) * * * my responsibilities grew in putting down the receipts in the books, going to the bank, things like that, and making sure that there was enough girls, there are enough waitresses, going and putting ads in the paper. They just grew.(102/) (873) Armstrong told both the Warren Commission and the com mittee that Ruby operated the club on a cash basis. (1022) Ruby woul go to the bank “once or twice a week,”( 7023) but Armstrong believ Ruby kept most of his money “in his purse on his person.” (2024) Em ployees and purchases for the club were paid in cash.(1025) The ren was paid with a cashier’s check. (1026) (874) In Armstrong’s opinion, the financial condition of the Car ousel was “not good.” (1027) He stated that the average receipts we $900 to $1,000 per week. (7028) In his deposition, Armstrong said tha in the fall of 1963 the club was “doing a little better than we had be in the past year.”(1030) Armstrong stated that Ralph Paul had financial interest in the club, but that Ruby di n : Paul, Armstrong stated that uby did'not, (1077 ano 207 ** * if anybody gave him [Ruby] money, he probably would have got it from Ralph. That’s the only place I know of ever getting money. (1031) him (875) In another interview with the committee, Armst that during the weeks immediately prior to the assassi rong stated nation, Ruby had accumulated $6,000, $3,000 of which he had planne d to give -Paul.(1032) When Ruby was arrested, the $3,000 was confisc Armstrong gave the remaining $3,000, which was in ated, and his possession, to Paul. (1033) (876) Armstrong indicated that Ruby kept a pistol in a Mercha ‘State Bank money bag.(1034) He did not recall ever seeing nts with the pistol in his pocket or stuck in his waist belt. (1035 Ruby club closed in the evenings, the receipts were turned ) After the over to Ruby, (1036) who would put the money in the money bag along with the pistol and take it with him. (1037 ) (877) Armstrong stated that the Carousel Club was in good ing with the Dallas police, but there were no specific police stand- visited the club.(7038) Patrolmen would stop in to check on men who and have a cup of coffee. (1039) Armstrong told the Warren the club sion that the policemen were given a discount on beer, the Commis- same price charged to newsmen, bellboys, and hotel clerks—40 cents. (1040) Arm- strong stated that he had never seen members of the vice squad take anything to drink when they came to the club.(7047) When asked in his deposition if Ruby ever gave discount rates for beer Armstrong stated: If he did, it wasn’t that often; we could have had 40 cents. You know, I could have charged somebody less than I did _ the regular customers, like they would come and sit at the bar or something, if Jack OK’d it. I can’t remember who all got the rates. It’s been too long. (1042) 878) When Armstrong was asked if the strippers employ Ruby’s club engaged in prostitution, he stated that there were ed in vho did, but they acted without Ruby’s knowledge or consen a few tuby did not gamble, as far as Armstrong knew, althou t. (1043) gh he did sarticipate in a few poker games. (1044) He did not know of any other sarticipants in these games, except for Ruby’s roommate. (1045) 879) Ruby was described by Armstrong as “always on the make.” 1046) Ruby dated often, although Armstrong knew of no specifi letails. (7047) Armstrong denied that Ruby was a homosexual c 16 had any sexual perversions. (1048) or that 880) Armstrong also described Ruby as “worried and disturb ways.” (1049) He stated that Ruby was often angry and threate ed 0 fire him on several occasions. (1050) He had told the Warren ned ussion that Ruby never hit anyone but always gave the impress Com- hat ion he might do so at any time.(1051) Armstrong never knew 9 use any physical violence except to throw people out of the Ruby 1052) club. 881) The only trips Armstrong could recall Ruby taking Tew York and New Orleans. (1053) He stated that the New York were to trip vas to secure the services of a dancer named Jada. (1054) Armstr ong 208 stated in his interview, however, that Ruby told him this trip was to sell a gun for a friend of his in Cuba.(1055) Armstrong indicated in his deposition that Ruby went to New York to visit a friend. (1056) Armstrong added that “it might have been the time when he [Ruby] bought those guns.”(1057) When Armstrong was questioned further about the guns, he stated that Ruby bought three guns, but he did not know what kind.(1058) He bought one for Eva Grant, his sister, and one for “his friend” who was in Cuba.(/059) Armstrong added, “I don’t know how he got it over.”(1060) Armstrong had no knowledge of any trips to Cuba. (1061) (882) In an FBI interview, Armstrong described his activities on November 22, 1963.(1062) He took a bus from his home and arrived m downtown Dallas at approximately 12:25 p.m.(1063) He walked to the Carousel, arriving there at approximately 12:30 p.m.(1064) While in the men’s room, he heard sirens. (1065) Becoming curious, he turned on. the radio and heard the announcement that the Presidential motor- cade had been fired upon. (1066) He then attempted to awaken Curtis “Larry” Laverne Crafard, who was sleeping in a room at the club.(1067) Unable to do so, he listened to the radio for a few more minutes.(1068) He then returned to Crafard’s room and this time: woke him up.(1069) According to Armstrong, Ruby telephoned ap- proximately 5 or 10 minutes later.(7070) He believed Ruby was call- ing from the Dallas Morning News because he could hear typewriters in the background, and it was Ruby’s habit on Friday mornings to go to the newspaper offices to place his weekend advertisements for the club.(1071) Ruby talked to Armstrong for 3 or 4 minutes and informed him that: “If anything happens, we are going to close the club.” (1072) Armstrong heard the official announcement of the President’s death at approximately 1:30 p.m.(1073) About 15 or 20 minutes later, Ruby arrived at the club.(2074) Armstrong believes this was at approxi- mately 1:45 or 1:50 p.m.(1075) Ruby informed him that the club would be closed for the next 3 days(/076) and then made several phone calls.(1077) Both heard over the radio that an Officer Tippit had been killed, and Ruby mentioned that he knew him.(/078) Armstrong told the FBI that Ruby remained at the club until approxi- mately 4 p.m.(1079) In his Warren Commission testimony, however, Armstrong stated that Ruby left at approximately 2:35 p.m., return ing at approximately 4 p.m.(1080) Armstrong indicated that Ruby was on the phone almost the entire time he was in the club.(108/) He claimed he heard Ruby make phone calls to Ralph Paul and to people in Detroit, Chicago, and Los Angeles. (1082) He also remembers that Ruby called Eva Grant and Dr. Coleman Jacobson.(/083) He stated that some time between 2 and 3 p.m., a woman called asking for Ruby and gave the name of Alace.(1084) Ruby was on another phone at the time of this call.(085) Armstrong stated that when Ruby left the club he took the money bag with the gun in it.(2086) Armstrong left th clubs at approximately 4 :30 p.m. (1087). (883) In his Warren Commission testimony, Armstrong stated tha on Saturday, November 23, 1963, he spoke to Ruby at approximatel 1 p.m. regarding Larry Crafrad’s leaving the club.(1088) Ruby ar rived at the club at about 6 or 7 that evening.(7089) He stayed for 209 short time, leaving between 7 and 7:30.(1090) Armstrong closed the club and left at approximately 8 p.m.(/091) In however, Armstrong had stated that his last contact an FBI interview, with Ruby before the Oswald shooting was about 9 p.m. on Saturady (884) Subsequent to Ruby’s arrest, Armstrong evening. (1092) talked Belli, but did not testify at the trial. (7093) Belli did not to Melvin use Armstrong because of his previous criminal record. (1094) (885) Armstrong did visit Ruby in jail, but he stated liscussed the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. (1095) Rather they never sussed the business at the club, as Armstrong continued , they dis- ifter Ruby’s arrest. Armstrong also delivered Ruby’s mail operating it and relayed my messages from Ruby’s employees. (1096) (886) Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assassina- slons. 210 STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES UNITED SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS HOUSE oo000000 United States Federal Building Magistrate Courtroom 16-F23 U.S. 1100 Commerce Steet Dallas, Texas Tuesday, May 23, L390 S20 pe ih. APPEARANCES: DONALD PURDY, taff Counsel Co he coe ue Conmmldc cmon Assassinations Washington, D.C. 20515 LESLIE WEIZELMAN, Research Analyst Select Committee ‘on Assassinations Washington, D.C. 21051 5 SWORN TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR. 211 P, R.0) CB ED. IN. 6) 5 (Committee Rules and Resolutions tendered to the witness.) Whereupon, ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR. was duly sworn and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. PURDY: Q Please state your full name for the re Come. A Andrew Armstrong, Jr. Q. Please Lae your date and place of birth. A. March 20, 1937, Pittsburg, Texas. Q. What is your present address? A. 135126. Mbntfort,. 1048. 0. Thatesé innDaltlace A. Dallas. Q. How long have you resided at that address? A. Four years. Q Where did you live before that? A. Pleasant Grove, Dallas. 0. And how long have you lived in Dallas all together? A. Since 1948. 0. What is your current employment? A. S&D Oyster Company. 212 And that's in Dallas? That's in Dallas, How long have you worked there? A year and seven months. Are you married? Yes. Do you have any children? Wes, Sire What is your wife's name? Mary Ann Armstrong. How long have you been married to her? VEX yaks. Following the assassination the Carousel Club was closed. When was that? Pebruary, the-first of February, It was closed in February, 1964? Ves p Slim. What did you do for employment after that? Sold wigs. You sold wigs in Dallas? Yes. hat irae the name of the company? I just thought of “it the other day. £ was telling somebcdy about it. 213 A friend of mine named Clint Patrick had it. Maybe I will think of it down the line, the name of the company. It was one of those things where you put a bunch of wigs on and you peddle them, you know, peddle wigs up and down the street. The Crown and Glory Wig Company. It is a matter of public record in the Warren Commission Report the arrest that you had prior to the assassination. I guess the most significant one was in terms of sentence was the three years you served for marijuana; is that right? That? Ss right: The record indicates that you got out of prison on March 18th, 1961; is that record correct? March 18, 1961? I would have to check my records, but I am pretty sure that is probably pretty= close Who did you go towork for when you got out of prison? Jack. And what -- Nor TO, 6ilG.. imwent= to -wrk-f2arst for>=-—-'thestirst 214 job I had was at a little motel up on Harry Hines. I don't remember the name of it, but it should be in the records there somewhere. What were the circumstances surrounding your arrest for the marijuana? Well, the circumstances were, a friend of mine was dealing, and I was with him. So they arrested you for dealing or for possession They arrested me for dealing. And they convicted you of dealing? The guy -- they only picked up one. They only remembered one name, and that was mine, you know. It was just the circumstances where I never could get him to come down and tell them that he was the one and it wasn't me. Has he subsequently gone to prison for any offenses? Been in there ever since. What is his name? His name is Leon Adams. Was he part of a larger operation or was he pretty 'much’-a one-man -- One man. Do you know where he was obtaining the drugs? No. 215 Did he have a regular supplier? L' don't. know, He kept. grass all of the time, you know. | \ Was any kind of criminal organization in Dallas in terms of like franchising drug sales or was it disorganized and loose? Disorganized. You don't think your friend had to pay off anyone to conduct his business? | NOs tale WOUD te! He rever did have no more than a little dak of it, anyway, you know. It was not a major operation? The only thing I ever seen really was cigarettes around on the street, you know. In 1955, you were arrested for burglary. Were you involved with anyone else in that event? Well, that was the case where we was out one night and we came upon a recreation center and it was open. You came up on what? Recreation center, and the recreation center was open. Apparently somebody else had went 216 in there, so it was -- it was a neighborhood recreation center. We knew the place ver well, so instead of going home we just stopped and baked some cakes and things like that. The guys that was in it, that was in the recreation center, had broke in the school house. I think that's the way it was. Okay. Now, I caught up with them after the schoolhouse, so I got put in for both of them. There wasn't nothing I could tell them, you know, so we baked cakes, I eiyiaky from supplies that was brought over from the schoolhouse. Had they been involved in previous burglaries or breakins? I don"t know.’ >I ‘doubt ~= ‘I -don't) know. Do you know if they were involved in any such subsequent to that time? I believe so. T don turtedal YP whack” bu most "of them stayed into trouble, you know. So you believe they were arrested for similar incidents ‘later? I think, «2 »think J am «the ionlyvoned iia aies stayed out of trouble since, you know, that is, 217 8 1 big trouble. 2 In fact, I don't even remember all 3 of thems" names. 4 Q. Do you remember some of their names? 5 A. Let's see. I think Jones was with us. P 0. What is his first name? . A. Curlie or something like that. Curlie Jones, 3 and I. think that -- who else was it. I don't 9 recall, 10 Q. In your Warren Commission testimony .you indicated n that you were considering trying to get a 12 pardon for the marijuana arrest, and I believe 3 it also indicated that you had to get a sponsor a who was a member of the police or sheriff's 15 department. : A. Yes .. oir. a, Q Do you remember that? 18 A Veg. sir) 19 Q. Did you ever obtain such a sponsor? A. ee I obtained him, and I knew you was going to ask me his name, but I can't remember it. He used to be on the corner up there on Akard up in. front, of the. Adolphus Hotel. 19 Do you remember considering a number of people for a sponsor before you picked one? MH-105 0 - 79 - 15 218 - 9 No. He was the one that told me about it, the policeman. He was the one that told me about Le He said that, you know, he would work on it, go talk to the Judge. He said, "I will sign them,” you know. "T will sign the papers for you." How did you get friendly with him? Just by being on the corner all the Le re would eat there at the drugstore at the Adolphus. He was always there. He and I was on the same corner every day, you know, all day. Does it refresh your recollection to know that in your Warren Commission testimony you indicated that you were considering a Lieutenant Gilmore and a Sheriff Decker? I could have said I considered them, yes. Were they, either one, individuals you finally decided upon? I don't recall. I would have to go get those papers. Maybe somebody else signed those papers other than that pceliceman, I almost called his name then. He used to bring me fish when he 219 10 went fishing. Well, we can come back to it or talk®to*y6u at a subsequent time and see if you can recall that. Okay. There was a minor difference of facts in between your Warren Commission testimony and the previous interview you had with our staff concerning the first time you met Jack Ruby. Uh-huh. The Warren Commission indicated that you met him in the spring of 1962 when you first went into the Carousel for a job. Was that the first time you met Jack Ruby or had their been a previous contact in the late 1950's? z Yes. I used to go over to -- with a group that -- we came out of West Dallas, and we used to go over there and sing. We used to take them over there and they would sing and make money by people pitching pennies and quarters to then, you know. D> Would you sing near the club or in the club? fod TivechneMe Tubs In the Vegas Club. 19 And that was when Jack Ruby ran the Vegas Club? Ne That was when Ruby ran the Vegas Club. 220 bl I knew Jack -- I didn't know him that well. knew who he was and he knew who you were? But you Yes. No. No. He didn't know who I was. TVama sorxzy< When I went up to get a job, he know who I was. I told him that I used didn't come over there with the Vinos, and he to me but I could have been with them, remembered there was a guy always with them. I used because to pick the money up. called the Vinos? | The group was Yes. Was there any particular reason you hadn't mentioned that incident to the Warren Commission? I don't know why I didn't mention it to them. Maybe it was just -- out of all of the things that was happening then, you know, man, you know, everybody was shook up. You mentioned that you had visited the Vegas Cinhb. Did you ever visit the Longhorn Ranch Club? The Longhorn? 221 iZ At Corinth and Industrial Streets? Yeah. I have been to the Longhorn. Oh,.What, dig. lagot to.the Longhorn for? For some reason a couple of times. Do you remember the part of the club called the Plantation? Yes. The Old Plantation, sure. Did you go there for entertainment? No. I don't think we ever. went there for entertainment. Yes, we did. We sure did. It was in the '50's sometime, but I don't remember. In other words, you went there just for enjoyment? NOine- noe I went there with the group. With the group? They was singing there. The same group, the Vinos. Did you know who was running the Longhorn Ranch Club at that time? Not unless it was Pappy. Pappy who? Pappy Dolson. Pappy is the only one I can think of wight now. 222 ES Do you remember Jack Ruby operating the Longhorn 1D nN Ranch Club? > No. Do you remember Dewey Groom operating the > 1 WN Longhorn Ranch Club? Yeah, I remember Dewey operating it. Did you know him personally? No. You just knew who he was? I just knew who he was. Did you know of any of his other activities besides that? No. Did you ever visit the Colony Club? Sune. Was that with this group? I visited the Colony Club when I worked for Jack. What caused you to visit the Colony Club then? Well, because I knew the bartender there. Who was the bartender? Lae esses Let's see. Danny's brother. Let's see. Danny was the bartender at the * == ———— Theatre Lounge, and he had a couple of brothers that did the bar at the Colony Club, and I don't remember their names. 22 223 14 Do you remember Danny's last name? No; Sisdonit . Did you ever work in the Colony Club or the Theatre Lounge? No. Did you ever apply for a job there? No. Did you know the owners of those clubs? Sure. Barney and Abe. Weinstein? >2 Yes. Did you know them personally? Not personally. I just knew them, you know. They knew my name and I knew theirs. I would visit their boys and they would come down to visit me sometimes, you know, when we didn't have anything to do. Usually we all got down to the clubs fairly early /cl0200 solteclock, -you know, to let the beer in and get cleaned up and everything, and then in the afternoon before business started we didn't have anything to do, you know, and I would walk up to the liquor store or go across the street to the drugstore, you know, and we would visit each other, you know. 224 15 any strict limitations on blacks Was there of these clubs in the late '50's? going to Bare Oh, sure. sections within the club or Were there special certain clubs you couldn't go were there just com the problem was, you know, you just didn't Well, go, you know. that you visited Abe's Colony Club But you said and the Theatre Lounge? but that was all right because I worked Yes, | in the business. I didn't go in to drink or have a anything. | beer or You just went in to see people there? at the band, you know. I knew the Yes. Holler qiris: Did you = ——EE__—____—______________ ever visit the Egyptian Lounge? c—) Not then. I have recently. You didn't in the late '50's or early "605s? 2 No. When would you say, approximately, the first time was when you visited the Egyptian Lounge? PHSChEOhT OVS y “$9299 335 I met Corkie, and I might have seen 225 _ 16 Joe a few times before that. I don't remember where. You are talking about the Campisis? Yes, but I met Corkie when I worked for Arthur's Restaurant on McKinney starting in -- oh, what was it -- '73, so I have been knowing Corkie since '73. Now, I have been asked this before. I might have seen Papa Joe before that, and Joe could have been in the Carousel. I could have seen him at the Vegas Club. When you say Papa Joe, you are talking about Joe Campisi? I am talking about Corkie's father, because Joe seemed to have remembered me from somewhere, and the only other place he could remember -- I know irda ones mMesteenunk ace Antnurss, pecause, Lr don't ever remember him Sirti Seve in there with Corkie. The only other restaurant I know he had been, so the only other place I could have met him -- as a matter of fact, I just talked to him two or three months ago. My little nephew got out of prison 24 and went to work over there, and I didn't want 25 him to work over there, so I went over there and 226 . 7 talked to him about it. Went over to work at the Egyptian Lounge? Yes. Why didn't you want him to work there? you know, you have got a lot of hooks Well, there and, you know, I am hip on Joe's, working say about the Campisis, you know, so what they figured it was the best thing for him I just not to work over there, you know. words, your nephew had been in trouble, - In other and -- before, and I went by and talked to Yeah, he was parole officer, md she said that she had the about it after she okayed him to work thought there, so we all got together and decided over he should quit. That was just here recently. So he did quit? Yeah. He is working at a car wash now. The War ene onm se oe record is a little unclear on exactly the nature of your responsibilities working for Jack Ruby. Apparently they began, as you described, where you began working as a part-time bartender? 227 18 Uh-huh. ho 1D How often did you work in the early stages for w Jack Ruby, how often each week? > ie I worked regular each week. 5 19 Sc it wasn't just a part-time bartender job? No. Ls) You started out, when you went in that night you started full time? ed Maybe they mistook my cleaning up and bartending, too, as being part time. L=) Oh, I see. You worked for him full time, but some of your job’was bartending and you did other things? | 3 My job was doing everything there, getting all of the beer and stuff, everything. Did your responsibilities change over the time you were there or -- No. My responsibilities grew. Le} How long were there, about 18 months? > I was there up until the time he -- until, well, January of -- I mean February of '74. Le) How long did you work for him, then? > From '61, from the time I got out of prison, after about three months, I imagine. I don't know how long I had been out. 228 rg I didn't work at that motel long. If! recall, but like I say, around tnree don't months. After that I was just passing the Carousel one day when I was downtown looking for a job, and I just walked up there. So you say your responsibilities grew. What extra responsibilities did you other than bartending and cleaning everything get up? my responsibilities grew in putting down Well, receipts in the books, going to the bank, the like that, and making sure that there was things girls, there was enough waitresses, going enough and putting ads in the paper. They just grew. Then, it was just like you would be a manager of a club, you know. ‘So they grew up until the time of the assassina- then you were actually in charge after tion, and the assassination for awhile? ibis Sure. There wasn't anybody but me in charge after the assassination. What dealings did you have or did Jack Ruby have with the American Guild of Variety Artists, 229 20 the entertainment union the strippers were a nN member of? Well, he got his strippers through them. Fo How would that work? 5 Well, they was members of the union, and the union girls got paid more than non-union girls, you know. The union girls were considered to be the best. They was considered -- you know, they traveled all over the country.: Some of them had big names. Some of them had billboard names. Well, Jack would call his -- the girls' booking agent, some of the agents, and tell them who he wanted, and they would send them over, you know, they would get together and book the girls in there, you know. Would he only book union girls? At one time we did have mostly union girls. He wanted mostly union girls, because that's what Abe and Barney had, and he wanted it like Abe and Barney: You are talking about the Weinsteins? Yes'< Did the union have a rule that if you hire some 230 Zi union you have to hire all union? the girls amateurs. You couldn't You had to call have them as professionals. Unless they were members of the union? Yeah. It worked that way sometimes. Listen, it's been so long on some that they have slipped my mind of these things as to how these things worked. pay the union a fee for cetrting: = Did he have to he had to contact them about getting 10 you said iB strippers. Did he have to pay the union a fee? to send the union money for using Yeah, we had or you had to pay half of the girls the girls, as they worked for you. There was as long we had to pay the union for so many something Tins. If we had four girls, it was so for each girl that we had to pay the much union. | I don't recall how much it was. Now, wasn't just a one-shot deal? When you So it first hired one you would pay them something it would be kind of a regular thing, that else; ever so often you would pay them something 231 hie and -- Yeah, once a month or whatever it was. Did you ever have to do any work in contacting the union? I have carried money over there to the union. Prior to the assassination? I would say yes. Both probably after and -- I don't recall going afterwards, but yeah.' Did you pay them in cash? Most all of our business was transacted in cash. The business with the union was in cash also? Yes. That's all we had was cash. Was there ahyeH he that was paid by check? No, siz: Was the rent paid by cash? Cashier's check. I went to the bank and got it. In other words, you didn't use a cashier's check for the -- | If we used a check it was a cashier's check. It would either be a cashier's check or -- well, mostly cashier's check. But the money you took to this union, you took in cash? I can't remember. Approximately how much money was involved that 232 23 you would take on a visit to the union? a couple of hundred dollars, kip things Oh, like that. The biggest bill I had was the lights, the electric bill. That usually would run or eight or five hundred dollars a month. seven I remember paying all of -- I don't ™ I paid the rent or not. Yeah, I oo know whether oOo did pay the rent at times. you took the money to the union, did you have 10 = When to itemize, like did you have to list the number of people or did you just pay them a general amount of money or -- Yeah, I just gave it to them. They knew how much they had coming anyway. If we had so many girls, they had so much money coming. Who was the person you would see over at the union? I have forgotten his name. He used to come down to” the club’ a lot. m dont recalled . Is his name Tom Palmer? Tom Palmer? I couldn't say. How about Vincent Lee? Call another one. James Henry Dolan? —oOoooooeeoEoe—eoEToa—————————————oe 233 | 24 A. No. | Q. But you remember somebody who worked at AGVA, | at the union, came to the club a lot? A. Yeah. They had their offices over where the Greyhound Bus Station is now. I mean Continental Bus Station. : Q. Did they have a big office? A. No. It was no bigger than the rest of the offices over there. They was all basically the same. 1 Basically cne or two or three people? How many people including secretaries? | A. One secretary to a guy. That's all I remember. | 0. So whoever was the AGVA person was the one who | { came over occasionally? | | A Right. @) What would be his purpose in coming to the club, | just to see how things were going? | A. Yeah, to just come in and have a few beers and holler at the girls. 0. Would he get special treatment? Would he get free drinks and things? A. No. | 0. Would he be on the rate that a number of | different categories of people were on, like | a eee eee ae Ce ee eee [Sa aa acereietretabeprearenasincs ea = HH~105 0 - 79 ~ 16 234 25 or whatever were able to clerks and policemen rate? Would he be on that buy beer at a cheaper cheaper rate? 60 cents, if I remember right. No. The beer was and if anybody went in The beer was 60 cents, they paid the same thing. their pocket, seldom Jack told me he got Very You know, we was open for somebody's tab. wasn't open to give away anything. business. We recall Jack picking up, buying I can I can't remember who it a round of drinks, but was for, you know, at times. testimony indicated there Your Warren Commission rate of like 40 cents» abeer was a discount of people, policemen, some for certain types or something like »sthat. clerks, Do you'remember that? bartenders and cocktail waitresses Well, like and things like that? Yes. | that often. We could have If we did, it wasn't You know, I could have charged had 40 cents. than I did the regular customers, somebody less would come and sit at the bar or like they something, if Jack okayed it. 235 26 I can't remember who all got the rates. It's been too long. In the fall of 1963, do you remember Jack Ruby or your club having any problems with the union? Do you remember any problems about the amateur night policy that they changed sometime in the fall? It was something like -- I don't recall. I think it was something about the amateurs, but I don't recall what it was about. How did the amateur nights work that you had? Well, these girls would come in and they would get so muah money, whatever it was, $10 or $15 a piece, to get up there and do their little ching. Sometimes it was -- the audience thought it was people just coming out of the audience, you know. They didn't go up in a gown. They just went up there in regular street clothes. The idea was to let them think that it was a girl off the street? Yeah, but a lot of times we had the same customers, and a lot of the customers knew that they wasn't off the street. 236 27 kind of liked them going up in their But they and taking their street clothes street clothes oft? Yes. And it was funny, too. "amateur," obviously you meant to But by the word impression that these were people who convey the off the street and decided to take just came their clothes off? was the whole idea. And all the clubs Yes. That the same girls. They would leave the used and come to the Theatre Lounge and Colony Club the Theatre Lounge and come to the Carousel. leave was the difference between those girls So what the union's girls? Were the union strippers and Jinet che the 1024" tesr they was better, better trained, prettier, Yeah, more sexier, you know. Better pay, too? It was strictly art, yeah. Better pay. You know, their job is to get up there and tease somebody. Well, the amateur was funny. It was something for the people to laugh at. Well, in the teasing by the strippers was there any problem of, you know, the men getting out 237 28 of hand, the men wanting to take the teasing seriously? No. Very seldom. There might have been a few times. I couldn't recall the exact incident, but there might have been a few times when a guy would try to reach up and grab one of the giris: If he did, Jack would throw his butt out, you know. Was there any problem with the strippers being engaged in prostitution? There was a few on their own, but Jack didn't know anything about it. If he had, he would probably have killed them. He didn't allow that. He “didn*t™allow7it? No. So he didn't allow the strippers to solicit the customers? No. The only thing he wanted them to do was sell the champagne, sell as much champagne as they could, get their fees and get out of there, you know. That~was 2t', yourknow, and if whe knew one of the girls had told some Saas follow her home or go across the street to the hotel, and Jack used to watch. He used to leave 238 29 go watch where the girls wate going. early and They knew where he was, you know. I mean, if any one of those girls ds to pull the wool over Jack, it > got anything w wasn't too hard to pull it over Jack’ Ss eyes because he was such a nice guy. So, you knew some of them were -- Q. Sure, I knew. Well, heck, they would give me $12 or put a few bucks in my pocket every $10 or you know, to keep me quiet, and now and then, I didn't say anything. You know, I needed it. Jack fal W(shaylrG et pay me that much. Were any of the involved with any of the policemen? went with a policeman. | No. Well, one girl Kathy Kay, but that was known to everybody, you know. What is the policeman's name she went with? Harry or something like that. Harry Olson? Yeah. Did he come in the club a lot? No, he didn't come in a lot, but he waited on 239 30 her downstairs most of the time to take her home, you know, if he wasn't on duty. I mean, you know, it was a thing where they was going to get married. Kathy was one of the cleanest -- Kathy and Tammy True was probably two of the straightest girls there that I..can recall. The rest of the girls did a little nipping every now and then, you know, but those two girls hit that door and got in their car and was gone to their man, you know. Do you remember Karen Bennett Carlin? I don't recall. That went by the name of Little Lynn? Little Lynn, yes. Was she involved in any of that kind of activity? Well, if she was that kind of girl -- Little Lynn wasn't there that long for me to get to know her that well. Were any of these women or any of the other employees involved in any other illegal activities)? Not was I senow.of. Were there any drugs around? No. There wasn't any. I never did smell the smoke of grass or anything. 240 a4 I have seen my share of dope addicts, I don't think any of them was on dope, you and know, heavy stuff. I could have told, I would have known if they had of been. Did you have any problem with pushers or pimps coming into the club? No pushers. Maybe a few pimps. But they didn"t try to solicit -- Oh, no. No. They were probably trying to see what they could pick up, you know. Did you know Joyce McDonald? Joyce McDonald? I can't say. There was tree or four thousand girls that went through that place when I worked there, the little time I did, and I probably couldn't call 15 of thems' names. Do you remember Jada? Yeah, I remember Jada. How can you forget Jada? Do you know how 738 went about hiring her? Well, all I remember is Jack got a contact out of New Orleans, and he probably -- being in the business he was in, he knew that she was one of the top-billed girls, and at the time he needed him a top-billed girl because the Colony Club 241 32 and the Theatre Lounge both had top-billed girls, and he was trying to bust through the rank, you know. He was trying to get up there with them, so he got Jada to come in. So Jack's club wasn't as successful like the Colony Club or the Theatre Lounge? I would say it wasn't. They probably did more than we did, but as far as I am concerned, I don't think Jack should have even been thinking about being in competition with them, because I ———- thought we were doing pretty good ourselves, you know. Puc 2.6 was something that worried him? | It was something that worried him, yeah. It was something that got him to go to New Orleans to try to hire this Jada? Yeah. He was always worrying about not letting the Weinsteins get away from him, maybe not trying to be bigger than they was, but he sure dtan* > want to lag behind, you know. Was his primary concern financial or was it like status -- . Status rank. Well, how was he doing financially in the fall Slt uLg6se 242 a5 about the same thing. We Well, we was doing a little better than we had maybe had -- doing Just like know, it's hard been the past year. doing because I make cash money to tell how I am | every day. you are just dealing in cash When a silent partner and and you have got a partner, on to him some of that cash you have to pass it's pretty hard to tell. his payments; was he paying Well, was he making the rent? most of the payments. We Yeah, we was making on the rent or anything. We was never behind didn't get the lights cut or ty you ever behind in the union payments? Were Maybe Jack might have got Not that I can recall. and didn't want to pay them and mad a few times it over there on time, but I think didn't send he always eventually paid them. might he have gotten mad with the union What about? see, when the girls, whenever they would You a squabble with Jack, they would take it have union, you understand, and then the up with the union would call up Jack. 243 34 You know, he got into squabbles with i) the girls sometimes. Some of the girls tried w to pull their G-string back and he didn't want ~ that, you know. wn He would get on them pretty heavy. L=) Did he have any problems with Jada in the fall MN ofei9632 Yeah. Jada was one of the ones that pulled the G-string back. Le) Do you remember the circumstances: around the particular occasion when a talent scout might have been in the audience? > If it was the same night that Jack and Jada got into it, I don't recall the talent agents being in the audience, but I know eventually we wound up in Judge Richburg's office, in Bill Decker's office with Judge Richburg under a peace bond. Le) How did that get settled, that dispute between gacanend Jackr°-<1t vdidn' €4go*to a trial or many thing? “aidere? > No. L2) How did it get settled? > I guess it got settled after Jada left town, you know, after she was gone. I don't remember if Jada kept working 244 3m or not. I don't remember whether she after that her contract out or not. I just don't finished recall. had a pretty expensive contract with Jack, She didn .t+.she2 ¥Yasx. Do you remember how much it was? was over «3.0.0. ale han ke I don't remember how Lit much it was. Was he hard pressed to meet that payment? | No. Did he mind paying her that much? Did he think worth that much? | she was Listen, if Jack could have gypped her down, he would have. I am pretty sure he probably asked her two or three times or more, you know. If he had thought he could have, you know, to take less money he would have gypped: her down. He was always teasing the girls that they made too much money. Not teasing, but serious. . Well, was there a time in the fall of 1963 that Jack got particularly upset with the large contrac of Jada because of the financial situation of his club, because the competition was doing so 245 36 much better than him? Do you remember that? I don't remember him getting -- repeat that again. What reason? That the club was in financial trouble because the competition was doing a lot better because of their use of amateur nights? No. They were drawing a lot more customers in and Jack's business was hurting. Do you remember that in the fall of 1963? No. We was using amateurs, too. But at some point the union put a stop to the use of amateur nights in the fall of 1963. Do you remember Jack being mad because the union made him stop and didn't make the Weinsteins stop? There could have been AswétHtBig aie that happened. What would an explanation be? I couldn't be sure. What would an explanation be as to why the union would make Jack stop but they wouldn't make the Weinsteins stop? Leadon. Knows 246 a1 if there was any special relationship Do you know and the union? Did he between the Weinsteins have some inside track? they used more girls than Jack. Well, make more money for the union? So tney would there might have been something veah. You know, but I just can't go back that like that happened far. how long that's.been? | Do you know just can’t, you know, it just don't I'm sorry. I come to me that way. who Jack's contact was in Do you remember New Orleans? ae —— Nottie dion tr. Do you remember a Harold Tannenbaum? he had a contact, but I don't know No. I know who it was. it one that ever came to visit the club? Was Could have. A lot of people came and No. visited, you know. When you are busy you don't ever get acchancestogs od ‘nc there any problems that Jack and the club Were were encountering in the fall of 1963 that was different from before? Were there any special 247 38 things that were bothering Jack Ruby or bothering the club? No. Were there any particular financial problems of the club then? Not that I know of. Do you know if he was in debt at all? No more than usual. Did Jack Ruby ever discuss the possibility of him moving to a new apartment shortly before the assassination? He could have. Do you remember him talking about the possibility of ann to the Turtle Creek area? No. Were there any times prior to the assassination that the club was doing particularly well, whether Jack Ruby seemed to be doing particularly well financially? Well, that's kind of hard to say. We was always doing a little bit better and a little bit better. Dallas was getting more conventions, and as Dallas got more conventions, we did a iit tile better. 248 oo Fridays and Saturdays was family on the single guys at night) but! we depended for Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, the convention Wednesday and Thursdays. were picking up. More people Things was coming in to Dallas. say, yes, I think that Jack I would than, I believe he was doing was doing better than he was in '62. I think he better in '63 better in '62 than he did in 464% done Beer didn't’go up that much during of time. I mean from the wholesaler. that period ever meet or did you ever know of Did you Martin Gimble? I don't recall that name. did you know of Mike Shore, a Did you meet or public relations man from Los. Angeles? No. you know or did you know of Mr. Frank Did Goldstein? (Shakes head.) know of Jack being involved with any Did you partners in the Carousel Club? Just his old buddy partner. Ralph Paul? 249 40 Yeah. You stated in your Warren Cominission testimony that Ralph Paul had invested money in the club but that Jack had not invested money in the club, correct, that Jack was the manager and not an owner? ch edd) Ciatercnien, that was I don't recall any of the stories, you know. 5 19 Did you know or do you know of Paul Dorffman? ad No. Or Allen Dorffman? No. OM. 1S (LLech five 14.2 No. Or David Elatkin? No. Or Gus Alex? No. Do you remember any times when Jack Ruby returned to Chicago? The only time Jack left when I worked for him, that I can recall, was when he went to New Orleans and when he went to New York. The time of the New Orleans trip was to hire Jada? I believe so, to go down and see her. What was the New York trip for? The New York trip was to go see a friend, and it might have been the time when he bought those 252 43 guns. Was that during the time when the Cuban thing was hot? I don't know whether Jack bought he just went up there to visit a the guns then or good friend of his. the nant name he went to visit? Do you remember No,” Wecond <=. him going to New York because of Do you remember disputes with the entertainment union? his No. recall that he didn't mention Do you specifically going to New York was to try to the reason he was clear up the union problems? recall him saying that was the reason No. I don't why he went. He might have went up there to talk to talk to them, but-I don't recall to the union, that that was the main reason. ever mention George Butler to you? Did Jack Ruby No. Of the police department? No. Did you know George Butler? he have been, a lieutenant or a No. What would 253 44 sergeant or what? Q. Yes. Lieutenant Butler. A. Lieutenant Butler. I think I remember a Lieutenan Butler, but I don't remember anything specific about him, you know. 0. Did Jack Ruby ever mention Santo¢ Trafficante to you? A. No. Q. Do you know him? A. No. : nalts 0. Do you know Louis’ McWillie or did Jack ever mention him? A. No. Q Do you know or did Jack mention Russell D. Matthew A. No, not that I remember. , 0. Do you know or did Jack mention Sammy Paxton, also known as Salvatore Amarano? A. No. ’ Q Did Jack Ruby know x Ap. Tippett, the police officer slain onithe day of the assassination? A. No, notvas i know of. Q. Did you know him? A. No. The officers stopped by there, and if Mr. Tippett ever patrolled downtown and had a reason to stop up there, he might have, but we 254 45 didn't know those officers by their first names because the same officers didn't always patrol down there at night. Do you remember any of the officers that patroled in the, area of the club? I don't remember them. Did Jack Ruby have any particular policemen who you could call were his juice or people he could turn to in the police department for help if he needed it? I would imagine if Jack would trust anybody ae would be Lieutenant Gilmore because he was so afraid of .him. He would trust him because he was afraid of him? Yeah, you know, because Jack always kept his nose clean in front of him. In other words, Lieutenant Gilmore, his business was vice. Right? Okay. That means if we are not pouring out champagne -- you know, pouring out champagne, that means you are cheating the customer. If we are not pouring out champagne or got prostitutes hanging around, then he has got his nose clean with Lieutenant Gilmore, and he made sure that that didn't go on. That wasn't it. 255 46 He knew the girls was pouring out the nN champagne, but they better not let Lieutenant w Gilmore catch them. ~ Was Jack Ruby under any particular pressure Nn besides what you have mentioned from Gilmore? Were there some violations that were going on -- an No. No. That was the only thing he was worrying N about, because he knew Gilmore would slap a @ lock on that door if he caught anything going on. oe] That man would arrest his mother, 10 i you know, and Jack knew it. How did Alice Alexander bass about Lieutenant Gilmore? She mentioned in one of the reports that you had to watch out for Lieutenant Gilmore because he would arrest his mother if he had to. How did she know that? > Well, that was just a figure of speech. Yea, but it is one that she eroter also. Well, we all said that, you know. How did you know? Did he ever arrest anybody in the Carousel? You know, he -- no, he never arrested anybody in the Carousel, but you would read about it in the paper that Gilmore was going to bust somebody 256 47 down, you know, before the night was over, Friday and Saturday night. Did you know any of the FBI agents that worked in Dallas? No. You didn't know any of them? The only FBI agent that I ever met was that guy, that took that thing from me, and if I recall, he wasn't -- well, he wasn't very nice, and he ran through it so fast. He ran over questions, you know. He had me nervous. I remember that. Over in the old post office building where the old courthouse used to be. I never will forget that. Did Jack Ruby take any guns to New York on that visit you were talking about? Now, that's what I don't know. I don't know if Jack bought those guns, bought a gun up there. Let's see. No. ‘Jack had -- I was just thinking about it. He didn't take any guns. No, he didn't take any guns. Did he bring any back with him? No, I don't think he -- Jack had that pistol before he went to New York. 257 48 Now, when he bought the guns -- I remember Jack buying guns. He said he bought these guns. He bought three guns. Were they Cobras? I don't know what they was. One of them was the one, I imagine, that he shot Oswald with. Now, he bought Eva a gun. He bought his friend one that was in Cuba. I don't know how he got it over there. Were you working for him at the time he bought the gun to send to the friend in Cuba? That I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember if it was right after that that I started working for him, but I know there was Stili tak about the Cuban deal. pia Jack ever mention his trip to Cuba? No. I don't even remember him going to Cuba. I don't think he went to Cuba. He didn't go to Cuba, at least during the time you were with him? No, at least during the time I remember. Did he ever mention having gone before you came to work for him? No. | Did you ever see Jack Ruby with any gun other than 258 49 you mentioned in the Warren Commission the one Report being in the money bag? That was it. anything unusual about that gun? Was No. whether or not it had a shroud Do you remember over the hammer? No, “don ‘64 or not you could even see the Do you know whether hammer of the gun? khak gun is, I think it had All I remember about on it, but that gun was always a brown handle little sack, a money sack. Okay. in a we had two money sacks. Jack Now, in his money sack most of the would put the gun leaving there at niahte pelt ne time, if he was in the daytime he wouldn't put just left there if he was just going over to it in there, like take it with him. He would the bank he wouldn't in the money sack in the desk leave it there drawer. that day that, that. hi coe) == Now, I have told everybody this. I the day, and day that the, that President Kennedy recall the Jack was crying, and he told me to was killed. 259 50 get everything ready and close up, that he was going to be closed, to call all of the girls and tell them that we was going to be closed that night, the next night, and he would call them ‘back Monday to let them know what was going on. Now,:. I took some money with me. I don't know whether I told the Warren Commission about this. I had some money with me. Now, I said, "Jack, which one of these sacks do you want the -- " I didn't know Jack was going to tell me to take the money. I said, "Which sack do you want me to put the money?" He, .saild>y’ "it “don-tP cares Pud “Se in either one of them." Okay, and I recall, if I am recalling correctly, he said -- when he got ready to go the sack that he picked up had the gun in it, but they was both laying up there on the bar, but he didn't know which one of the sacks the gun was in, but I didn't want the sack with the gun in it anyway. But he didn't know which one of those sacks the gun was in because I was working behind the bar and he was there on the telephone crying 24 talking to his brother. 635 260 51 When he got ready to go, he just picke up one of the sacks. Maybe he felt it in there. even think he felt it, because the man I don't was broke up, you know. He was broke up. What we was going to do was split the Money up because I was going to pay some bills, you know. Were you going to go to the bank? I was going to go get some checks. I had receipts and everything. The same thing I was going to do that day, that afternoon, we was going to wait and do it Monday. So what did he take a bag of money for? Well, he took just the regular receipts from the night, before. You didn't normally take those to the bank? He took the regular. receipts -from-the night before. It didn't make any difference. You see, the envelope was laying up there with the bills ind it.im. Okay, The. only thing that was in the sack -—4 no. The receipts and all and the bills was in the brown envelope. Okay. There was money and a gun in one sack and there was money and a gun in the other sack, 261 52 and there was a Slip in each sack Saying how much money it was. That was it. 1 Ao on check your record there you might find there was a Slip in that sack. Now, if Jack had any other papers or anything, you see, he put them.in there later. But you had particular bills yVEAVeLe Wirene wi0 pay with some of the money? Yes. I had particular bills I was going to pay. Were the bills in the sack, or were the bills separate? The bills were separate. How did you know that you would have enough money in the sack bette aihy the bills? There was enough money in the sack. There was enough money. I knew that. So what happened was I left my sack down there. I was, you know -- but at first I was going to take it home. I was, you know, all confused. I said, well, I should take the money home with me, because I had carried money home with me before. But when I was getting ready to close up and getting everything ready to’ go," > @ecided I was going to leave the money down there. 262 S When I heard that Jack shot Oswald, that's when I went down there and got thessrest of the money and took care of the dogs, because I didn't want anybody to find that money in there, I knew that was what Jack would want me because to do. Where was Sheba after Oswald was shot? Phatts another. thing tha ti«k don't -- where Now, was Sheba after Oswald was shot? Now, I am told that Sheba was in the SE per Now, I remember going and getting and I don't remember whether I went to Sheba, the police station and got Sheba or whether I to the Carousel and got Sheba, but I remember went going and getting Sheba. Now, I could have went to the police station. If I did, I would have to get somebody to carry me, and I don't remember getting anybody to carry me to pick up Sheba, because I didn" t have a car. But you ended up with Sheba? Yes. I ended up with Sheba. Because we are running short of time, let me ask you a few more questions. 263 54 Did Jack Pa Gy ever mention Gordon McLendon to you? No. Did you know Gordon McLendon? Yes. Gordon McLendon radio station. He might hav mentioned Gordon McLendon at times. Some of the disc jockeys came down there. Russ Knight and some of the other guys came down just to watch the strip shows sometimes. Jack was always trying to corner them to ‘get him a spot, you know, get something free. Did Jack Ruby ever mention General Walker to you, Edwin Walker? Yeah, he mentioned something about that, you know, putting the signs in the yard over there. He went over there and made some pictures of that sign, I think, not too long before the assassination. Do you remember him ever knowing General Walker personally? No. Did you ever meet Lawrence Meyers who was a friend of Jack Ruby? No. Who came from Chicago on business? 264 pe No. Did Jack ever mention him? I could have met him. I have forgot the name. A sporting goods salesman who brought Jack Ruby some barbells? Could have. te you ever meet Jean Aase, A-a-S-e, or Jean West who was a friend of Lawrence Meyers and met Jack Ruby? Not that I know-of. When you visited Jack Ruby in jail, did you ever ask him why he shot Oswald? No. < don" tithink =? did, Did you ever ask him prior to the time he died whether he shot Oswald? I didn't see him but one time and that was in Vata My main concern was asking Jack what should I do with the rest of that money that I had. Did Jack volunteer anything about why he shot Oswald? No. Did he mention anything about President Kennedy? NOY nesd2an Ce. Not that--la KknOwnoi. T thinker 265 56 only had about five minutes with Jack, and I think he said something about, "I got us in a mess," or something like that, you know. Were you alone with him at the time? There was a policeman standing about five or six feet away. Were you surprised when he shot Oswald? Yeah, I was surprised. Did Jack Ruby ever do a violent act that you have seen? I have seen him go into a rage. Have you ever seen him hit anyone? Yeah, I have seen him grab somebody. Not really just decked them, but I have seen him grab them and throw them out of there. You never saw him beat anyone up?’ No. There have been a lot of accounts of reports of people who worked in the Carousel, and people who knew Jack Ruby, who say it was commonplace that he would beat up people who were drunk or rowdy or whatever. Anybody that was naughty or messing with the girls, I mean Jack would -- I have never seen him actually beat anybody, but I have seen him grab B3=105 0 ~ 79 . 18 266 af guys and just literally throw them out. You might call that beating up a know. I am sure if a guy got loose and guy, you Jack he would fly back on him, you know. hit One time there was a scuffle out in I never did get a chance to see it. the hallway. he decked the guy, but I didn't see it. Jack said Ruby ever mention Myra Lansky to you? Did Jack No. Do you know Myra Lansky? No. he ever mention Jake Lansky, or do you know Did Jake Lansky? Now, if -- look here. If we was sitting No. down here in the summer of '74 and you asked some of those names I might remember some os me them, you know. I have got customers that I have fed at one restaurant and didn't see them for three four years in another and, you know, their or names just pass me by, you know. Do you remember Candy Barr? I remember she used to work there. Yeah, I remember her. Do you remember what kind of a relationship Jack 267 58 Ruby had with her? He didn't have any. He just tried to get her back after she got out of prison. He tried to get her to perform? He tried to get her to perform for him. But she never did? He called her a couple of times, carried her a couple of dogs down there, as I recall. Did Jack have a normal relationship with women? Zenon VtoKnow. L vGan“t -say Sheen I heard a couple of the girls say that Jack was too quick, if you know what I mean, but - Do you mean sexually? Yeah, but that's all I ever heard, you know. I know he tried to get the girls to go with him, you know. You got the impression that he made love to some of the girls at the club? | Ohpeisuces And they weren't real satisfied with his performance? Yes. That was it. Did you get the impression as to whether or not they told him they were not satisfied with him? No, but they would sit around and snicker about pb ety 268 59 you know. ever discuss whether or not he might be Did you gay? No. Never that allegation? Never that allegation. That never even came No. up in any conversation. The girls really liked Jack. They really did. your Warren Commission testimony you said that In he fired you all of the time. Yeah. It was just his way, when he got mad he would you and that would be it and you would come fire back to work? Yeah. Sometimes I didn't even leave. Sometimes he would leave before I could go get my stuff. I would be back getting my stuff and he would leave, and he knew I wasn't going to leave, you know, the place there after he was gone. You also mentioned that he had a lot of spats with Eva Grant, his sister. Did you ever see some of that? Yeah. It was verbal on the phone. He would slam 269 60 the phone down, you know. Did she ever loan him money or try to help him out financially? She didn't have any money. She was running the Vegas Club. Who did he turn to for money? You see, Jack, if anybody gave him money, he probably would have got it from Raiphis pethait's the only place I know of him ever getting any money. Ralph Paul? Yeah. Lo syour knowledge, was there ever any gambling in the Carousel Club? No. Was there ever any gambling in any of the dcwntown clubs? Not that Dbaknow id £x The only gambling I ever heard of was in the hotel rooms. In private hotel rooms? If you are talking about big games, yeah. They had some big games in some of the hotel rooms? Yeah. Some of the guys around town. You know, 270 61 gambling going on in those days there was a lot of open or was it kind of a closed Was it pretty Gusty? way I would know about it would No. The only of -- one of the black dudes might be like some serve drinks there and would say, be going to "Wwe have got a game," you know. any numbers going on at the time? Were there No. I never seen any numbers. you have known of it? You were talking: Would maybe the strippers could pull the before that over Jack's eyes, but you would probably wool find out about things. Yeah. Do you know if there were any noOLI Cy. == No policies, no numbers. Policy "Veft No. Dallas long years ago. I mean, the policg had that all up. There wasn't any racketeering going covered Dallas. The only thing that was going on on in was a little gambling and a little weed here it wasn't even that much heavy stuff smoking. in town. Did Jack ever gamble? Notiea’s ‘Lirkrniow fate 271 62 You have said in one of your interviews with one of our staff members that he did gamble. (Shakes head.) Did he ever play dice or cards or whatever for money? No. I mean -- well, Jack and his roommate -- what is his name -- they might have had a few poker games or something, but nothing big. That's not gambling. Just passing the time away. Do you know of your personal knowledge whether or not Jack Ruby ever had a card game for money in his apartment? I don't know for sure. Do you think he did? I imagine he did. I would be safe to say that, yeah, they had a few poker games sometimes. Who would have attended, which of Jack's friends? Probably just the guys in the apartment there. They would lay out around the swimming pool together. Who else besides Jack and his roommate was it? That's allwaoaAThat’s all I could say, you know. You don't know who the people in the apartment were? No. I don't know. I just seen them all laying 272 63 around the pool together when I went over out there at times, you know. have seen we have run over a EpGGle bis Well, I on our “time. Yeah, and I am going to have to go. wanted to give you the opportunity, if there I is anything you want to add or say to put your in context, please feel free to dort testimony now. No. The only thing I want to say is’Ivam sorry I couldn't remember, recollect more than I that can, because I would state very seriously that you probably would have had more information in your Warren Report from me if the interview had been conducted the way this one was, you know, but I am sure they didn't have all of the names and didn't have all of the information that they have now on different things, so consequently -- in other words,.it seems like the guy that took the interview didn't want to talk to me because I am black, and he just rushed through whatever he was going to ask me, you know. In the event that we need to ask you some more questions, would you be available if we can work out a mutually convenient time? sure. MR. PURDY: All right. Thank you very much. THE WITNESS: You are welcome. (Whereupon, at 4:10 p.m., the hearing in the above-entitled matter was closed.) 273 65 Cor By Rey L pF. LyaCt Ag Ty I, GARLIN ATTAWAY, a notary public in and for Harris County, Texas, being the notary public before whom the aforegoing sworn testimony of JOSEPH CAMPISI was taken, do herebyicertify,,that, the Witness was first duly sworn BY Ne to Cell tne tru. the whole truth, and nothing put, the truth, and#ehave the above and foregoing is a true and correct transcript of said testimony. GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE on this ther¥@& day of May, 1978. gett 20 adele GARLIN ATTAWAY 7 Notary Public in and for Harris County, Texas 274 ii. Robert Bernard Baker | Biographical Summary in New (887) Robert Bernard Baker was born on August 16, 1911, Brookl yn, York City, the son of Sarah Baker, 1947 Ocean Avenue , had one brother , Herman , who resided in New York City, N.Y. Baker Baker and a sister, Rose, who lived with their mother in Brooklyn. d three times. His first wife was Ann Baker; her had been marrie They address in 1978 was unknown. Mollie Baker was his second wife. s, had a daughter Barbara, living with her mother in Los Angele Calif. Baker was then married to Caroline Baker. (1097 ) (888) Baker was 6 feet, obese at 320 pounds, with black hair, brown eyes, and large, rectangular protruding ears.(1098) During Worldd rejecte War II, he had attempted to enlist in the U.S. Army, but was due to obesity. num- (889) Baker had the following identification numbers: FBI In- — ber—910142; Social Securi ty—115 -03-78 50 ; Federa l Correc tional stitution—A4629SS. (1099) Treatment by the Warren Commission | (890) Baker had been under prior investigation by the FBI and | was conside red a hoodlu m with organiz ed crime and Teamste rs con- | nections. The FBI and the Warren Commission failed to investigate | any possible connection between Baker’s associates and associates sion of Ruby. The only mention of Baker by the Warren Commis was in reference to a Ruby call to Baker on November 11, 1963. When the FBI interviewed Baker, they were aware of the phone calls Ruby had made to Mike Shore and Irwin Weiner, but they failed to ques- tion Baker regarding these individuals. The Committee’s Investigation Legal Activities—Baker’s ostensible vocation and apparent | (891) principal source of legitimate income since 1950 had been derived || from the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Union. In 1950, Baker had been elected president of Local 730 in Washington, D.C.(1100) He resigned from Local 730 in 1952 and became the | organizer for the Central Conference of Teamsters out of St. Louis. In addition, he had organized Teamsters locals in Chicago, Ill., De- } troit, Mich., and Omaha, Nebr. (1101) (892) Prior to his employment with the Teamsters, Baker worked in New York City, Hollywood, Fla., and Washington, D.C. Until } 1946, he had worked in New York City on the waterfront.(7102) In} 1946. he had moved to Hollywood, Fla.. and worked as a doorman and bouncer for the Colonial Inn. (The Colonial Inn was owned and operated by Mert Wortheimer and Jake Lansky. Jake Lansky is the brother of Meyer Lansky. a reputed syndicate ficure in Miami. (1/03 | | (893) Baker moved to Washington in 1946, where he drove a truck for S. A. Frese Co. and worked in the warehouse for the District Grocery Store. (1704) | (894) Harold Gibbons, Teamsters official in St. Louis and later} James R. Hofta’s No. 2 man, persuaded Baker to move to St. Louis, | a move he made on November 6, 1952.(1105) He was Gibbons’ body- guard and was involved with the cab strike.(1106) From St. Louis, } 275 Baker went to Detroit in October 1953 to work for Hoffa. (1107) Baker “took care of a shyster lawyer” for Hoffa. (1108) (895) Lllegal Activities and Association With, Organized Crime.— During his testimony before the Senate Select Committee on Im- es Activities in the Labor or Management Fields, Baker admitted nowing Johnny “Cockeyed” Dunne, who, during the 1940’s, was the vice president and business manager of Local 31510, Terminal Check- ers and Platform Men, with a national charter from the American Federation of Labor. It occupied offices in the same building as the International Longshoremen’s Association. Another associate of Baker’s was Andrew “Squint” Sheridan, who was an associate of Dunne’s, and organizer of a brother local of the union on the Hoboken waterfront. Duane had been a strong-arm man for Dutch Schultz dur- ing Prohibition days. Baker was also associated with Danny Gentile, known as Danny Brooks, a former prizefighter who, during the 1940’s, was a policy collector for policy slips on the waterfront docks under the control of Dunne and his gang. (1109) (896) During 1947, Dunne and Sheridan were arrested for the mur- der of Anthony Hintz, hiring boss on one of the West Side piers in Man- hattan.(//10) Hintz had refused to knuckle under to the desires of Dunne to get control of Hintz’ Pier 51. It was the only pier that the Dunne-McGrath mob did not control in the entire Greenwich Village section of the West Side, and at that time the piers had just opened up after being under the control of the Navy Department during the war.(1/1/) (897) Shortly after Hintz’ murder, Dunne was picked up in his union rooms and charged with the shooting; Sheridan had disap- peared. He was found a week later in Hollywood, Fla.(1112) While Sheridan was being held in the Federal detention penitentiary, he was visited by Barney Baker.(1113) After visiting Sheridan, Baker went to Joe Adonis to get help for Sheridan in fighting extradi- tion. (7114) (898) When Baker went to see Sheridan, he told the guard that Danny Gentile, who was missing, was at Pompano Lakes. After his visit, Baker fled to Las Vegas to hide out until he was able to get back to Florida.(1175) He stayed at the Flamingo Hotel, which was con- trolled by Bugsy Siegal, a west coast hoodlum. (1776) (899) In 1934, Baker was convicted and sentenced to an indefinite term in the City Penitentiary in New York for setting off stench bombs in movie theaters. He served 1 year and was paroled but was sent back for setting off another stench bomb. He was paroled in 1935. On March 15, 1936, while on parole, he was shot and wounded while getting into an automobile on 34th Street in Manhattan. Baker was with Johnny O’Rourke, the president of Local 282 of the Teams- ters, Farmer Sullivan, a waterfront mobster, and Joe Butler, another waterfront mob:ter.(7777) O’Rourke was also wounded, Butler killed. Sullivan was unhurt, but his body was discovered a year or so later out in the Flats in New Jersey.(11//8) It was never established who opened fire on these men, but 2 days later police raided a house of prostitution on West 90th Street, New York City. The raid was ini- tiated by a tip believed to have come from the Dunne mob, of which ‘Baker was a member. (1119) 276 an organization (900) Baker was a collector and strong-arm man for Varick Enter- that Dunne and the union had set up ealled collection agency prises.(1/20) Varick Enterprises was a strong-arm at truck termi- the piers and for the so-called public loading racket on were made by the nals. They would discou nt the loadin g collec tions that ts due. (1127) Through public loaders on the piers and collect the amoun Eddie McGra th was also associ ated with Varick Enterprises, Baker and Connie Noonan. (1122) 1952, he became (901) When Baker moved to St, Louis in November Company and Joe Costel lo, operat or of the Ace Cab associated with with John Vi- known hoodlum.(1123) Baker also becam e associ ated before the Senate Select Commi ttee as one of the three tale, identified or four heads of the syndicate in St. Louis. (1124) with a gun in (902) In April 1953, Baker was arrested in St. Louis the gun from a his possession. He testified in 1958 that he had bough t cab driver. (1125) The arrest record notes: When questioned at this office, Baker stated that a few he weeks ago while en route to the city from Washington, lo- purcha sed the aforem ention ed revolve r from a swap shop cated on the outskirts of Indianapolis, Indiana. (1126) The arrest record further says: When asked as to why he was carrying a gun, Baker stated that he was told by his bosses, Flynn and Gibbons, that the circuit attorney, Edward Doud, had given his approval for the carrying of the gun by him and other business agents of the Teamsters’ Union. (1127) (903) Asa result of testimony given before the Senate Select Com- 186, mittee, Baker was tried and convicted for violations of section title 129, United States Code (Labor -Manag ement Relatio ns Act Baker had been paid substant ial sums of money for of 1947).(1128) his assistance in settling certain labor difficult ies encount ered by Ex- hibitors Service Co., Inc., and Esco Motor Co., McKees Rocks, testi- Pa.(1129) George F. Callahan, president of the two companies, fied that when his compani es were experie ncing labor difficult ies with con- Teamsters Locals 57 and 58, Edward Weinheimer, an employee, tacted “Barney” Baker to obtain his assistan ce in settling the dis- pute.(7130) Callahan sent money to Weinheimer, who allegedly paid Baker. Callahan discussed the matter with Hoffa at Detroit and Wash- ington, D.C. Callahan paid Baker directly, and ultimately Callahan reached an agreement in the union difficulty. (1137) (904) Baker was paroled from Sandstone Penitentiary on June 7, 1963. He moved to Chicago and became employed as field representa- tive for the Chicago Loop Auto Refinishing Co. at 3216 South Shields, Chicago. The company was owned by Earl Scheib. (905) Relationship with Ruby.—During an FBI interview on Jan- uary 6, 1964, Baker stated that his only contact with Jack Ruby was a telephone call he received from him on November 11, 1963. Baker told FBI agents John R. Bassett and William F. Hood that on Novem- ber 11, 1963, his wife ealled him at his office and told him that he had just received a long-distance telephone call from Dallas, Tex. It was 277 requested that he return the call and ask for “Lou. same day from his office telephone. He said that ” Baker did so the when he got through to the Dallas number, he told the person who answe Barney Baker and was returning a call to someo red that he was ne at that number. Baker stated that the person on the other end of the line me. My name is [Baker could not recall the first name] said, “That’s person then told Baker, “You don’t know me but we Ruby.” This have mutual friends.” Baker said he asked who the mutual friends were, sumply said, “We got friends but I don’t want to tell over thebut Ruby phone According to Baker, Ruby then related that he was in the burle .” and strip show business in Dallas and that competitors were “atte sque mpt- ing to knock me out” and was contacting Baker in an attempt to obtain assistance in resolving the problem he was having with the Ameri can Guild of Variety Artists. Ruby suggested that “mutual friends” had advised him that Baker was familiar with unions and handling matter s such as this and requested that Baker contact the AGVA people and “straighten them out.” (1132) (906) Baker told Ruby that part of the provisions of his 5-year probation was that he could not engage in any labor-management relations activities during the probation period. He declined Ruby’s request. (7133) (907) Deposition taken by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. | 278 ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY TUESDAY, MAY 23, 1978 U.S. House of Representatives, : John F. Kennedy Subcommittee of | the Select Committee on | Assassinations, Chicago, illinois. i | Deposition of BAKER : ROBERT BARNEY by staff counsel for the le aOR called for examination in Room 1669, 219 South Dearborn, ! pursuant to notice, | at eight o'clock a.m., in the : Chicago, Illinois, beginning of the assassinations of i matter concerning investigation Attorney General Robert Kennedy, | President John F. Kennedy, al., wnen were present on behalf of | Lee Harvey Oswald, et parties: | the respective | For the subcommittee: JOHN W. HORNBECK, ESQ., Senior staff counsel For the Deponent: ROBERT BARNZY BAKER (Appeared without representation by counsel.) 279 ROBERT BARNEY BAKER, being first duly swom, deposeth and saith: | | DIRECT EXAMINATION || BY MR. HORNBECK: | Q. Would you state your name, full name, spelling your | | | last for the record, please? A. Robert Barney Baker, B-a-k-e-r, Q. Mr. Baker, our purpose this aftemoon is to take | your deposition here in Chicago. Prior to the giving of your | name for the purposes of this deposition, you were sworn by | the United States Magistrate, is that correct? | A. Correct. | Q. And also you were given a aaie the rules of the | Select Committee, the resolution establishing that committee, | is that right? : A. I was, that is correct. Q. Do you have any questions with regard to either the taking of your testimony under oath here today or the rules -Which have been furnished to you prior to the taking of this deposition? A. None whatsoever. Q. All right. I'm going to outline some of the rules | that pertain to the taking of this deposition, and if you have any question after I've outlined the particular rules per- taining to the deposition, please identify those question 280 areas and we'll attempt to resolve them. | of all, you, of course, are entitled to nave First the presence and assistance of counsel during any portion of : | which we are taking today. You understand | the deposition right? | that particular | At Eeao, Q. You do not have counsel here today. Is that a mat ter of your own choosing? A. That's right. Q. A deposition is a voluntary statement, and by your presence here today I assume that you are appearing volun~ tarily to have your testimony taken under oath, is that true? A. That's correct. Q. If there are any questions that you feel the answer to those questions would tend to incriminate you, you may, of course, refuse to answer that question under the Fifth Amendment privilege of self-incrimination. You unde rstand that? A. I understand. ip Our questioning will primarily deal with the period of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, 1963. It will cover some years prior to that time, and perhaps a few years subsequent to that time also. You understand that? A. I understand. 281 Q, Let me begin by simply getting some identifying nformation from you, Mr. Baker, What is your present home ddress, sir? A. 5400 North Sheridan Road, Chicago, Illinois. Q And your present business or occupation, sir? A. 38550 West Brynmawr, which is an insurance company. Q Mr. Baker, prior to November 1963, what was your ome residence? A. Sandstone, Minnesota, Correctional Institute. Q. And when did you leave that institution, sir? A. 1963. I don't remember exactly the months. Could 2 maybe in June, as The records that I am in possession of indicate June release date from that.institution. Does that Square ith your memory? A. That's probably when it was, Q. Following the release from Sandstone, where did uu go and what was your business or occupation? A. I had no business or occupation. I had no job at 1. I just resided in 5900 Sheridan Road in a one-room ixtment, one-room efficiency, Q. At some point following your release I believe you gan working for the Chicago Loadp Auto Refinishing Company, . that correct? A. Correct, yes, sir. m-105 0 ~ 79 ~ 19 282 0. Can you tell us approximately when it was you be- gan working for that particular company? A. Could have been maybe--I'm vague on that--could be six or seven months after. Q. We're just asking for your best memory. A. Maybe about six months after release. Q. So do you think that assumption of employment was at the end of 1963, beginning of 1964? A. To the best of my recollection, I believe it could be, 0. You think sometime within approximately-- A. (Interrupting) '63, '64. Q. «That company was owned by Mr. Rarl Schieb, is that correct 7 A. That's correct. Q. Did you Renee Mr. Schieb personally? A. I'd met him prior to my going away, when I was wit the unions, Q. And did you have some relationship with Mr. Schieb prior to your incarceration? A. No, just got along with him real nice. Q: Were there any business associations with Mr. Schieb prior? A. No, I had none. The organization that I worked f had business with him, but I did not, 283 Q). The union had? A. Yes. Iwas not involved in that. Q. And prior to your going to Sandstone, you were Work ing for the Intemational Teamsters, is that correct? A. That's correct, Q. Were you working out of Chicago prior to the Sand- ‘tone? A. Yes, Iwas an organizer in Chicago, aP Was it due to your Chicago organizing you met Mr, Bhieb2 A. Oh, while I was Organizing, yes, I met Mr, Schieb, ut wasn't organizational work direct to his company then, 9. Mr. Scbieb's companies had no Teaneree affilication, is employees? A. At that time? me. Yes, six. A. No. I think they were Organized people, am they 2re, at that time, I believe, were going in for contract >gOtiations, Q). Did they eventually become Teamster employees? A Yes, they did, as And can you tell us approximately when it was? A. No, I had nothing to do with that particular ‘ganization, and it was a certain local union in Chicago lat has the jurisdiction, and that local was 743 Local. 284 But I had nothing to do with that particular event at all, organizing or contract, nothing at all. a: What was your job then working for Chicago Loop Auto Refinishing? A. Iwas taken on there with the understanding that it could be a temporary basis, and they were in a position of going into masking tape and industrial paint sales, and I more or less was interested in distributing same to com- panies that I had* coO*sSoOLicity to yo into, to see what I coul do with the tape, and with this industrial type paint. Q. Did you have a sales territory at this time? A. No, no particular area which to go to, but Chicago was the base, Q). Did you speak personally with Mr. Schieb in order to obtain this job? A. I spoke with him on the phone, and then he told me to send a letter to him stating what I was looking for, et cetera, et cetera. 2 i DER. jag there any attempt by you to regain your past employment, that is, with the Teamsters when you were released? A. Yes, Q. And what was the problem with resuming that job? A. Well, they were not sure whether or not I was allowed to go right back to work in labor unions or if I was 285 in the position of being a five-year limitation more or less. Ye have to more or less wait five years before you can go dack to labor unions. 9. Was the five years a statutory requirement? A. Under Taft-Hartley, but later on, after doing quite a bit of research on it, I was eligible, but it was a year, year and a half when I did find that out. Q. After that year and a half, did you then retum to the Teamsters at any time? | A. No. Q. Whom did you talk with from the Teamsters Union , after your release from Sandstone to see if you could regain | your employment? | As Jimmy Hoffa, LJ Did you talk with him personally? A. Oh, Sure’ 9. What was your relationship with Mr. Hoffa at this time? A. I was employed by Mr. Hoffa under Central States, Iwas more or less appointed chairman of the Central States Chauffeurs Division, Teamsters Central States Chauffeurs Di- vision, Q. You are speaking of prior to Sandstone? A. Oh, yes. 286 9. All right. I'm discussing the relationship after from Sandstone you spoke with Mr. Hoffa as to your release or not you could regain your past employment, is that whether correct? Agererhae*s*correct. Q. What was your relationship with him? Was it as amiable as it was prior to your entering Sandstone? A. Very amiable, good friends. Q. nd what was Mr. Hoffa's conversation with you with regard to you regaining employment? A. He'd have to look into the situation mare, more or less find out whether I am eligible to take a position with the Teamsters again, labor, or not be able to, and to have td wait that period of time. te And then you did return to the Teamsters Union? A No.. Q. You never did? A Never did. 0 All right. Was there any particular reason that if after this year and a half when you discovered that you were eligible to return you were not able to regain your position? A. Well, Mr. Hoffa had to go into the penitentiary, and I was personally working for him in appointments and 287 organizing and assignments and being not available, I had no one else to go to. Q), So your relationship to the Teamsters Union pri- marily was based upon a personal relationship with Mr. Hoffa, is that a fair statement? A. _ Iwas president of the local union, Washington, ae * pl was elected by the membership. I left that union to go to the Midwest to ate for, organizational work for, Mr. Hoffa. My relationship with the Teamsters was na through Mr. Hoffa; I was Sasa prior, thirty some years. Q. I understand that. | A. I furtheredmy relationship with the Teamsters and Mr. Hoffa after I met him at several conventions. Q. How long did you stay with companies owned by Mr. Schieb? 3 - A. I believe it was an eight-month period in which he --then letters were sent out to all regional directors on all these other jobs, other than managers of the--the people that worked in these garages painting cars, they naturally retained them, but any regional directors that he had or any Sales that he had outside of that was terminated, Around eight months, I believe, it lasted. Q. Was there a business reason for this termination? A. Yes, The masking tape factory closed. They went under, And the so-called paint that we were selling to 288 didn't go cver too well. Good enough for the cars, industry I guess, but not for the other industries. Q. Was that your last relationship in a business sense with Mr. Schieb? A. Yes, that's all we had to do with each other. Q. Did you ever meet an individual who also was associated with Mr. Schieb by the name of Jim Braden, B-r- a-d-e-n, sometimes used the name Eugene Hale Brading, B-r- a-d-i-n-g, from Los Angeles? A. Never. I've never heard the name until just now, no, Q. Did you have any social contact with Mr. Schieb after this eight-month period? A. No, I never had any social contact with the gen- tleman outside of his conversations. Oi Did you wish to add something to that answer? A. No, I had nothing. Q. Approximately, how many times did you speak with Mr. Schieb, let's say, prior to entering Sandstone and then subsequent to entering ‘Sandstone? A. Prior to entering Sandstone, I never had day thine to do with Mr. Schieb, It is when I got out of Sandstone 1 when I got to know him. AF I misunderstood, then, your previous testimony. thought you had said that you originally met Mr. Schieb 289 , ‘hile you were still organizing with the Teamsters, which ould have been prior to Sandstone? A. When I was out on--wait now, I've got to get this yself. Oh, I did, ict when I went away, everything was all ver with, then, When I got out of Sandstone, I renewed my : Cquaintanceship by asking for a job. Prior to that was | efore, youtre right. You're) right. | Q. My question would be, approximately how many per- onal conversations did you have with Mr. Schieb before you atered Sandstone? A Maybe one or two at the most. I picked him up at ne airport one time, drove him--it was in the winter, winter- ; * A ‘ ; ime, and I drove him down to a certain motel, which I don't | ven remember where he had meetings, so forth, so on, | Q). Was this in Chicago? | A. That was the conversation, yes, That was hello, | Ow are you, my name, et ceters, but A business, Q. And the other one or two social conversations you ould have had with him-- A. (Interrupting) I don't remember any other outside £ maybe--I don't know if I took him back to the airport or f he went back some other way, but one time I know dacthivaly. can remember picking him up. | 0. In any of these meetings in which you picked him up C the airport, did Mr. Schieb go to meet Mr. Hoffa? 290 A. I don't know who he met. I believe he had a meet~ involved and there might have been a ine with the Teamsters might have been Hoffa there at the time. committee, roughly, the year in- which this Os Could you pinpoint, with Mr. Schieb and perhaps members of the particular meeting committee? A. Prior to ‘él. Q. Before '61? A. Prior, or could be the start of '61, but I believe Seti. CO 161, '60. That's to the best of my recollec- ite I'm trying to pinpoint, but I just don't remember tion. SS ete recall whether or not Mr. Schieb ever re- qd. Do you any loans from the Teamsters Pension Fund prior to ceived A. If he did, I wasn't that close to that situation where I would know that, no. I don't know that, no. After your release from Sandstone, in addition to Q. telephone conversation in which you requested a job this Mr. Schieb, did you have any other conversations with from him? A. No. Q. Did you and Mr. Schieb ever discuss Mr. Schieb 's political views? A. No; no. 291 Q. Were you aware of Mr. Schieb's political views, Bhatotss whether or not he was a very conservative political man, whether he was a very Libers | political man? A. Nog -F didn?t Q. In November of 1963 you received a phone call from Jack ele is tes ees sir? A. No. There was a phone call from Jack Ruby. I was not Hines so I couldn't have received it. My wife received the call and.a message to call back this number, to ask for Jack Ruby. I came home--do you want me to-- QO; Well, why don't we proceed on a question and answer basis. | AL Fine. Q. Were you working for Mr. Schieb in November of '63 to the best of your memory? A. I don't know, I think it was--I don't know exactly, I know it was an eight-month period that I--I don't remember exactly. Q. All right. Let's retum to the telephone conver- Sation that you've alluded to, The record reflects that there was a long distance telephone call from Dallas to a qumber PA 8-4031. Was that your home phone in November of 1963? A. I lived at 5900 and I don't remember that number as being my home number, truthfully, but it must be, 292 Q. All right. You indicated that your wife called you and said that you had a message or spoke to you person- ally? A. I came home. She told me that I had a message. 0. What was the message, to the best of your memory? AS To call Mr. Jack Ruby. at a number given in Dallas, Texas. Q. In 1964, on the 3rd of January, there was an FBI interview of yourself? A. Right. Q. ¢ And it indicates that you stated to them that your ‘wife had told you to retum the call and ask for Lou. Does that square with your memory? | A. Not Lou, Jack Ruby. That's a wrong statement. I don't know where you got that, but it is not correct. Q. Well-- A. There's no Lou involved in that. Q. All right. You remember, of course, that you were interviewed by the FBI in January 1964? As Yes, definitely. ap I may use the FBI statement at some point to see whether or not, one, you made that particular statement to the FBI or, two, if you recall making that particular state- ment. Again, we are not vouching to whether the statement is true or not. What we want here is, of course,your best 293 independent recollection, A. I'm under oath at this moment. I don't want no headaches. I'm giving it to you straight. 0. Insofar as your previous statement, it may or may not be accurate, but it may refresh your memory. A. Right. 0) To one extent or another, A. All right. Q Then we will use the statement on that basis, Ao) AIAG eI Shiy 9, , Your memory is that you had a definite return call, a message to returm a call to Jack Ruby ?- A. Right. 2. And did you do that the same day? A. I must have done it the same day my wife told me, yes, O, Now, again, the FBI statement reflects that you | recalled the date as November 11 of 1963. The toll records, | however, reflect a date four days earlier, that is, November 7th of 1963, At this time do you have any memory as to which date is correct? A. The date that he called me at my house is the authentic date. Q. Well-- A. That's the only time he called, the first time. 294 if the record,telephone toll records reflect ar Well, Ruby collect from your home phone on Novem- that you called ber 7th to retum his call-- That's the operator's number, all A. (Interrupting) thisesturr? Right, Would November 7th square with your memory es as to the date of the call? A. Is that Hote the fife time as he called me Q. Yes, sir, that's what the record reflects. A. I'll go with that, then. Could you tell us the substance of the call with Mr Q. | Ruby ? A. Oh, yes. Jack Ruby told me a mutual friend told me to call you in regard to a labor trouble that he had in Dallas with the union that wouldn't let him put on local talent shows in a burlesque night club that he owned, would I intervene for him as the mutual friend said that I could help him. I then asked him who the mutual friend probably was and he was evasive in mentioning the mutual friend. I don't know why but he didn't tell me, so I went further witn the conversation, 0). Complete the conversation and then I'll come back, A. Fine. Then I told him that I just got out of a correctional institute and that I'm not allowed to be in- volved with any labor management relation affairs and this 295 vould be putting me in a position of that kind, so we've z0t to forget about it. I asked him again who the friend vas. He said, 'Well, if you can't do it for me, you can't aelp me, what the hell, forget about it," Os All right. When he said mutual friend, was it singular or plural? A. No, a friend, mutual friend, 0. Just one? A Yes. | Q. When you say he was evasive as to the mutual friend} lid he indicate that he had talked to the friend by telephone | x personally or where the friend might be? | A. No, The way he talked was like somebody that might | lave been visiting out there with him, sounded like, and he lust be buying him a few drinks or something, I don't know, something like that. Like somebody was there, you know, Q. Was there any indication that this mutual friend vas a Chicago resident or a Dallas resident? . A. Didn't mention anything like that. Dallas I touldn't know, I never was there, never was in Dallas. ay You'd never been to Dallas? A. Texas, forget about it. Q. All right. He stated to you that his problem was is inability to put on a local talent show and amateur show? A. Something like that, yes, 296 a. Now, the union which he was dealing with, did he state what union? A. Actors Guild Variety, I think, AGVA. 9. Were you familiar with that particular union? A. No. I know a lot of people in unions, but I never knew that particular union, I wouldn't know. QO In 1963 did you know anyone connected with the AGVA' Union, either on a national or local level? A. I couldn't tell you because there were a lot of people in the Central Labor bodies. Could be an AGVA guy, could be Muscians Union. You meet all the trade unions when ; | you go do these meetings. I might have said hello to a guy that could be one but not identified as one; never even questioned him what union he was with. So I say no, and somebody calls up and says you remember me, you met me, I wouldn't know. 9. Would it be a fair statement that your testimony today is that you have no memory of knowing a particular in- dividual and knowing that that indjvidual was an AGVA affil- iated person? A. Absolutely; meen fo 0. Had you in any of your previous union dealings ha to contact AGVA for any particular labor problem? A. Not at all. 9. What was your knowledge or opinion of AGVA in te 297 of the kind of union it was, its strength, its abilities? Did you have any such opinion? A. I never gave it a thought. Teamsters and all the unions that we worked with, blue collar labor, that's the ones that we associated ourselves with. We never come in contact with AGVA, I didn't, in any respect. 0: Did you ever tell Jack Ruby that you had no con- tact with AGVA people and that was not exactly your particu- lar line? A. No, I didn't tell him that. I just told him I Cannot interfere or have labor management relations because of my lone Pee this institution, federal correctional, and that if I did, I'd only be putting myself in a bind. .IL let it go at that. Q. There is an indication in the FBI statement again that Ruby said that his competitors were "attempting to Knock me out", A. Right, he did say that. Thank you for reminding me. He did mention that, that's right. 1). Did he elaborate on that at all? A. Yes. He says, "They allow them wd Operate but they Don't: allow me to operate." Q. Did he mention any particular competitors by name, either individual or clubs? A. No. He just says the other guys that own the same 44-105 0 - 79 - 20 298 that I got, the competition to me. He type of businesses said, "They let them operate; they don't let me operate." to you then that AGVA was showing some a He indicated kind of favortism? A. No. He didn't mention AGVA. Q. He did not? A. No, but that I assumed, The only one in enter- actors, singers, et cetera, in that field tainment business, I mentioned that myself, IL guess, because I would be AGVA. been around the labor organizations so figured that--I've long, jurisdictional, I know where they belong. There is another statement in the FBI that Ruby Q: related he had several strip shows operating in Dallasy.in | Dallas area, and said that the American Guild of Varieties the t ‘ me a headache. He told Baker that competi- | AGVA, are giving through the help of AGVA are "giving me a Fist" “uDoes tors that refresh your memory as to any of the conversation? A. Words to that effect, right. Ay So those particular words-- eal (Interrupting) His talking; his talking. Yes, that refreshes me a lot in memorizing exactly what it was about. He was doing most of the explaining, excited, what- not, over the situation; how he's being taken over a hurdle, so to speak, trying to push him out of business, and I think he did mention several of the competitors. 299 Q. Did he indicate to you what it was exactly that he wanted done? A. Yes. He wanted somebody that can go in and talk to these, talk to Intermational or somebody, of this organi- zation that had jurisdiction over his particular field of employment, and sit them down, I guess, and talk to them and negotiate the situation whereby he should be given the same understanding that they gave the others, other places. Q. Did he ever suggest to you that he would want any- thing more than negotiation or want to know anyone that you might know who could help him to do anythirg more than ne- gotiate? A. No, but he was an excited par abes individual on the phone. He was doing most of the talking. 'Well, I'1l get somebody else.'' He says, "I know people", bragadosha, this and that, but I mean he didn't mention--he wouldn't, anyhow--he wouldn't mention the mutual friend, and that bothered me, and that I didn't know him, never knew him. When I come into Chicago, I believe he was already out of Chicago. Q). Yes. I'm curious, Did he ever bring up his Biicacc background with you just at the beginning of the conversation? A. No. I cut him short, After he got through with his spiel, as you read it, then I told hin, I gave him my 300 situation where I couldn't be in a position to help him, ! that I'd like to but I couldn't, more or less along that line | Q. O.K. Now, there is an indication that you, of course, would not give Mr. Ruby any satisfaction so he said that he would contact some other people? A. Oh, yes, he hinted like that. Q. Hinting in a way that he had a lot of contacts? A; Oh, sure, Did he specifically name any of the contacts, wheth eD) er they were in labor or-- A. No. Sf (Continuing) --any other field? A. . No. He more or less was disgusted with the answer I gave him. ). Now, did you at some later time try to find out who Jack Ruby was and/or who the mutual friend might have been? A. The mutual friend bothered me. I don't know why, I mean, it was about business, but the phone cail was strange the excited--the attitude that the fellow had on the phone towards the end of the conversation, devil may carish, so on. It did bother me to the extent where I wanted to find out what idiot must have given this idiot my name, I want to know Q. So whom did you contact to try to find out? A. I think, I believe, I called him back. I think I 301 called him back. Have you got a statement there that I gave? Yes, I must have. : ). I'll say that the FBI statement does not indicate that there was a second phone call; also say that our records indicate that on November 8th of 1962, the next dayiea tl 522, Jack Ruby called you-- A. Again? ) Q. (Continuing) --from his club. A. Again? ay Again, and the conversation lasted for approximate- ly 14 minutes. Does that refresh your memory? - A. Probably I did call. Maybe he did call me. Maybe he did call me, in his desperation, and the party that he “Says, mutual friend, might have been even there at the time for all I know. I might have told him this guy can do it, bragadosha, you know, with the guy. Must have known me, he chad my number, I didn't give it to him, 0). Well, during this period of time in November of 1963, you had been released from Sandstone three, four months, | { Whatever? A. Something like that. 2. Had you received any calls like Ruby's request for labor assistance? A. Help? as Yes, Sir; 302 A. No, not for labor assistance, | 0. So his call would have been an unusual one? | A. Sure was, especially from a stranger that you don't) | ! , ‘ Here's ' know. You can get a request from someone you know. a man I never met, don't know him, don't know nothing about him, He come on like gang busters, so to speak. Q. Do you have any memory of the second conversation that you had with Jack Ruby? A. I think he was trying to tell me that I could do something along the lines in helping him, but I don't have to do it personally, I must know people that can do some- thing, or along that lines, but I paid no attention to it. 0. Are you saying he was looking for other names, for other leads, from you? A. Probably. Probably did. I mean, I know--I tell you the truth, I can't conceive of.a 14-minute conversation, unless he said, "Hold the wire'', went and had a drink or something, go to the lavatory, come back, I never talked long with him. Q. Your memory of either one of the conversations is that they were not as long as 14 minutes? A. No. Q. You think they were much briefer than that? A. Sure, They couldn't be that long. That's a long time, 303 Q. Well, what would your estimate be of either one of the conversations? A. In what respect? Q. In time. A. Maybe the first time it could have been around at eight minutes maybe, because he was doing all the talking, maybe ten minutes, off the top of my head. I'm just guessing now, But I never heard from him again after all that. Q@. All right, did you attempt to contact any individ- uals in the Chicago area who might have known Ruby.in order to determine how it was that he called you? A. No, because, first of all, I never knew he ac- tually was a Chicago man. I found that out when I watched television weeks later, months later. I don't know how much later. ). You're discussing, then, the Oswald shooting? A Yes, where he hit the buy. Q. And after the Oswald shooting, did you connect the Jack Ruby who called you on the telephone with the Jack Ruby who shot Lee Harvey Oswald? A. The burlesque place was shown on the TV or the Store front place was shown on TV. Sure, I did. I said it nad to be him, ‘ap v First of all, where were you when you heard the 304 news that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald? A. Sitting on the couch in my living room watching TV. a: Was there anyone else with you? A My wife. 2 What was your first reaction to that event? A I said, "Holy God, this is the fellow that called me on the phone." I said, "Here we go again, I'll have another visit." I always figured that somebody is going to find out he called me. Q. So you were not very surprised when the FBI showed up? A. Oh, no; nopine?--L-fFeurede shcnes4o0r Valen eh don't under-rate no one, I know thay tre *sotng to hit them rignt away. But IL was going through unnecessary quizzing at the time. Iwas innocent of the event, I didn't even , know this guy. 0} Did you then attempt to find out from any of your friends or acquaintances who Jack Ruby might have been? ‘A. you the truth, To tell after that--I'd just got out of that correctional joint. I didn't want to know who he was. I didn't even want to look at the TV any more. L didn't want no part of it. I couldn't duck it. §); There's a statement attributed to you in the FBI report that he, Mr. Baker, stated, however, after the assas- sination of President John F. Kennedy and subsequent murder 305 of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, he made inquiry of nume rous: persons in an attempt to determine who referred Ruby to hin. He stated the results of the inquiry were negative and he still has no idea as to the identity of the individual who suggested that Ruby contact him in Chicago, First, did you make that statement to the FBI? A. Yes, I told them that I was interested to know, and then after that thing happened I did get around to asking people did you ever know this guy Ruby on the west side, in a restaurant on the west side, Q. Who were the people that you contacted? A. Just general conversation, at a table. There is a place here where they have Jewish food, They all congre- gate in there. General talking. AEE one person by name that I can identify. Eve rybody sittindsatothestable. «That was the conversation, the big conversation, at the time. Just happened, all this tumult. And who he'd know from Chicago that would give him my name.and who he would hang out with. | Nobody hangs out with that guy. We talked, He was a loner, They didn't want nothing to do with him. He's a nut. Things like that. Q. Were these people whom you spoke with in Chicago people who had known Ruby in Chicago years ago? LA. I imagine they might have because he was a West Side guy, they were raised with him, they went to school with hin. 306 of the other people that Jack Ruby called, AP Some time neriod, are people that you and Jack roughly the same had in common in terms of knowing their name Ruby may have or having some association with then. Let me ask you if you know Iixwin Weiner. A. Yes, sure, Q. And how long have you known him? A. Well, he's been in the bail bond business downtown, had some business with him, taking out pickets I think we like that. I then met him in a restaurant. ie and things a good friend, I think, in Milwaukee. Phil was a friend had of his. 0. This is Phil Avarigio? A. Yes, that's right. And he used to go in the res- taurant. I used to see them together. I know hin, hello, you, this other gentleman. In fact, I see him now, how are very friendly. Q. Did you have any knowledge that Jack Ruby had a conversation with Mr. Weiner? A. No. I didn't know if Ruby had a conversation with of me, outside of what the FBI agents told me anyone outside that he contacted other people in tnis area. fe Did they tell you who he contacted? A. No; they didn't mention no names. oh Did they say what the subject matter of the 307 conversation Ruby had with any of these other individuals? A. No, but I understand it was his problem, that he was trying-- 2. (Interrupting) You understood from-- A. My own thinking that he contacted them people here at the same time he contacted me, because of his labor situa- tions that he had there, troubles, looking for help. Q. You mentioned Mr. Weiner, Mr. Avarigio. Did you ever have any business with either of those two gentlemen other than that which you've indicated with Mr. Weiner, prior to going to Sandstone? A. In business, none. Prior to going to Sandstone, you said? | 0.7% Yes} six. A. No. 0. What about subsequent to that time, anything after Sandstone? A. Well, not with Mr. Weiner, but I think they had som kind of a warehouse where they were selling salvage material, goods, you know, Mr. Alvarigio, and through his people I TOR sae St e might have--not might have, but I probably bought some va rious things, watches and things like that, try to sell them, you : kmow, make a profit, make a living, but he had the sales panty: ple in this warehouse. It was open for the public. 0. Do you know an individual named Michael Shore 308 from Los Angeles? A. No. Did you ever know anyone wno was affiliated with 0. Reprise Records, R-e-p-1-i-s-e? A. No; no. ae Did you know an individual by the last name of Mazzel, who's also from Los Angeles? A. That West Coast area, I'm very much unknown to everybody there, I don't know too many people there. Q. What about "Dusty" Miller? A. Yes. "Dusty" was a vice president. Then he was now of our Intemational Union. Hell the secretary-treasurer of a mice guy. 0. Approximately how many years did you now Mr. Miller? A. Quite a few. You see, I've been with the Teamstexs a while. Nine, ten years maybe; L don't know. I mean, quite that I know him, see him coming to conferences, meetings. He I believe, of the Southem Conference Team- was a director, sters. nF Your relationship with Mr Miller was very friend A. Well, not as much as other V.P.'s that I knew the Midwest. But very gracious, real nice person. Sit down have coffee at the meetings or something, somebody be at tne table with him, other people. 309 by: Did you have any knowledge that Jack Ruby had Balled "Dusty" Millex? A. I believe it is in my report that they told me that, didn't they? The FBI, I think, told me that. I'n just asking you because I did hear-- + You're welcome to review the report. I don't find that. A. No; no; no, Either them or somebody told me that he contacted Miller, And the story I got, this guy had enough moxey or guts that he--I think he mentioned my name. He's a friend of mine all of a sudden, oy You think that Jack Ruby mentioned your name to Mr. Miller? | A. I heard that somewhere, I think so. dg. Do you have any memory of talking to Mr. Miller and discussing the fact that Jack Ruby might have called him? re No, I haven't no recollection of that at all. 0): Did you-- A. (Interrupting) But he's,this fellow is, nervy enough to go anywhere angels fear to tread, mention names, “4 do anything to get what he wants. 5 Your memory is that you heard that Jack Ruby men- tioned your name to Mr, Miller as an entre tc Mr. Miller? A. I believe that he might have told me that himself, 310 I don't know who told me. Somewhere I heard that. f), Could it have come from Mr. Miller? A. Maybe. Q). Could have come from Mr. Miller, could have come from some other source? Ant, Maybe, or maybe somebody working for lr. Miller. He might have mentioned it to someone else who had been WOTrk- ing for him. I just can't put my finger on it. Q. Did you have any personal contact with Mr. Miller after your release from Seat apse A. Well, no, I never had no contact with Mr. Miller. The only contact I would have had would be with the gentle- man I was working for, with Hoffa. | 9. What knowledge or relationship, if any, did you have with a Joe Glaser? A. Joe Glaser? Q. Yes. A. He used to manage a band or something like that in Chicago. That's all I know about him, a4 Did you have any personal relationship with Mr. Glaser? A. I don't remember having any relationship with Joe Glaser; I don't remember having any at all with him; seeing him in restaurants and such; different places where he would} go to eat, but I personally had nothing to do with Mr. Glaze 311 OF What relationship, if any, have you had with Paul Dorfman? ny Paul Dorfman was a friend of Mr. Hoffa's, and I met him, and he's a real nice man, and any business relation- ships, I had no business relationships at all. I believe he had his own union, some independent waste paper union, some- thing, AFL-CIO. J. Well, the Waste Handlers Union in Chicago, which Mr. Dorfman had from approximately 1947 to sometime in the late 1950's was a union in which Jack Ruby had originally been an organizer in the late '40's, : A. Not with Mr. Dorfman. With Mr. Dorfman? Q. No. The history is that in 1947 the president of that union, Leon Cook, was killed, | ) A. I didn't know that. Q. And Mr. Dorfman became president of that union after the death of Mr. Cook. A, I see, ay Did you have any knowledge of that history that I've just laid out to you? A. No; no, 0). Did you ever discuss Jack Ruby with Mr. Dorfman? A No reason to, a It never came up? The subject never came up in any conversation? sy 312 A. No; no. Q. What relationship, if any, did you have with Allen Dorfman? A. Allen Dorfman, the only relationship I have with him is that I'm employed by him now, I work for him, 2, Did. you have any contact with Allen Dorfman in 1963, '64? A. I was always friendly with Allen, and talking about, making money. Business ways, none whatsoever. Q. In any of your conversations with Mr. Ruby, did he ever mention anything about a lawsuit that he might file or trying to get an injunction or anything like that? A. None. Q. Never discussed that possibility. Did he ask you for any advice? | Ay No; no. 0. What relationship, if any, have you ever had with Nofio Pecora? Have you ever heard that name, New Orleans? A. Wone whatsoever. That's strange. Q. What relationship, if any, have you had with Dave A. Oh, friend, Q. How long were you associated with Mr. Yaras? A. Not associated. A friend; liked him very much, hia and his family, and he was more or less a resident in Miami 313 Beach, I think. aF Did you have much contact with Mr. Yaras during 1963? A. Not much contact, no; no. I believe he tried to help me one time get a job, I think, while I was in-between, and that was some laundry that his son was heading, some kind of uniform company, and he asked me if I would want to go to work on a commission basis. He said, "You must know a lot of people, places; maybe you can bring in some business; work on commission.'' I was interested in a salary. I couldn't wait for commissions. I says, "Dave," I says, "I've got to get a set salary, something to take home," 9. Did you have-- | A. (Interrupting) Once or twice I spoke to him on the phone in Florida. I think I called him back, I'm not Sure now, but I know we did talk on the phone. Oo . There was a phone call on November 21, and the records indicate that call was from you to Mr. Yaras.. A. Possibly telling him that I was thinking over what I told him, that I had to talk it over, think about it, and I called him back, telling him that I appreciated it but I couldn't take it, so forth, so on, i. Did you ever discuss Mr. Ruby with Mr. Yaras?: A. I don't think anything occurred with Mr. Ruby in Calling me before that happened, where he offered me a job, ’ 44-105 0 - 79 - 21 314 9. . Well, I'm- A. (Interrupting) I don't recall that. (Continuing) --looking to the possibility of wheth-| ap er or not after the Oswald shooting-- A. After the whole smear was over. (Continuing) --whether or not you had any conver- Q. sation with Yaras?. A. Pertaining to-- Q. Yes, you may have discussed Ruby coming from in Chicago, whether he knew him. A. Yes, I knew him well enough to ask. him that. I never did, no. Did you know that Mr. Yaras “ Jack Ruby were or from the same neighborhood in Chicazv? A. It is a known fact that every Jewish family tuat ‘grew up came from a certain place called the West Side, or something, Chicago, and that's possible. I can just put two and two together; they must have came out of the same area. Bute eee questioned or asked anybody after the incident where he come out of, It was known then, you know, that he © come out of the West Side of Chicago. 0. Did you have any conversation with Lenny Patrick about Jack Ruby? A. I haven't seen Lenny Patrick. I saw him maybe onc in my whole life or twice in my whole life, only visioned ning 315 and I've never had any conversation pertaining to anything with Lenny Patrick. In fact, I don't even see him around no more. ing In 1962 there were several reported conversations in which Mr. Hoffa made some statements about Bobby Kennedy and about killing Attomey General Bobby Kennedy. A. I was around Mr. Hoffa a great deal, and I don't think there was anybody any closer to Jimmy than I was, and I know he had a running battle with Bob Kennedy. It seemed like both of them enjoyed the fight, and I was before that committee. You know it. | Poes Yes sesire A. And I never heard bitin Ys aydiie I never heard him say, | kill Bob Kennedy. He'd like to knock his brains out maybe, |have a fist fight with him. That could have happened in the |courtroom the way both of them were tangling, but not that :extreme, no, I never heard it, no. | Q: Did you know-a Frank Chavitz? A. I met Frank Chavitz, yes. I met him in the Inter- National office. ab Approximately when, can you recall? A, Yes, sure, around four days before Jimmy went away, at the International office in Washington, D.C. Q. Was there some special kind of meeting? A. Well, he was going away, people were going in to 316 see him, wish him well. 9. Was that the first-time you had met Frank Chavitz? A Yes, Q. Did you have any knowledge that Frank Chavitz nad | made threats against Attorney General Robert Kennedy? A. No, really. | Q. Did you ever hear that he had come to Washington, : D.C bpewitheairiéte to shoot Attorney General Kennedy? || A. Can't believe it. I mean, I can't believe it. Wait a minute. I've never heard it, no. But l just added | to ited just¥can' tedelieve eit. | | 9. Well, what is there about Frank Chavitz or about | that particular incident that you would not believe that | -would A. be possible? Well, the esi has to be insane to do anything like i that, for God's sake. These guys, they're doing their job. | They had a job to do, They're taking you on, Win, lose or draw, Buddy, you don't result to that, you don't kill people. | Iicaniec see anybody doing it. That's why it surprised me when you say came in for a purpose. That would be an awful } thing. Q. You have testified that you never heard Jimmy Hofta‘f make any kind of threat against the life of Robert Kennedy ? A. No, none on the life of Robert Kennedy. ), And I take it also that that would include Presider 317 John Kennedy also? A. Oh, a great guy; thought he was a good man. 9. What was-- A. (Interrupting) He was on the committee, by the way I liked him. He was all right. He treated me fair; 0. Was Mr. Hoffa's, let's say, anger or dispute with the Kennedy administration more directed towards Robert fennedy or the administration as a whole? A. No, It was a personal matter, He thought that it yas a vendetta against him by Bob, to get Jimmy. Q. And what was Mr. Hoffa's then response if he -Hought that there was this personal vendetta by the Attorney xene ral? | A. Oh, he was there to defend himself legally, to show 1im that he was wrong, that he was just intimidating, fram- ng him. That's the expression. Things of that.sort. Q). It is an expression used by Mr. Hoffa? A. Yes; big frame; never did anything like that. lere's a guy coming in with all kinds of statements and words ‘© that effect, I mean, you don't think he's going to like tim, Here's a guy that's going to break him, send him to ail, He's not going to love him. Q. That's the point that we're tryingto get to. A. ‘Yes, But it never reach Jimmy mentally where he ‘ould express himself viciously to kill a guy, like you made 318 the statement that he might have said, I never heard it. ). Could Jimmy Hoffa get to such anger, just for even | where he might say something like that without a moment, really meaning it? | A. Oh, sure. God, people say a lot of things in sada could be expressions.that come out, never ever doing and they will say in their anger. But I never neard him say what that. Q. The McClellan Committee hearings and the Justice investigation of Jimny Hoffa had gone on for some Department number of years prior to November of '63? A. A lot of years. Q. And Mr. Hoffa had, as you Say, expressed the view there was a personal vendetta with an effort to frame that him? A: Yes, Q. In November of '63, if you can recall that time period, Mr. Hoffa again nad some very serious legal problems.] I believe that was when they were getting ready for the sec- ond trial down in Cnattanooga “ maybe Nashville at that time} Were you in touch with him during that period of time to fin out what his attitude was toward things? ae No. All through that Tennessee dealings I never contacted him or he me, | 0. Well, what was the reason for that? 319 A. I don't understand. I figured how aw you, call, something, you know. But that was, you say, what year? ak November of '63. A. Well, I was out then--no; no, 4) Well, how many-- A. (Interrupting) I saw him in Chicago when I came out. They had a meeting at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. That is where I confronted him on my chances of getting back; I had had so many years there. I come out without a pension program, things like that. I said, "Hey, I'm a senior citi- zen now, buddy, take it easy with me." AR Who was present at that meeting at the Edgewater after your release? A. Regular Executive--not Executive but Central States that they had, That was one of the meetings that fhe catietal States, I believe, had. J. Was there any kind of formal request by you to talk to anyone? A. No; no, I can always walk in, open the door. They never had the door closed when I went back. I could always : Open the door, say, "Jimmy, how are you?" Not only me but _ any member of the union could walk in on him and he'd give ‘them the first crack to talk because he knew that they had | to get back to work, He was strictly a labor man, Q). How often did you see Jimmy Yoffa during the fall 320 o£°19632 A. Not often at all. Just at that going away when-- | well, that was later. | 9. Yes, that was later. ! A. 163 I come out. I saw him that one time, and then i He was preparing to go in when I came out. { | Q. I think that was a couple of years after. | A. He was fighting it then, fighting the case. Maybe | | he was in the courts, what-not. Because I know that I was in Washington the week end that he had to tum himself in. | Q. So I take it, then, from what you've said that | your contact with him in the fall of '63 after you got out were certainly not very close, maybe Clee: SPIN maybe two : times? | | Awn .Thatis ae | ff I just want to get into a short area of some | places |} where you might have traveled that Mr. Ruby also traveled. ! | | Have you ever been to Cuba? | | A. No. | ! | Q. Did you ever discuss with anyone the fact that Jacls jp | there? A. JZ didn't even know he was there, no. Q. What about Las Vegas? What trips, if any, did you take to Las Vegas, and I want to just put this in a time 321 period, 1960? A. One in 1946, All right, kid, I went there, They were building a hotel. I went there to look at this sky- scraper that was being built on the desert. That's all. A) That was the Flamingo? A I said '46, It was '47 that I went. Q. That was the Flamingo? A. Yes. Opened in '46, ‘'47 I went. You're right. The green felt jungle. Q. We already indicated-- A. (Interrupting) I haven't been in Vegas--this is unusual--never since ‘OP, 43; Titrie desire § woth ike to go sometime, I've never been there anne "47. Q. You've indicated before that you were never in A. Tuat s cient. Q. What about New Orleans? A. I never was in New Orleans, 9. What about Miami? A. Oh, I've been there; worked around there; lived there, you know. | Q. Let's discuss the period late 1950's,up to the time you went to Sandstone, A. Well, late ‘50's. I think you have a record on it better than I because you fellow do a very good job on that. 322 there recuperating from a neart ailment that I had, I was the type that I had in Washington, D.C., when I was com- mitted to the Washington-Jefferson Hospital. After thah. Tots and went back to Chicago. Then from Chicago I toox | got out my wife down to Florida to rest. That was in:thes50¢s a> FO 9BO Eugene or Clyde Smahldone from Denver? a nd 327 A. No. 4). Roger Bauman, B-a-u-m-a-n? A No, Q. "Happy" Meltzer, Los Angeles? A. No. Wait now, hold still. "Happy" Meltzer? Q. Meltzer, yes. A. There was a "Happy''=-could he be in the sixties or seventies? I don't know the last name now, but I once met in Chicago a fellow named "Happy", Q. Under what circumstances, do you remember? A. No, It was no business deal or nothing like that. Nothing with unions or anything like that. But somebody, saliformia fellow, "Happy", meet Nappy". That wouldn't be the fellow that's married to or was going with that actress's ; nother. What's her name? Big Mouth, Raye, | Q. Martha Raye? : Yes? | That I don't know. Now, if that's the one, I might have. O.K. Joseph, Fred or George Sica, C-i-c-a? No. Lou Lederer? ! ere ee a "NOt ~MR. HORNBECK: Let's just take a break for a minute, , (Thereupon a short recess was taken.) 328 MR. HORNBECK: Just a couple more things. BY MR. HORNSECK: oe Did you ever meet or have any relationship with Carlos Marcello, New Orleans? A. No. Q. Did you have any knowledge that Mr. Marcelo and Mr. Hoffa were related in any way, in a business sense? A. Not that I know of. Q. If they had been involved in any kind of a business deal, prior to your entering Sandstone, in the early '60's, would it be something that you think you would have been aware of? A. I don't think so. Kept me with the labor situation and any other businesses, you wouldn't be informed or know anything about, My job was Central States, organizational work, wherever he would send me, but that wouldbe pertaining to Teamsters Union out. That was it, Q. Did you have much to do with the pension fund busi- ness, that is, loan applications, granted or received, any of those negotiations? A. No’, ot sateaLay 0. There was a real separation? A. Labor Union guys had nothing to do with that. That§ was strictly their own body, voted by whatever, trustees or what-not, That had nothing to do with the Teamsters, 329 Teamsters' officials as such, Q). Did you know or have any relationship at all with James Palmieri of New York? A. Is this back in the '40's or '30's? I don't know the name. I left there in '40-some-odd, New York. Q. Did you have any knowledge of or relationship with Dominick Bartone of Cleveland? A. I met Dominick Bartone. I only met him because he had some meetings with Mr. Hoffa. That's all. fy. Can you pinpoint, roughly, when that would have bee and what the subject of that particular meeting was? A. Years ago, had to be years ago, had to be better than seven, eight, nine. Let's put it that way. In Chicago, Ge nee ee aa en aes a ee Jait now. Got to be better than that. 2. Could it have been somewhere in the early aT OCLs 2 A. Before I went away, yes, sure, Q All right. A. "59, '60, could be, Q O.K. There was more than one meeting? A. He was there a couple of times to see Jimmy. oe 6h relationshin to what particular problem? HAs I don't know, 3 i So) al | : s ¢. Were you present at any of the meetings Hewes fr. Bartone and Mr. Hoffa? A. No. Iwas never taken into that confidence, I mer205 0 - 79 - 22 330 don't know, Whatever business they had. 9. Was a Mr. ‘Tricaro with Mr..Bartone?. know if Lou Tricaro was with him or not, A. I don't well. It is possible that he was; it's but I know Lou very possible, I can't pinpoint it that it is so. ever have any knowledge of Mr. Hoffa and an Did you involved in any deal to sell airplanes to Mr. Bartone being Cuba? Ae Not to my knowledge. I haven't heard that. you aware of any business interests that Mr. Q. Were Hoffa might have had in Cuba? A Yoffa? Q. Yes, sir, A No. And that kind of a question would surprise you, dd is that what you're saying? | Be Sure does. It would surprise me if he did. Mr. Hoffa never mentioned Cuba, American gambling Ap interest in Cuba, to you? A. No; no. L've been pretty close to the man. de never mentioned to me anything. Q. Did Mr. Hoffa ever discuss with you any investments any’ business intexests, that he might have in Las Vegas? A. No, none whatsoever. Q. Did he ever discuss with you any loan interests th 331 the Teamsters had in Las Vegas? \ A. No, outside of reading papers. You find out things: in them, 0. I'm not asking for media information. I'm asking for any conversations-- A. No. ar (Continuing) =-any knowledge whatsoever, A No, I haven't, Q. Did you ever meet a Robert Maheu? A Let's. see, I got to know-- Q. Working for the Hughes Organization? A. No. | . a ey Q. Again I'm restricting this to the early 1960's. A. No. | | 0. Did you have any Set on onae with any membe x of che Hughes Organization? A. Not that I know of, I never ran into anybody, Q. That question would entail either you personally Xx through Mr. Hoffa. A. No. 9. All right. It is customary at the conclusion of lux testimony in Washington that the committee members per= lit the witnesses to give any brief statements that they wish 0, either placing their testimony in context or commenting m the areas of questioning that have preceded this five-. 332 minute period, This is a deposition. The same rule does apply. However, it is our practice to permit the witness | not has a particular statement or observation that he would! if he like to state, that it is his percgative to so state that on you the | record. $0 at this time, if there is anything like to add for the record that pertains to this in- : would vestigation, we would appreciate that. | A. No. The only thing I can say is the questions you | asked me I answered them truthfully, honestly, and any date situations there that I don't know about, that's the only thing. | 9. We indicated before, to the best of your memory, is all we can ask at this time. A. I gave everything to you straightforward, truth- ihe MR. HORNBECK: That will complete the deposition, Thank you for your appearance. (Witness excused.) 333 United States of America, ) City of Chicago, ‘ SS, State of Illinois. ‘ I, James T. Balog, Magistzate Judge, United States District Court, do certify that, pursuant to notice, there came betesta staal: in Room 1669, 219 South Dearbom, Chicago, Illinois, Robert Barmey Baker, who was by me duly sworm to testify the whole truth of his knowledge touching the matter in arena aforesaid; that he was examined and his examination at the time reduced to writing in Stenotypy by _ Roger May, and that such examination has been correctly transcribed and is fully and accurately set forth in the 55 preceding pages; that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; that said deposition was tak- a Faag €n on the day, between the hours and at the place in that behalf aforesaid. I do further certify that I am not counsel, attor- ney, or relative of either party, or clerk or stenographer of, Pag AEES GOL Fg i either party 2 or of the attomey of either ° party, or othenvise' 1 ° H . | interested in the event J of this « matter. J { IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand : this day of 1978, _ : Magistrate Judge 334 on ee ee SS om oe as os at antes May, do hereby certify that the proceed- I, Roger of Robert Bamey Baker in ings set forth in the deposition took place on the date as first here- the 55 preceding pages in Chicago, Illinois, and that this is inbefore set forth, nranseript of my Stenographic notes taken a full and correct at said deposition. 335 iii. Joseph Campisi Biographical Summary (908) Joseph Campisi was born October 11, 1918, in Dallas (1134) He was described as 5’5’’, 190 pounds, with brown , Tex. black hair. He had no military record or FBI number, eyes and married to Edith Marie Campisi; they had four childre (1135) He was Gis. had been residing at 4445 Ashford, Dallas, n. (1136) for many years. 1137 (909) Campisi’s major source of income was the Egyptian Lounge, a restaurant and bar located at 5610 Kast Mockingbird Lane, which he had owned and operated with his brother, Sam, for Dallas, a ber of years. Following Sam’s death in late 197 0, he continued num- the Egyptian while negotiating its sale with Sam Campisi’s to run widow. ‘The FBI received information that in late 1973 Campisi offered sell his share of the Egyptian, with the intention of building to restaurant at another location in Dallas. (2138) Apparently thisa new idea did not develop fully, as the committee was told in 1978 that Sam Campisi’s widow eventually began litigation to protect her interests, and the matter was settled out of court in 197 8, with Campisi a payment of $200,000. (7139) making (910) Joe and Sam Campisi had been business partners for many years. In 1946 or 1947, they bought the Idle Hour Bar in Dallas, which they sold in 1957 or 1958 when they bought the Egyptian. They also operated the Par-5 Club, a private club adjoini (1740) ng the Egyptian. (1/4/) (911) The Egyptian appeared to have been a consistent and ap- preciable source of income. This was indicated not only by the amount paid to Sam Campisi’s widow, but by Joe Campisi’s statement to the FBI that he and his brother each netted $42,000 from the restaura in 1960,(1742) and by the information received from a nt Campisi friend (Tony Todora) in 1967 estimating that each brother netted $100,000 per year from their restaurant business. (1143) (912) Campisi had been involved in several other business ventures . For a number of years, he aided the promotion in Dallas of gambli junkets ng sponsored by the Flamingo Hotel in Las Vegas (which ended in 1967 when the hotel changed ownership).(1144) He had also been involved in an insurance enterprise, Joe Campisi and Asso- ciates, in the 1970’s, having filed for a license as a casualty insurance agent.(7145) There was no indication of the success of this operati on in the materials reviewed by the committee. (913) Campisi may have been aided in these businesses by his contacts with political and law enforcement persons. A 1970 FBI report related an informant’s assertion that Campisi was close with both State judges and members of the Dallas County District’s At- torney’s office.(1746) He allegedly had contacts within the Dallas Police Department. When Campisi learned that William Decker would be replaced as Dallas’ Sheriff, he reportedly hoped that Clar- *nce Jones would be his replacement, as the Dallas bookmakers would then be able to operate without any problems. (1747) (914) Campisi had been linked with both gambling and bookmak- ng activities in the Dallas area,(1148) but had never been arrested 336 down such for any gambling activities. In interviews, he played his gambli ng could jeopardize activities. He apparently feared that Egypti an Lounge , (7/49) and the FBI files indicated the success of the which ies over the years, fluctuations in Campisi’s gambling activit which his might have corres ponded to these fears and similar ones brother had. (1750) . This (915) Campisi was arrested once, on July 29, 1944, for murder who t involve d the shooti ng of an employ ee of Campis i’s sneciden believed allegedly drew a knife on him. A Dallas County grand jury Campis i’s claim of self-de fense, as they refused to indict. (175/) law en- (916) While Campisi’s technical characterization in Federal from forcement records as an organiz ed crime member has ranged ) it is clear that he was an definite to suspected to negative,(7152 s, associate or friend of many Dallas- based organiz ed crime member particularly Joseph Civello during the time he was the head of the had Dallas organization. (1153) There was no indication that Campisi engaged in any specific organized crime-related activities. Association with Ruby (917) Campisi stated that he had known Jack Ruby since 1947 (1154) or 1949,(1155) but that the extent of their relationship was contacts 1963, at the Egyptian, where Ruby stopped for a steak November 21, or Vegas clubs which Ruby operated, (1757) (1156) at the Carousel told or at various athletic events in the Dallas area.(1158) Campisi very the committee that Ruby came to his home once but did not stay in long.(1159) Yet, later in his FBI interview in 1963, Campisi stated an apparent contradiction, that he never socialized with Ruby. (1160) | (918) Campisi also contradicted himself in another context. that Ruby operated his business 0 November 25, 1963, he told the FBI a cash basis and carried money from the club in his pocket. (1167 ) minutes. (1165) (920) Ruby did not tell Campisi why he had killed Oswald, (1166) and Campisi said he did not ask.(1767) Ruby did not give any indica} tion that he had known Oswald previously, (7768) but he did mentioy doing his extreme sympathy for Mrs. Kennedy and broke down while so.(1169) Campisi said that Ruby wanted to know the reaction of hiq friends and public in general to his act. (7770) (921) Documented associates that Ruby and Campisi had in commo¥ J oh ‘ncluded Russell D. Matthews, Benjamin Binion, James R. Todd, Grizzaffi, Ralph Paul and Tony Zoppi. (1/77) Campisi attended scho with Matthews (//72) and Campisi stated that he was a friend of B 33d on’s(/173) and Todd’s.(1174) Campisi bought the Egyptian from rizzafh,(7/75) and in 1966 Grizzafli and Johnny Patrono tried to get ie Campisi brothers to back them in some sort of business deal. (1176) alph Paul, operator of the Bull-Pen Restaurant and Ruby’s closest ‘iend, was characterized by Campisi in an FBI interview as his part- er,(11 77) This characterization is unique and is probably inaccurate (178) as Paul’s name does not appear in any other materials involv- ig Campisi, and Campisi told the eommittee that he did not have an dependent relationship with Paul, just knew him as a friend of uby,(//79) Campisi was also friendly with Abe Weinstein, one of uby’s former nightclub competitors. (7780) and Campisi was known shave flown to Las Vegas on at least one gambling junket with Wein- ein. (1787) reatment by the Warren Commission 922) The only reference to Campisi by the Warren Commission was 16 inclusion of Campisi’s December 7, 1963, interview with the FBI. {182) The Commission failed to question Campisi himself. 923) Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assassina- ons. 338 UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS 0000000 United States Federal Building U.S. Magistrate Courtroom 16-F23 1100 Commerce Street Dallas, Texas Monday, May 22, 1978, 9:50 a.m. APPEARANCES: JOHN HORNBECK, Senior Staff Counsel ¢ Select Committee on Assassinations U. S. House of Representatives Washington, D. C. PERS DONALD PURDY, Staff Counsel Select Committee on Assassinations U. S. House of Representatives Washington, D. C. 20515 SWORN TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH CAMPISI 339 PROCEEDINGS Ihereupon, JOSEPH CAMPISI mas duly sworn and testified as follows: EXAMINATION ‘'¥Y MR. HORNBECK: Q. Would you state your name for the record, spelling your last name, please? A. Joseph Campisi, C-a-m-p-i-s-i. Q. What is your present home address, Mr. Campisi? A. (4445 Ashford Drive, Dallas, Texas. Q. And your present occupation is what, sir? : A. The restaurant business. | —Q What is the name of your restaurant? A. The Egyptian Restaurant, Inc. : Q. And how long have you been associated with shat particular business? A. At Peat et 28 years. | Q. Mr. Campisi, before we begin questioning in oday's deposition, let a ees om the record that, one, you lave been sworn here today, and the deposition that we are aking is one that requires the swearing of the witness and -S taken under oath. Do you understand that, sir? A. Yes, .six. 340 Q. In addition to that, the court reporter is transcribing what we say today, and this transcription will then be certified by the court reporter as an accurate representation of the discussions had today. Do you also understand that? A. Yes, Bick Q. Prior to today, have you received a copy of the Committee Rules for the Select Committee on Assassinations, including the resolution of the House of Representatives establishing that committee? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have any questions whatsoever with regard to the rules of the committee or with regard to the proceedings here today? A. Well, as far as rules I don't understand it, you know. All I'm here to do is answer the questions you ask me. Q. Is your appearance here today to take this deposition free and voluntary on your part? fon Yes, -sir% Q. You have been informed that if you desired to have counsel you could have one present? A. Yes>) S435, Q. And I take it at this time your election is to proceed voluntarily without the assistance of counsel; is that 341 correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you have any questions whatsoever with regard to the proceedings today, our function, the scope of the inquiry, any questions that pertain to any of those subjects prior to our beginning? A. Now, I don't understand that. You're asking me about, you know, what questions you are going to ask me or == I don't -- Q. Do you have any questions about the oroceedings today, that is, the taking of your statement under oath, what your rights and obligations are aS a witness? Do you have any questions about those matters? A. I don't even know how to answer it. Q. Well, let me just explain some of the rules that pertain to the taking of a deposition. First of all, the deposition is EReenene ee given, as we have explained. A. Yes. Q Secondly, you could have counsel present to assist you during the questioning. A. Yes. . 0. Third, you have the right to refuse to answer any question on the grounds of self-incrimination. Do you understand that? 342 A. Yes. 0. And, fourth, that all questions and answers given today are taken under oath which means they that are be truthful to the best of your memory so that there must not be the criminal problem of perjury for any statement would that is given willfully and untruthfully. Do you understand that? A. Yes, I understand that. Q. With those rights being explained to you, are there any other questions that you -~ A. -You asked me if I didn't want to answer a right, then I could refuse to answer that question? guestion, 0. That's correct, Sir. I don't know what questions you are A. Well, going to ask me. Q. The questions will relate to -- A. Excuse me. 0. Sure. A. Is everything going to be about my associatio with? Gaene Ruby? Are they going to be asked about people that I know, names and stuff like this here? Are you going to ask me about, well, do I John Brown, and I know John Brown, do I have to answer know that I know John Brown? Q. Sir, you do not have to answer any question 343 shat you do not want to answer. We would hope that we would be able to have 1 cooperative session, as you have indicated before, and if vou understand your rights in that regard then we can proceed mM a question to question basis and if we have an area in which there has to be some further discussion, then we can idjourn the proceedings and attempt to reach whatever accord shat we can. A. Okay. Q Let me begin by discussing the area of your ssociation and knowledge with Jack Ruby. And first of all, Mr. Campisi, when did you first meet Jack Ruby? A. Gnmis4g2 Q. Did you meet him here in Dallas? A. Yes, sir. 0. Could I ask you under what circumstances you lave met Mr. Ruby? A. I had a little bar at Main and St. Paul, and ye day a fellow by the name of Milton Joseph brought Jack tuby to my place of business and introduced me to Jack Ruby. Q. Mr. Joseph's business or occupation was what it that time? A. He was a jewelry salesman. Q. And you had known him for some period of time? 344 A. Yes: Q. Was he from Dallas or from Chicago? A. Originally from Chicago. Was it explained to you during the first 0. came to introduce you to Mr. Ruby and meeting how Mr. Joseph | how he knew Mr. Ruby? A. He said they were friends in Chicago. Did he indicate that they had grown up 0. together? Real good friends. I don't remember them A. put they knew one another real well saying grown up together, All right. Could you tell us what was 0. during this first meeting with Mr. Ruby? discussed introduced me to him at thatatime:* a A. He just -- he had opened the Silver Spur, a don't know whether on Ervay street, and that was all of ig hillbilly-type joint rrqnc cne:e. Did Jack Ruby indicate to you why he had lef Q. Chicago and moved to Dallas? A. No. he ever discuss with you hiss dafer kn Q. Did Chicago. A No. Did he ever discuss with you the fact that Q. in a union in Chicago prior to coming to Dallas? had been 345 - A. No. Q. Jack Ruby had a sister in Dallas by the name f Eva Grant? A. Yes. Q. Did you know Mrs. Grant? A. I had met her after they had the place, the as Vegas Club, and probably seen her two or three times in ll of the times after I met her. Q. I take it you met Jack Ruby before you met va Grant; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. When you first met Jack Ruby did he discuss ith you the fact that he was also interested in going into a lub business? A. Well, he was already in the club business 1en I met him, the Silver Spur. Q. Did he ask you for any advice? A. No. 9. Or any assistance? A. No. 0. What kind of acts, entertainment, did Jack iby have during the first club, the Silver Spur? A. It was a hillbilly place. I might have been 1 it one time. I think I was there one time. I don't emember. One time. os a. ims es - ged = 346 You say hillbilly. Did they have bands, live Q. entertainment? I think so. Hillbilly in type. It was a A. rough part of town. Apparently Mr. Ruby was also involved ina Q. Ranch House with a fellow by the name of club, Bob Wills Hyman Fader. Does that particular club or the name of Hyma Fader sound familiar to you? I think that -- I don't know. I knew that A. the Longhorn Club where he booked big named Hy Fader had bands in there. Now whether Jack Ruby was part of it, Il don't recall. You never had any discussions with Mr. Fader Q. or Mr. Ruby regarding their business partnership? A. No. Did you ever hear from any source that Jack Q. taken some money from Mr. Fader in some business Ruby had practice? A. T don't recall. Do you remember hearing any discussion of an Q. kind of animosity between those two individuals? A. They might have had some misunderstanding dealings. I really don't know. You know, through business 347 t's been so long back, you know. Q. Is there something that strikes your memory ‘rom that question that there may have been some ill-feeling vetween the two men? A There might have been some little jealousy fterwards, yes. 0. You indicated that you first met Jack Ruby n 1947 when he moved from Chicago. Did he ever discuss with you people that he new in Chicago, drop names with you of people that he knew n Chicago, anything like that? A. No, not that I recall. He might have done it me I don't recall,it. Q. I guess the question gets to the kind of ndividual that Mr. Ruby was in some areas, and there have feen allegations that Jack Ruby would discuss his Chicago ayS with people at his club and he would discuss famous names f people that he knew in Chicago with patrons and friends. I was wondering if that had occurred with you. A. I don't remember. I really don't. Q. From the period of 1947, continuing on through ve end of 1963, did you continue to know Jack Ruby and to 29eak with Jack Ruby? A. Yes:. Q. Could you tell us the nature of the contacts uh aete 5s 348 that you had with him? A. I would -- After he had opened the Las Vegas Club, I had been over maybe two or three times, and on Friday nights he had amateur hours, and I worked on Friday nights and I always told Jack I couldn't come over. He said, you know, it was a late show, and so one night we went over, my wife and sisters and sister-in-law. They all used to go over there and have a good time because he was funny, and I enjoyed him because he was a little dizzys Q. When you say he was funny, did he act as the Master of Ceremonies in his club? A. Yes. 0. And put on some kind of an act that way? A. Yes. If someone got out of line he would go over there and take care of it himself. Q. There have been some statements that Jack Ruby was quick to stem any kind of trouble in his club. A. Right < Q. Did you personally witness some of those kind of incidents? A. Two of them. Q. Could you describe them for us? A. The night we went over to see the amateur hour, we come in the front door and we sat right at the front table, and there was a boy by the name of Frankie Totorella 349 and a boy by the name of -- THE REPORTER: Frankie who, sir? Could you spell the last name? THE WITNESS: Totorella. THE REPORTER: Do you know how to spell that? THE-WETNESS: “*No% MR. HORNBECK: T-o-t-o-r-e-1=i-4. BY MR. HORNBECK: Q. Te’that correct? A. Yeah. And a boy by the name of 7. *c.. Acams who is deceased now. And we sat there, and they were friends of Jack and so he come over and he says, "I am giving an after- hour party, selling tickets for $5.00." And I was sitting like here (indicating), and Frankie is sitting ere (indicating) and J. C. was sitting where you are sitting (indicating). 0. All right. Because we have a record and because the record does not display the pictures of what you Said, let me state that you have indicated that Frankie was Sitting next to you? A. Yes. Q. And J. C. was sitting next to Frankie? A. No. Across the table. 0. Across the table? *) 350 A. Yeah. Q. And who was sitting next to Frankie on your extreme left? A. I was sitting at the first chair (indicating). 0. On the left? A. And Frankie was in the middle and J. C. was sitting on the side: So Jack comes over and says, “I am selling tickets for an after-hour party for one of the girls who is pregnant," or something, “and they are $5.00." We were cutting up with him. We didn't want to buy them. I bought one for five and Frankie bought one for five and J. C. bought one, and so he is out doing the show and some fellow walks by and he is inebriated and he made some remark about he didn't like Dallas because he had got a DWI. So J. C. says, “Well, sit down here, partner, and let's talk about it," because I knew they were going tom kid this drunk now. So, for some reason, they put some tickets in this drunk man's pocket. So Jack gets through with his show and he comes over and he says, "Where are the tickets," and we says, "Well, here is the money, $15.00." Frankie says, "Well, I don't have the tickets. I says, "Jack, I don't have thestickets,)" sandak. C. says, “I 301. on't have the tickets." He says, "Maybe this guy has the tickets." So Jack grabs this guy and takes him in the Mitie closet where he puts clothes, and he finds the tickets ia this guy's pocket, and he started beating this man. He hit ae guy a couple or three times, and threw him out of his mace of business. 0. He hit him with his fists? A. Yes. Q. In the face or on the body? A. He just hit him. I couldn't see him. put 1ew he was fighting him back there. - ANG Tea WAS mai. Orutnat, SO i says, “It 4s ‘me for me to leave," and I left. Q. Could you tell us approximately when this cident took place? A. | No, I can't. I don't even know what year it iS. 0. Could it have been in 1963 or earlier than iat? A. tocany «, recall the vear or the..date. Q. Do you remember, though, it was at the Carousel lub? | B No, no it wasn't. This was at the Las Vegas lub. 302 Then another incident, we had gone to the Club one night, and of all the times he had that I Carousel in his eae four times, and we would go, a party was probably people would just go by, and Jack would always say, "Won't of you come by," and we would go by.and Sit. there. So we were sitting there, and he had this girl doing the show, and the M. C. was a guy who liked to Jada and would say different things to make the public and heckle the audience mad to where they would talk back to him. So I would say, "Well, Jack, we are going to can't enjoy the show because that boy over there is leave. We hollering and going on and we can't hear the M. co So he would get up and go over there and tell "Now, you have got to be quiet, now." So the kid the guy, and Jack would come back over there and say, would be quiet class?" I would say, "That is class. That is the "Ts that way to run a joint." So we would sit there about 20 minutes more are going to leave." He would say, "Why ar and then say, "We you going to leave?" TZ would sav,.)°Well, thatiguy.7 He would say, “Well, I will go over there and and he would walk over there, and, 7ust. boom! handle it," (Demonstrating .) Q. He would just vounch him? 353 A. Yes. Q. No warning? 5 A. NO warning. Just punch him. So, one night -- it must have been 1:60, and rankie Totorella came by and said, “Let's go up and see Jack." nd we go up and he has got two dogs up there and he says, ™ Love''thesendogs...". 'Iosaids” “Jack”, I, saiad,ol"what would you Oo, Jack, if the dogs one morning wake up and say, 'Jack, we Ove you,' and he laughed about it. SO we are standing there in the entryway. You ad to go up the stairs to get to his place. Q When you say his place, are you talking the -- 4 A. The Carousel Club. So, we looked up and here is a fellow coming p the stairs and he has got a bottle, a fifth of bourbon hat he is carrying in his arms, and at that time there was” 12:00 curfew and you couldn't drink. So Jack come up and says, "Can I help you?" 2 Says, "Yeah, I want to see the show." Jack said, "Well, mes 52.00." I said, "Jack, why don't you match him double ¢ nothing and see if it costs him two or four to get wre Jack says, diMustl alialorctha ter I said, "Yes, go ahead and match him." The guy is drunk, and so Jack -- the guy says, 304 "yeah, I will match you double or nothing." And so the guy loses, and so he gives Jack the $4.00 and this guy takes the bottle and goes to drink it. And when he did, Jack grabs the bottle and he can't drink it there, and gave him $2.00 back, an tells him I said, "No, Jack, you have got to give him founsd He says, "No, he has ate in," and, boom, boom all of the way down the stairs, the bottom Flaghtpots the stairs. The guy gets up and says, "I will see you," and just goes on about his business. We stayed there about 20 minutes and we left. 0. Both of those incidents, the individual who Jack Ruby hit was apparently first unaware that he was going | to be hit, and, second, apparently not in a position to defenc himself; would that be true? a A. It didn't make no difference what physical condition. He would jump on anybody. We used to tell him, "Jack, you are going to get a knife stuck in your stomach." He would go onthe outside and fight young boys many a time. Q. Would they challenge him? A Sure, they would. He would fight him. Q. I take it if someone is going to be in the \ 44-405 625 395 club business and be involved in acting as his own bouncer that at some point he is going to come in contact with the police department. What was Jack Ruby's relationship with the police department, as far as you know? A. They all knew Jack. He had a lot of friends. Q. Were there many officers from the Dallas Police Department who were regular patrons of the Carousel? A. I saw, you know, a few of them, at times I vould be in the Carousel, would be up there after hours, you employee of Jack Ruby's. What kind of an after-hours party was Jack King about? a I don't know. I didn't even po. tO aT t donated $5.00 to buy one of the tickets. 0. Was this at a time when there a curfew Osed on the drinking? A. I think the party was going to be at the iday on Central in one of the banquet rooms. 406 Q. Do you know whether or not Jack had many of these after-hour parties? A. No. No. That was the only one I ever knew Q. And you had never heard that he had a habit these after-hours kind of parties and what kind of throwing of party it may have been? A. No. He said it was for one of the girls th was pregnant and he was doing this here to help her and he was going to give her the money. 0. There is an individual gambler in town by t name of Johnny Eli Stone? A. Johnny Stone, yeah. 0. Do you know Mr. Stone? A. Yes’. Q. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby had an relationship with Mr. Stone? A. He probably knew him. 0. I take it Mr. Stone was also a bookmaker? A. Yes; sir. Q. During the period of time in which you have been in Dallas you have been involved in some kind of spor betting over the years? A. I bet on football, yes. Q. Would you say that you, over the years, wo know people involved in the gambling business? 407 A. Yes. 0. And if Jack Ruby had been involved in either cepting bets, placing bets or acting as a epee of bets x anyone would it be a fair statement that you would Obably at least hear some of that information? A. Yes, I would have heard about it and I never i. 0. In 1961, there was a lawsuit that attracted 1¢ attention in Dallas, a businessman by the name of Yonough was sued by the Tropicana Casino for about Or $90,000.00. A. I don't anything about it. 0. That never came to ae attention at all? A. No. 0. You indicated that one of the individuals t you met in Las Vegas and heard for a long time was ny Binyon? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Binyon was a part of Dallas for quite a J period of time and then moved to Las Vegas? A. Yes. Q. Was there any reason associated with the ling business that you heard that occasioned Mr. Binyon ilove to Las Vegas? A. I think one of the reasons he probably moved 408 was when the town got closed up, why, he went to Vega: there you know. : : Q. That would have been in the late '40s in the time period you were discussing before as to Mr. Wilson the administration? coming and changing ; A. Yes. That was in '46, I think, he went oug to Vegas. Q. Do you know an individual in Los Angeles by the name of Michael Shore? A. NO SL). ID Alex Gruber? A. Alex Gruber? Q. Gruber, G-r-u-b-e-r. A. No, Six. 0. Erwin Weiner? A. Noa ois: Q. Allen Dorffman. A. No7iSir, 0. Barney Baker? A. NOy oo ti Q. You had mentioned a stripper who worked fo Jack Ruby by the stage name of Jada? A. Yes. Q. She was in New Orleans originally? - |409 A I think she came from New Orleans, yes. Q. I take it you had not seen her or heard of her in New Orleans prior to her coming to Dallas? A. I don't recall. you know, she probably worked on Bourbon Street, and the next thing I knew she was working here in Dallas and someone said she was from New Orleans, and she was married to some boy by the name of )Junior there or something, you know. Q. From New Orleans? A. Yes, 2ix0< Q. Was Junior supposed to have any organized srime ties or connections that you are aware of? A I don't know. Q. Do you know an individual who ran some clubs -n New Orleans by the name of Harold Tannenbaum? A. Nov2esing 0. We have talked about Jack Ruby's relationship ith the Dallas Police Department, and you indicated that on t least one occasion which you had been to the Carousel that here were some individuals you recognized from -- A. The vice squad, yes, sir. Q. Any particular individuals' names that you ecall? A. No», Sitj. Tndonstitecaliew Allat knew was they fre -- you know how officers stand out, detectives, you know. 44-105 0 - 79 - 27 410 — Ruby shot Lee Harvey Oswald what Q. When Jack reaction of the people you knew was your reaction and the who knew Jack Ruby very well? well A. I thought he was crazy. it something that surprised you or Q. Was you that Jack Ruby had done it? pesee it entered my mind a lot of ways, you A. Well, know. Well, he has got to be a crazy, or I wasn't Just a ese things went through my surprised, you know. mind. Where were you when you first heard that Jack Q. Ruby had --~ A. Passing by my television. I was going through the den, and they said something about Oswald had and I looked back, and, of course, I thought I been shot, saw the natural thing, you know. Then I found out it was, you know, a replay. Q. What was the first thing you did when you sa that? A. I think I hollered at my wife. I said, "Hey they have killed Oswald here," you know. You know, hell, you holler -- it looked like the real thing to me when I first saw it. I am going around telling everybody I saw it 411 first, you know, boom, boom, boom. And they said, "Well, that was a re-broadcast back," you know. When you and your wife went to speak with Jack Ruby did you ever why he did it? A. No - 0. You weren't curious to ask that kind of question? A. No. You know, hell, you are spellbound. i know, you don't have words to Say to somebody and you don't know what to say, you know. Q. We had talked about Cuba and Mr. Matthews working in Cuba and Mis2 McWillie working in Cuba. A. Did you ever discuss with Mr. McWillie who he worked for in Cuba or what kind of business he had. A. No, sir? Q. Did you ever discuss with him the name of Santo Trafficante? A. No; Siz Q. Did Mr. Trafficante's name ever come up when yOu were discussing anything with Mr. Marcello, any of the Marcello's? A. No, sir. 0. You have no idea whether or not any of the Marcello family is acquainted with Mr. Trafficante? 412 A. Noy S12 Q. We had discussed just very briefly Sheriff Decker. What was your relationship with Mr. Decker? A. Like a son. Q. I wonder if you could just tell us how that relationship developed and just characterize it for us? A. Well, you know, ever since I was a little boy, why, he knew of our family and he knew the Italian families and everybody loved Decker. Decker made a lot of friends with a lot of people. Decker never had any problems with the Italian families here. As I grew up and knew of Decker, and | just like grew up with him, you know, and I guess the man loved me and I loved him. I love Mrs. Decker. I would go down to the courthouse and I would always make it a point to go by and holler at him, sit down and talk to him, type of thing here, so that's it come about you know. Q. We had discussed Ralph Prestridge. You indicated that you first knew Mr. Prestridge because he was a nephew of another individual -- A. Loyce Green. 1D How did you know Mr. Green? A. All of my life. You know, raised here in 413 Dallas. I had been in the beer business since 1938, So from 1938, the year I got out of high school I bought a beer joint, and so from that time on, why, I had met a lot of seople in my lifetime. Q. You never had any business relationship with 4r. Green? A. (Shakes head.) 0. We discussed the Oswald shooting. We didn't liscuss anything of the assasSination of President Kennedy. Where were vou when that news first came on? A. I was driving in my car when I first heard hat Q. Do you recall where you were? A. No, I don't. On my way to the place or omething when I heard that. Q. And what was your reaction when you heard hat? A. Well, it scared me to death, you know. Q. Did you have any feeling that that kind of vent could have happened in this city or -- A Well, I guess it could have happened where, you know. It could have happened anywhere, but, mu know, my God, it is a shock when I heard about it, the ‘esident getting killed, you know. 414 We have asked a lot of questions today about Q. have been associated, at least, in the various people who gambling and sometimes with being in "in public mind with activities", and you have told us how you organized crime have known these people and all of that. If Jack Ruby were associated in any kind of crime activity would it be your belief that you organized heard something as to his connections of all of would have the people that you know? A. Just off the record. Can we do this off the record? I want to ask you something. MR. HORNBECK: All right. We can take this statement off the record. (Discussion off the record.) MR. HORNBECK: We are back on the record, and we had paused for Mr. Campisi to ask me my definition of organized crime, and I gave Mr. Campisi a definition that includes legislative, state and federal organized crime definition, and also a popular public perception of organized] crime as an outgrowth of the Sicilian Mafia, and then Mr. esti indicated to me what his view of organized crime is, and we decided that we would put that on the record. BY MR. HORNBECK: Q. So if you would just repeat what you have told Mr. Purdy and myself about whether or not if we 415 individually wanted to act as bookmakers in this city, whether we could have your interpretation of organized crime. A. I think anyone who wants to become a bookmaker, 16 years old, 15 years old, if he wants to get him a telephone and get his own customers and has his own bankroll, and if he has got the money he can go ahead and book and all he has got to worry about is the police. He doesn't have to answer to anyone else about it, nobody coming and muscling him or telling him that % has got to do this or do that. And I don't think that has ever happened in Dallas, Texas. Q. So yea tawe saying in the period of the '50s, 1960's, that if an individual wanted to be a bookmaker there was no person or group that would either prevent him from being a bookmaker, take a cut from his bookmaking operation in order for him to operate? A Exactly right. Q. It is customary in the testimony portions of the ee hearings for a witness to have a five-minute period in which the witness can discuss whatever is on the witness's mind in terms of questions that have been asked and the subject matter which has been raised. So at this time in this deposition I am going to give you the opportunity to make a statement, if you wish, 416 concerning the investigation, your thoughts on that, thoughts on Mr. Ruby or any of your thoughts with regard to the questions that have been asked or the publicity that you have ee tes or anything else that is related to the particular deposition and events that have surrounded Dallas. So if there is anything you would like to say, Mr. Campisi, we would be happy to place that in the record also. THE WITNESS: Hold this a minute... Can you hold up a minute? MR. HORNBECK: snYes, gwe can. (Discussion off the record.) MR. HORNBECK: Mr. Campisi has indicated that he is satisfied with the questions and answers in the deposition and doesn't have anything to add other than the fact that Jack Ruby is crazy. THE WITNESS: Now, may I say something to put on the record? Are you satisfied from what I have told you? MR. HORNBECK: Yes, sir. SHE WITNESSs«) sThat Seite. (Whereupon the deposition concluded atri2e20 p.m.8 417 Se a a a eles | eae.” “ene, Fieman> at I, GARLIN ATTAWAY, a Notary Public in and fer Harris County, Texas, being the Notary Public before whom the aforegoing sworn testimony of JOSEPH CAMPISI was taken, do hereby certify that the witness was first duly sworn by me to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that the above and foregoing is a true and correct transcript of said testimony. Given under my hand and Seal of office on this the a7 2x day of May, 1978. «t— (x- Garlin Attaway, Notary Gane in and for Harris County, nea | 418 iv. James Henry Dolan Biographical Summary (924) According to an FBI report,(1/83) James Henry Dolan was born October 25, 1914, in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. In the 1930’s, he left school and worked for a year in a California hotel. In 1938, he returned to Cedar Rapids and worked for his brother-in-law in a food business. In 1941 and 1942, Dolan was employed as a structural iron worker. He reportedly did some boxing as a youth and was associated with people in the boxing profession. He served in the U.S. Army from August 1, 1942, to December 21, 1945, and received an honorable discharge. He moved to Phoenix, Ariz., in November or December of 1950 and established his first permanent address at 4045 North Fifth Street. While in Phoenix, Dolan claimed self-employment at the Jefferson Street Gym. Dolan left Phoenix in the spring of 1951 and moved to the Denver area where, on May 1, 1951, he rented a cabin at Rosedale Ranch, Evergreen, Colo. On January 9, 1952, Dolan pled guilty in the U.S. District Court in Denver to impersonating a Federal officer. He received a 5-year suspended sentence and was placed on probation. (1184) (925) It was subsequently disclosed that Dolan had violated his probation by “rigging” a poker game in Denver and resorting to violence. On October 3, 1953, a probation violation warrant was issued, and Dolan was arrested in Chicago on October 5, 1958, by FBI agents. At the time of his arrest, Dolan was reportedly em- ployed for the American Television Company in Chicago.(1785) (926) On November 2, 1953, Dolan’s probation was revoked, and he was ordered to serve 5 years in prison, with a 3-year probationary sentenceto follow imprisonment. He was incarcerated at the U.S. Penitentiary at Leavenworth, Kans., until October 1954. He was then transferred to the Federal Correctional Institution at Seago- ville, Tex., from which he was released on February 21, 1956.(7786) He was placed on probation under the supervision of a U.S. probation officer in Dallas, Tex., until September 25, 1959. (1187) (927) Following Dolan’s release from prison, he was employed for @ brief period by Windy City Distributors in Chicago. In 1956, he moved to Dallas, Tex., and was employed by the Rush Rug Co., 4729 Maple Avenue, Dallas. (1188) (928) In 1957, he was employed by Sears, Roebuck & Co. in Dallas and by Paymaster Co. (check protectors). From 1958 to 1961, Dolan was employed as the Dallas representative of the American Guild of Variety Artists (AGVA). After leaving AGVA, he was employed for a brief period as a car salesman at a used-car lot owned by Nick Cas- cio.* (7189) After this, Dolan was reportedly employed as a traveling salesman for an unidentified company.(2/90) In 1961, Dolan’s attor- ney in Dallas indicated Dolan was employed by an unidentified whole- sale flower concern. (7192) j (929) While Dolan was in Dallas, he resided at 101 North Edgefield and, in 1968, at 5509 Caladium. (1193) In June 1969, he was reportedly *Oascio is described by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms as @ “traveling criminal” whose specialties are planning large burglaries and rob- beries and acting as a fence. (1190) 419 residing in Chicago at 423 Wrightwood. residing with his brother in Glenview, (1194) In October 1969, he was Ill. (1195) (930) Dolan’s aliases have included Jim de Lare, James Harry Dolan, Jim Dolan, J immy Dolan, James Bradley, and “Hamily.” (931) legal Activities —Dolan has been most notorious hoodlums who resided jin described as one of the two Dallas. (1796) An informant described him as a strong-arm man who had cante.* (7197) Dolan reportedly traveled been employed by Traffi- throughout southeastern and midwestern United States and had nume throughout these areas, (1198) rous underworld contacts (932) His specialties included armed robbe blers, and houses of prostitution, confidence ry of bookmakers, gam- rackets.(1799) Dolan had also, on occasion, swindles, and shakedown A source familiar with union activities reporprofessed to be a gambler. which Dolan participated was in almost regulted that a poker game in ar session at the AGVA offices. (7200) (933) Dolan was also associated with book report states that the primary bookmaking making in Dallas. A 1962 directed by John Eli Stone, Albert Meadows operation in Dallas was (1201) The report lists Dolan among those who and Sherman F ranklin. with this group and especially with Mead were “closely associated ows and Little,” who “in addition to gambling themselves extensivel or collection men whenever asked.” (1202) y, act as strong-arm men In 1961 it was reported that Dolan was engaged in “booking” with Bobby Chapman. (1203) John ny Ross Patrono and (934) On December 2, 1949, Dolan was investigation and subsequently released held by Illinois police for without charges being filed. (1204) On July 30, 1951, Dolan surrendere Denver to face charges of impersonating d to the U.S. Marshal in a Federal officer—he had been nvolved in impersonating Internal Reve nue Service agents. Anthony Jolossacco, who was described as a “kno wn gambler, burglar, and ex- sonvict,” was suspected of “fingering” the victim for Dolan in the mpersonation ploy.(1205) (Colossacco has also been described as an ssociate of the Smaldone Gang, who are ctivities in the Denver area.) Dolan was alleged to control gambling January 9, 1952, and placed on probation. convicted on this charge on (1206) 935) In 1952, Dolan was reportedly invol ame in Denver and had resorted to viole ved in a “rigged” poker he victim of the scheme. (1207 ) nce, threatening the life of 936) On July 11, 1951, Denver polic Jonley, Joseph R. Snell and Sidney Nevele arrested Raymond James racetrack swindle in Denver. Dola eff on charges of operating n was reportedly involved in (1208) On July 30, 1951, Dolan surr endered to the district attor- ey’s office in Denver on the same char ge.(1209) He was imprisoned rom 1953 to February 21, 1956. 937) In March 1959, Dolan was repo articipating in plans to rob a bank rtedly in Hot Springs, Ark., messenger at Pearl, Miss. (12/0) 938) Dolan was employed at AGV A *quainted with the union considered from 1958 to 1961. A source it “a racketeer proposition.” *Trafficante was a leading organized crime figure operating out of Florida. 420 (1211) The source stated “he did not doubt Dolan may have used his position for extra income by requiring payotis from band leaders and persons seeking entertainers.” (12/2) (939) On January 16, 1961, Dolan, George Fuqua, and Betty Lee Johnson were arrested by the highway patrol near Biloxi, Miss. (1213) They were charged with violation of the federal Firearms Act (carry- ing a concealed weapon), possession of stolen property and possession of burglary tools. On January 18, 1961, Dolan and Johnson pled guilty to the firearm violation and were fined. Dolan pled not guilty to possession of burglary tools and was released on bond.(1214) Dolan subsequently entered a guilty plea on October 18, 1963, and received a 5-year suspended sentence. (940) On February 2, 1961, Dolan was apprehended in Dallas when leaving his home with George Everett Thomas, a “notorious Dallas police character.” (7215) There is no indication whether charges were filed. (941) On February 16, 1961, Dolan was arrested by the Dallas police for breaking into a pay telephone. (1216) (942) On March 2, 1961, 1t was reported that three men entered the Melvin Sugarek Ranch, near Beeville, Tex., and held up a poker game, escaping with $26,000. (7277) On February 28, 1961, Fuqua had checked into the Shamrock Motel in Dallas. A large gathering was held there after the robbery; it included Fuqua, Dolan, Charles David Boyd, Bob Fletcher, Eddie Tom Greer, Thurman Giles, Billy Ray Gimes, Garen Insley, Jerry Gordon and an Anderson.(12/8) On March 7, 1961, Dolan surrendered to the Texas Rangers in connection with the robbery.(/279) In May 1961, the Beesville grand jury returned no bill of indictment against Dolan. (1220) (943) On April 4, 1962, Dolan was observed in the company of Eddie Tom Green, who was described by Dallas police intelligence “as a person who, according to their informants, specializes in armed rob- beries of prostitutes, gamblers, and bootleggers and is known to as- soclate with Dolan and known Dallas hijacker George Fuqua.” (1221) On April 25, 1962, an informant advised that Dolan had just returned to Dallas. He would not state where he had been, but did say he was then in the “fire business,” meaning arson. (1222) On October 10, 1962, it was reported that Dolan had participated in a robbery of a club financed by Sherman Franklin Little. (1223) (944) On April 17, 1963, it was reported that Dolan had been ar- rested by the sheriff’s office in Baton Rouge, La.(1224) Dolan and Glen Ernest Burnett were reportedly acting in a suspicious manner at the Holiday Inn in Baton Rouge and were suspected of being in pos- session of a stolen telephone truck.(1225) On April 18, 1963, it was determined that Dolan was not identified with either person believed to be In possession of the truck. (1226) (945) On May 10, 1963, a Cadillac was stopped in New Orleans which was driven and owned by Dimitry Saik,* who operated a bar on Bourbon Street. Dolan was also in the car. (1227) On May 21, 1968, *Saik frequented the Town and Country Restaurant owned by Joseph A. Poretto, who was an associate of Carlos Marcello. 421 it was reported that Dolan had a “large score leans area by a “Carlos” (last name unkn ” set up in the New Or- own) on May 26, 1963. Eugene Ruben McCroske , which was to occur Luna* were also to be involved. (1228) y and Carl Angelo de (946) On June 1, 1963, Dolan reportedly meet “Carlos” and plan the robbery, sched was in Shreveport, La., to uled for June 3, 1963. (1229) Dolan was unable to contact De Luna and McCr was postponed again, and Dolan returned oskey, so the robbery to Dallas. (1230) (947) It was reported that Dolan attempted David Fred Hagler and Robert Paul Winters to gain the assistance of (1231) Dolan learned, however, that the plann for a June 10 robbery. to the police, so it was again postponed. (1232 ed robbery was known (948) On June 24, 1963, Dolan was arres ) police.(2233) Dolan was charged with ted by the New Jersey possession of a concealed weapon and auto theft.(7234) He was arrai Kast Windsor Township Municipal Court andgned on July 23, 1963, in (1255) Dolan pled not guilty and was released on $4,000 bond. indicted on August 2, 1963. (1236) (949) On July 29, 1963, Dolan was arres Motel’s private club in Dallas for assaulting ted at the Executive Inn Bentley. (7237) On J uly 30, 1963, Dolan a security guard, C. F. was charged with aggravated assault of a police officer. (7238) On July identified Dallas attorney appeared at the 81, 1963, Dolan and an un- attempted to get the charge dropped. (1239 Dallas police station and airtel, the Dallas Police Department plan ) According to an FBI ned to press charges. (1240) (950) On September 10, 1968, Dolan was found not guilty of a dis- orderly conduct charge in East Windsor Township Municipal Court, New Jersey. (1241) It was reported that Dolan was free on approxi- mately $12,000 bail on various charges in New J ersey. (1242) {951) On October 18, 1963, Dolan appe ared Gulfport, Miss., and entered a guilty plea in the circuit court in sion of burglary tools.(1243) He received to a charge of posses- “ence and was placed on probation for a d-year suspended sen- 5 years. (1244) (952) On November 15, 1968, Dolan was Jn November 21, 1963, he was seen by FBI observed in Dallas. (1245) “eportedly operated by a Dallas bookmake agents entering a tire shop, r, T. B. Turns, as a book. naking establishment. (7246) On December ested by the Dallas police, along with 9, 1968, Dolan was ar- Jess Raymond Bridwell and Xobert Elmer Woolverton, at the Shera ton uspected of planning a jewel robbery (7248 Hotel. (1247) They were airs of crooked dice, two unsigned ¢ashi ) and were found with 36 ers checks bearing the head- ag of a nonexistent Billings, Mont., bank, and a list of 10,000 persons, long with their wagering limits. (1249) 953) On December 29, 1963, Dolan was or arson, to be served at the Kansas given a 1- to d-year sentence State Penitentiary. He was re- eased on October 24, 1967. (1250) On July 17, ppear in the U.S. District Court in Atlanta, 1972, Dolan failed to aterstate transport of stolen property. (1257 Ga., on a charge of ) *De Luna was a Kansas City hoodl um. 422 Organized Crime Connections states: (954) Connections with Santos Traficante—An FBI report In late 1960 or 1961, George Fuqua and James Henry Dolan went to Miami, Florida, where Dolan introduced Fuqua to Santos Trafficante, Jr., through Trafficante’s associate, Milo Bell. The purpose of the contact was to ascertain if Bell and Trafficante could use Dolan and Fuqua in the “collection” business or as enforcers for Trafficante. Trafficante allegedly told these two Dallas people that he wanted a “bolito man knocked off and roughed up,” as this man was holding out on his collections and owed Trafficante some money. Dolan. and Fuqua were told by Trafficante that their fee for doing this would be whatever money they would take from the bolito man after roughing him up. This bolito man was pointed out to Fuqua and Dolan by Bell, who also acquainted thei with the man’s habits and activities. Dolan and Fuqua subsequently “knocked off” this man and got about. $7,000. About two weeks after this, at Trafficante’s request, a second bolito man was pointed out and “set up” by Bell and he, too, was robbed and beaten by Dolan and Fuqua. (1252) (955) The only other indication of any association between Dolan and Trafficante occurred in February 1961 when Dolan was arrested in Dallas for breaking into a pay telephone. At the time of his arrest, Dolan was placing a call to Marlowe Bell, who is identical to Milo Bell, and a close associate of Trafficante. (7253) (956) Connections with Carlos Marcello—tIn March 1963, it was learned that Dolan had been on a trip to New Orleans and Mississippi. It was said that Dolan, while in New Orleans, had spoken to Carlos” (last name unknown, possibly Marcello), “a big-time New Orleans hoodlum,” who told him that the FBI was checking on him and show-_ ing his picture around. (1254) (957) As stated previously, on May 10, 1963, Dolan had been stopped by the New Orleans police in the company of Dimitry Saik, who was said to frequent the Town and Country Restaurant owned by Joseph A. Poretto, an associate of Marcello.(1255) On May 21, 1963, it was reported that Dolan had a “large score” set up in the New Orleans area by a “Carlos” (last name unknown), to take place during the week beginning on May 26, 1963.(1256) On June 1, 1963, Dolan re- portedly was in Shreveport, La., to meet this “Carlos” regarding the robbery. (1257) | (958) The FBI contacted several informants who stated it was doubtful Marcello would set up a “score” for Dolan. They did state, however, that Nofio Pecora possibly might assist Dolan. (1258) Pecora was 2 Marcello associate who operated the Tropical Tourist Court in New Orleans.(7259) On February 1. 1963, a New Orleans inform- ant had observed George Fuqua at Martin’s Restaurant across the street from the Tropical Tourist Court.(1260) A 1964 FBI report which listed Nofio Pecora’s known criminal associates included the names of Dolan and George Fuqua. (1267) (959) Other Connections.—There are several indications that Dolan was associated with organized crime individuals during the early 423 1950’s when he was in Denver, Colo. Anth was involved with Dolan in the impersonat ony Colossacco allegedly ion case. (1262) Colassacco was an associate of the Smaldone Gang in Denve known to have been at least acquainted r.(7263) Dolan was Fratianno,(1264) a known west coast organwith James “The Weasel” ized crime figure. Stephen Sambur, a Los Angeles gambler and hoodl Dolan and Colassacco conferring at the um, observed Fratianno, Denver. (1265) Brown Palace Hotel in Association with Jack Ruby (960) When the FBI interviewed Dolan known Ruby since 1957.(1266) Dolan statein 1963, he stated he had when Dolan worked for AGVA.(1267) d he saw a lot of Ruby on “several occasions.” (7268) Dolan statedHe also visited Ruby’s club club in over a year and he last saw Ruby he “had not been in Ruby’s Town and Country Restaurant in downtownabout 2 months ago at the (961) When the committee interviewed Dallas.” (2269) Dolan, he again admitted knowing Ruby. (1270) He could recall two specific incidents that con- cerned Ruby and AGVA. The first arose former to date a customer. While the perfo when ‘Ruby wanted a per- rmer did not want to do SO, she refused to file a complaint. The second Joe Peterson, the Inanager of a group that occurred when Ruby hit *Bottom’s Up.” (1271) Breck Wall ran the performed a show called Commission testimony, confirmed Dolan’s group and, in his Warren account of Ruby’s having punched Peterson. Wall added, however, that the AGVA representa- tive, James Dolan, sided with Ruby in the ‘Jack Ruby and Jim Dolan took the Show dispute.(2272) He stated, perform the show.” (1273) over and made our kids (962) Dolan was also associated with R. D. oodlum associate of Jack Ruby (1274) who Matthews, another Dallas visitor to Dolan’s AGVA. office.(1275) Matt was said to be a frequent n collecting a “bonus” from a nightclub hews also assisted Dolan Ark. (7276) On May 29, 1963, Dallas polic owner in Hot Springs, e intelligence advised that Jolan had recently been in contact with R. D. Matthews,(1277) al- egedly discussing the need for $2,00C to gain late, George Fuqua. (1278) the release of their asso- 963) An investigation of telephone calls iverett Thomas indicated a call was made made by Dolan and George Agency in Chicago, (1279) which is operated to the American Bonding gure in organized crime and the Teamsters. by Irwin Weiner, a major Jctober 26, 1963, and Weiner has admitted Ruby called Weiner on tuby. (1280) previous contacts with ‘reatment by the Warren Commission 964) Dolan was interviewed by the FBI vith Jack Ruby, (1287) but was not questionedregarding his association regarding his organized 965) Dolan was referred to in\two other ewel Brown stated that Dolan had contactedFBI interviews. In one, 1at she work for Ruby her in 1959, requestin at the Sovereign Club. (7282) Brown worked or Ruby for 7 months, but quit as a resul t of a disagreement regard- 4 5 i \ ' 424 ing Ruby’s advances toward her.(1283) At the request of AGVA, she returned to the club and completed her contract. (1284). (966) In the second interview, Lillian McCardell stated that Bea- trice Arnell had informed her that Ruby had slapped her at the Carousel. (/285) Arnell went to the Dallas Police Department to re- port the assault and was told to forget it.(1286) She then went to Dolan and reportedly was told by Dolan “to forget the incident be- eause Ruby had too much on the Dallas Police Department for such a trivial charge.” (1287) (967) As stated previously, Dolan was also referred to in Breck Wall’s Warren Commission testimony. (1288) (968) There is no indication that any Warren Commission staff member interviewed Dolan. He did not testify before the Commission and there is no indication that the Warren Commission was aware of the extent of Dolan’s criminal activities. Other Information (969) When Dolan was in Phoenix, Ariz., in 1951, he was observed in the company of James Bradley Lee.(1289) Lee is identical with Eugene Hale Brading, a.k.a. James Braden.(/290) It was the inform- ant’s opinion that Brading and Victor Periera might have conveyed to Dolan the idea that he could operate successfully as a “con man.” (1297) When FBI agents attempted to interview Brading, he refused to an- swer any questions regarding himself or his associates.(1292) Braden eae for questioning in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. (970) Interview with Dolan by House Select Committee on Assas- sinations staff. 425 Kennedy SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS NAME | chavs James nsc tedHenry Dolan taco facdeacivaba tontebeac tele Date 3/9/78 | re ae hdvess Atlanta Federal Penitentigyyce [he ASRS. SA PAREN RealAge? Diy Same aise hisSeDD Lee cal ol ae ae Interview: Prior to our interview with Dolan, an inmate at the federal penitentiary in Atlanta, Georgia, I conferred with his attorney Roger Thompson as to the nature and scope of the subject matter tobe covered. Unfortunately, Dolan had not been explicitly told the identity of the persons coming to visit him and was a bit apprehensive about an interview. However, once the situation was explained to him and we had an opportunity to speak with his attorney, he was Var ect on se tive. | Dolan ey an ex-fighter (light heavyweight) who had served time prior to his obtaining a job in Dallas as the AGVA representative in aperoxinatete 1957. He stated that he had no connections in getting the job and had an attorney satisfy himself that he would ae violating the Landum-Griffin Act by accepting the position. 7 Basically, he was concerned with enforcing minimum “Standards for entertaining employees in the Dallas area which included the strip-tease performers. As a consequence of his position, he became acquainted with Jack Ruby whom he described as a poor businessman and "bully .” Interviewer ss} f# (Signature) W. Hornbeck (Typed) : Date Transcribed Rife 3/14/78 44-105 0 - 79 - 28 426 incidents caused Dolan to dislike Ruby. Two specific occurred as a result of Ruby trying [Oma The first problem contract of a Breck Wall show called "Bottcms.Up,” cancel the musical-style review. During the course a fairly well-known voices and tempers became raised and Ruby of arbitration, punched Joe Peterson ("a Little fairy.");, Supposedly suddenly of Dolan. | on behalf Dolan, this one-punch fight was typical of According to had a reputation for "picking his spots" and was Ruby, who especially around his club where a lot of a real "bully," Dallas policemen “hung out." second encounter involved a complaint by one of The who alleged Ruby ordered her to "date" some Ruby’s strippers customers, which is against union policy. Unfortunately, of the did not file a formal complaint, so that said Dolan, the girl the union was unable to take any formal action. a poor business sense and made some unwise Ruby had he was "booking" legitimate acts and thus went decisions when in order to make money. In contrast to the into "strippers" who ran a good operation, Ruby's Club did not have Weinsteins reputation, although Dolan did not have any informa- a great tion re gambling or prostitution. As to AGVA problems, Dolan was not aware that Ruby "go over his head" or even knew union leaders. Although would Ruby frequently talked about his days in Chicago and implied an association with people from his neighborhood who had 427 chiminal gained a reputation as part of the Carnival element. Dolan could recall no specific problem involving the use of amateur strippers as the problem was tightly controlled by the union and each club was permitted one show per week, using non-union talent provided that the winner was given a future union contract. Dolan had no contract with Eva Grant and thought that the Vegas Club did not use "strippers," fay As to Ruby's slaying of Oswald, Dolan believed that 2. had an ego drive to impugn people, was an extreme "police buff," had grandiose schemes, wanted to "be a hero” and Phaught he could "get by" with killing Oswala since he Fad made good police contacts. In sum, Ruby was a "sick man." Hearsay was that Ruby took "uppers" as he was ex- tremely aggressive. Another common story was that Ruby had been run out of Chicago by the mob, although Dolan had not heard that Ruby was mob~-connected in Dallas. Socially, Ruby liked to associate with anyone who was a "figure." Dolan acknowledged that he was very familiar with the gambling "scene" in Dallas which he described as mostly "free- lance" with no mob control. He knew that Civello was at Appalachia in 1957 but had no real organization of which Dolan was aware. Ruby was not a part of the gambling picture in Dallas and Dolan could not conceive of Ruby being connected to the mob, as he was too erratic and closely associated with policemen all the time. 428 over the list of names of Ruby associates We went upon some of them. Certain names and Dolan eee and Dorfman he recognized as Chicago like Baker, Weiner officials but whom he did not know personally. union Willie was friendly with Ruby and was a "man Mc although usually he was hurting for money. about town" His only real "connection" was with Benny Benion 1940's. Dolan cnddrstriba that Ruby had lent McWillie in the and that the trip to Cuba in 1959 was to collect the money sums advanced. R. D. Matthews was another well-known gambler, probably known to Ruby, since he frequented the "joints" of Dallas. Joe Campisi was a familiar name in Dallas as a Dolan buteur had no information as to his gambling restaurant or book-making. L. Hunt was known as a gambler who had gotten "taken" H. in some card games but Dolan had no specific information. knew Kirkwood, Bonds, and Jack Todd but could not He also relate any particular association with Ruby. Jim Braden, or Brading, was unfamiliar to Dolan until Phoenix and James Brady Lee, in connection with I mentioned some boxing promotion. Dolan stated that he would be happy to identify a photo but he could not be sure that Lee was the person also known as Braden. We had as the to leave pre-dinner "lock-up" ritual was 429 being observed but Dolan and his counsel indicated that he would try and refresh his memory and would contact us if he had additional information. I stated that we would provide a letter indicating that Dolan had been cooperative if necessary. 430 KENNEDY INVESTIGATION INTERVIEW SCHEDULE Identifying Information: . James Henry Dolan Date 3/9/78 ed OTE Name Address Atlanta Federal PenitentiaryPlace_ Same’ a _ City/State Atlanta, Georgia ‘Telaphone Date of Birth Mors Social Security Spouse | ne Children . Physical Description: Height ' _ Color Eyes efany {>*3 Het. Sie. : . Special Characteristics__ Eth...c Group Personal History: a. Present Employment: Inmate , Inmate an AGUA was an , was representative AGUA representatiy Address Atlanta Federal Penitentiary, Atlanta, Georgia ‘Telephone - b. Criminal Record 1. Arrests 2. Convictions Additional Personal Information: Middl a. Relative(s): Name Knew Ruby, etc. Address b. Area frequented: Atlanta, Dallas c. Remarks: Investigator John W. Hornbeck Date Typed 3/13/7718 Rife Form =$4-B "| 9o a he te 431 v. Alexander Phillip Gruber Biographical Summary (971) Alexander Phillip Gruber was born February 1, Chicago. (1294) In the early 1930’s, he moved to New York. In1911, in Febru- ary 1942, he went to the Los Angeles area,(/295) with a in Chicago in between.(7296) He was married in New Yorkshort stay two children.(1297) Eva Grant told the Warren Commission and had Gruber’s nickname was “Musty.”(1298) Gruber, now retired, that previously employed as a scrap metal dealer in the Los was Angeles- Burbank area. (1299) | The Committee's Investigation (972) The materials reviewed by the committee gave no indication of Gruber’s financial or social position, nor of his politic al forcement connections. The committee obtained a copy ofor law en- criminal record from the FBI, which showed a number of theft-r Gruber’s arrests and dispositions in various jurisdictions. (1300) elated (973) Relationship with Ruby.—Alex Gruber told the FBI grew up in the same neighborhood as Jack Ruby, went that he school with him, and even lived with him for approximatelto grammar y a Chicago boarding house, when they were both about 1 year in old.(7301) Gruber told the committee that Ruby’s father lived 20 years neighborhood, although Ruby did not, that Ruby would hang in his his neighborhood, and that they became friends(7302) and around football games and boxing matches.(1303) Gruber would go to described his Chicago relationship with Ruby as “very close.” (7304) In Commission testimony Ruby had described Gruber as a “bad his Warren those days. * * *”(7305) Following his stint as Ruby’s roomma kid in Gruber moved to New York and lost contact with Ruby. te, (974) The time of Gruber’s next contact with Ruby is uncertain. In 1964, Gruber told the FBI that he saw Ruby in 1946 or 1949, when Gruber stopped in Dallas en route to Chicago. (1394) This social was apparently the sole motive for the Dallas side trip. In visit 1978, how- ever, Gruber told the committee that. he and another individual on the road selling pots and pans and that Dallas was one of were on their itinerary. (1307) When questioned by FBI agents immedi the stops following the assassination weekend, Gruber stated that ately he had taken this trip about 10 years prior, which would place it in 1953. all interviews Gruber has stated that Ruby and he had met (1308) In nightclub; he told the committee that he had stayed in at Ruby’s the club (and tn Dallas) for only a few hours. (1309) (975) Their next contact occurred about 2 weeks before sination when Gruber again went out of his way to visit Ruby the assas- in Dallas, shis time arriving from J oplin, Mo. Gruber told the FBI ae had been in New York attending a relative’s wedding in 1964 that and zone to Joplin to get information about a carwash facilit had then y.(1310 978, Gruber stated that he could not have gone to a wedding ) In ime, but admitted that he was in Joplin.(7311) Gruber said at that ‘ded to visit Ruby because J oplin was only 100 miles he de- Jallas.(1372) “I don’t know why I went there, really,” said from Gruber, “T n’t remember. I just went there.” (1313) 432 hu6) In 1964, Gruber said that he had stayed in Dallas for several ays, seeing Ruby a number of times, including one visit to the Carousel from 6 p.m. until closing.(1324) Yet in 1963, Gruber had told the FBI that he had been in Dallas only 1 night and part of the following day.(1315) When Gruber and Ruby did meet, they discussed past ex- periences in Chicago, Ruby’s business problems involving non-union dancers, Ruby’s problems with his sister, and Gruber’s possible involve- ment in a carwash facility.(13/6) (Ruby told the Warren Commission that Gruber had also tried to interest Sam Ruby in the carwash en- deavor.) (1317) Ruby asked if Gruber had any connections with the labor union (AGVA), which Gruber did not, (1318) and promised to send Gruber a dachshund puppy that he owned. (1379) While in Dallas on this trip, Gruber also visited (for the first time) Eva Grant, | who was hospitalized at the time. (7320) (977) Gruber called Ruby on the telephone at the Carousel on No- vember 17, 1963, at 9:28 p.m.(/321) This call lasted 8 minutes, and Gruber surmised that it involved the possible purchase of letters for the marquee signs at the Carousel from a Los Angeles company, (1322) — although Gruber’s recollection of the call was extremely limited. (1323) _ (978) Ruby called Gruber following the President’s assassination, at 2:37 p.m.(1324) Gruber stated that he received the call 20 minutes" after the assassination, (7325) but he must have meant 20 minutes after he learned of the event if the times are to coincide. This was one of the first calls made by Ruby that afternoon, and he was very upset. Gruber said Ruby sobbed on the telephone when speaking of the assassination and finally had to hang up, being unable to continue. In 1963, Gruber related this conversation as follows: Rusy. Did you hear what happened? Grouper. You mean the shooting of the President? _kusy. Yes, ain’t that a terrible thing. I’m all upset and my sister 1s hysterical. You don’t know this, Al, but I started all my programs with a patriotic number. I’m crying and I can’t talk to you anymore. (7326) In his 1964 FBI interview, Gruber mentioned that they had discussed the carwash business and the dog that Ruby was to send, before the news of the assassination was brought up. (7327) In 1978 he stated that only the dog was discussed. (/328) Telephone records indicate that the call only lasted 3 minutes, (7329) casting some doubt on Gruber’s fuller 1964 account. (979) Gruber had three subsequent contacts by mail with Ruby. The first involved the sending of a puppy to Gruber, which Ruby had in- structed Andrew Armstrong, a Carousel employee, to take care of while Ruby was in jail.(1330) The second was a letter which Gruber sent to Ruby several months after the Oswald shooting. (1331) This letter was missing from the Dallas police department files when the Committee examined them in 1978. Gruber had told the FBI that in the letter he expressed his sorrow over Ruby’s predicament. (7332) (986) The third mail contact was a letter from Ruby, postdated Feb- ruary 4, 1964. It had a return address of 505 Main St., Dallas. In this letter, Ruby acknowledged receipt of Gruber’s letter, thanked him for 't, mentioned the dog, and said he was sorry that Gruber had been 433 ~aused so much trouble as a result of the cal] 963.(1533) Ruby was ostensibly referring made to him November 22, uber, but there had also been an anon to the FBI’s questioning ymous telephone threat at 2:45 a.m. on November 25, 1963, at Grube r’s home, in which the caller tated “ask him [Gruber] if he likes livin’.” 981) The FBI also investigated anoth (1334) er alleged Ruby to Gruber alephone call on Sunday morning, Nove swald shooting. The FBI had received mber 24, 1963, prior to the info eles police department that the proprietor rmation from the Los An- ited (on November 26, 1963) that a man of a hamburger stand re- named Gruber had told him f such a call. (7335) The man supposedly said that Ruby had told him aat he was going to shoot Oswald. Possi ent was a reference to a Gruber-Ruby ble verification of the inci- acqu bly in Chicago. The proprietor had denie aintance “back East,” pos- 20ke to him on November 27, 1963, and d this story when the FBI although a different source ientioned the same basic story to the FBI, iation was at best third- or fourth-hand this second source’s infor- hearsay. Verification was ot conducted by the FBI. (1336) Gruber has denie ich an incident and of any weekend calls from d any knowledge of 1 Friday afternoon. (1337 ) Ruby besides the one 982) It is known that Eva Grant called Grube i¢ assassination to inquire about the dog and r within 10 days of to thank Gruber for his sit to the hospital, (7338) although Gruber had no recollection of us call. (1339) 83) Despite his relationship with Ruby, Grube r ) knowledge of Ruby’s Dallas associates or activi stated that he had ties, legal or other- ise.(1340) He has remarked that Ruby came from a fine family and id always been patriotic,(1341) although Grube uby to be interested in politics. (1342) r never considered reatment by the Warren Commission 84) The Warren Commission’s treatment of st cursory and without any focus, although Alex Gruber was at d Griffin wrote a memorandum that referred staff counsels Hubert to the investigation Gruber. (1343) Gruber himself was not questioned m. Alice by the Commis- Nichols,(1344) Ralph Panl,(7345) HymanRubinstein, 946) and George Senator (1347 ) said that they had never heard of m. Karl Ruby knew that Gruber and Jack Ruby had lived together in icago and that Ruby had called Gruber on November 22. (1348) leen Kaminsky also had heard ofthis phone tlier, Gruber was also mentioned in the Commicall.(7349) As noted ra Grant and Jack Ruby. (1350) ssion testimony of 35) Deposition of Gruber by House Select Commi ttee on Assas- ations staff. 434 SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS Wednesday, June 14, 1978 Room 420 United States Courthouse :ta “tI 4- in ov 312 Spring, Street Los Angeles, California cet) Examination of Alexander P. Gruber regarding the above- entitled matter was conducted in private conference, pursuant to notice, at 3:00 p.m. | i APPEARANCES: | DONALD A. PURDY, JR., ESO., Counsel, Select Committee on Assassinations, U. S. House of Revresentatives, i Washington, D. Cc. 29515. | | ALEXANDER P. GRUBER, in pro ver. ae Nee a se a ak SE ane: she nas mes MR. PURDY: We are about to begin a devosition before the Select Committee on Assassinations or une” U.S. House of Representatives. My name is Donald A, Purdy, Jr. I ama staff jcounsel. I am designated, pursuant t to House Resolution 222 il and the Committee Rule 4 as a designated counsel with rower ito take statements under oath. We are presently in the chambers of U. S. “Magistrate Wenetta S. Tassopulos in the United States Courthouse, 312 North Spring Street, Los Anaeles, tarstornsate Magistrate Tassonulos will now Swear the witness. MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: Would you state your name, i please, for the record? ie MR. GRUBER: Alexander Gruber. MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: How do you spell the last a é _ MR. GRUBER: G-r-u-b-e-r, MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: Thank you, Mr. Gruber. As indicated, I am a United States Magistrate. I am authorized, pursuant to 28 U. Ss. Code, Section 636 (a) 2 { : ‘and General Order 104 of this Court, which is the United 4 436 MR. GRUBER: It don't make no difference to me. I i don't even know what it is all about. MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: Do you mine to swear to 4- |Goa? Well, if you think -- ia | MR. GRUBER: Well, I will swear to tell the i truth. MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: All right, just a moment. | |Well, I will have to administer the oath, then, that you 00 will swear to tell the truth. | |Whereupon, | ALEXANDER GRUBER | was called as a witness herein and, having ! heen first duly | | sworn, was examined and testified as follows: MAGISTRATE TASSOPULOS: You may adjourn now to | || room 420 -- is that correct? -- and the deposition will take }vlace. | (Brief recess.) MR. PURDY: We are continuing the deposition now | iin | Room 420 of the United States Courthouse, | EXAMINATION | | BY MR. PURDY: Q I want to make sure that you understand the basic || | groundrules of the deposition. Do you understand that this |statement is voluntary? | A What is the matter? | Q Do you understand that this statement is voluntary? 437 Yes. Are you under subpoena at this tine? A Not that I know of. 4s Q Do you understand that you have a right to an attorney vresent and that you can ian bring in an attorney at any time? Do you understand that? & I suppose “MR. PURDY: so. Let I don't the know. record You are telling me. show that I am giving you i copy of our Committee Rules ‘ and House Resolutions 222, 433 | "and 760. The rule under which the deposition is taken is | Rule 4, : which is on vage 4 of this first section, and you | are welcome to read at this time 1 if you desire to. THE WITNESS: Now you are getting i me scared. I MR. PURDY: It is down there at the bottom left, page 4, THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. BY MR. PURDY: Have you read the rule and do you understand it? A Yes. Q The entire record of this deposition will be tran- scribed and we will send you a copy of it so that you can jmake any corrections you may desire. Okay? | A (Witness nods.) ‘ Q Would you indicate orally, so she can pick it up ‘on the tane, by saying "yes"? 438 1 | A Yes. Yes: 2 | fe) Finally, you understand that this deposition is 3 taken under the nenalties for verjury? | ‘| A Yes. | | Q Thank you. When did you first get to know Jack Ruby? | 6 A About 40 years ago. I don't know? : 7 | Q Back when you were a kid? | | , 3 | AgweYes | | a) This was growing up in Chicago? | 10 A Yes. | f Q You were hoth in the same neighborhood? | 2 | A I didn't know him growing up in Chicago. I knew | 3 |nem when he was about -- let us see -- about 17 years old. | i. Q How did you get to know him particularly well then? | 1s A Well, he came around the neighborhood. He didn't i live in our neighborhood. He came around our neighborhood and started hanging around there. His father lived in the neighborhood. id Q And had you known his father? 20 | A Yes. es Q Just as you would know the -- = A I knew his father better than I knew him. Ss 8) How did you get to know his father? | A His father was a carpenter. He hung around the neighborhood, too. He was a drunk, a nice old drunk. 439 everybody knew him. Papa Joe, they called him. Q Was he harmful or harmless? A He was harmless. Q When Jack Ruby came around, when he was about bly be did you become good friends with him at that time? A YGS; 71. Gia Q What kinds of things would you do together? A Go to foothall games and stuff like that, fights. Q Professional fights? A I am a svorts fan. Yes. Always have been. Q SO you were both big svorts fans? A I don't know about him. 1 know I was. He was a Pai ee, Q Referring to selling tickets? A Yes. Always -- always that I knew him, he was a scalper,. Q Was that because he was short of money or he just liked it? A Well, that is the way he made a living. Q That is the way he made a living when he was -- A Yes. He didn't work at that time, Q Okay. How did you make a living at that time? A I think I lived at home. I went to school. I had just got out of school. Q Was there any fighting in the neighborhood? / > A Well, we all went to fights. We used to fight a little. | | amateurs. Not him. Q He didn't fight? de A No. ia Q Was there any fighting among each other in the | neighborhood? . A Well, it is a rough neighborhood. My neighborhood | was called the bloody 20th, a rough neighborhood. Q Was Jack Ruby involved in fights in the neighborhood? A Jack Ruby didn't live in that’ neighborhood, Q Well, was he involved in fights in that neighborhood? A No. He was a docile person in them days. Q So you don't remember him ever being in fights in s | Chicago? See eee Er a A Nowino : Q Did he do any other activities besides scalping ‘i that you knew of? j 3) rs A Well, I left Chicago. | Q “When did you leave Chicago? A When I was about 18 years old. I went to New York. ; I stayed there and I got married there, lived there about j12 years Q Where did you go after New York? A Huh? Q Where did you go after New York? 44] A I think I came back to Chicago and ovened up a wrecking yard and I only stayed there about a vear or eight months or something. I didn't work out. de Q And then where did you go? A Out here. To Los Angeles? In the Army. You went in the Army? Yes. And you served out here? ro ans That was '42. I jumped all the way to '42. I was married then. Q After the Army, did you move to Los Angeles? A Yes. Well, I lived in Los Angeles hefore I went in the Army. My parents lived there since 1926. Q Where do you live now in Los Angeles? What is your present address? A 1016 North Orange Grove Avenue. x Is that in what section? A Los Angeles. a ts A I don't remember. 4e- | Q Did you go directly from Chicago to Dallas? | A’ No. We stopped in Dallas on the way to Chicago. :We stonped in Dallas on the way back; I didn't stop. fess oot Q Why did you go to Dallas before Chicago? It is not exactly on the way? ~o A Well, we had gone that way. We had gone that way |and I told the guy, “I know a guy here," and we stopped. Q So you didn't make a special trip to Dallas? A No. | Q Once you were in Dallas, you decided to call him? | & Hl A Yes. | Q You didn't call him before you went there? A No. 7 | Q Did you have any contact, either by phone or in ! 1 iene between 1931 and that visit? A No? no. Q Did you have any communication with any of Jack's | ;family between that time? | A No. The only one I knew was his father. i i Q You didn't know Earl or Eva or Sam? | A No. I knew Sam later. I met Sam -- let's see. TI i { think I met Sam in Dallas. I don't think I even knew him in | 447 Chicago. Q When would you have met Sam in Dallas, before or after the assassination? A Now that you mention it, I don't know where I met Sam. I don't think I met him in Dallas, even. I don't remember where I met him. In fact, if I bumred into him here, I wouldn't know him.-- any of Jack Ruby's family, except! ee Re his father. | Q What did you and Jack talk about when you visited | him in 1953? Di@ he tell you how things were going in Dallas? | A I didn't have much to -- I don't think I was in there t two hours at the most, an hour anda half. ‘We got ! nee eee eS Ee eS SSS ne -~ = + —aa= ee +as -- +. a nsw in a fight and that was it and we left. Q Was that the time he hit the three pneovle? A Yes. , coe Sew ae Se StS Q Was that unprovoked or -- A No, I think he was right. Personally, EB ’think he was right. He had this place where you go in and you buy “ set-ups and, say you took a girl with you and you were sitting there and these three guys were abusing the women and Jack told them -- Q Were these employees? A Jack was talking with us and he says, "See them three guys?" He says, "I have warned then already two times." Sl SS ee +tse So -= He ceeeds cae: wane aaeaes eaatae eeeen Sate says, "They go around and they grab guys' wives and girl 448 out of the seat and they dance with ei friends and pull them or not." He says, "T ain't going to tell even if they want to then it happened again. He says, “There them again." And and he went up and he started fighting with 4e- they go again,” ta them. wma ame eecemcties Yes. Now the second time when I was there, he 456 up his sister-in-law and I don't know if they were called or something, but she wouldn't tell him where Sammv WwW feuding was and he told -- he told her that the quy that told him about the laundromats was here and he had a better thing than de tn the laundromats. On the way through, I seen a bunch of cars standing in a line and I followed these cars. It looked like a movie drive-in and they were all goina in these quarter wash. You ™“ aw se) could -- you know, where you wash your car for a quarter. That never was out here either. So I walked up to a guy and he told me about it. He says -- he says, "I run this. I have this territory." So I savs, "Well, I am ate Calitoriia.* So he says, "Do you want to get the concession for these --" So anyway, he Ease me where they manufacture them | and I talked to the owner and he give me a bunch of -- what | do they call them? Booklets, anyway. Q Brochures or something? A Brochures about his business, you know, about this ; business. And I got a friend there, ovwms a store and got |money , owns a business, and I told him about it. He says, '"cee, it sounds like a good thing," and he was in with a builder. So he says, "I will write the guy a letter,” and he | eitied out, told him he is worth a half a million dollars, |the other guy; they owned proverty and everything. And he itold me if they get it, he would let me run it and I would be 457 a vartner. They would out un the money and the builder would build the things and they would buy the equinment. Anyway, the guy sent him back another brochure about 4e his education. The guy got mad and tore it up and he says in the heck with them. He says, “Anybody could have a half a million dollars and a guy wants to know how nuch education." He says, "I don't want to talk to him." And that was the end. Anyway, that is what I told Jack about these here things. They hadn't ever come out here. The guy took me around -- Q What was his name? Do you remember? A Who? Q They guy in Dallas -- A These here -- Q -- who told you about the -- A It wasn't in Dallas. This wasn't in Dallas. I think it was in -- before I hit Dallas, some state before PHit Dallas: Q Oh. So you told Jack about it when you got there? | A Yes, that I had seen it and I showed him the brochures The guy give me quite a bit of them and I showed it to him and! I told him, "“Maybe you would be interested in that. You could start it here." SS Ss SE. Q Where did you talk to him about that? Was that at f / 5. Se oS ee 44-105 0 - 79 - 30 \ 458 the club? A Yes. 42 9) What club was that? Was that the Carousel? 4+ A Yes. I stayed across the street for two days, in that hotel riaht across the street. I think I stayed there two days. | a Q HOw did you happen to go to Dallas in 1963? A I was on my way to Los Angeles. You were coming from New York? I was coming from Chicago. Why were you in Chicago? I really don't know. I have brothers there. All my relatives were there at that time. Q Does it refresh your recollection to know that you had gone to a wedding in New York and were coming back? A From a wedding? “lo. That couldn't be true because I would have had my wife with me. I might have said that, but that ain't true. Q Do vou remember stepning in Joplin, Missouri to check on this carwash? A That is where it was, Missouri. That is where it was. Q Okay. Well, how did you hapnen to go to Dallas from Jonlin, instead of going directly to Los Angeles? A I don't really know... I will tell. you -- the car that I was driving broke down. 459 Q Where? A In Joplin, Missouri. I was driving a Cadillac | across for somebody, for some comvany. 4- : Q Were you with anyone? A No, I was alone. And I figured I would just go see | : Jack, i\“" ; t I guess. I don't know why I went there, really. I ™I remember. I just went there. : Q Did you have any business in Pallas? A Maybe I went to tell about this thing. I don't know. | Q Did you have anv husiness in Dallas? | A No. : Q Did you tell him about this Sata Uh business to jinterest him in it? A Yes, actually him. I didn't know about his brother. I really didn't know that his brother had the laundromats. I peer know that. z| 0 You mean since you had seen Jack in '53 -- ‘| { A Maybe I did know that. I don't know. } 7 f Q -- since you had seen Jack in '53 that maybe he had |{ A Yes. Q So that car broke down. Did vou drive that car from iJonlin to Dallas? A No. They give me a different car. The man there ee oo Se iwhere -- that took the car in to renair it -- that could be 7 460 I | easy retraced because the Cadillac dealer is still in business | Q What dealer? | | A I hear him on the air all the time. | de | Q In Los Angeles? A Yes. I think he is in Culver City or somewhere, |;somewhere like that on the west -- he is the guy that adver- || aoe he has got all the cars on the roof. I don't know if i» you have heard that advertisement. i Q Did you let Jack Ruby know in advance that you were | | coming to see him in 1963? Weren't you -- n I don't even know where to send him a letter. | | Q Weren't you afraid that he wouldn't be there when you went there? A Didn't make no difference, really. Q Well, Dallas is vretty far out of the way from Joplin | to Los Angeles. | i A I don't know. What time of the year was that? Was ' \ = jit winter? | i | Q November, fall. ! i |} A Well, probably I went that way on account of ‘the cold or i || something. I went the southern route. E dan t= knew. =I ‘ {really don't know. | | Q But it is your oresent recollection that you went 7just to see Jack? A Yes. 461 9 Was Jack Ruby survrised to see you? | A Not over-much so. I guess a lot of guys dronved in | on him. . de : Q This was only the second time you had seen him in 39 |years. | OA Yes. Well, he didn't -- I don't remember how he i ae! reacted, truthfully. He didn't throw hisself all over me, if ou that is what you mean. Q Did you visit him in his apartment or did he visit you in your motel? A I never seen his apartment and he never seen my mikes Ti, ss JUSt VISltea slim Tir ese "CLUuD., | 9 You say you were there maybe two nights? A Two days, yes, two nights, whatever it was. | Q Did you go to the club just one time or more than akede a | A I think I went there every day I was there. | Q So you think it was at least two evenings vou went jthere? | A Les ! | Q How long did you stay each evening? | | A Oh, once I went to eat with him. i | Q At’ the’ club? | A Wo, we went outside to some restaurant. I don't think, mw lhe { had food in the club. I don't remember. | i 462 Q Was the restaurant nearby? A Yes, I think it was. We walked over... I.thinkit to was in the hotel. de Did you go with anyone else? ta No, just him and I. Did you discuss that business, the carwash business with anyone else -- No. -- in Dallas? A No. I don't know nobody in Dallas. Q When you were talking to Jack about it, did he talk to anyone else? Did he call anyone about it? A Called his brother. Q His brother Sam? A Sam. And then his wife answered. She wouldn't put him on the phone. I don't know -- like they were feuding. 2) So you didn't meet with Sam then? A No . Q Did you ever meet with Sam about it? A Did I ever talk to him about it? Q Did you ever meet with him ahout it and talk with ‘i him about it? i : t A No. I don’t think I knew him. I will tell you the | 4 truth, I might have seen him once in my whole life. | Q Was there anything else that you and Jack Ruby did ‘| | i | | i 463 \ on that visit to Dallas besides eat and svend some time at the club? i i A Nothing, no. I never seen his house or nothing. Q Did he try to interest you in any de business deals? A No. The only thing that happened ia while I was there - he had trouble with the two guys next door to him. He asked me if -~- he told me -- here is the way he exvlained it to : | me. He said that they all had amateur nights 1 and they were \ turning pro and they wanted -- they didn't | want the amateurs j no more and they had agreed that they would not | use no ama- i i} teurs. They would take girls that belonged to the union or ' something. I don't know what it was. And he H says, "Now that | I quit and I got professionals," he says, "they | still got the \ || amateurs." | So he asked me if I knew any union people in LA ‘that jeouta intercede because -- I Gon't know -- thev were union ee and while I was there, he called New York, some guy | pe knew -- asked him if he could helno him. Q | Do you know whom he called in New York? | A No, I don't. No, I don't. I don't even know if he | called a union guy or who he called. Now most of the time | pee I was nnaeas Johnson was there, the guy that worked for jhim. I think I talked more with him than I dia with Jack I" i ibecause Jack was always doing something, talking to somebody | lon the phone or -- | Hl] 464 | Q Was that Joe Johnson, entertainer? | A No, no. This guy worked for him. Is that is name, | Johnson? te | Q Was he white or black? | A Black. Black. He handled the money for Jack and | everything. When we would go out, when Jack would close that place uv, this colored guy put the money there and the gun |there, leave it on the table for Jack to take to the bank. | Q Do you remember whether it.was during the day or at night that Jack called New York about the, union problem? A Was it the day or the night? | Q Certainly, if he called the guy at the office, he would have called ee the day. A Yes. I don't think he called the guy i an office. :I don't really know. I don't know. It was night. I am |pretty sure it was night. | Q Did he get any letters or telegrams about the union yeroplet while you were there? | ! A No, nothing. Then he had a beef, too. He had to |go to court while I was there. ; (9) Was that with one of his entertainers? | A ves. She exposed herself or something and he kicked jhex out. | Q Had he wanted to fire her anyway -- ! { A I don't know. 465 Q -~ because of her big salary? | A I don't know. I never seen the girl. | ) He never said that to you? : A Well, no. He told me -- he told me she -- she tried to -- he said she's trying to close this place up. Maybe they had a financial dispute and then he said she was trying to get him closed up. That is what his story was. il Q Do you remember Jack calling Bobby Faye in New York City about the AGVA problem? A Could be. I don't know who he called; absolutely I know. c. Q Did you ever know Joe Glazer in New York? ‘ A No. Q Do you know if Jack called him? A I wouldn't know. I don't know the name of the person he called. I wasn't that interested, I will tell you, to listen to his conversation, but I know he called New York. cannes eeiaes ao Se 3S Q Was he pretty unset about it? Was it hurting his business a lot? A Oh, yes, he was unset about it. i Q Was it hurting his husiness? F A Yes, he cursed them veonvle and all that. He was -- I don't know if it done anything to his business. I didn't see much of his business. I will tell vou the truth. I don't Se eee Ses SS Ses ithink I hung around there all the time. 466 Q Well, when you sav you talked about him discussing the problem with the union, you said that he and the two people next door -- Abe and Barney Weinstein? ~ ws de A I don't know them. I just knew that there were in other places along -- Q The comnetitors? ™“t A Yes. I didn't know them. Q You got the impression that the comnetitors had agreed with Jack that they would all stov the amateur nights? A Right 7 ,.Right. Q Why would they agree to something like that? A I don't know. I don't know why. I don't know. Q Did you have the imoression that Jack had communi- cated directly with his competitors about it? A Not while I was there. He might have hefore because they -- that was a -- already had passed all that when I come there. He was trying to get help. Q Did you know Janet Conforto? A Who? Q Janet Conforto. A Is that a man or a -- Q Jeda? A Never heard of her. Q One of the entertainers he was having problems with. A What is her name? 467 Q Janet Conforto. A You know, I got her victure at home on that TL nN cLe nostal card, but it don't sound like that name. Was it Little Lyn? I wouldn't know. I would have to look at the card. Ee gqotenit at home. Did you see any volice officers in Jack's club while you were there? A Never. Q Did he ever mention how his dealings were with the f i police? i i i A Never. He told me he was in good with -- oh, I will ‘ | tell you what happened. He did tell me about the police. He { |! said he i had a fight with some ex-fighter and he took a pistol. i t |The guy called him up, called him dirty names, Jew and all | that there, and told him to come down to some restaurant down- town. And all the emmloyees heard it or something and when he i iwalked out, they called the police and when Jack got there, ! ‘il the police took the pistol away from Jack and Jack beat the ! |hell out of this guy. Q The volice just let him do it? A Oh, ves. They let him fight fair. Q Did you get the imnression as to whether or not Jack was having any »sroblems with volice enforcing rules very strictly? 468 i A No. Q Or problems with curfews? A My idea of what he -- that he was in with all the that he had done them favors and -- I don't know, but de : police, , 1£ you own a bar, any bar in any city of the United States, |you cater to all the police because they are the ones that you uo if there is a heef in your place or something, ] close |ioO so you cater to all of them in every city of the United States | 3s) so I guess he was in with the nolice. | Q What else did you and Jack discuss besides the union | | problems and this husiness onvortunity? A Well, he told me -- oh, he told me about his sister's Foiacl. the other place, and we went over there. a) The Vegas Club? A I guess that was it. It was a different tyve of | place, dancing, just dancing, that's all, with a Dixieland band or something like that, and that is when I met Eve. That is the first time I ever met her. Q Was her club going well? | A I don't know. There didn't seem to be any peovle in l there when I came there. \ Q Dia you go there during the week or on a week-end? |i A I don't remember. |; Q Was Jack's club going better than hers? t ! Well, he didn't complain about his club. I don't know. | f A i 469 I don't even -- I remember one time I saw a little something. | I don't go in for that. I might have walked out while it was going on or something. I don't remember. te (a) How did Jack's financial situation differ, if at all, in between 1963 and 1953, when you had been there before? Was the club going worse? Was it going better? Was it a higher quality? oOo A This was a different club. ee eee eee Q Right. A This was a higher quality club. I don't know. I would call it a higher qualitv. Q Was it your impression that he was doing better than he had been? A Yes, yes. @) Did he complain at all about money? A No. No, hewdédn ‘its Q Did he have any ideas as to some things you should invest in? A That I should invest in? I didn't have no money to invest in anything, so -- i Q What was his reaction when you suggested that he i | might A want Well, to get into right away this he carvash got on business? the phone and called his | ! 470 It really looked like something. There was a line about two | blocks lona waiting to get in this place. I think it was the | ~ |! w first one because the man that onened it was standing there. | de I spotted him right away. You know, he was dressed up. He | da was an elderly fellow and he was watching the proceedings. | i Q Did Ruby mention that he might file a lawsuit against | | his comnetitors? A NO, BilO. “> Q Did he mention that he had gone to New York City or would go to New York City to try to do something about it? A No. No, he didn't discuss that with me. Q Did you discuss your past exneriences in Chicago at all.in the 1963 visit? be A IT wouldn't really know. I wouldn't remember. 9) Did you get the imnression that Jack had visited Chicago on occasion in the previous years? A I don't know. Q Did he discuss why he moved to Nallas? A Well, the way I heard it -- he had trouble with his brothers, the older one. Q Hyman or -- A They were in business together. 9 Hyman or Earl? A EFarlwo. fethinks« ituwasiEarbhotirdonSst. hr6e. fe) Earl Products Comnany? 471 = A Yes. They had some kind of business and I guess Earl was -- had the most authority in there and they vaid Jack off and kicked him out or something, beught him out or 4a something. That is when I heard he went to Dallas. riders. know who told me these stories. You meet people in your life-| ta ee esae es time. I mean you are talking about a lot of years. —— Q Do you know whv he went to Dallas? A Well, I guess to get in with his sister. I think his sister couldn't handle these guys. You know, they got rough kids there in Dallas. Q Had she had some trouble there? A I don't really know... I.don't really know. “faybe ———— Bhes told me-that: I don't.know. Q Did Ruby mention any volans he had for either new clubs or new businesses or anything like that? A No. Q Did he mention any goals that he had? A Any goals? Q Goals. A No. No. The only thing he really told me about was the trouble with these guys, that they agreed to do one thing and they changed their mind and that was his big problem. Q Did you understand that the union had changed the jrules | or just that the competitors -- i it i (A No, these -- that they made an agreement between them. | | | 472 That is the way I remember it. I don't know. ~ Q So he was mostly mad at them? A Yes. 4+ Q Was he mad at anybody else? A Not that I know of. @) Why would he call somebody in New York, if his |a competitors in Dallas had broken an agreement with him? A I don't know. Through the unions, I guess. These ; unions work all together. ) Q Do you know or did you know anyone associated with that union, the American Guild of Variety Artists? A (Witness shakes head.) (@) No? A No. Q What else did you do in Dallas on the 1963 visit? 5 | Did you go anywhere else? Did you see any shows? A I vrobably looked around the town. I don't know. I don't remember, really. I will tell you the truth; I don't. i know. Q Did you meet any of Jack Ruby's friends? A No, no. “et a counle of girls in the club and this - | colored fellow, that is about all. 9) Did you snend a lot of time with Jack Ruhy those tvo 1Or three days? A I think I spent most of the time right in the club. 473 fa) And you said that he -- A Probahly slent late because I stayed late there and Q You had said earlier that he svent a lot of time | tending to business while you were there. Ee ee A Yes. Q So would you say you had a lot of time to talk to him? A Well, he was doing things. I don't remember now, but ihe was doing a lot of things while I was there, filling hoxes with Cokes and telling this guy what to do and all that. I mean I di@n't bother him. Q What contacts, if any, did you have with Jack after you left in 1963? A Just telenvhone conversations. Q What were the circumstances surrounding the first ‘| contact and when was it? ! : | ‘| A It was -- when I left them, he asked me -- on the | Marquee, he bought letters, you know, about this big. He said| Ine bought them through an agency that -- the factory was here jin LA. I think I still got it at home. He gave me a sample } ! |letter and asked me could I get for him at cost over here, and he ! told me which letters he wanted, you know, what he should juse mostly. And I went up to the place and they told me they | \don't sell | individuals, that they sell direct to these outlets.. { i And he had a dog for me and I didn't want to take the| \t 44-105 0 - 79 - 31 474 dog then because -- I don't remember why, because the car wasn't mine or something. I didn't want to dirty the car. ~ But he said he would send him to me as soon as he got a hox ie or something to shin him in. Well, then he called me and the FBI -- I told then tn hat. They could have verified it at the time. He called me about 20 minutes to a half-hour after the President was ™ killed, but I seen it on TY and I hanpened to see 1 &. Q Well, let me ask you this: prior to the call on the day of the assassination -- A Yes. I never heard -~ Q -- between the time that you left Dallas for Los | Angeles and the day of the assassination were there any phone a A calls? A No, not that I remember. Q Didn't you have to call him to tell him about the | letters on the sign? A I might have called him for that. I don't remember. Q Because the record indicates that on November 17th, 1 1963, in the evening, you called him at 9:28 at the Carousel |Club -- A could be. Q -- and talked to him for eight minutes. A I told him I couldn't get them signs. Q There is no indication as to what you discussed. 475 A Probably that is all I could discuss with him. That ' was it. Q What was the olan about the dog? When vou Lett, did you just have the imnression that it was going to show up one day or were you going to -- A No, no, no, no. He gave the dog to some actress or | something, some person -- I don't know -- lived in the hotel and they couldn't keep him in the hotel and they guy's wife 1 was comolaining. The dog was eating her shoes and her socks. | So he gave him back to Jack. Now Jack had his own Gog, the | Mother of this dog. In fact, the dog just died about eight months ago. I had him all these years and you know, I started playing with this dog. I said, "Gee, they are nice dogs." So o=oeowe o an eb he savs, "Well, if you.want one, vou can have this one here, the little one," and I told him that I would love to have him, j but I couldn't take him with me. If he would ship him to me, Sot ee ee sce SS Ss ri 1 q I would vay the expense, which he did -- not he did, but that || guy Johnson did, I think. “ar 9 So you exvected that one day you would get a notice ‘ ' that the dog had showm un? ' i aa) Yas, a Q He wasn't going to call you that it was coming or E |write you that it was coming? | i | A I think he was in jail already. i Q No, I mean when you left Dallas what was your 476 understanding as to when you would hear ahout the dog next? A I don't know. I don't really know. Q But you had the imnression that he was going to shin wo ja it to you? in A Yes. Q And so that you would get it -- you didn’t have to do anything. You didn't have to send the money first, did you A No, no. I don't think I ever sent him any money. He So) just shipped it and that was it. 9) Okay. So you checked on the siqn, the letters for the sign? A Yes, I went to the comnany. Q And he was going to do something about shinning the : dog. Those were the only two things that were left un in the air? A Thatrisigight: Sie Ssh SS Q Was there anything left up in the air about the car- ontao wash business, that Sam would call you or you would call Sam? A Nojrno.. Q That was just kind of dropved? A No conversation about that. Q Did it look like that would -- A Because he had the brochures. He could have done -- he could have done that hisself. He didn't talk to me about 2%. 477 Q So it wasn't a question ahout him going into business | with you? | | A No. Q It was just you gave him the brochures and -- A I didn't have no money. In fact, I was telling some- |body else -- I told the man at that wash that I had somebody | || in LA that might put uv the money if the proposition looked |i ; right to him. I says these neonle do them kind of thinas. Th y are builders and -- | Q Were you hoping that Sam would be interested in ao money in that kind of a business? ip ern PS ar i ae tl tt A It didn't make no difference to me. fe) It wasn't going to be a situation where you would run it and + would invest the money? A No. I didn't even know Sam, as I told you. | Q Okay. The call on November 17th, 1963 -- what is oi: best idea as to what that call would have been about? You had called him -- A When I called him? Q At the Carousel Club at 9:28 n.m. | | A I probably told him that I couldn't get them ee! things, them letters. fe) Did he ask you to do anvthina else about that? A No. Q Did he mention the union vroblem he was having? 478 No. Did he mention the dog? ~ A I don't know. I can't tell you for sure. | Do you have any recollection of how his attitude was? H de Q | Did he sound different? | A I don't remember that call. I will tell you the Goa's remember that call. If I called him, that is trucne I don't what I called him for. I don't remember even talking to him. ee ne ee a Now the second time I remember, but that time I don't remember; It ain't clear in my mind what I talked to him about. Q That would have been a Sunday night. A Yes. Well, that don't bring back nothing. 9 Okay. You mentioned the call shortly after the . assassination. A Right. Q Who called whom? A He called me. Q And what did he say? A He told me about the dog, I think. I don't know if he mentioned the letter, but I think he talked about the dog, and he never mentioned, until the end of the conversatio Then he says, "What do you think of somebody shooting the \ j ‘ | President? Ain't that a terrible thing?" And he started i crying. He started crying. He says, “I can't talk to you," | iand he hung un. 479 Q So it is your belief that it was a fairly brief phone call? A Yes, it was a brief phone call. And I told the FBI at the time, if they want to verify that, my wife called me from work and told me about it and I says, "Yeah, I know about it." I told her a guy called me from Dallas and told me about it and I says all of a sudden he started crying on the phone. And my wife told all the girls in the nlace about this Ruby. They didn't know Ruby. I told the FBI at the | time, I savs, "If you want to verify, go over to my wife's ij Dlace and ask these girls. They were there at the time mv wife called me to tell me about it.” Q Did Ruby mention anything besides just the assassina- ition or did he mention how he felt about the President? A I can't remember his exact words now, but I know he | felt real bad about it. He cried and hung up. He couldn't } talk. I don't remember the exact conversation nov. | Q Did you say he mentioned the dog in that call, too? : A I don't know. I don't remember. | Q Did he mention the carwash business? | A Oh, that call was -- he mentioned the dog, yes. That jcall there, he mentioned the dog. i { H 0 And he said he was going to send the the dog as soon cs he could? ‘ Hy A Yes. 480 Did he say what was holding him un? No. Did he mention the carwash business? 4e- No. ty In your interview in 1964, you said that he did dis- carvwasn business in that call. |a And if I said it, he did. I don't remember. ref) You don't remember? I don't see why that is so important if he said it or if he didn't. I don't remember. You sent Ruby a letter in prison. Is that correct? Yes. Aporoximately how long after fa shot Oswald was that?- rs I think he was in prison for a manths already when I sent it. I got a return letter from him, too; at home. Basically what did you discuss in the letter? Just that I was sorry he got in all that problem. Did you thank him for the dog? Yes, I did. Did you save a copy of the letter that you got? || Yes. ‘I got his letter, yes. | Q vou fave his letter. What did he talk about? | | A Can you believe I forgot what it says in the letter? ‘fellows. 481 9) Al and Joe? A Yes, They read it. I gave it to them to read. I should have brought it with me. I haven't looked at it in so —————— many years I don't remember what it Says, only that it was a very nice letter, i. Q Did he mention in there any Of his reasons for what happened? a neOR A No, no. SS eS ——— Q Do you think you could send us a Xerox copy of that letter? - A Think I could do what? eee Hs wee: © aews ere cee wee. ae + Q Could you send us a Nerox copy of that letter? P =; A Could I send you a Xerox cony? Where are you at? Q I can give you our address, the Committee. Se SS SE <= ES Did he call you at all from prison? Obs A No. I didn't know he could call. i -ses neare Q Did you ever visit him there? A No. ann = ———-—- --.. Q Never? A (Witness shakes head.) Q Did you go to his trial? A branes shakes head.) Q Could you indicate by saying "no"? A No. Q All right. Did you do any favors for Ruby, help raised ee SS SS SeSeisee eCae SS 482 money for the defense fund or help get him a lawyer? A Nothing, nothing. No. Q Did any of the family ask you to? de A No. I didn't see his family. SS See Q Did you ever, at any time, loan money to Jack Ruby or @id he ever loan morey to you, ever? |a A Not that I know of. Not that I know of. ao Q When you saw Jack Ruby in 1963, did he mention that ee eet shen he had heen to Cuba? A No. Q Have you ever been to Cuba? A No. Have vou ever known anyone who had business dealings in Cuha? No. Did Jack Ruby ever mention any of his dealings with eel em sere the Dallas Police Department to you? ia) A Just that he was friendly with all the police; that | is about all. Q Did he mention a Lieutenant Gilmore? re A He didn't mention nobody by name hecause I wouldn't know their names anyway. He never mentioned anybody by name. Q Can you remember any other unusual events at the Carousel, other than that one time when he fought the three men? ts tee a See ea A SS ee ee eoenn bie 483 That wasn't the Carousel. That was the Silver Snur. Oh, that was in 1953? + == Yes, Q Were there any unusual events that you saw in 1963? A In the Carousel? No. He seemed to oven that place like you do a ball. game, like with the National Anthem, but he did something else. He said something, I don't remember ssee rero ne — what! it was, something like "for the United States," you know. cei Se tea aT ES aac Q So he introduced the Dvrogram -- A Yes, before it started. -- with kind of a vatriotic theme? nm Yes. Did that strike you as a little A re ee eee eee strange? ss a It did for a joint like that. Jack Ruby was a strange Se ee in guy. To me he was a strange guv. Q Do you know aay Soe) or have you ever known James Breen or ae Bunny Breen who would have been in Los Angeles? ee SSS i A No. I know a Breen in Chicago -- I knew. Or not i} a i Breen, Brim. No, I don't know no Breens. Q Have you ever met or do you know of a man from Los Angeles named Jim Braden or Eugene Harold Braden? st A (Witness shakes head.) Q No? Ho, sir. Have you ever met or do you a Morgan H. Brown from SSe ace Satan Ss eS Stas. TSS SS 484 |Los Angeles? | “> A Mo. Q Do you know a Harrv Olsen now living in the San be Francisco area? | tn i] | Q No? i | A No. Q Do you know or have vou met Earl Schieb? if bo) | A Earl Schieb, the paint man? a 9) No? Could you state -- ! A No, I never met him in my life. Q Thank you. Did you ever meet or know anyone who knew John Roselli? | A Who is John -- John Roselli, the gangster? I don't now hin. | Q Did you ever know or have you ever met Harry Hall or i | t 1 Harry Haller? | | A Yes, I know Harry Haller. Q How do you know him? A Oh, let us see. How did I first meet Harry? One of |the ball games, I guess. He used to come around and bet aro: i | the ball game. I used to go to the hall games. I told you I | | Q What city was this in? Wwta A Right here. I didn't know him from Chicago. 485 @) Los Angeles? A I didn't know him from Chicaqo. Oh, I will nw tell you where I met Harry Hall. Barney Ross took me with him to se Chicago and on the train was Harry Hall and that guy that works for Milton Berle, still with him. We is on ‘tilton Berle -- they went to school together or something. Us four were on the train, Harry Hall. That is how I first met him, Harry Hall. He was going to get the -- he was going to make a music festival, I think, in Frisco. I think he did, too. Q Do you still know him now? A I haven't seen Harry Hall in I don't know how many years. Over ten vears I haven't seen him, more than that. Q Did you ever discuss with him the fact that you both knew Jack Puby? A No, not thatcr know esé: Q Did you know that Harry Hall knew Jack Ruby? A No. | odoo Q Did you know that Harry Hall had been connected with { | Dallas? i { i A No. | | Q Did you know that he had nlaced some big bets, taken some big bets from H. L. Hunt? i | ‘ A Well, I knew Harry Hall was a con artist. He did that with a lot of people. I have heard stories -- so many stories» about -- you could write a book about Harry Hall. Fvervbody 486 | knows about him who has been around a little. ~ | Q Did he ever tell you that he had met Lee Harvey | | \ Oswald? be A Did who, Harry Hall? | Q:; Harry; Hall. ; A No. I never heard of Harvey Oswald until the shootin 4 when he shot him. Then I -- : 9) Right. But you don't think Harry Hall ever mentioned bo) him since, that he knew him? | A No. I haven't -- I don't think I saw Harry Hall after the President was killed. I saw him before then. Q Did you ever see him in DNallas? i i { A No. i ; f Q Where would you have seen him, other than on the train, out here in Los Anceles? > | A Yes. I used to go to the card room. He was there. i Pp{In fact, I owned the card room at that time, right over there Oo ;on Fifth and Flower. | Q Was that in the late '50's or the early '60's? | A I imagine it was in the '60's. I used to be the general manager of the Veterans Cabin and we had a little ‘ba room around the corner, on Fifth there. “e used to play ‘cards there and he would come in there. That is the last time I seen Harry. Q Have you ever known anyone other than Jack Ruby> 487 from Dallas? _~ A I don't know anybody in Dallas. Never knew a soul | there. Didn't even know his brother, San. «+ Q Did you know whether or not Jack Rubv was the sole | owner of his club or did he have a nartner? i‘i A I don't know. I never asked him that. i i} Did you know a Ralvh Paul? No. Did you know George Senator, his roommate? Did you know he had a roommate when you visited in “| 1963? 4 A No, no. The first time I heard of it, when I read in the paver. a Did you know or do you know of Lawrence Meyers? Never heard of him, even. ™! Did you ever know a Harry Urhan? No. 8) . 10 Or Benny Binywen? . 10 Benny Binyan -- Las Vegas? In Las Vegas now, yes. Well, he has been in Vegas ever since I know him. I heard of him outside of Las Vegas. & He Zaercsvallashins2947. in I didn't know him. 488 Q Were you aware of his continuing connection with Dallas, even over the vears he has been in Las Vegas? A No. I don't know him versonallv. I just heard of w ta de him. I heard he went to jail for income tax or something. ia ) Did you know or did you know of Lewis “cWilly, a a friend of Jack Ruby*s? ™t A Never heard of him. Q ) t Did you know Russell BARRE ey Ba a Mat ews? + SS) A Nogrixdone.t. Q Did you know Irving "“lazzei, “i-a-z-z-e-i, associated i with AGVA in Los Angeles? A What is AGVA? Q It is the American “uild of Variety Artists -- are~ A No, I don't -- Q -- the union Jack was havina trouble with. A I don't know. Q Did you know or do you know of Mike Shore? A Mike Shore. Is he dead? Q No, he is in Los Angeles. A Mike Shore. I have heard that name. I don't know. Q He was in public relations. 4 A No, 2> don “ehknawsiim 4 Q You mentioned earlier that you met Eve through Jack, ta A Yes. 489 Which visit was that on, '53 or -- sy _ » Le) The second one. Then '63/) visit? ar The last one, yes. i- ta Q Was she sick at that time? A No, she was in that other nlace. I don't know if 7~~ she was sick, but she was in that other place. wo { 9] Was she about to have an operation or did she just have an oneration when you were there? ine) A I think I heard of something like that, ves. i | Q And you obviously don't remember visiting her in 12 | the hospital. ! 13 | A Oh, yes. Yes, I did visit, yes. Where was that, i '¢ i in Dallas? it S| baw In Dallas. I$ | A Yes, I did. | ae iy | Q How did you hapnen to visit her in the hosnital? 3 | A I don't know. Jack took me there or something. . I '¥ |don't know. a0 : Q, Was that where you first met her, in the hospital? ato Yes, yes. Yes. See, I forgot about that. Yes, I “2 | did meet nariatn the hosnital, now that vou mention it. 23 | i Q What contact did you have with Eva after that? 24 | nee Well, nothing here. Nothing in Dallas. But then 35 ox9iwhen she come here -- | 1 44-105 0 - 79 - 32 490 | Well, did she call you shortly after the assassinatio ne | A Who, Eva?. No. | | Q Do you remember her calling you within ten days of de the assassination? in A No. Q Do you remember her calling to thank you for Giditings | oO. | her in the hospital? A I don't remember. She might have, but I don't ~o remember. Q Okay. So you got to know her when she moved out here? A Yes. She started coming around my house for a while | and she is a little dingy. She says to me -- she-says’ to’ me one day, “I am not going to come around because your wife is jealous." She is a big, heavyset woman -- my wife is jealous of her. So she quit coming around, but she did come around a couple of months ago or a month ago. She was over to my house. Q What was that? Just -- A Just about a month ago. Q Was there a particular reason? A I don't even remember what we talked about. Q asia about the TV special? A Oh, that is what it was. Oh, I will tell you what she talked about. She wanted to know if I could get anybody to helyn her collect money and she found out my son is a Lawyer. 491 Q Collect money from whom? A From the -- she said she didn't get enough money or something for the victure, something like that. 4- Q Did you have any contacts with her anywhere hesides Los Angeles and Dallas? A No, not that I -- . | Q Did you have any contacts with her in Chicago? A Not that I know. I never seen her in Chicago. See, I was away from Chicago -- let me see -- from around '29. Then I came back -- I don't know what year, '35 or something. | I had this little business. It didn't work out and I came | out here and I went to work in the shipyards. That was just | before the war, before we went into the war, and then I went ' in the Army. | | Q You had stated earlier that vrior to the assassination gh you didn't have any direct contacts with Sam Ruby about if nvesting r- in the carwash idea. Did you have any contacts with | him about it afterwards? Did he call you or suggest it later? A Not that I remember. I know -- I will tell you what \washed my -- Q Sam? A Yes. I had washed my hands of him because he wouldn't -- I says, "No, I don't know nothing." If I did 492 knov, I wouldn't have told him.’ Q Because of his brother? Coy) A No. At the time we told him ahout, that day his so wife didn't even want to answer to talk to us. ta Q Oh, that is right. ‘hen vou called to -- A To tell: him ahout the carwash. Q Why wouldn't his wife let him talk tc vou? A I don't understand, unless Jack and her had a bee®f. PS) You know, maybe he was hanging around the place or something. I don't know. Qpa She must have been afraid that somehow Sam was going to lose money in the deal. A I wouldn't know, really. I never met his wife. I don't know what kind of woman she is. What contacts have you had with Earl Rubv over the On Jack? No, with Earl. Who? With Earl Ruby. Who, me or -- Yes? y*Ou I never seen Earl Ruby. Had you ever talked with him? Not that I know of. Not that I can remember. I don't: 493 know what reason I would have to talk to him about. i ro Q Did he ever call you about Jack's defense fund? A Jesus, I don't remember. I don't think so. He don't 4- even know me. tn Q You have never met him or talked with him? A Never, no. | Q Did you have any knowledge of any criminal activities #| that were going on in Pallas when you visited there? | : A I didn't know of any. Q Did you know or did Jack 2ubv mention Joe Campnesi? : A No, ne.cidan't, | Q Or Joe Savillo? A No, he didn't. | | ! Q Do you know of Erwin “Wiener? I think I asked you that wie \ A No, I don't. SS 3.36 See @) You don't know Allen Dorfman, either? > The only one you mentioned that I know is Harry Hall. (@) Do you know Frank Matula? A Who? cneee -os ws Q Frank Matula -- oe Sn See eee A ~=Ss No, I don't. 9 -- M-a-t-u-l-a. A No, 1 aon't. Q You have been associated in the past years, before you. hwta iretired, See eS SS ek. eS eS in the scran metal business. Is that correct? i 494 A Right. Q That is in Los Angeles? A Yes, Santa -- I was in Santa Maria for a little over > w 4+ a year. ia Q And you didn't have any dealings with Frank Matula een ace eS es So anna aces en . in the scrap metal business? A Why? Is he in the scrap metal business? I don't | know. ————S oO Q Yes, he has been. But you didn't have any dealings with him? A No. ee ence means Q Did you ever know Jimmy Hoffa? A No. 9 Never had any indirect communication with him? A No. Q The reason I asked was that Frank Matula had heen in the scrap metal business in this area, allegedly vorking .r ‘ for Jimmy Hoffa and I wondered whether there had been any mressure, direct or indirect, on your conduct of your business A ee you know, in the scrap metal business. A I had a small yard in Santa “Maria. Q So you didn't get any outside pressure about it? A No. Q Do you know Bradv Parton? A Nop. Ie con ‘tb. 495 Q Do you know of him? A (Witness shakes head.) Q To your knowledge, was Jack Ruby ever involved in 4- any criminal activities in Chicago or Dallas, other than in killing Oswald? A Well, if you want to call scalving -- that is all I know he ever -- he was only a kid when I knew him in Chicago. Q Are you familiar with Abraham Zuckerman? A Yes, I remember him. Q How did you know him? A He lived in my neighborhood, Q Did you have any dealings with him, either direct or indirect, after the time that you left Chicago? A I never had no dealings with him at any time. In fact, I don't think if I bumped into him I would know him. I think he is dead altogether, isn't he? Q I am not sure. What was that name again? Maybe I got the wrong Zucky, the Bookie, they called hin. Yes, Zucky. Do you remember calling him on the phone in 1963? I never called him. I don't know hin. Did your wife know him? No. My wife is in New York. 496 Q The record indicates that you or someone using your phone called Zuckerman three times in the fall of 1963. Do you have any explanation for that? | de A My wife's sister's name is Zuckerman. Unless you | got the veople mixed up -~ I don't even know the verson you are talking about here. Q There is also a record on October 30th, 1963. A Where did they call, Chicago or New York? I called Zuckerman the day hefore yesterday. That is my brother-in- law.-- a hard-working kid. Q I think Zuckerman -- certainly Zucky the Bookie was out of Chicago. A I don't know him. I don't know him. Q Do you know anything about the allegation that Ruby had to leave Chicago because he had a significant debt that was due? A I wouldn't know because I wasn't there in them years. I didn't even know what was hapoening in Chicago. I lived in New York. Q So who is the Zuckerman that might have heen the one in the 1963 nhone records? That would be your brother-in-law? A My brother-in-law's name is Zuckerman, Q And what is his first name? A That is funny. I said I know him. He is my brother- in-law. 497 ! Q Was he related to Zucky the Rookie? : Ads -tNoy nos Q Were they both from Chicago? 4- i A No. My brother-in-law was born in New York and I i” 7don't think he was out of New York, just to visit me here. Q Is it nossible that he would have called you collect, ~) |your brother-in-law would have called your wife collect? | A No, no. So) Q Because somebody by the name of Zuckerman called your |nurber collect on October 39th, 1963. | A Called my house collect? Zuckerman? I don't know, : Q I believe you in effect stated this, but was your + Se in New York in 1963, living there? | A Oh, ves. 9 Do you know if your brother-in-law knew Jack Ruby? FB nat 000) Q Did your wife know Jack Ruby? | A No. She knows EW Grant, because she come around the Inouse. She don't know Jack Ruby. i Q Do you have any more information ahout a vhone threat vou received on Nobember 25th, 1963, other than that which you jstated to ekieene | | A Well, I didn't receive the nhone -- my son received 1,jit, the lawyer, the one that is a lawyer. He received it. He | ' 498 . Do you had anything else to add about it or was there | Q Ww any follow-uv threat? A No. Q Where were you when the President was shot? You were 4+ in in Los Angeles? A I was home in bed. e) Were vou also at home when Jack Ruby shot Oswald? I A Yes, I was at home, ves, the whole time, yes. Q Were you sick? You said you were home in bed. Of course, I guess the Los Angeles time would be a couvle of hours earlier. A Well, I can't sleep at night, so I sleep late during 4 the day. 8) Did you call anyone following your learning that |Ruby shot Oswald? A No. My wife called me right after that. Just as | Ruby hung une my wife called me. Q What did she tell you when she called? A Mow what are you talking about, when the President iwas shot? Q Well, both. First, when the President was shot. i Your wife called to tell you about it, but you were watching | TV already. Is that what -- A Yes. I don't know if Jack told me and then -- I 499 Q Did you have the occasion to call any relatives or friends long distance right after the President was shot? A To tell them about it? I don't think So. Q Or to discuss it. A No. Q Did you have the occasion to call anyone, local or long distance, after Jack shot Lee Harvey Oswald to talk about it, to mention the fact that vou knew Rubv? A To make a long distance call to tell somebody? Q Or a local call. Did you call somebody, "Hey --" A Yes, I Know what you mean. Q Because you said that a number of peopnle from Chicago | | that knew Ruby were in Los Angeles, so I would think you might “ |i have ' “ called them to discuss it. ! {i A I don't think so. I didn't know -- Q Were you surprised to hear that Ruby shot him? A I guess I was. Q You had stated that when you knew Jack in Chicago, he was fairly docile.-- A Very -- a very mild nerson, Q -- and that when you saw him in '63, you got the impression that he was a lot more -- A Yes, he had turned a little. Q -- a lot rougher. A Yes. 500 Q Did you ever get the imoression as to whv it had ra | haonened or or 5)just because of the nature of the business he was i Ln? de | A I think it was the nature of the business -- well, |the way he told me, he says, “Well," he says, “I am not a |Texan,” and the fact that he was a Jew and he got into a er ae |business, I guess, that wasn't liked by everyhody. I don't |think it is here either. And the neonle came in and ttied to take advantage of him and he says, "I had to show them that ‘wasn't, you know, scared of them, vrove the noint that I waa a man," Q Was he defensive about being Jewish, feeling he had to nrove something? A I don't know, reallv. I don't raally know. But you get in other cities, in other towns, you know, where there is not a big Jewish ponulation -- a Jew is a big hook-nosed guy with a long heard and robs vour money and -- a) When he called you after the assassination, did Ruby mention the advertisement that was listed above a Jewish mah ts iname that was critical of President Kennedy? A No. I seen the nicture and I saw that, but he never, Il no. No, I never heard nothing like that. The only thing he beefed about was these two guys. That's all the heef that he i Q Did he mention that they were Jewish also? ‘| 001 A No. I didn't know they were Jewish. You just mentioned it. I didn't know they were Jewish, Q Did he mention when he called right after the | 4s assassination that he was going to close his clubs | for a a days and that he was mad because his Jewish comvetitors weren' +as. wrmwee | going A to close Well, theirs? I don't know about that. Mo, he didn't mention | 1h eee | Did he mention at all that he was going to close his club? No, not that I can remember, Did he mention that he had gone to Parkland Hospital | | Se eS ee ob See ok Sen a. een: Ss. a ee that day, after the assassination, or that he was going to go? | A He mentioned it to me? ! Q Did he? A On the vhone? Q Yes. A I can't remember. I don’t think so. I never heard Of Parkland Hosnital, 9OS Did Ruby call you again that week-end, the week-end of the assassination? The assassination was on a Friday, the 22nd. Did he call you on a Saturday or Sunday? A I think he only called me once that I can remember, 9~ To the best of your knowledge, is that the last time that he ever called you on he nhone? 502 A That is right. Q Did you ever call him on the phone after the call aa after the assassination? to A I don't think so. in Q You don't think you: called him on the assassination week-end, then? A I don't think so. I think he called me to tell me about it and that was it. Q Do you remember anything that you did on the morning of Sunday, November 24th, 1963, prior to the time that you found out that Ruby shot Oswald? A What I did? I guess I did the normal things that I do every day. I don't know. Q Ruby ee Oswald in the morning, which would have placed it -- I think it was like 11:14 Dallas time, which would have been about 9:15 this time, Pacific time. A Yes. Well, I was home in bed. Q Were you still in bed at the time that you found out that Ruby shot Oswald or had you been up? A Oh, you are talking about when Ruby shot Oswald. fe) Ruby shot Oswald. Do you know what time you got uo that day? | A I was in the house. I know that. I might have been up, but I was in the house. Q Do vou know if you had gone out that day? 503 ! A I had been sick for quite a while back. I had had | | heart attacks. I don't go out too much. | Q Did you go out that morning before you found out that! de Ruby shot Oswald? | A No, I hadn't left the house, no. Q Of the numbers -- A Was that on a Sunday? 9 Yes. A Well, my wife was home at that time. We were all home then because it was Sunday. Q You hadn't gone out to eat breakfast or go to church or anything? A No, we eat at home. No. Q You mentioned a number of neonle from Chicaqco had known Ruby that were living in this area. Do you know of any that ran any restaurants or food establishments out here that had known Ruby? A Restaurants. Q Or any kind of food establishment. A I imagine “lax Gold. He has been dead for years. Q Is his last name Gold? A Yes, Max Gold. He has been dead for vears. Q Do you know if any of them ever ran a hamburger stand?! A A hamburger stand -- I know a guy's daughter that ran ;a hamburger stand. ' 504 | Q What is her name? { | is | A Uta something. I don't know what her last name because she is married to, you know, somehody with a -- she te had it on “Melrose. | Q What was her father's name? ‘ | A Willy Rosen. 5e) Willy Rosen, R-o-s-e=-n? a|ou A Yes. » Do you know where the hamburger stand was? »,@) On Melrose. On “Melrose. Is he still alive? ,@) » Is what? | Q Is Rosen still alive? A Yes, he is still alive. Q Had he ever lived in Dallas or just in Chicago? A No.-- in Chicago. I don't know if was ever in Dallas, | a) Did you ever hear a revort that the Los Angeles : oo Police Department found out from someone who ran a hamburger stand that you had told him that there had been a phone call | from you to Ruby on that Sunday morning? ' A That I told this fellow that owned a hamburger stand? | f | I am that owns a hamburger stand.| | 1 trying to think of who I know ' i i can't think of anybody. i Q Is there anyone else named Gruber that you kmow in iLos Angeles that they could have mistaken for you? | 505 A Just my brothers. | | Q What are their names? | | A Art. Well, they are not all here now. Ed, Art. | | Q They both live in Los Angeles? | A Well, one lives in Lodi. | Q- But you don't think you told <-- | aN I can't think of anybody I know that owns a hamburger stand, now that you mention it. | ) 7. *Q Did you tell anyone that Sunday morning or sometime after the assassination of the President that you thought that: Oswald would be shot? « \ | | Y I didn't even know who Oswald was. ~ | ee ee ee o Q Well, after November 22nd, after he was arrested. | | A Oh, you mean after he was arrested. | =r. — After he was arrested. | ac \( Q A That I said that what? Did you tell anyone that you thoucht Oswald would be SS eee” teees | { fo) « ctra | cre A I don't know if I did or not. ! you think it is likely that you did? : Q Do Se mae SSS SS Se SS Jn A don tT CMmitin "SOs I might have said he was going \ get huna. I don't know why he would get shot. You have "| to got me curious now-- a guy with a hamburer stand. Did Ruby mention to you when he called you on the 70 <- he : sa} ~ ‘night of the assassination that he thought Oswald should a” } musing OC —- 79 - 22 506 | dead or should get the death nenalty or anything like that? ~ | A The night of the assassinaticn.-- well, he didn't call me at night. He called me right after it hanpnened. They rye didn't even know about Oswald. | ia Q Did he tell you that whoever had shot the President should be nut to death? | A I don't think he discussed that with me that I can | remember. It would be a natural thing to say, anyway. I So) |would say it. | Q Well, apparently the Los Angeles Police Denartment was that a hamburger stanc provrietor said that aR TS him that Ruby had told vou that he was going to shoot Oswald. las that true? A I don't even know nobody that owns a hamburger -- ino, that ain't true, no, no. | Q So you didn't tell anyone that Ruby told you that iawas going to shoot Oswald? a | A Absolutely not. How would I know that Ruby was going shoot Oswald? Q Well, the only vossible wav would be if he told you after the President was shot or sometime after that. would be the only way you could know, unless you could read his mind. A Never told me nothing like that. Q How would you characterize your relationship with ,;Jack Ruby uy until the time he shot Oswald? of en 507 A Just a mild acquaintance; that's all. Q So you wouldn't say that vou and he were really gooc friends? A No. I didn't have that much to do with him. I stop and visit peonle all over. No President gets killed, that's | all. Q Did you consider that Ruby was interested in volitics Did you ever discuss politics with him? A No. | ~G Did you have any idea -- | A That is what kind of confuses me. JI never heard of him in politics. Q Did he ever mention President Kennedy to you? | A No. | Q Have you ever used an alias? | | | A Just my middle name, ves. | Ta) What is that? ; A PHiddios; Q Phillios. You used the name Alexander Phillins? A Yes. Q How long ago was that? A on}dwiea I was a kid. (@) Back in Chicago? A Yes. he) You never used it after that? A No. ~ Q You never used another alias? A (Witness shakes head.) Q Do you know anyone connected with the Teamsters Union A No; findonét < 1 Q You never had any business dealings with them? ™ A I don't think so. Some guy from the union got me | oo ; Out here during the war, qot me a job as a crane onerator,. fe) Who was that? | A ‘ I think his name was -- if I tell you, you will laugh | Beercase. | | Q That is his last name? A Les. rm Q Do you remember his first name? A Hot” ef siow.t . @) But he was connected with the Teamsters Union? A I don't know if that is the Teamsters. I was a crane | Operator. I don't know if that's -=- I don't remember now, Q Was it a dock union? Was it crane onerating on the | docks? A In the shipyards. Q The shinyards? A Yes, building hoats. Q Right. in A That is the only union guy I ever met, I mean persona 909 | : Q Did you ever know Carlos Marcello? / A No. | : 9 No indirect communication with him? | A I don't even know who he is, @) You said that to the best of your knowledge, you |didn't know any of Jack Ruby's friends in Dallas. Is that ! right? A I didn't know any of then. | co +) You had mentioned Joe Johnson, : | A Just the black man that worked in -- | Q He was one. You might be thinking of Andrew Armstrong. He was a black man who helped run the club. Joe | | Johnson was more of an entertainer. And you also -- | |DLA No, this guy wasn't an entertainer. | 1 Q Okay. Andrew Armstrong sent you the dog. | A That is the guy. That is the guy. I didn't know | Din. I met him twice in there, the Gay I was there, You | know, the Los Angeles Police never talked i to me, You : say that they told me this -- that I talked | i] 4 to a guy -- | i ( Q No. They were told by the pronmrietor j of a hamburger l i ;istan d that you had :| told that verson about what Jack Ruby | jallegedy told you. A Well, do you know the guy from the hanburger stand? Q No. A Well, you can find him out. Bring him to me. Let him tells me that he told meantna tees Q Well, what he said was that a man named Gruber. 1 A Well, ie wasn't me. Nm to i+ 2) That is why I asked you if there was some other tina Gruber. A It wasn't me. It wasn't me. ™ Q Do you know of any other Gruber besides your brothers oo A Nos that. know Ofsane@ . se) 9 Did your brothers know Ruby? A I don't uknow, «no. Q You don't think so? A No. I am pretty sure they didn't know him. @) ~ ther than the times we have talked about, did you have any other letters or nhone calls or other communications between yourself and Jack Ruby? A When he was in the hospital, I sent him flovers and HI got a reply. I don't know who -= I think his sister wrote oO LF oe Was that when he was dying? Yes. Q In19662 A I don't know what year it was, but that is when he was sick in the hospital. He was sunnosed to be dying. He had cancer. Q How long before he died did you find out he had cance dil A I couldn't have heen very long. I read it in the oaper. That is the wav I found out. | @) At the end of each devosition, we give the witness c Onportunity to say whatever he or she would like to clarify or maybe it didn't come out right or you want to add , something, and at this time I am | going to give you the ovpor- Ieuniity to add anything or correct anything you would like i to. | A Well, the only thing I could correct now is the way & talk -- you are trving to immlicate me. That is what it Bind like. I don't know nothing about this. | Q Well, I don't mean to imnlyv that. !1 A That somebody said I said it. Why if somebody said { t1 it, bring the guy here. That is the simplest thing in the | oo: And we will straighten it out. H Q But you say the Police Denartment never asked you } | A I never seen the police. Q That is. curious. A Why would I see nolice? J : Q No, I am saying if they got that allegation, you i 1 lwould think they would come and ask you. | A Yes, but they never did and I can't figure out who fnad a hamburger stand that I know. | MR. PURDY: As I said hefore, we will send you a } icopy of the deposition and you can make whatever corrections / / 1 you Lite foreLe. wo I anpreciate your time and the Committee avpreciates to you taking the time to come in and talking with us. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add? ta THE WITNESS: I just want to add they ought to forget it. abl. ™ MR. PURDY: That concludes the denosition, (Whereunon, at 4:35 o.m., the interview in the ahbove- o \ entitled matter was adjourned.) j ‘ | ald vi. Paul Roland Jones tographical Summary (986) Paul Roland Jones was born August 23, 1909, in Pittsburg, Kans. On February 1, 1931, he was arrested for first degree murder. (1351) He was convicted of murder in 1931 and sentenced to life im- prisonment, but he was pardoned on July 8, 1940.(7352) Jones stated shat he was pardoned from the Kansas City Penitentiary by Governor Husman.(/353) After Jones was released, he became involved in the ogo dehydration business. (1354) (987) In late 1940, Jones moved to Dallas. He stated in one interview shat he started gambling operations in Dallas about 1942.(1355) In September 1945, Jones was involved in the operation of the San Jacinto Liquor Store in Dallas.(7356) On December 4, 1945, he went (0 Mexico City to operate a casino, Casa Latino Americano. (1357) He resided at Latin American Apt. 1, Mexico, D.F., and had an office it the Reforma Hotel.(7358) In April 1946, he returned to Dallas. (1359) He returned to Mexico for a brief period in July 1946 out returned to Texas soon after this trip.(7360) In November and December 1946, Jones was involved in a bribery case with officials of Dallas County. In 1947, Jones was arrested for possession of narcotics n Laredo, Tex.(7361) He served approximately, 2 years in Leaven- worth on the narcotics violation, and after losing his bribery appeal, 1e was incarcerated at the Texas State Prison at Huntsville on the ees. conviction. (1362) He was released from prison in March 1952. A286. (988) Jones stated that after he was released from prison, he con- sacted representatives of the Chicago syndicate to seek some help in getting established.(7364) Jones stated that, with the support of the vhicago group, he briefly operated a shrimp brokerage business in 1952, but closed this business and opened about six small beer taverns in Dallas.(7365) Jones discontinued the tavern business and left Dallas about 1953. (1366) (989) Jones stated that after leaving Dallas, he had been in Moab, Utah, for about 1 year, promoting uranium mines; then went to Birmingham, Ala., for about 214 years; and then went to Charlotte, N.C., for about 3 years. He operated a chicken farm in Charlotte which, according to Jones, was primarily concerned with research into whe production of disease-free eggs.(1367) During this period from 1958 to 1960, when Jones was operating the egg research farm, he was Ssociated with Harry M. Hoxsey, who operated a cancer clinic in Dallas for many years until his operation was declared illegal. (7368) Jones stated he would frequently visit his associate in Dallas, and for it least part of the time he maintained an apartment in Dallas. (7369) -990) Paul Roland Jones, since deceased, used the following aliases: Juck Jones, Buck Johnson, and Paul Thomas. 991) Legal activities—Jones stated he had been in the brokerage yusiness and the egg and poultry business since the time he was 30 years old.(/370) Eva Grant was also told that Jones was in the eggs wrokerage business.(/371) He was also involved in the acquisition ind operation of a liquor store in Dallas.(1372) Jones stated that. in 952 he was in the shrimp brokerage business for a short period. (1373) 514 He then operated some beer taverns in Dallas.(1374) He discontinued the beer taverns and became invoived in the operation of a chicken farm in North Carolina.(1375) In the 1960’s, Jones claimed to be involved in the promotion of low-cost housing developments. (1376) (992) Considering Jones’ numerous arrests and his frequent changes of residence and occupation, his financial and social position appears somewhat unstable. (993) There is some evidence Jones had political and law enforce- ment connections. He obtained a pardon from a life sentence in 1940. In Dallas, he associated with several law enforcement officials. (1377) (994) Illegal activities and organized crime.—Jones had been ac- tively engaged in criminal activity since the 1930’s. In February 1931, he was convicted of first degree murder. In the 1940’s, he had several arrests for vagrancy and investigation. In 1946, he was ar- rested for attempted bribery; in 1947 for conspiracy of concealing narcotics. (1378) (995) Jones has been described as a “prominent member of the Weinberg gang and a go-between for the Chicago mob.” (1379) An FBI report described the Weinberg gang as having hoodlum contacts in Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Indiana, Michigan, Arkansas, and many other States.(1380) Through an investigation of the gang, it was determined that Dallas was the “terminal point” for “gang business” ventures in and out of Mexico and that the gang had re- portedly established a branch office in the Reforma Hotel, Mexico | City, supervised by Jones. (1881) ! (996) According to the FBI report, Weinberg also attempted un- successfully to gain control of the gambling, slot machines and juke box activities in the southern States. The Weinberg gang apparently had a connection with the Capone syndicate, because on several oc- casions prominent members of the syndicate were seen in conference with Weinberg and other members of the gang. (1382) (997) Jones stated that soon after his release from Lansing in July 1940, he had been directed by Nick de John of Chicago to come to Dallas to survey the area as to the possibility of taking over gambling, slot machines, bookies, and the numbers racket. (1383) He had been instructed to live in Dallas and to become a local sports- man.(25384) He followed instructions. During the war dealt ex- clusively in black marketing gasoline coupons and other items in conjunction with Nick de John and other Chicago racketeers. (1385) (998) Jones advised Nick de John that the Dallas syndicate was composed of Benny Binion, Ivy Miller, Earl Dalton and others. It was his opinion that they should not take over the gambling in the area.(/386) He reported that business in slot machines, juke boxes and beer and other items was a fertile field. (1387) Jones told the FBI that he started in gambling activities in Dallas about 1942.(1388) Nick de John provided Jones with funds to buy the San Jacinto Liquor Store.(7389) He also purchased other unidentified businesses and property. (1390) (999) De John sent James Weinberg, Paul Labriola, Martin Ochs,} James Barcella and Dannie Lardino to assist Jones. Paul Labriola and James Weinberg were described by Jones as being members off the Guzik mob.(139/7) De John told Jones these individuals were 515 soo hot for Chicago.” (1392) They developed many contacts in Dallas yr the sale of whiskey and beer. These contacts included Abe O. chepps, Carl Ducan, Southern Distributors, and Glazier Whole- vle Drug. (1393) 1000) Some time during the early 1940’s, Marcus Lipsky arrived rom Chicago and told Jones he had the OK from the Chicago syndi- ute for the purchase of slot machines and music routes throughout exas, Louisiana, and Arkansas.(/394) Jones doublechecked with De ohn, who confirmed Lipsky’s story.(/395) Jones acted as Lipsky’s ront man in the acquisition of various companies. He assisted Lip- ) told them in 1963 or '64, I would assume that would be-- ~j A i suppose; '65, whenever it happened. Q (Continuing) ‘63, would you have told them at that time a true account of your recollection of when you first met Jack Ruby? A If I told them it was a true account. I don't recall what I told then. Q Mr. Matthews, let me show you, for the record-- A Aid right. Q (Continuing) --a copy of an interview conducted with you by the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated De- cember 15, 1963, and ask you to read that at this time. A Twelve years; I don't remember saying that. No, sir, I don't remember saying that I'd known him l2 years and I don't think I had. Q If you had known him 12 years, that would have meant you first met him in 1951, is that correct? A Yes, sir, I suppose that is true, but I don't re- member saying this. I remember some of these other things I said. I 539 don't recall saying that I'd known him for 12 years. I don't remember that. It has been some time ago, you know. Q Is your testimony today that that statement-—- MR. CLAIBORNE (interrupting): Counsel, could I have a copy? MR. WOLF: Surely. BY MR. WOLF: Q Is your testimony today that that statement would be incorrect? A I can't really say, sir, to tell you the truth. It has been some time ago and if I said I'd known him 12 years--like I say, some of those things that they asked me I remember saying. I don't remember saying’ I'd known him 12 years. I was not a close friend of his. I never had any mix with him at ah or anything. I just don't remember how long I'd known him. You go a year or two and don't see somebody sometimes. I didn't know him that well. Q What was the nature of your interaction with Jack Ruby? A Nothing. He was a man that was well known around on the streets of Dallas. If you pass by him on the street he's liable to introduce himself to you, so if I'd pass him I'd say hello. I don't know what else to tell you. Q Were you familiar with the clubs in Dallas that 540 Jack Ruby visited? A I've heard that he had some clubs. I have never been in one of then. Q You have never been in the Carrousel Club? A I don't know where the Carrousel Club was actual- ly. Q Did you know of any other clubs that Jack Ruby had? A He has had several clubs around Dallas but I don't recall the names. Now, where the Carrousel Club--I didn't know he had--I don't recall the names of any of them. I don't remember ever being in any club Jack Ruby had. If I have been, I don't remember it. Q Did you ever live in Cuba? A Yes, ane Q What period of time was that? A 1958 and '59. Q Was that continuous that you lived there during that time? A No; I went to Cuba in 1958 and when Castro,--they, had the revolution, I came back for a few months and then went back and stayed until November 1959. Q Do you recall what time you returned to the States? You said Castro had the revolution. a ts. 541 A Castro took over in the revolution, I think it was January 1, 1959, which I returned to the United States and I stayed--I don't remember the exact date that I went back; maybe a month or so. Q Did you come to the United States directly after the revolution, would it have been January of '59? A Yes, sir. Q And you stayed Marty United States approximately how long? | A I'd say a month or two. I don't remember now; until things got settled down. I had a place of business there. Q And then you returned to Cuba? A Yes, sir. Q What did you do in Cuba upon your return? A I owned two bars there. Q Which bars were those? A I Sutee a bar in the Plaza Hotel in the lobby and I owned a bar on Henio Street. H-e-n-i-o or something, I don't remember how you spell it. Q What was the name of that bar, do you recall? A No; Sportsman's Club, I think. Q While in Cuba did you know Mr. Lewis McWillie? A Yes, ‘sir. 2 Q How did you know Mr. McWillie? 042 A He lived in Dallas. I had known him for several years in Dallas. Q Was that prior to your going to Cuba? A Yes, sir. Q When you first went to Cuba, did you have a job before you left for Cuba? A NG, jsir? Q Upon your arrival in Cuba, who did you stay with or who did you first meet? A I stayed in a hotel by myself. Q Did you have any meetings with Mr. McWillie at that time? A No, sir. Mr. McWillie wasn't even in Cuba when I went there. Q And you established the bars by yourself? A Yes, sir. Q During the period of time you were in Cuba, 1959, did you meet Mr. McWillie often? A No. Q What was the first time that you met Mr. McWillie in Cuba? A I don't know how to answer that question. You are talking about something that happened 18 or 19 years ago and I really can't truthfully answer. Q Well, Mr. McWillie was a friend of yours from 543 Dallas, isn't that true? A I knew him in Dallas, yes; ‘sir: Q Did he call you when he arrived in Cuba? A No. | Q How did you first find out he was in Cuba? A I don't know. I might have just run into hin. You're talking about something that happened 18, 19 years ago. I don't really remember. Q I understand that. Do you recall any of your discussions with Mr. McWillie? A No. I didn't have that many discussions with him. Q Approximately how often did you see him? A Oh, I'd probably pass by him once every two or three months or so. I don't know. Q Do you know, did Jack Ruby ever visit Cuba? A 1 didn't see him. Q Have you heard that he visited Cuba? A I have heard since this thing came out that he was there, yes, sir. Q He did not visit ou while he-- A (Interrupting) No, sir, I did not see him. I didn't even know he was there. Q Did you Pins discuss with Mr. McWillie the fact that Jack Ruby visited Cuba?’ 544 A I don't remember that I have. r=) Do you know Mr. Tony Zoppi? > Yes, sir. Q How do you know Mr. Zoppi? A Mr. Zoppi used to be the entertainment writer or critic for the Dallas Morning News before he came to work here in Las Vegas. I knew him very casually. Q Have you maintained contact with him since he came to Las Vegas? A No, sir. I just knew who he was, that's all. Q Have you ever met Mr. Zoppi? A I think I have. I think so, yes. Q Has Mr. Zoppi ever discussed with you a trip Jack Ruby took to Cuba? A No, sir. Mr. Zoppi has never discussed anything with me. I guess this is a period of 20, 25 years, I doubt if I have ever spoken to him three times, three or four. Q Where were you when you heard that Jack Ruby as- sassinated Lee Harvey Oswald? A In my home at that address you have there; Irving; Texas. Q When was the last time before the assassination that you saw Jack Ruby? A I don't know, sir. I don't know, because I had no meetings with him of any consequence. There wouldn't be 545 any way--I never stopped and talked to him or anything. I might have spoken to him on the street. I really don't know. Q What were your thoughts when you heard that Jack Ruby had killed Lee Harvey Oswald, given the fact that Jack Ruby was a person you knew even though casually? A I just couldn't believe it actually. Probably just like anyone else, I couldn't believe that anyone would do what he did. It was unbelievable to me that someone would walk in a police station and do that. If that is the reaction you're looking for, I couldn't believe it. Q Is there any way for you to determine when the last time prior to the assassination that you saw Jack Ruby was? A No, sir, I can't answer that. I don't know. Q Did you have any contact with Jack Ruby subse- quent to the assassination? A No, sir. Q Were you married to a woman known as Elizabeth Ann Matthews? A Yes. Q When did you divorce Ms. Matthews? A I don't remember the year. The questions you ask me happened 18, 20 years ago. It is impossible for me to remember the exact dates. 546 Q Was it in the early '50s, late '50s, or early '60s, can you eoted tase A Probably the late '50s. Q Late '50s? A Yes, sir. Q It was before John F. Kennedy became President, to the best of your recollection? A Maybe right about that time, to the best of my recollection, right close to that time, yes, sir. Q Where did your ex-wife continue to live after you divorced her? A I don't have any idea. Q Did you live, prior to your divorce, in Shreve- port, Louisiana? A No, sir. Q Are you aware, did yow ex-wife ever live in Shreveport, Louisiana? A I think that she could have. I might have heard that. I'm not sure. Q Subsequent to your divorce, did you maintain con- tact with your wife? A Before we were divorced? Q After your divorce. A No. Q You had no contact with her at all? 547 A I don't say that I haven't seen her or spoken to her, but as far as any contact-- Q Do you know where she is living now? A I have no idea. Q What was the last address that you know she was living at, what city? A I don't have any idea, sir. I don't know for sure. Q What was her maiden name? A Flanagan. Q Have you heard of the allegation that Jack Ruby made a phone call to your ex-wife the month before the as- sassination? A No, I didn't even know they knew each other. BY MR. PURDY: Q Mr. Matthews, was your relationship or your con- tact with Jack Ruby such that you ever made or received a phone call from him? A Not to my knowledge, no, sir, not that I ever re- call. Q What was Jack Ruby's reputation in the community? You said he was well known. What was he well known for? A I'd say he was well known because he speaks to you on the street. He was the kind of a man--I just knew ue he ran clubs. I don't know that much about his reputation. 548 He was a person who would make himself known if you were to ever around him. Q Do you know anyone who was close to Jack Ruby? A No, 1 couldn't--I don't know that I did. uw BY MR. WOLF: op) Q Did Jack Ruby have a good relationship with the =] Dallas Police Department? MR. CLAIBORNE: How would he know? A ; Not knowing him any better than I do; I don't see how you think I could answer a question like that. I don't know. BY MR. WOLF: Q To the extent you knew Mr. Ruby's reputation in the community. A I don't know his reputation in the community. l just knew him as a passing acquaintance. BY MK. PURDY: W bid you ever have the occasion to have dinner or coffee or a drink with Jack Ruby? A Not that I ever recall, I don't ever remember sit- ting down at a table with him. BY MR. WOLF: Q Mr. Matthews, we are going to commence a new area of questioning now which will relate to your knowledge of to Jack Ruby's involvement in activities that were going on 549 in Dallas in the 1950s and early 1960s. to To your knowledge, was there activity in Dallas which involved gun running or smuggling of arms or narcotics to Cuba? A Not to my knowledge. Q Was there any gun running or smuggling of arms or narcotics to Mexico? A Not to my knowledge. Q Do you know a John Thomas Mason? A John Thomas Mason? Q Yes. A No, sir, not that I remember. Do you know a Robert Ray McKeown? I don't remember the name, sir. No, I don't think Do you know a Joseph Raymond Merola? No, sir. Do you know a Dominick Bartone? No, sir. CO o F Again addressing the period from 1947 through the early 1960s, and breaking the periods down into categories to put Jack Ruby's activities in context-- MR. CLAIBORNE: '47 to '50? MR. WOLF: Yes, when Jack Ruby first moved to Dal- las. 550 BY MR. WOLF: Q Prior to 1947 to put Jack Ruby in historical con- text, was there in Dallas people engaged in gambling activ- ities? A I don't know that Jack Ruby ever was. Q The question is prior to 1947 were people in Dal- las engaged in gambling activities. MR. CLAIBORNE: Were there people involved; you are not talking about Ruby? MR. WOLF: The question is whether there were people involved in gambling-- MR. CLAIBORNE (interrupting): '47 to '50? MR. WOLF: Prior to 1947. MR. CLAIBORNE: I am going to object to that and ask for a statement of materiality. MR. WOLF: The statement of materiality is that Jack Ruby moves to Dallas in 1947. There is a substantial question whether the move to Dallas was in part an opera- tion of organized crime from Chicago moving into the Dallas area. To determine whether or not that is correct, it is necessary that the entire picture of crime operations in Dallas, both prior to 1947 and subsequent, be put into its proper context. MR. CLAIBORNE: That is rather broad and far ool reaching. As I understand it, your theory is in 1957 that Jack Ruby moved to Dallas, Texas, and that there was people involved in gambling and crime and that you want this wit- ness to explore whether or not there was any connection be- tween Ruby and gebling activities, is that what your-- MR. WOLF: Yes, that's right. The year was-- MR. CLAIBORNE (interrupting): Why don't you ask him that? MR. WOLF: The year was 1947, not 1957. That is why the first question addressed itself to 1947. MR. CLAIBORNE: Why don't you ask him whether or not he knew-- MR. WOLF: We will be addressing that question. It was, first, more important to determine the general pos- ture in Dallas as to organized or lack or organized crime activity in the Dallas area. MR. CLAIBORNE: All right. A Sir, I was in the Marine Corps during World War II and I didn't get back to the United States until the last part of 1945, or really the first part of '46, and there wasn't any organized gambling of any kind for anyone that I knew of then. BY MR. WOLF: Q That was in 1946? A Well, I got back from the Marine Corps I think 552 October, November of 1945, so I didn't really know about anything until 1946. Q And in 1946-'47 are you familiar with, during those two years, two years prior to Jack Ruby moving to Dallas, do you know, were individuals engaged in gambling activities in the Dallas area? A Well, sir, as far as people engaged in gambling, I suppose people gamble somewhere every day. I didn't see any gambling I don't think in the context you're talking about. Q What type of gambling generally did you see at that time? A I didn't see any gambling as far as any gambling Saairios being open, if that's what you have reference to. Q Generally, I would appreciate your description, and this is for historical context. A I suppose anybody might bet on a football game or a boxing match on TV or something. I don't know what kind of gambling you're talking about. Q Were there any gambling clubs? A No, sir, not to my knowledge. Q Have you ever heard of the Redman Club? A The Redman's Club; yes, sir. That wasn't a gam- bling club. Q What type of club was that? 503 A It was a social club for members only, but there was no dice games or roulette or any kind of gambling there. They might have had some friendly poker games occasionally between the members. It was not a gambling club. Q Are you familiar with the Top of the Hill Club? A I've heard the name. I've never been in it. Q Do you know if in the Top of the Hill Club any gambling activities took place? A If they took place that late, I didn't never know anything about it. 1'd heard of it earlier. After I gov back they were talking about it used to be gambling there. If there was gambling there at the time you are asking me, I didn't know it. Q Do you know the Plantation Club? A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard of a Mr. Hyman Fader? A Not that I remember. Q Let me return for one second to a question that I asked on gun running. Do you know a Johnnie Grasaffi? A Johnnie Grasaffi; yes, I think I do know who you're talking about, yes, sir. Q How do you know Mr. Grasaffi? A Just heard his name, maybe seen him a few times. Q Where did you see Mr. Grasaffi? A I don't remember. Q What period of time did you know him, when did you first meet him and approximately how often did you see him? A I suppose it was in the late '4Os, the best I re- member. JI wasn't a close friend of his or anything like that. Q Do you know what type of activities Mr. Grasaffi was engaged in? A No, sir. Q Had you ever heard of Mr. Grasaffi being engaged in any activities involving gun running or smuggling? A. NO? Sir. Q In 1947 was there in Dallas a crackdown on gamb- ling activities? A. I suppose there might have been. I wasn't in- volved in it so I don't know, but I have heard this, yes, that they had an election and there might have been some- thing going on before that that were no longer allowed. I have heard this, yes. Q Which election are you referring to? A I think it was 1946, I guess. I don't remember-- was that--I don't know. You probably have it written down in front of you there, Q Is this the election involving Sheriff Guthrie? A Yes, sir, I think that was the election I am talk- D900 ing about. Q What was the effect of that election, to the best of your knowledge? A I just heard people talk that a lot of things in- volved in gambling, whatever it amounted to, that it didn't gO on any more. Like I say, that's just about the time I got back from World War II. Q Do you recall, did people involved in gambling activities stop gambling or did some of them move out of the city, or what was the general result of the election? A I had no way of knowing, sir. That was just about the time I got back from World War II. I don't know who was doing it. Q Have you heard that ane of the people involved in gambling left Dallas and moved to Las Vegas? A No, I don't remember that I heard that. Q Do you know if that is true? A It possibly could be, yes, sir. Q Do you know Mr. Joseph Slaten? A Joe Slaten; yes, sir, I used to know hin. Q How did you know Mr. Slaten? A He owned a club there in Dallas. He used to have Clubs. There was never any ganbling involved in them. Q Do you know if Mr. Jack Ruby knew Mr. Joseph Sla- ten? 596 A I don't know, sir. =) Do you know a James Henry Dolan? > Yes, sir. Q How do you know Mr. Dolan? A I just met him. I don't remember how I met him. I knew him casually. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Mr. Dolan? A I don't know sir. Q Do you know a James Robert Todd? A Yes, sir. Q How do you know Mr. Todd? A He was just an acquaintance of mine from 25 years ago or so. I don't remember how I first met hin. Q Do you know if Mr. Todd was involved in any gam- bling activities? A Not to my knowledge. Q Was Mr. Todd ever involved in activities involv- ing safe cracking? A I don't know. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Mr. Todd? A I don't know that either. They might have known each other. I don't know. Q Are you familiar with the AGVA Union? A What is it? Q A-G-V-A. 507 MR. PURDY: American Guild of Variety Artists. A I think--it has something to do with performers and that; I know what the union is. > BY MR. WOLF: Q Were you familiar with it in Dallas? for) A No. I mean, I don't know anything about it. ~] Q You don't know anything about it? A No. I think this fellow Dolan worked for them when he was there but I don't know anything about it. BY MR. PURDY: Q Did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. Dolan? A No. BY MR. WOLF; Q Do you know any of the interaction Jack Ruby may have had with people involved in AGVA? A No, sir, I have no idea. Q Do you know an Isadore Max Miller? A Yes, sir. Q And how do you know her? A Just an old acquaintance that I have known around Dallas for years. It is impossible for me to remember how I met a man first 25 or 30 years ago. Q Was he involved in any gambling activities? A I never did see him involved in any. I don't 508 — know. i) W Do you know if Jack Ruby knew him? A I don't know that either. Q Do you know Mr. Harry Urban? an A Yes, sir. Q How do you know Mr. Urban? =] A The same way, just that he lived in Dallas all of his life and I have. I don't know. I can't tell you how I first met him. Q Did you know him socially or did you ever have any business with Mr. Urban? A No, sir. Q Which way did you know him? A I just knew him as a speaking acquaintance. Q Do you know if Mr. Urban was involved in any gambiing activities? A I never did any gambling with him. I couldn't say that. I don't know. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Mr. Urban? A I don't know. Q Did you know Mr. Harry Hall? A Not to my knowledge. Q Also known as Harry Sinclair? A No, sir. Q During the period of 1958 through 1960 were you 509 aware of any gambling activities in the City of Dallas? A I don't know how I could have, sir. I was living in Havana, Cuba. You just established that a few minutes Q But you could have been aware of gambling activi- ties? A No, I had no way of being aware of it. Q Do you know Mr. Paul Rowland Jones? A I have heard his name. I don't know him, no. Q You have never met Mr. Jones? A No, sir, not that I remember. Q Did Mr. Ruby know Mr. Jones? A I have no way of knowing that. . Q Do you know Mr. James Breen? A James what? Q Breen, B—-r—e-e-n. A No, not that I remember. Q Was there in the period 1958 through 1960 any drug trafficking ongoing in the city of Dallas? A Sir, you just established that I lived in Havana, Cuba, in those years and I don't know how you would expect me to know anything like that. Q Some of your associates may have spoken to you-- A (Interrupting) How would any associates--I was living in Havana, Cuba. I don't even know if I saw anyone sai 560 from Dallas in that period of time. tht Q You batt you saw Mr. McWillie, who was from Dallas. r-\ A McWillie was living in Havana, Cuba, when I saw him;osirs Q After your return to Dallas in 1961--is that ~] right? @_ A 1960, November of 1960. © Q And how do you recollect that date? A I just remember that it was just about the time of Kennedy's election. That's the reason I remember. Q After your return to Dallas from 1960 to 1963 were you aware of any gambling activities in the City of Dallas? A No, S42. Q Were you aware of any drug trafficking involving people in the City of Dallas? A No, sir. Q Do you know a Helen Alfonse Roan? A No, sir. Q Had you ever heard that Jack Ruby was involved in gambling activities in the City of Dallas? A No, sir. Q Had you ever heard that he was involved in drug trafficking? 561 A No, sir. Q Had you ever heard that he was involved in pros- titution activities? A No, sir. Q You have already testified that you could not characterize Jack Ruby's general relationship with the Dal- las police. However, let me ask, was it practice, to your knowledge, in Dallas to have individuals give kickbacks to the Police Department, individuals who ran particular clubs? A No, sir, not to my knowledge. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby ever gave any kickbacks to the police? A I would have no way of knowing that, sir. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby was ever a police in- formant? A I have no way of knowing that. Q Do you know Mr. Sam Campisi? A Yes; sir. Q How do you know Mr. Campisi? A I went to school with Campisi, Sam Campisi, when we were kids. I have known him all my life. Q Have you ever had any business dealings with Mr. Campisi? A Business dealings, no, I don't remember that we ever had any business dealings. He was a friend of mine. 062 I knew him until the time he died. I went to his fimeral. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Mr. Campisi? A I don't know. They could have. They were both in the kind of business that they're in the public eye. They could have known each other. One of them had clubs. The other had a restaurant. I don't know anything about their relationship. Q Do you know Mr. Joe Campisi? A Yes, sir; he is Sam's brother. I know him well. Q Was your relationship with Joe Campisi the same as your relationship with Sam? A Joe was a little older, but yes, sir, I've known him for years. Q Do you know if Mr. Ruby knew Mr. Joe Campisi? A They could have, sir. I don't know anything about their relationship. Q Do you know Mr. Joseph Civello? A No, sir. I've heard his name. Q You have never met him? A I might have met him at some time. I can't say that I haven't met him but I wasn't a friend of his or close associate. Q Do you know if Mr. Ruby knew Mr. Civello? A No, sir, I don't know that. Q Do you know Mr. Dusty Miller? 063 NO?*sir:** Have you ever heard that name? I don't remember that I did. I don't remember. Do you know Mr. Lenny Patrick? ao oO >pe No, not to my knowledge. Have you ever heard the name? ©> Not that I remember. Do you know Mr. David Yaras? Oo - No, sir. Have you ever heard the name? Ee > Not to my knowledge. Do you know Mr. Barney Baker? No, sir. Have you ever heard that name before? Pp Oo 2> Not that I remember. Q Do you know Mr. Nofio Pecora? A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard the name before? A Not to my knowledge. Q You do know and currently work for, in fact, Mr. Benny .Binion, is that correct? | A Yes, sir, I know Mr. Benny Binion. I work for him now. Q When did you first meet Mr. Binion? A It was out here, I guess. I don't remember what 564 year. It was 20, 25 years ago, I guess, 20 or 25. I don't remember. Q When you say "out here," do you mean Las Vegas? A Las Vegas, yes, sir. Q At that time you were living in the City of Dal- A NSGc S12". Q How did you first meet Mr. Binion in Las Vegas? A. I don't remember. He is in business. I guess I maybe visited, someone introduced us, I guess. I don't know. Q Was he living in Las Vegas at that time? A Benny Binion; yes, sir, he had a place of busi- Q And you were here on-- A (Interrupting) Visiting. Q Did you maintain contact with Mr. Binion after you returned to Dallas? A No, sir. Q When did you next see Mr. Binion? A I don't know. I came out here quite often. Q When you first moved to Las Vegas, did you im- mediately go to work for Mr. Binion? A No, sir. Q Who did you first work for in Las Vegas? : 565 A Johnie Lane in a racing sports club. The name of it was the Paddock Racing Sports Club, on First Street. Q How long did you work there? A Three and a half years. Q Who did you work for after that time? A Benny Binion. Q Have you maintained contact with Mr. Lewis Mc- Willie in Las Vegas? A No, sir. Q When was the last time you spoke to Mr. McWillie? A Well, he worked at the Horseshoe for a while. I believe that is the last time that I've seen him. Q What time period was that that he worked there? A Let's swe, I guess he has been gone away from there over a year ago, I suppose. He was working there when--—we were working the same place together. I saw him then. I don't recall seeing him any since then. Q While you were in Cuba did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. McWillie? A No, sir. Q Subsequent to your return from Cuba and his re- turn from Cuba, did you ever have any business dealings with him? A NO, Sifts Q Did Mr. McWillie ever discuss Jack Ruby with you? 566 A No, sir. LS) Q Do you know Mr. Ralph Paul? A No, sir. a r=) Have you ever heard that name? > No, sir. lop) Q Do you know Mr. Normen Rothman? ~j A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard that name before? A. Not to my knowledge. Q Do you know Mr. James Bradin? A No, sir. 2) Mr. Eugene Hale Brading? > No} sir. , Q Do you know a Mr. Ben Whittaker? A Yes, I've heard his name. I don't know that I have ever met him personally. Q Do you know what activities Mr. Whittaker was en- gaged in? A He owned a hotel there in Dallas that I knew of. That's the reason he was well known. He owned some race horses. That's the way I heard his name. Q Did you hear that Mr. Whittaker was involved in gambling prior to 1947? A Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Q Do you know a Pat McFay Kirkland? 567 \ 1 A What name? 2 Q Pat McFay Kirkland. 3 A No, sir. 4 Q Have you ever heard that name before? 5 A Not that I remember. 6 Q Prior to your moving to Cuba what were you doing 7 in Dallas, Texas? 8 A I was in the bail bond business. 9 Q And why did you decide to move to Cuba? 10 A I don't know. I just did, that's all. ‘The busi- 11} ness I was in wasn't doing any good. Lg Q Did you contact anybody in Cuba prior to moving sg there? Y A No. ? | Q Had you ever been in Cuba prior to moving there? * A No, sir. 4 Q Did you just fly yourself down and move into a I hotel? ‘4 A I just went down to look. I heard there were op- 20 There was a lot of tourist activity. portunities there. Q The first time you went down, in effect, you wound up staying for about a year, is that correct? A No, sir, I came back and got my clothes and things like that and then went back and made a deal with somebody about a club. 568 Q The first time you went down was to establish a business opportunity? A Yes, sir. Q How long were you down on that trip? > A week or two, the best I remember. o>) Q How long did you return to Dallas for? A Just long enough to get things packed, a day or so, and went back. @ Q Who did you see on that first trip to establish your business opportunity? A I don't remember the name. It was a Cuban. Those names are very difficult to remember. I made arrangements to buy a club from hin. Q Was it a Cuban National? A I don't know, sir. Q Was it a businessman or someone affiliated with the government? A No, no, he wasn't affiliated with the government. He owned a club. Q He owned a club and he sold the club to you? A Yes. Q Which club was that? A That was the one on Henio Street, the Sportsman's Club. Q Was that the only club you bought that trip? 569 A Yes, sir. i) Q When did you buy your second club? A The first part of 1959. Q And you kept the other club in operation as well as the second? A Yes; sir? Q After you permanently moved to Cuba did you ever a0 return to the United States until Castro took over? © A Now, I returned when Castro took over. That is the only time. Q But you didn't come back for a visit or anything? A No. Q Do you recall the date on which you bought the second club? You said it was 1959. A It was the first part of 1959 right after I re- turned--1 don't remember the exact date. I returned from the United States the first couple of days of 1959. I stayed a week or two and went back. It was right in that period of time; January or February. Q You bought the second club in Cuba after Castro had taken over? A Yes, sir. Q Did you feel that was a good investment to make at that time? A It wasn't that much money involved. It was a 570 lease thing from the hotel. I had to buy the merchandise and the right to it. Q What hotel was that? A The Plaza Hotel. Q In your arranging the lease was it necessary to deal with any of the new Cuban government officials? A No, sir. Q The first club you owned outright, is that right? A VOS, wSi0. Q And the second club you just leased? A Yes, sir. Q Did you ever have any association with the Dovil Hotel? A I lived there for a while. Q Did you ever operate any club there? A No, sir. Q Did you ever have any association with the Sans Souci Hotel? A No, sir. Q Do you know Mr. Salvador Amarena? Let me spell the last name-- A (Interrupting) It doesn't make any difference. You don't have to spell it because I don't know anybody who has a name close to that. Q He is also known as Sammy Paxton. 571 A Oh, yes, I do know who you're talking about. He to was an acquaintance of mine, yes. Q How did you know Mr. Paxton? A He had a club down there in Cuba. One of them wasn't too far from mine. Q Do you know what club he worked at? A I didn't know he worked at a club. He owned a club there. He had a club; a drink place, not a gambling Club. Q Do you know the name of it? A No, I don't recall that. Did Mr. Paxton known Mr. Santos Trafficante? ©> I don't know. Do you know Mr. Nick Cammata? ©> No, sir. C-a-m-m-a-t-a? NO; Sif. Do you know Mr. Michael McLaney? A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard that Mr. McLaney was an owner of the National Casino? A I'd heard that while I was living down there but. I never met him. Q Do you know Mr. Dino Cellini? A No;4sir; 572 Q Have you heard that name before? A I don't remember. I could have, yes, sir. I think I have heard that name. Q But you have never met Mr. Cellini? A NoOwer8ir. Q Do you know Mr. Santos Trafficante? A No, Jsir.. Q Have you heard that name before? A Yes, sir. Q Do you know Mr. Frank Ragano? A Frank who? Q Ragano, R-a-g-a-n-o. A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard that name before? A No, sir. Q Did you ever meet Mr. Meyer Lansky? A No, sir. Q Have you ever spoken with Mr. Lansky? A No, sir. Q Did you ever meet or speak with Mr. Jake Lansky? A No, sir. Q Were you familiar with the Tropicana Club in Havana? A No, sir. Familiar with it, I knew it was there. I didn't have anything to do with it. 573 © Do you know who owned or operated the Tropicana? to > Noes. Q Have you heard the name John Roselli? A No, sir. Q You have never heard Mr. Roselli's name? A Oh, yes, in a paper here lately I saw something about him, yes. I never met him or heard of him before. Q Do you recall what it said in the paper? A It said he got killed. They found him out in the ocean or something. I saw that in the paper. Q You never met or spoke with Mr. Roselli? A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard of a Mr. Sam Giancana? A I have heard the name, Yes, sir. I've seen him in the newspapers. . Q Have you ever spoken to Mr. Giancana? A No, sir. Q Do you know Mr. Robert Maheu? A No, sir. You have heard that name? I have heard the name, seen it in the papers. Do you know Mr. Frank Rosenthal? Yes, sir. How do you know Mr. Rosenthal? fF IP —- Dm -P - Well, Frank Rosenthal was running the Rose Bowl : 574 Race and Sports Book when I was working that business, and we had occasion to do business with each other. Q That was here in Vegas? A Here in Law Vegas, yes. Q Did you know Mr. Rosenthal while you were in Cu- ba? A NOS -S1T. Q When was the first time you remember meeting Mr. Rosenthal? A When I was working at the Paddock Race and Sports Book and he had the Rose Bowl. I guess the first year was Lo vas Q Do you know if Mr. Rosenthal had any activities in Cuba? A No, sir, I have no knowledge of that. Q Do you know if Mr. Rosenthal knew Jack Ruby? A NO>* Sar. Q Do you know Mr. Eugenio Leal, L-e-a-1? A No. Q Have you ever heard that name before? A Not to my knowledge. Q Have you ever heard the name Evaristo Garcia? A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard the name Rafael Garcia Bongo? A No, sir. 575 Q Have you ever heard the name Raphael Gener? A No, sir. Q Have you ever heard the name Angelo Bruno? A No, sir, not that I remember. Q Mr. Bruno is from Philadelphia. Have you ever heard that-- A (Interrupting) I have never been to Philadelphia in my life. Q Have you ever heard he may have had an interest in some of the Cuban casinos? A Not to my knowledge, no sir. © Have you ever heard the name Gil Beckly? No, sir. Have you ever heard the name say’ Benton? Sam what? Benton, B-e-n-t-o-=-n. Pn No, sir. Have you ever heard the name Norman Rothman? No, sir. PF © Cc Have you ever heard the name Sam Manarino. MR. CLAIBORNE: Counsel, I would like a statement of materiality and the purpose for the record. This man, you're asking him name after name after name that he doesn't know. 25 MR. WOLF: He-- 576 MR. CLAIBORNE (interrupting): Let me finish, if you will please. You young men have a job to do, and I appreciate that. 1 don't want to interfere. That is. why I haven't made any objection, and I won't if I understand the situa- tion, but it seems to me terribly time consuming to ask a _man a whole lot of questions that you know in advance that he doesn't know or you don't have some information that he knows. MR. WOLF: If I may respond. MR. CLAIBORNE: Those kinds of question are con- sidered by every court that has heard such propositions to be just not right. If you have reason to believe he knows some of these people and he can be helpful in giving you informa- tion in that area, he is perfectly willing to do so, but please don't take up our time just running through a list of Italians. It seems like now you have a list of all of the Italians who have immigrated to this country maybe in a certain year. MR. WOLF: Well, I will point out two propositions. First of all, as you are certainly aware, this is not a court-- 3 - CLAIBORNE: I understand that. 5 - WOLF: This is a legislative proceeding-- O77 MR. CLAIBORNE (interrupting): I am just asking Le) for a statement so the record will show it. MR. WOLF: I am just saying it is a legislative proceeding and, of course, the standards for relevancy and pertinency are different in a legislative proceeding than in a court proceeding. MR. CLAIBORNE: Counsel, I am well aware of that. I have been Special Counsel in one of the Senate Committees in hearings myself. I am well aware of that. | MR. WOLF: These people we are listing--in re- sponse to your second point--are all individuals who are involved in Cuban activities. We do not know whether or not Mr. Matthews knew them. That is the purpose of asking these questions. MR. CLAIBORNE: But do they have any connection with Ruby? MR. WOLF: There is a connection with Ruby, yes, in some of them. As you are well aware, Mr. Matthews has responded that he knew some and ndtothers. We do not know which individuals. MR. CLAIBORNE: I think he has responded he has known one out of about the last 30 names you have read off. BY MR. WOLF: Q Have you heard of the name Mr. Charles Routine? A No, sir. 578 Q Have you heard the name Babe Baron? to A What is it? Q Babe Baron, B-a-r—o-n. A No, not that I know of. uv Q Are you familiar with General Baron? for) A No. MR. CLAIBORNE: General Baron who used to be at the Sands Hotel-- MR. WOLF: That could be. MR. CLAIBORNE (continuing): --here in Vegas? MR. WOLF: Yes. MR. CLAIBORNE: Did you know him when he was here? THE WIINESS: No, sir, I didn't know hin. BY MR. WOLF: Q Do you know a Willie Bischoff? A No. Q Did you know Mr. John Wilson Hudson? A No. Q Have you ever met with Mr. H. L. Hunt? A NO. esis. Q Do you know Mr. Hunt? A No, sir. Q Have you heard of Mr. Hunt? A Everybody has heard of him, sir. Q Were you ever present at a meeting where the pos- 579 — sibility of killing Castro was discussed? bh A No; *sir< You mean a meeting with Mr. Hunt? o- Q Either a meeting with Mr. Hunt or without Mr. Hunt. an A No, sir. Q You were never present at any meeting? A No, sir. Q Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy had you ever heard people discussing assassinating Fidel Castro? A Noy usin. Q Subsequent to the assassination of President Ken- nedy did you hear any people discussing the possibility of assassinating Fidel Castro? A No, sir. Q Had you ever heard that the assassination of President Kennedy was in retaliation for an attempted as- Sassination on Fidel Castro? A Noy? sir: Q Do you know Mr. John Eli Stone? A Yess .6ir. Q How do you know Mr. Stone? A He is just another man I've known for 30 years or so. I don't remember when I first met hin. 580 Q Did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. Stone? A No, business dealings, no, I didn't have any busi- ness dealings with him. Q Where did Mr. Stone reside? A Dallas, Texas. Q Did you ever go to Las Vegas with Mr. Stone? A With him; I don't remember that we got on the same plane and came together. I have seen him out here. Q Do you recall when--you said you came on the same plane. Do you-- A (Interrupting) I say I don't recall--you asked did I come with him. I said I don't remember that we came together on the same plane. I have seen him on a lot of occasions out here in Les Vegas. Q Did you ever take a joint trip, even if you weren't on the same plane, from Dallas to Las Vegas? A Not that I remember, no, sir. I won't say that that is impossible but I just don't remember it. Q Do you know if any people here in Las Vegas were interesting in funding Jack Ruby's legal fees? A No, sir, not to my knowledge. Q Do you know Mr. Joseph Gebron, G-e-b-r-o-n? A Yes, I knew him. He is dead now. 581 Q How did you know him? A Just another old acquaintance around Dallas I have known for years. Q Was he involved--prior to 1947 do you know if he was involved in any gambling activities? A I don't know. Q Do you know if he was involved in any gambling activities from 1947 through 1960? A I don't know, sir. Q Was he involved in any gambling activities subse- quent to 1960? A I don't know, sir. Q Was he arrested with you in 1967 on bookmaking charges? A He got arrested on the street and they arrested me at the same time. They didn't arrest us together. They took us to jail together. Q What was the charge you were arrested on? A They arrested us for investigation of bookmaking and there was no charge ever made. Q Have you ever heard of the Skynight Club? A Yes, sir. Q Do you know if Jack Ruby ever went there? am. Not that I know of. Q You stated that you knew Mr. Johnnie Grasaffi? 082 A I knew him casually, yes, sir. te Q Do you know what activities Mr. Grasaffi engaged in? A I have no idea. Q Have you ever heard that before the mob assumed control of Dallas that Mr. Grassaffi would have to be run out of town? A I didn't know the mob ever got control of Dallas. I didn't hear the other, either. No, sir, I didn't hear either one of them. Q You currently work for Mr. Binion, as you testi- fied. Do you know why Mr. Binion left Dallas in 1947? A I don't know, sir. Q Has he ever discussed that with you? A No. He doesn't have to discuss anything with me. Q Do you know if Mr. Binion was engaged in gambling activities in Dallas prior to 1947? A I don't know. I told you, when I returned back from the Marine Corps, he wasn't at that time. Q Mr. Binion never discussed with you his activi- ties in Dallas? A No, sir. Q Did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. Binion aside from your current employment? A No, sir. 083 Q Did Jack Ruby ever suggest doing any type of to business deal with you? A No, sir. Q Are you familiar with any business dealings that Jack Ruby engaged in? A No, sir. Q Have you heard of Mr. Carlos Marcelo? A I've heard the name, yes, sir. Q Do you know if Jack Rudy knew him? A I don't have any way of knowing that. Q Did anybody hire Jack Ruby to kill Lee Harvey Os- wald? A I don't know. Q Did anybody hire Lee Harvey Oswald to kill Presi- dent Kennedy? A I have no idea. Q Is there any general information you could tell us about Jack Rudy that would be helpful to the Committee in investigating the assassination of President Kennedy? A I don't know anything I could telpyou, sir. fi just don't know. He was a very slight acquaintance of mine, just a passing acquaintance. Q Can you characterize him personalitywise? A He was an outgoing sort of a man. That is one reason a lot of people knew him. He was an outgoing person- O84 _ ality and would make himself known or introduced to you if tw you were around him. Q Was he an emotional kind of person? A He seemed to be a nervous kind of a fellow. He 3) was aggressive, you know, he wanted to be introduced, he'd give you a card, "Come to my club," things like that. ~) _ That's all I really know about him. Q Was he a violent person? A I never saw--I don't have any way of knowing that. I never saw any occasion. Q Did you ever see him engaged in any fights or ar= guments? A NO; Sir. Q Did you know any of Jack Ruby's sisters or broth- A NO,) Sil. Q Mr. Matthews, I believe that concludes our depo- sition. If you would like to make any statement for the record that will be helpful to the Committee, it would be most appreciated. A I don't know what I can tell you, sir. Ifl could help you I would. MR. WOLF: Thank you very much, Mr. Matthews. As we explained, we will send you a copy of this deposition. Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of 19 __. My commission will expire . 08d United States of America, ) ( State of Nevada, ) ss. ( City of Las Vegas. ) I, Joseph L. Ward, U. S. Magistrate, do certify that, pursuant to notice, there came before me, in Room 4-003, Federal Courthouse, 210 Las Vegas Boulevard, in Law Vegas, State of Nevada, Russell Douglas Matthews, who was by me duly sworn to testify the whole truth of his know- ledge touching the matter herein; that he was examined and his examination at the time reduced to writing in Stenotypy by Naomi Bolstad and that such examination has been correct- ly transcribed and is fully and accurately set forth in the 52 preceding pages; that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness, that his said deposi- tion so given was by said witness subscribed and sworn to; that said deposition was taken on the day, between the hours and at the place in that behalf aforesaid; and that said deposition is now herewith returned. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto'set my hand at my office in this day of 1978. 586 United States of America, ) State of Nevada, ss. City of Las Vegas. I, Naomi Bolstad, do certify that I Se arere and correctly reported in Stenotypy the complete proceed- ings had in the taking of the deposition of Russell Douglas Matthews, and have accurately and correctly transcribed the same in the preceding 52 pages. Tg op Sr buted Naomi Bolstad, Court Reporter 587 vill. Robert Ray McKeown Biographical Summary (1105) Robert Ray McKeown was born on January 28, 1913. (1674) No details concerning his childhood or life before 1950 were known at the time of the committee’s investigation. (1106) In the early 1950’s, McKeown, who stated he was a mechani- cal engineer by profession, resided in Houston, Tex., where he owned a large machine shop.(/675) During the mid-1950’s, McKeown and one Van Zeivander traveled through Latin America introducing a novel coffee cleaning machine that Van Zeivander had designed. The success of this venture prompted McKeown to move to Santiago, Cuba, where he established a manufacturing plant, warehouse, and office to in- crease distribution of the machine. In 1957, however, McKeown lost the business when President Batista deported him for not providing kickbacks. (7676) (1107) McKeown next resided temporarily with his daughter, Jane Margaret Britt, in Miami, Fla., before again traveling the Caribbean countries in an attempt to regain possession of his Cuban business. (1677) When Federal agents arrested him in 1958 for conspiring to ‘smuggle guns to Castro, for which McKeown received a 2-year sus- pended sentence and a 5-year probation, McKeown owned a home in the Shady Lake section near Pasadena, Tex.(1678) In a 1976 inter- view, McKeown stated that when arrested, he was vice president of the Texas Western Drilling Co. of Oklahoma City. (1679) (1108) Shortly after this arrest and prior to his sentencing, Mc- Keown and a Jarrett formed a partnership and opened the J & M Drive-In on Red Bluff Road near Taylor Lake and Clear Lake, in the vicinity of Kemah and Seabrook, Tex. This business was sold a few years after its purchase when Jarrett died. (1680) (1109) During his probationary period, which extended to December ° 1963, McKeown continued.to live in the Houston, Tex., vicinity, stay- Ang with his sister, Laverne, at 9138 Wayfarer Street, Houston. (1687) In an FBI interview in January 1964, McKeown stated he resided in Bay Cliff, Tex., and that the Houston Slush Pump Co., 2112 Quitman Street, Houston, employed him as a salesman. (1682) McKeown had a brother, Harry, who was also residing in Houston in 1978. (1683) (1110) Since 1966, McKeown has lived in Miami, Fla.(1684) He was formerly employed by the API Co. as head of quality control, but stopped work 5 years ago after an operation on his lungs. (7685) in poor health McKeown has been living with his daughter. Treatment by the Warren Commission (1111) The FBI conducted the investigation of McKeown for the Warren Commission. He initially became a target of investigation when Jack Ruby stated in an interview with the FBI on December i 1963, that “at a time when Castro was popular in the United States,” he read of a person in the vicinity of Houston who had run guns to Castro. (1686) Ruby mentioned that he attempted to contact this per- son by telephone about the possibility of selling some jeeps or similar equipment to persons interested in their sale to Cuba. Ruby claimed nothing further developed from his efforts. (688 (1112) The Houston FBI office advised on January 17, 1964, that Ruby most likely was referring to Robert Ray McKeown. (1687) When the FBI located McKeown and interviewed him on January 24, 1964, © he stated that a person identifying himself as Rubenstein from Dallas had called him regarding assistance in obtaining the release of three persons from Cuba and that a few weeks later a person who would not identify himself personally visited him regarding the sale of jeeps to Castro. McKeown subsequently determined this individual was Jack Ruby.(1/688) This FBI interview also focused on Mc- Keown’s gunrunning activities and his associations with Fidel Castro” and Carlos Prio Socarras. 4 5 (1113) The FBI did not conduct any further interviews of Mc- Keown, nor did it ever confront Ruby with the contention that Ruby visited McKeown personally. The FBI did provide the Warren Com- mission with a report revealing that McKeown was under FBI in- vestigation in connection with the activities of Carlos Prio Socarras” and that McKeown had been charged, together with various other persons, with conspiracy to smuggle guns and related equipment to Cuba.(1689) The Warren Commission did not, however, interview McKeown or take his testimony. Further, the Commission did not question Ruby about McKeown either in an interview or in a hearing. Considering McKeown’s association with Prio and Castro, the po- tential Cuban connection McKeown could have provided Ruby, and the contradictions between Ruby’s interview and McKeown’s inter- view, it can be argued that both the FBI and the Warren Commission. failed to investigate this matter adequately. (1114) McKeown also stated that Lee Harvey Oswald contacted him in the fall of 1963 regarding the sale of rifles. The Warren Com- mission could not have investigated this, however, since the story did not publicly surface until 1975. Legal Activities (1115) McKeown ostensibly received various amounts of income _ from the numerous jobs enumerated earlier. No financial records con- cerning this income were, however, available. (7690) (1116) In his committee hearing, McKeown stated that Scott Ma- lone, a journalist, provided him with $100 in connection with Me- Keown's appearance on the British Broadcasting Co.’s production, “The Assassination of President Kennedy ... What Do We Know Now That We Didn’t Know Then.” (7697) McKeown also stated that he was presently under contract to write a book with Mark Lane which was to include McKeown’s statements regarding the Ruby and Oswald contacts. McKeown said a $50,000 and a $10,000 figure had been dis- cussed in connection with this contract. (1692) (1117) As already alluded to, McKeown cultured a close friendship with Carlos Prio Socarras. When McKeown entered a partnership to open the J and M Drive-In in 1958, Prio funded the venture with a loan.(1693) The Houston Post, September 20, 1959, also quoted Me- Keown as saying that Prio once promised him a one-half interest in the Seria Biltmore, a Havana hotel. (7694) (1118) McKeown also developed a close friendship with Castro. When Castro visited Houston in April 1959, McKeown met with him 589 it the Houston airport. A photograph in the Houston Chronicle re- vorded the event, and an article accompanying the photograph quoted Jastro as saying that when McKeown could move to Cuba, he would de given a post in the government or some franchise. (1695) (McKeown ‘ould not then legally leave the United States because of his pro- dation. | 1119) McKeown’s close association with Castro prompted many »eople to ask him for assistance in affairs pertaining to Cuba and sastro. For instance, McKeown stated that he contacted Castro after he United States broke diplomatic relations to obtain the release of hree persons being detained in Cuba who were close friends of Mc- Ceown’s brother.(7696) He also maintained that a Jack Porter, who ie says was a campaign manager for Eisenhower, contacted him round 1959 about approaching Castro.(1697) Other examples of uch contacts exist. (1698) 1120) Ina discussion during his committee hearing in which there vas a reference to Texas oil men, McKeown mentioned that he knew Mr. Murchison.(1699) Besides the political connections already re- tewed, McKeown did not acknowledge any other significant contacts nvolving legal activities. He also stated in his committee hearing hat he was not aware of any contacts between himself and the CIA, or any other foreign or domestic intelligence agencies. (1 700) legal Activities 1121) As mentioned earlier, in a letter from Hoover to Rankin on ipril 17, 1964, the FBI informed the Warren Commission that Mc- feown was one of the persons “in an extensive investigation con- ucted by the Bureau since 1952 concerning the activities of Carlos °rio Socarras.” (1701) The FBI said that Prio, along with others in- luding McKeown, was engaged in assisting Castro in his revolu- lonary pursuit against Batista. 1122) McKeown first became involved with Prio after Batista de- orted him (McKeown) from Cuba. He stated in a 1976 interview hat Prio had contacted him through a person named Mario (last name nknown) regarding repossession of his business. He met Prio at the shamrock Hotel in Houston where Prio told him how to locate astro. (7702) 1123) After the initial contacts, McKeown soon became involved in unrunning ventures aimed at overthrowing the Batista regime. He rst began supplying arms through operations based in Miami and ‘ampa, but later switched to Houston, Tex., because of law enforce- 1ent pressure. (7703) The FBI learned that the July 26 Movement was lanning a raid on Cuba from Texas. In connection with this raid, rmaments shipments were sent to McKeown.(/704) Other FBI files Iso documented McKeown’s involvement in similar illegal activities, 1705) particularly with Mario Villamia, a Miami citizen. 1124) On February 18, 1958, the San Antonio FBI office provided formation that Robert Ray McKeown had purchased a yacht called ae Buddy Dee. Customs officials seized this vessel a few days later 590 for smuggling guns while it was cruising to Houston from Pat- terson, La. Those on board included Manuel Arques and Ruby Archer.(1706) On February 25, 1958, in connection with the seizure, Federal agents arrested McKeown and charged him with conspiracy to smuggle guns and related equipment to Cuba for the benefit and use of Castro.(1707) McKeown’'s codefendants in this action included Carlos Prio, Jorge Sotus, Manuel Arques, Mario Villiami and Evelyn Archer. (1708) On October 24, 1958, the U.S. District Court, Southern District of Texas, convicted and sentenced McKeown to 60 days in jail, fined him $500, and imposed a 5-year probation period, to termi- nate December 11, 1963. (1709) (1125) After his conviction, it does not appear that McKeown con- tinued to engage in illegal activities. In his committee hearing, he did mention that around 1968 a man named Torrento approached him with $100,000 to kill Castro; he refused the offer.(17/0) McKeown also stated he was aware of a girl named Marceau Albinez who was in- volved in a plot to kill Castro which never fully developed. (1711) (1126) Regarding sources of income for the gunrunning operations, McKeown stated in an interview that he received money from his Cuban contacts in the office of an attorney who was counsel for Haiti and that the money was always bound in Pan American Bank Build- ing wrappers. McKeown also stated that some U.S. Senators, whom. he could not recall, assisted in supplying the arms. (1712) ; (1127) In his testimony, McKeown said he had met and was familiar with the following persons connected with revolutionary Cuban activi- ties: (1) Antonio de Varona; (2) Joseph Merola; (3) William Mor- gan; and (4) Mario Valamois.(/772) He said he knew of the follow- ing individuals but had not met them: (1) Frank Sturgis, (2) Pedro Diaz Lanz, and (3) Dominik Barton. (1714) Connections With Organized Crime (1128) McKeown did not seem to have any significant connection to organized crime. In an interview, he did state, however, that the “mob” supplied arms for gunrunning activities, but he could not pro- vide any supportive evidence. (1715) McKeown also stated in his testi- mony that there were several individuals who had wanted the casinos opened. One called Matthews asked McKeown to visit Cuba and brief Castro on the benefits Castro would derive from opening them. McKeown could not comply because of his probation. (1776) (1129) While being questioned, McKeown said he never met and never heard of the following organized crime figures who were associ- ated with Cuba: (1) Lewis McWillie, (2) Dino Cellini, (3) Loran Hall, (4) Sergio Arcacha Smith, (5) R. D. Matthews, (6) Joseph Civello, (7) Jack Todd, and (8) Jim Braden. (1130) McKeown said he had heard of the following individuals, but did not know them and had probably never met them: (1) Santos Trafficante, (2) Carlos Marcello, (3) Vincent Marcello, (4) Michael McLaney, (5) Sam Giancana, (6) Meyer Lansky, (7) David Ferrie, (8) Guy Banister, (9) Clay Shaw, (10) George de Mohrenschildt, (11) James Robert Dolan, (12) Sam Campisi, (13) Joseph Campisi, (14) Candy Barr, and (15) John Roselli. (1777) 591 Relationship to Ruby (1131) Both Ruby and McKeown have related different accounts concerning the Ruby-McKeown contact briefly described earlier. Ruby had never specifically mentioned McKeown but spoke only of an indi- vidual in the vicinity of Houston who had run guns to Castro. (1132) In an attempt to ascertain the identity of this person, As- sistant District Attorney William Alexander, Dallas, told the FBI on January 14, 1964, that a source informed him that Ruby had pre- viously contacted a “Davis,” an ex-convict believed to be living in Beaumont, Tex. Alexander said he thought the Houston FBI office handled an investigation of Davis which resulted in a conviction for zunrunning activities. (7718) (11383) On January 17, 1964, the Houston office advised that the “Davis” could not be identified in Houston or Beaumont, Tex. It did state, however, that Ruby probably was referring to a Robert Ray McKeown, who had been convicted of smuggling arms to Cuba in October 1958. An agent of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit of the IRS, who entered the evidence in the McKeown case, also stated that he could not recall a “Davis” in the McKeown case and failed to locate his name after searching his files.(7719) The investigation prompted che FBI to contact Robert Ray McKeown. | (1134) To illustrate most effectively the various accounts of the Ruby-McKeown association, this material first relates Ruby’s version and then chronologically details McKeown’s numerous statements. (1135) Ruby’s version.—During an interview with the FBI on De- zember 21, 1963, Ruby commented that during “a time when Castro was popular in the United States,” he had read of a person from the Houston area who had been involved in running guns to Castro. Ruby said that he attempted to contact this person by telephone in the hope of making some money by selling jeeps to persons interested in their importation to Cuba. Ruby stated that nothing more happened. (1720) (1186) McK eown’s version—McKeown had related his versions nu- merous times since first describing the events to the FBI in January 1964. These various accounts, summarized below, contain inconsisten- sles which are discussed later. (1137) —FBI Report, January 28, 1964, Ruby file, Bureau No. HO 14-939, S.A. Daniel W. Fults, Jr. As a result of the Ruby allegation, the FBI contacted Mc- Keown and asked him to relate any association he had with Ruby. McKeown stated that about 1 week after Castro as- sumed control of Cuba, Anthony “Boots” Ayo, a patrolman for the Harris County sheriff’s office, informed him that someone from Dallas, Tex., had been calling the Harris County sheriff’s office in an effort to locate him. Ayo told McKeown that he didn’t know the caller’s name or the nature of his business. McKeown advised Ayo to give the caller the telephone number of the J and M Drive-In, McKeown’s place of business. McKeown next stated that about 1 hour later a person called, identified himself as Jack Rubenstein from Dallas, 592 Tex., affirmed McKeown’s connection with Castro, and so- licited McKeown’s assistance in obtaining the release of three people Castro had detained in Cuba. Rubenstein offered Mc- Keown $5,000 per person, stating that someone in Las Vegas would provide the money. McKeown said he would accept the offer on the condition that he first received some money. Rubenstein replied by saying he would think about it and call again. About 3 weeks after this call, McKeown stated that a man visited the J and M and offered him $25,000 for a letter of introduction to Cuba. The visitor, who did not identify him- self, stated that he had access to a large number of jeeps in Shreveport, La., which he wished to sell to Cuba. McKeown said that he would provide the letter upon a $5,000 cash down- payment. McKeown said that the man “never returned nor did he ever see him again.” McKeown next told the FBI that based on the numerous press photographs following the Oswald murder, the visitor strongly resembled Jack Ruby. McKeown remarked, how- ever, that “he is not certain that the above-described telephone caller from Dallas or the man who personally appeared at the J and M Drive-In was identical with the Jack Ruby who killed LHO.” McKeown also stated that he knew no one by the name of Davis who was convicted for running guns to Cuba. (1727) (1188) —CBS News Inquiry, “The American Assassins,” part I, 19, 1975. “The American Assassins” special principally related the Oswald-McKeown connection and only mentioned that Jack Ruby had come to see McKeown in 1959, offering him $25,000 for a letter of introduction to Fidel Castro. The transcript then noted that Ruby “never came back” to obtain the letter. (1722) (1139) —Interview of Robert Ray McKeown by Gaeton Fon HSCA staff, August 27, 1976, Miami, Fla. In this interview McKeown siated that a deputy. sheriff came to the J and M Drive-In and informed him that someone from Dallas was attempting to telephone him. McKeown then told Ayo to provide the caller with his number. About 30 minutes later McKeown received a call from a person who said his name was Rubenstein and he was from Dallas. After commenting that he thought McKeown’s name was Davis, the caller stated that he knew five people being detained in Cuba and wanted to know if McKeown could obtain their release. Rubenstein then terminated the call after saying he would visit McKeown to review details. Soon after this call a person personally contacted McKeown and told‘him he had access to some jeeps in Shreveport, La., and some slot machines in New Mexico. This person told Mc- Keown he desired to sell the equipment to Castro and con- 593 sequently wanted a letter of introduction. McKeown replied by saying this would cost $5,000 up front. The visitor men- tioned that he knew some members of the Mafia in Cuba and had visited the country once while on vacation. The visitor also mentioned that Goldberg was the individual who pos- sessed the jeeps in Louisiana. McKeown thought this visit occurred in January 1959, and displayed to the committee investigator a newspaper clipping dated January 3, 1959, and headlined, “Gunrunner Hails Castro Victory.” This may have been the imnetus for the Rubenstein visit. During this interview, McKeown also commented that this visitor came to see him three times, a statement he claimed he had told the Warren Commission. Further, McKeown stated he knew it was Ruby because the person identified himself as “Rubenstein from Dallas.” McKeown then stated that he never gave any letter or assistance to Ruby because he didn’t receive any money. (1732) 1140) Interview of Robert Ray McKeown by the British Broad- isting Corp., December 1977 (broadcast January 1978). | McKeown stated that a person identifying himself as Jack Rubenstein called him from Dallas regarding his association with Castro and his assistance in releasing some people from Cuba. McKeown said he corld not discuss the matter because of his upcoming trial (McKeown was sentenced in October 1958). ; McKeown next stated that the following day a person who claimed he was from Dallas and who McKeown said was Ruby visited him and mentioned that he wanted to visit Cuba on vacation and wanted a letter of introduction to Castro for which he would pay $25,000. Ruby also mentioned that he had some jeeps and some slot machines which he wished to sell to Castro. Further, Ruby stated he had never been to Cuba. Ruby then left for Houston and said he would return for the letter. McKeown told him that he would provide the letter for $12,500 up front and $12,500 later, with the entire transaction contingent on his meeting Castro. McKeown said that Ruby did return the next day, that they talked and visited some Cuban friends of McKeown’s, but that Ruby did not provide any cash. After returning again the following day, Ruby still failed to produce any money. McKeown concluded by saying @ never provided a letter and that Ruby never returned. (1724) 1141) —Immunized testimony of Robert Ray McKeown before the ‘louse Select Committee on Assassinations, April 12, 1978. In this testimony, McKeown said a person identifying him- self as Jack Rubenstein (7725) called him and said he wanted a letter of introduction to assist in acquiring the return of several people from jail.(1726) Rubenstein said that he would Soon visit him to discuss the matter and also mentioned that he thought McKeown’s name was Davis. (1727) 594 A few days later a man visited McKeown and said he was the one who had called him. Rubenstein said he wanted a letter of introduction to Castro for which he would pay $25,000. McKeown responded by agreeing to provide the letter if Rubenstein would furnish $10,000 up front.(1728) McKeown also mentioned that the man said he had access to various jeeps, slot machines, and similar items.(1729) McKeown maintained that Rubenstein revisited him three or four times and stated that he did not tell the FBI on January 28, 1964, that the man never came to see him again,(1730) which the FBI document reflects. (7731) McKeown never received any money and therefore never provided any letter. McKeown also mentioned that he believes he told the FBI about the Ruby visit sometime before the assassination and that he visited the FBI the day after the assassination to in- form them about Ruby. No records concerning personal FBI contact with McKeown exist beside the January 1964 inter- view. (1732) (1142) As mentioned above, neither the Warren Commission nor the FBI reinterviewed McKeown or confronted Ruby with McKeown’s contentions of multiple visits. The FBI did interview Anthony J “Boots” Ayo, who corroborated McKeown’s statement that Ayo con tacted him regarding someone calling from Dallas. (1733) (1143) No further investigation was apparently conducted. (1144) Jnconsistencies—Besides the obvious differences betwee Ruby’s and McKeown’s recollection of their mutual association, im portant substantive inconsistencies permeate McKeown’s accounts Some of the central points that disappear or are altered in McKeown’ various statements are: (1) How and when McKeown determined th person who visited him was Jack Ruby; (2) The number of peopl Ruby wished to remove from Cuba; (3) When these Ruby contact occurred; (4) How many times Ruby visited McKeown in person (5) The amount of time between the phone call and the personal visi or visits; (6) Whether McKeown ever heard Ruby ask about a Davis and (7) When McKeown first spoke to the FBI about these contacts Relationship to Oswald (1145) McKeown first publicly acknowledged a contact between him self and Lee Harvey Oswald on the CBS News special, “The America Assassins,” aired November 1975. As with the alleged Ruby contact McKeown’s statements about Oswald summarized below, contal inconsistencies. feck —CBS News Inquiry, “The American Assassins,” Novembe A few weeks before the assassination, McKeown stated that two men visited his house around 11 o’clock one Saturday morning. A small, blond-headed man identified himself as Lee Oswald and said that he, McKeown, was the person he sought. Oswald then said he wanted some bazookas and machineguns. After McKeown refused to help, Oswald and the second man, a tall Latin named Hernandez, left, only to return in about 5 minutes. This time Oswald asked McKeown to acquire “four powerful maybe .300 Savage automatics with a telescopic 595 sight on them.” Oswald told McKeown he would pay $1,000 for each rifle. McKeown reiterated that he would not get involved. ) McKeown also said a friend of his, Sam Neill, witnessed this encounter. Neill corroborated this story on the CBS spe- cial and said he had “no doubt” that the person was Lee Har- vey Oswald. McKeown likewise said it was “certainly him.” In response to a question, McKeown said he believed that in his 1964 interview, the FBI had asked him whether he had ever had any knowledge or contact with Oswald. McKeown said he was scared and probably responded by saying he had never seen him. Neill likewise was afraid to become involved. (1734) 147) —Interview of Robert Ray McKeown by HSCA investigator veton Fonzi, August 27, 1976. McKeown told Fonzi that on a Saturday morning at his home in Bay Cliff, Tex., in September or August 1963, two men visited his house. One man identified himself as Lee Oswald; the other man was called Hernandez. McKeown said that a friend of his, Sam Neill, was also present. After introducing themselves, McKeown said that Oswald wanted McKeown to furnish arms for a revolution in San Salvador. McKeown refused to cooperate, and the men de- parted, only to return in a few minutes. This time Oswald asked McKeown to provide four high-powered automatic rifles with telescopic lens, specifically .300 Savage automatics. Oswald said he was willing to pay up to $10,000. McKeown stated he realized this man was the Lee Harvey Oswald who allegedly shot President Kennedy upon witness- ing the murder of Oswald. McKeown also said that Sam Neill called him immediately after this event and told him that he also recognized Oswald as the man who had visited the house. (1735) 148) —JInterview of Robert Ray McKeown by the British Broad- sting Corp., December 1977 or January 1978. During this interview, McKeown stated that approximately 2 months before the assassination, two men visited his home. McKeown said that Sam Neill was present and that his wife was upstairs changing. One man identified himself as Lee Oswald and asked Mc- Keown to acquire some weapons to assist them in the over- throw of the El Salvador government. Oswald and the other man, named Hernandez, departed when McKeown refused to help. After a few minutes, the man (later identified as Oswald) returned and told McKeown he would pay him $1,000 each for four automatic rifles with telescopic lens. McKeown again refused. McKeown also stated that Sam Neill called him after Ruby shot Oswald and told him that Oswald was the man who had visited them. (1736) 596 (1149) —Immunized testimony of Robert Ray McKeown, April 12, 1978. McKeown stated that one morning sometime before the assassination, two strangers visited his house. One man identi- field himself as Lee Oswald and asked McKeown to supply some armaments for a revolution in El Salvador. After Mc- Keown refused Oswald and the second man, called Hernan- dez,(1737) left. McKeown also said that his wife was upstairs and that a friend of his, Sam Neill, was present. (1738) After a few minutes the two men returned and Oswald told McKeown he would pay him $10,000 for four .800 Savage automatics with telescopic lens. After McKeown again refused, they departed. (1739) McKeown also stated Sam Neill called him after the shoot- ing of Oswald and told him that the man who shot Oswald was the same man who visited the house. (7740) In his testimony, McKeown stated he believed that just after the assassination he told his probation officer, a man named Fields, of the contact with Oswald.(1741) McKeown also stated that during his 1964 interview, the FBI did not ask him anything about Oswald, and he did not volunteer any infor- mation.(/742) The FBI report does not agree.(/743) Mc- Keown had absolutely no explanation for why he withheld the information from the FBI, or why he told the FBI about Ruby and not Oswald. McKeown also stated that he could not recall telling Dan Rather on the CBS News Inquiry that Oswald only offered him $1,000 per rifle; he stated he told Dan Rather $10,000.(7744) McKeown did reiterate, however, that he was positive that Oswald and Ruby had visited him. (1745) (1150) Warren Commission response. When interviewed by the FB]jl in 1964 concerning the Ruby contacts, McKeown said that to his} knowledge he “had” never seen or met Lee Harvey Oswald. (1746) Fur-4 ther, McKeown did not publicly acknowledge this contact until 1975 Consequently, neither the Warren Commission nor the FBI had the opportunity to investigate it. | (1151) Inconsistencies. Like his statement concerning the Ruby visit numerous inconsistencies exist in McKeown’s recollections of the al leged Oswald contact: (1) Price of the rifles; (2) mention of thef revolution in El Salvador; (3) when the visit occurred; (4) whetherff the FBI asked McKeown about any knowledge or contact with Oswald and (5) why McKeown would have told the FBI about the Ruby con | tact and not about the Oswald contact. : (1152) Executive session testimony before the House Select Commit | tee on Assassinations. 597 EXECUTIVE SESSION WEDNESDAY, APRIL 12, 1978 | U.S. House of Representative Subcommittee on the Assassin tion of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, Washington, D.C, The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice,.at 8:15 a.m. in room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Richard- son Preyer (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Preyer, Dodd, Fithian and Sawyer. Also present: E. Berning, R. Morrison, G. Gonzi, J. : Wolf, M. Flanagan, A. Purdy, J. Hornbeck, I.C. Mathews, G. Cornell, W. Cross, H. Leap, M. Wills, D. Hardway, R. Genzman | and C. Berk. | | Mr. Preyer. The Committee will come to order, | ee | The Chair recognizes the Clerk of the Committee to | read into the record those members who are officially eed —eee 2 designated to be on the Committee this morning. es ee a The Clerk. Mr. Chairman, you, Mr. Thone, Mr. Sawyer and Mr. Dodd are regular members; Mr. Fithian will be substituting for Mrs. Burke, —— ee eee oS 598 Mr, Preyer. Pursuant to yesterday's order, this will be a closed meeting. If the witness, Mr. McKeown and his attorney would come forward at this time, I would ask the attorney for Mr. McKeown if he would state his name for the record, please. Mr. Appel. Mr. Chairman, my name is Kevin Appel, a Berta of the Virginia Bar. I have been asked to represent Mr. McKeown by Mark Lane, who is Mr. McKeown's attorney. Mr. Preyer. Very well. Is the witness prepared to be sworn to testify at this time. Mr. Appel. I would like to make a statement, if I may. Mr, Preyer. You are recognized at this time. Mr. Appel. Thank you. Mr, Lane, who is Mr, McKeown's attorney is unable to ' appear at this time. This fact has been made known to Chief J Counsel's office by Mr. Lane's staff several times over the course of this past week. Mr. Lane has repeated a request that Mr. McKeown's appearance before the Committee be rescheduled, The Committee has, however, refused to reschedule the appearance of this witness. In doing so, it) deprives him of his right to counsel of his choice. Mr. McKeown is willing to testify but does not want to do so without the counsel i of choice. 599 Mr. Lane is familiar with the witness. He is familiar | with the facts that he will be asked to relate in his | testimony and Mr. McKeown feels that his rights will not be adequately protected without Mr. Lane's presence. I have been called in at the last minute. I am not familiar with the witness or with the matters that he will be talking about. It is our feeling that his right against self—incrimina tion will not be protected, ZI will ask the Committee if, at all possible, to keg | reschedule the appearance of this witness. Mr. Lane has | assured me that he could appear at almost any time. He could not make it today; he had another commitment that he could not get out of. He is willing to come from Los angele at any time that the Committee wants and Mr. McKeown will testify, with Mr. Lane's presence, at any time. | Mr. Preyer. I will recognize counsel for the staff for| any comments he may have on that. | Mr. Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. | Mr. Chairman, the witness was subpoenaed on February : 14, 1978 to appear on March 14th of this year. At that : : time, he was fully interviewed by our staff and, I might | add, cooperated fully with the questioning. | Subsequently, the hearing was continued until today. Mr, Lane has attempted to change the hearing date to 600 April 17th. This request was first made on March 27th. Since March 27th, there have been frequent communicatio between Mr. Lane and this staff wherein it was indicated tha attempts would be made to change the appearance date, but that Mr. Lane should be prepared to appear with his client or make appropriate arrangements to the contrary. At no time wasiMr. Lane told that this hearing would be changed and he has, at all times, been told that the hearing was scheduled for the 12th. In addition, Mr. Chairman, the Committee is prepared, | the staff is prepared to recommend that the witness be | immunized and the appropriate orders are at hand. Therefore, it is our contention that the witness cannot incriminate himself in any way and his attorney, Mr. Appel, will be | present to deal with any objections that we feel he is perfectly competent to take care of. | Therefore, we feel that there can be no objection to his client's testifying at this time and it is the recommen- dation of counsel that a continuance not be grarteda. Mr. Preyer. I think*the objection is well taken. This is not exactly like a court proceeding. For one thing, this committee has a deadline by which time we have to finish this proceeding. It is not like a court which just goes on year after year. Mr. Appel. If I may make another comment, please, also 601 recently Mr. McKeown hes received ! a threatening nhone call which has made him very apprehensive, I am not familiar enough with the facts to counsel him about what he says, He is nervous about what he says. Mr. Lane has more familiarity with the witness and with what he will say and the witness would be much more at ease with Mr. Lane present, As I say, Mr. Lane is willing to reschedule for any | time that he can appear. Today was just a very bad day. | He has very pressing business that could not be changed, so | I again ask if at all possible that we change the scheduled | hearing. | Mr. Preyer. I will say to Mr. McKeown that he has nothing to fear from this Committee, This is an Executive | Session. His testimony will not be known to anyone, It ! is not as if he is being charged with any kind of a criminal | | charge, or anything of that sort. He is not, We are simpli | seeking information from : | him and we are Prepared to immunize | him so So Pratl there I do not could see be no possible criminal fall-out. | that there is | any danger to Mr. McKeown, tohis rights at this time, because this has been known for weeks and the hearing was set at this time. Our schedule | is | so tight, I think we would have to | go forward, , i] Mr. Fithian? Mr. Fithian. Mr. Chairman, I request that counsel -- | 602 I request to ask counsel. I understand that, in the spdginay appearance request to appear before the Committee that phere) wag an earlier date and, for convenience of counsel, it was shifted until today. Mr. Purdy. Mr. Fithian, the counsel for Mr. McKeown, Mr, Lane, contacted Chairman Stokes by letter on March 10th to request an open hearing and expense money. This was for | a hearing: schéduled for March 14th. The Committee considered these requests on March 13th, the day before the hearing was scheduled and it was for that reason, because of the scheduling of the March 13th | hearing, to consider those requests, that the hearing was postponed until April 12th. Mr, Fithian. Sc it has been postponed once for a one- | month period? Mr. Purdy. Yesw | Mr, Fithian. Mr. Chairman, it would seem to me that, | while attorney schedules are busy I am sure, that having | already postponed this hearing for one month that the | Committee would be ill-advised to make an additional post- : : ponement. Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr. Fithian. | The Chair will deny the motion for a continuance at thi s! time and will ask the witness if he would stand and be : sworn at this time, 603 Do you solemnly swear that the evidence that you are about to give the Subcommittee will he the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Preyer. Thank you, Mr, McKeown. I believe the witness has been given a copy of the Rule of this Committee. At this time, I will give a brief state- ment concerning the subject of the investigation. House Resolution 222 mandates the Committee to conduct a full and complete investigation ————————eeeeEEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeE—eee—e—e—eEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEeEE—EEeEeEeEeeest Ee and study of the circun- | stances surrounding the assassination and death of John | F. Kennedy, including the existing laws of the United States concerning the protection of the President,and investigatory | jurisdiction and capability of agencies and Cepartments are eee ee eee adequate imtheir —eeeeeeeeeeaeeeaOaaea=aeaauouweewwaw~aeeeeeee— = provisions of enforcement, whether there was full disclosure of evidence and information among agencies and departments of the United States government, and whether any evidence or information not in the possession of the agency or department would have been of assistance | (| in investigating the assassination and why such information : eee was not provided or collected hy that agency or department; | =-=; and to make recommendations to the House if the Select | a —SS Committee deems it appropriate, of amendment of existing : legislation or the enactment of new legislation. The Chair regognizes Mr. Purdy to begin the questioning oo SS — | 604 of the witness. Mr, Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman, the first line of inquiry will be related to Mr. McKeown's connections and contacts with Jack Ruby. 44-105 956 605 TESTIMONY OF ROBERT RAY MC KEOWN Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, please state your full name? Mr. McKeown. Robert Ray McKeown, Mr. Purdy. Please state your date of birth and place oa birth, Mr. McKeown. January 28, 1911, Houston, Texas, Mr. Purdy. What is your present address? Mr. McKeown. 1203 Southwest 30th Court, Miami, Florida. Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, when did you first meet Jack Ruby? Mr. McKeown. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it May incriminate me, Mr. Purdy. Mr. Chairman, I request now at this time that the Chair direct the order of immunity to the witness. Mr. Preyer. The Chair will ask counsel to give the Witness a copy of the order of immunity, which I understand you have obtained. Mr. Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, The Clerk. This will be marked Exhibit 92. (The document referred to was marked JFK Exhibit No, 92 and will be found in the files of the Subcommittee.) (Pause) 606 006736 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA iG In the Matter of the Application of UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Misc. No. 78-60 4.5 SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS FILED ee ee ee eet ee BA 2K8 4978 CONFERRING eta. UPON AND JAMES E, DAVEY, CLER; COMPELLING TESTIMONY FROM ROBERT RAY McKEOWN The United States House of Representatives Select Committee on Assassinations having made written application, pursuant to Title 18, United States Code, Sections 6002 and 6005, fo. om order conferring immunity upon Robert. Ray McKeown and compelling him to testify and provide other information before the Subcommittee on the assassination of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations, and the court finding that all procedures specified by 8 6005 have been” duly: followed, it is hereby, this 2 g th aa]of orp ie a 1978, i | ORDERED, that Robert Ray McKeown in accordance with the provisions of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 6002 and 6005, shall not be excused from testifying or pro- viding other information before the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy of the Select Committee on Assassinations on the grounds that the testimony or other information sought may tend to incriminate him. 607 ORDERED FURTHER, that Robert Ray McKeown appear 1en subpoenaed by said Subcommittee and testify and provide ach other information that is sought with respect to matters 1der inquiry by said Subcommittee. AND IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that no testimony or other aformation compelled under this order (or any information irectly or indirectly derived from such testimony or other iformation) may be used against Robert Ray McKeown 1 any criminal case, except a prosecution for perjury, iving a false statement or otherwise failing to comply ith this ORDER. United States District Judge ated: preach 1g 1426 608 Mr. Appel. I assume -- I am not familiar with grants of immunity. I assume that the statutory provisions have been followed in this order and that there was proper notice and the Attorney General notified? Mr.Preyer. Counsel? Mr. Purdy. All proper steps, including notification of the Justice Department, were complied with. Mx. Preyer. _Thank.vou. The Chair now directs the witness to answer the questio in light of the immunity that has been conferred on him. Mr. McKeown. Would you repeat the question? Mr, Purdy. Yes, Mr. McKeown. When did you fizst meet Jack Ruby? a Mr. McKeown. Well, can I tell it in my own words, how ea eee eee ae I came about to meet him? | | Mr. Purdy. Please do, Mr. McKeown. If we have any | questions, we can follow up. | Mr. McKeown. Well, at the time, I was running a lounge | in Texas and the Sheriff's Department came to my place and :| told me that there was somebody trying to get ahold of me || from Dallas, Texas and would it be all right if the Sheriff's | Department would | give himmy number there. So I said, hell, : I do not know anybody from Dallas, Texas, so I said yes, it is | all right,go ahead and give him the number. —— : | So I would venture to say that, maybe twenty, thirty 609 | minutes -- I do not know exactly how long, but the phone rang and I answered it and | it was a gentleman on the phone who said my name is Jack Rubinstein -- he did not Say Ruby. He says, I would sure like to come down there and have a talk with you. I said, what is this all about? He said, well, I understand that you have connections that would benefit me, and I would like to come down. And I said, well, I guess it is all right. Come on down. So I would venture to say -- this has been quite see oI ago, I guess you can understand that. I would venture to all maybe two days that this gentleman walked in and he was a pretty well-dressed guy, had a hat on and everything, and | he introduced himself to me and told me his name was Rubin- | stein. He says, I am the one who talked to you on the | phone, | He said, is there any way that we can talk? I said yes, If you want to talk, what do you want to talk about? So he told me, he says, I would like -- I may be getting ahead of my story; it has been a long time. Of course, we | talked a little bit about this and that and he said, I | understand that you are a very good friend of Castro. | I said, I do not know, that has been sometime back, I am out of that mess now, and I do not want to get too much 610 involved in it any more, | He says, I wonder if you would give me a letter of | introduction I says, to I do Castro? not know. I do not vee you. I asked : him, are you Jewish, and he said yes, I said, well, I know you are not Spanish. So anyway, it would certainly be worth your while if you would give me this letter, a nice letter telling them that I ama friend of yours and I ama good friend and have been knowing | you a long time. | I said, well, that would be a damned lie. I just met | you thirty minutes ago. I do not know you. So he says, I will give you $25,000 if you will write | me this letter where you will acknowledge that I ama friend of yours and have done business with you and things of that | | sort. Do you understand? So I said, well, Jesus Christ. $25,000is a lot of | | money, I said, where are you going to get that kind of money. He said, I have connections; I can get it. Asa matter of fact, I thought he was full of baloney. | | Anyway, I did write the letter and I says, I will tell | you what. I will give you this letter, but you give me $10,000 to show you that this letter will get you to see | Castro and then meanwhile, I will call Castro and tell him you are coming. But you give me $10,000 now and I will give | 611 you the letter, He says, well, I do not have that right on me right now. I do not have that much money, but I will be back either this afternoon or in the morning, and he wanted to read the letter; I would not let him read it, Sure enough, he did come back the next day -=- not the next day, but two or three different timeshe came back, but he never did get the letter. I never did give him the letter, because he never did give me any money. But in the meantime, we would talk about things and he commenced telling me that he had a whole lot of jeeps, a whole lot of slot machines and he had access to this and all of this. He had good connect ions. I said that is beside the point. I do not think that Castro is going tao have gambling over there to begin with, But he kept coming baths you know, and we would talk and drinka beer. together, He impressed me -— I da not know exactly how to say it because ladies are present, because he impressed me as a big bunchof b,s. in my opinion. That is just my opinion. He wanted to act like he was a big shot, but it did not impress me any. But the only thing I can figure is that he was trying to find out from me my activities and things of that sort, how well I‘knew Castro. He wanted to find out where I lived, how I got involved and all of this and all of 612 that. But I did not tell him. ; | about the fourth day he came down. He came | ; He left four times and he left and I never heard from him | down about since. Mr. Purdy. I realize that it has been a long time but I would like to ask you a few follow-up questions about the call and the series of visits. Could you pinpoint for us what year the phonecall was? it was around ‘61, Mr. McKeown, Well, I imagine that | but I am not positive. I know it was not very colay™ = | imagine around August, or something like that. I xréally do | not know, to be frank with you. I had it all this wrote | down but my house burned up and burned everything I had up, | everything. | As a matter of fact, I was lucky to get out of the | house and I had an investigator investigate how come my : house was burned up; and they told me that somebody set it ) on fire. “I lost everything. I got out of there with a pair | of shorts. 3 | Mr. Purdy. Do you have any time reference for when the | call came? Was it a long time after Castro took over, or : a short time? Do you remember that? | More or less a short time, because it | Mr. McKeown. was allin the papers. I should have brought that with me, I brought it down here, but I have all of the papers, the . 613 newspaper clippings and everything, but I left it in the | room. You know, you can tell from the date about what time | that all happened. Mr. Purdy. Could we obtain copies of the papers from you after the hearing? Mr. McKeown. Sir? Mr. Purdy. Could we obtain copies of those papers afte the hearing? Mr. McKeown. Yes, they are at the hotel, You know, the papers probably have the date on them. But it was after that, you see. That is the reason,, I imagine, that he contacted me because he read all of this paper business, you know. oy Ba Purdy, Do you remember what it was in the news- Papers that he read about you? Mr. McKeown, Well, I was working, I was associated with Carlos Prio. I was getting guns into Castro. Mr. Purdy. So there was publicity about that? Mr.McKeown. So I got caught, you understand, and then the publicity came out, Mr. Purdy, When you were arrested for running guns, that was in 1958, is that correct? Mr. McKeown, I think so, '58 or ‘59, I was not arrested, I gave myself up, Mr. Purdy, You gave yourself up, the records indicate, | 614 on February 25th, 1958, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Somewhere around there, yes, sir. Mr, Purdy. Do you recall talking with the FBI about these facts on January 28th, 1964? Mr. McKeown. What? Mr. Purdy. De you recall’ béing interviewed by the FBI in January, 1964? Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Purdy. At that time you indicated that the telephone call from a man you said who was Jack Rubinstein came approximately one week after Castro assumed power. Is that your present recollection? Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Purdy. Do you recall that Castro came to pavark January 1, 1959? Mr. McKeown, Yes, Mr. Purdy, That would put your phonecall approximately a week after that, early in January, 1959, Is that your present recollection? Mr. McKeown, It was right after Castro took power, maybe a week or ten days or something. I really do not know. Mr. Purdy, This morning you said that the man who called you said that you might be able to do something for his benefit, Did he add any other details as to what you 615 might be able to do? Mr. McKeown. He said he would like to sell Castro a lot of jeeps and slot machines. That is what he said, and he wanted to meet Castro, he wanted to go over there and meet him. Mr. Purdy. Limiting this just to the phone call, not to the visit, did he discuss the jeeps and slot machines during the phone call? Mx. McKeown. No. Mr « Purdy, What did he discuss during the phone call? Mr. McKeown, Like I told you, he just said that he would liketo come down and talk to me and I told him that was all right with me if he wanted to come down. Mr. Purdy. In the telephone call, did he request your assistancein obtaining the release of three people from Cuba? | Mr. McKeown. He said he had some friends over there that he would like to help get out, if I could help him get them out, Mr. Purdy. Did he say who they were? Mr. McKeown, Did you have any idea who he was talking about? | Mr. McKeown. No, Mr. Purdy, You say you had known Castro very wel}],.is il | taht correct? : 616 Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Purdy. Approximately a week after Castro assumed power, were many people imprisoned? Mr. McKeown. Imprisoned in Cuba or here? Mr. Purdy. Imprisoned in Cuba. Did h2 imprison a number of people when he took power? Mr. McKeown. You know as much about it as I do, You read the papers where he did, yes. Mr. Purdy, Do you have a present recollection as to whether he imprisoned people shortly after taking power or later, months later? Mr. McKeown. Well, I presume he imprisoned them practically right He ares Mr, Purdy. Do you know what types of people he imprisoned after taking power? Were they political figures, were they gamblers, were they Cubans} Americans? Mr. Appel. Is this line of questioning pertinent? Mr. McKeown. Why go through all of this? I am here to testify about Oswald and Jack Ruby and all of that Castro business-- I have all of that behind me and I want to leave it hehind me, Mr .. Appél, I have to object, Mr. Purdy, This line of questioning is intended to gain ra a any information possible about the types of people that | Jack Ruby may have been trying to obtain the release of 617 from Cuban | jails on behalf of some other interests, as well | as to pinpoint more accurately the timeframe when Jack Ruby would have been making those inquiries, because it is unclear whether or not people were imprisoned shortly after the Castro takeover, or later on. For that reason, Counsel contends that this line of questioning is relevant, Mr, Chairman. Mr. Preyer. I think | it is pertinent to seek to devel- op information relating to who might have been imprisoned. || If the witness knows the answer to this question, the Chair | ee ee thinks it would be pertinent to answer. | Mr. Appel. Would you repeat the question? Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, let me rephrase the question. Do you have any information about the general types of people imprisoned or specific individuals imprisoned after Castro took power?» nw) SF —— Mr. McKeown. Do I know any of them? Mr. Purdy, Yes. Mr. McKeown. No. I did not know any of them personally. I heard of them. eee ——- —___. _- -——-——— _____... Mr. Purdy. Do you recall the names of anybody you heard was in prison in Cuba? Mr. McKeown, There was a friend who came from Costa Rica and I understood that he was in jail, His name was Hernandez, See SESS ——S— 618 Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, did Mr. Rubinstein, in the phonecall, offer you any money for obtaining the release of individuals? Mr. McKeown. No, not in the phone call. Mr, Purdy, How many individuals did he ask that you obtain the release of? Mr..McKeown. Three. He said he had three friends over}- wy there. Mr. Purdy. Did Mr. Rubinstein indicate that he was working for anybody else when he was trying to obtain the felch of these peopte? Mr. McKeown. He emphsized, when I asked him about this) money, you know, I told him that is a hell of a lot of money, but he said, I have good connections so money does not mean anything, Mr. Purdy, This was moneyin regard to obtaining the release of people or the letter? Mr. McKeown, To give him the letter, If I would give him the letter of introduction to Castro, he offered me that money, But I never did get it. He never did get the eee eee eee letters). Mr, Purdy. Did you tell the FBI on January 28, 1964 that Mr. Rubinstein, in the phonecall, offered you $5,000 for the release of each af three prisoners? Mr. McKeown. Well, he said something on the phone, he 619 said, I got some friends over in Cuba, but as I recall now, | he might have offered me some money on the phone, hut I do not believe he did. It seems as though the only time he | offered me money was to get the letter, He might have said Something, but I did not talk to him i very long on the phone, The only thing he wanted me to do, to get from me, was it all right for him to come down there | from Dallas to talk to me, That was the main thing that he wanted to talk to me about. Mr. Purdy. Approximately how much time passed after the phoénecall when he came to visit you? Mr, McKeown. A couple or three days. Mr, Purdy, He came to visit you a few days after the Phone call? es is ee a a gs amn asg =——= Mr. McKeown, Yes, Mr. Purdy. You stated earlier this morning that the =. =——- man who came to see you identified himself as Jack Rubin- Se stein, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Rubinstein, Mr, Purdy, In your interview with the FBI on January 28, 1964, did you tell him that the man who came to visit you did not dent ify sHimsel £? Mr. McKeown, No, not,as I recall, Did not identify himself? mr, ruruy, Yes, 620 Mr. McKeown. I do not recall what‘I said to the FBI. I just told them that he came to see me. Mr, Purdy. Is it your present recollection that the ma who came to see you, identified himself as Jack Rubinstein? Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr, Purdy. Could you please give you a physical des- cription of the man who came to visit you? Mr. McKeown, Well, he was a little bit stout and he had a little patch on his nose at the time, a little round patch, I asked him what happened, he said he squeezed a blackhead and it got infected, He had a black hat on and he was well-dressed, Kind of a stocky sort of fellow, not tall. I would venture to say he weighed” 165, 180 pounds, I really do not know. Just average, Well-dressed, He wore a hat, I knowthat. Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, did you tell the FBI on January28, . 1964 that the reason that you knew the man wha came to see you was Jack Rubinstein was because you recognized him from photographs that you saw at the time of the assassination? Mr. McKeown, I want to tell you something. Zathinis er went to talk to the ?FBI bef the ore assassination and then after the assassination, both. I just told the FBI that Jack Rubinstein, like I am telling you, called me on the phone and he came down there 621 to see me and he wanted this letter, | Mr. Purdy. Did you talk to the FBI about Jack Rubin- stein before the assassination? Mr. McKeown. It seems as though I did, yes. Mr, Purdy. Approximately how long before the assassina tion did you talk with the FBI? | Mr...McKeown. Right after Castro took over, you see? I think Castro took over in ‘58, did he not? Mr. Purdy. He took over January 21, 1959, | Mr. McKeown. '59, It was a little bit after that that he came to see me. Mr. Purdy, Did you talk to the FBI about Jack Rubin- stein before the assassination? Mr. McKeown. Well, it seems as though I did. You | see, I was on probation. I was on five-year probation and : :| I was scared, because I did not want to get in no trouble, | So I believe I went and told them about this guy coming to see me, up in the Post Office Building in Houston. I am | | pretty sureI did, They told me that that was very good | information, : | But, you see, right after the President was assassinated! : -~ as a matter of fact, I was working for the Houston Slush :: | Pump Company, I was a salesman, a sales representative. Well, this lady, she owned this company and her and I | ' was going to eat dinner, to eat lunch, and the ‘bookkeeper -- | 622 | is it all right to tell you in my own words how this happened? We wanted to get some chicken and we were going toiget some Mexican food at a Mexican restaurant, so he asked us to bring some chicken back for him. So I went into this cafe to order the chicken and then tell them I would pick it up on the way back and that is when I heard that the President had been shot. So I come ee on back to the car and I said, turn the radio on. The President has been shot. So she turned the radio on and we didn't go nowhere, We went back to the office and listened ta the broadcasts on the radio. The next day, the FBI was out and I went up there and talked to them about Jack Ruby, NO SS Mr. Purdy, Is that the first time that you talked to the FBI about Jack Rubinstein? Mr. McKeown. I thinkit was; then again, maybe it was not. It has been a long time. I have been througha lot of hell since then, Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, where were you when Lee Harvey Qswald was shot? Mr. McKeown. I was watching my television in St, Leon, Texas, Mr. Purdy, Did you recogniz the name e of the individual aaa who aeoe ee maresee shot Lee Harvey Oswald? 623 Mr. McKeown, Yes, Mr. Purdy, Did you recognize his name as Jack Ruby? Did you assume that was Jack Rubinstein? Mr. McKeown. I recognized him as the man who had come to see me. | Mr. Purdy, You recognized his photograph? Mr. McKeown, On the television. | Mr. Purdy, After Mr. Oswald was shot, did you tell anyone that you had known Jack Rubinstein? Mr. McKeown, I did not have to tell them. you know, | 0 aaa things like that get around, This particular fellow who was living there with me -- I had married this lady, she was a schoolteacher and she did not know that I was in allot this mess, I was on probation at the time. So I was trying to hold it away from her, but of course you know ————_———— _———————— them things get out. But, anyway, Sam Neal was there and he left so I told Pauline, I said, I am going to turn the televisicn on. I seen it when he killed him, And then Sam called right after that and we went down to somewhere, I do not knew where, He called me up and say, hey, that is the son-of-a-bitch who was at your house, that is the guy who was at your house talking about Oswald, And I said, it sure is, Cre ae See ee cone ene: ees ee soe ae a ee Ss a 66 Mr. Purdy. Did you tell anyone, after the shooting of Oswald, that you knew Jack Rubinstein? SSS as eee a 624 Mr, McKeown. I did not know Jack Rubinstein. I did | not know him, like I don't know you, I am talking to you now, but I don't know you. The same with Jack Rubinstein, I did not know him... The only thing he came to me -— I had never seen the man in my life before; I had never heard of hin. Mr. Purdy, Did you tell anybody that you had met him prior to the time that you talked to the FBI? Mr. McKeown, That I met Jack Ruby? Yes, I told a few people that he came to see me, after this | happened, ‘Mr, Purdy, Did you tell anybody besides Sam Neal that | you had met Lee Harvey Oswald after the assassination? Mr, McKeown. Sam Neal was there when Lee Harvey Oswald came out of the house. | Mr. Purdy, Did you tell anybody else that you had : met Lee Haryey Oswald after the assassination? | Mr. McKeown, I guess SO. I told a few people, : Mr. Purdy, You stated earlier that Mr. Rubinstein who | visited you said he was interested in transporting jeeps | and slot machines to Cuha? | Mr, McKeown, Right, That was his subject. More or less, he wanted this letter more than anything else, | Mr. Purdy, Did he say that he had possession of jeeps i and slot machines? ° * ! Mr. McKeown, Right. | He said he had them out in Nevada | 625 in the mountains somewhere, out in a cave, That is what he told me, | Mr. Purdy. Did Mr. Rubinstein say that he knew any Mafia or organized crime figures that were associated with Cuba? — Mr. McKeown. He said he knew the Mafia. He did not Say anything about associating with Cuba. he; Purdy, Did he tell you any of those individuals? Mr. McKeown. No, he did not tell me any names, no, Mr. Purdy, Did he say that he was working for those Mafia figures in those transactions? Mr. McKeown. No, he said he had connections. When I asked him about the money he said you do not need to worry about the money, Ir have good connections, Money. does not mean nothing, Mr. Purdy. Did he mention any connections with Miami? Mr, McKeown, He wanted to know if I knew anybody in Miami, He just wanted to know how well I was acquainted in Miami, I said I go there quite often. I know a few Cubans, Mr. Purdy, Did he mention the Clover Club or the Ponce Room in Miami? Mr. McKeown, Yes. Mr. Purdy, Why did he mention those to you? Mr. McKeown, He asked me, are you familiar with the 626 Ponce Club, That was behind the Clover, In them days, mi is where the Latins congregated, in the Ponce Club,.do you understand? And he asked me if I had ever been in there, I said, yes, T had been in there. That is about all there was to it. He just wanted to. know if I knew where it was. Mr. Purdy. Did he say that he had been there? Mr. McKeown. Well, he aia not exactly say that he had been there. He just wanted to know if I had been there, Mr. Purdy, Did you get the impression that he had been there? Mr. McKeown, I got the impression that he knew what he was talking about, He described the place pretty good, Mx. Purdy. Did you tell him that you knew people connected with the Ponce Room? Mr. McKeown, No. Mr. Purdy, Did he tell you that he knew individuals connected with the Ponce Club? Mr. MeKeown,:. No, Mr. Purdy, When Mr, Rubinstein contacted you concern- ing the release of individuals from Cuban prisons, did he | initially think that your name was Davis? Mr McKeown, Yes, Mr. Purdy, ‘What did he think. that your first name was? Mr. McKeown. I do not Know, but he got me mixed up. 627 — with a fellow named Davis over in Beaumont. Hell, I did not know anybody named Davis. Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, you stated earlier that Mr. Rubinstein contacted you because of news accounts of your connections with Cuba, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. That is the only way I know. He called the Sheriff's Department. I was living about 35 miles or so. I was in the county, I was not in the city of Houston, I was in a little place called Seabrook. I had bought a house down there and then I had bought this acre of land and I had built a little shopping center there. The money was furnished to build this shopping center, and I think I was waiting for the trial. Mr. Purdy, Did Mr. Rubinstein indicate that he had talked to anyone who knew you prior to his call to you? Mr. McKeown. The only way I can answer that is to tell you that he told me, he said, you are well-known, | You are well-known all over the stateof Texas, I have seen you ; picturein the paper in Mexico City, || Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, can you explain how it was | that Jack Rubinstein read about you by your name of McKeown and yet came to you and thought you were named Davis? Mr McKeown, I cannot understand that, no, iH Mr. Purdy, Did you ask Rim why he thought that you were named Davis? 628 Mr. McKeown, TI have used a few names, but I never did use Davis. Mr. Purdy. What were some of the other names you used? Mr. McKeown. I used McAllister, I used Henry, things like that, Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, did Mr, Rubinstein say that he had seen your name and picture in Mexico City? Mx .McKeown, Right. I said, well ; that is news to me. I did not know that it was down there. Mr. Purdy Did he indicate to you what the storey was in reference to? Mr. McKeown, When they confiscated all these arms that I was caught with. Mr. Purdy, What did Mr, Rubinstein say to you that indicated that he had mistaken you with a Davis from Beau- $ mont, Texas? Mr.McKeown, He told me that he thought that I was the one who was in Beaumont, Texas hut now that he knew that I was not the same man, Mr, Purdy, Did you know, or had you ever heard, of a Davis from Reaumont, Texas? e S a ME. McKeown, Na. I went to Beaumont, Texas a couple of times_hut I went over there to buy Blankets, I Bought a thousand Blankets, 629 _ Mr. Purdy. Who did you buy a thousand blankets from? Mr. McKeown. From a Ward Surplus, just a store there, Mr. Purdy. Did you know, or. had you heard of, any person named Davis connected with arms sales? Mr .MMcKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be appropri- ate at this time for members of the Committee to ask any questions you might have related to Mx. McKeown's connection ee ee with Jack Ruby. Following that, I would pursue a line of questioning concerning his knowledge of some of Jack Ruby's other associates, Mr. Preyer, Would you prefer that we proceed with the questioning? Mr. ¥ithian. Whatever the Chair prefers, I may have a Fa eo coneness one question to clarify. Ur. Preyer, Ail right. Mr. Fithian. Mr. McKeown, were the only contacts that you had with Jack Rubinstein that sequence of visits that he made to Texas? Was that the only time you personally contacted or were contacted by Jack Rubinstein when he came down to see you in Texas? Mr. McKeown. That is the only time that I have ever seen him, when he came tomy club, He came there four or five times, Mr, Fithtan. After that sequence? eS eS Seer: SSS an SS 630 Mr. McKeown. I never saw him before, w Mr. Fithian, He did not call you on the phone, you had no other contact? Mr. McKeown. de He just dropped completely out of sight. Mr, Fithian, No letters from him, no phone calls? . Mr. McKeown. No, Mr, Fithian, Thank you. aae aaa nnacaenety emma Mr. Preyer. I would suggest to counsel that we might Proceed at this time. Mr. Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 4 res eet ee ee one re e ns ere oe Sme Mr. McKeown, you said that there were a number of wie that Mr. Rubinstein came to you, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Yes, || Mr. Purdy, Approximately how many: visits? | > ————— Mr. McKeown. I would venture maybe four, at least i four. | Mr. Purdy. What period of time elapsed between the | first and the final visit? | Mr. McKeown.. He came every day, you dete what I mean? The first time he came from the phone call, and then he | came, I do not know whether it was the next eee day. I know it was dark, around 8:00 or 9:00 when he called me on the Phone, and I do not know whether it was the next day or the following day that he came.’ I did not Know him when he walked in. SS SSS SS se Se I did not know 631 him from Adam. Then he introduced himself to me, Mr. Purdy. Mr, McKeown, how far is Seabrook, Texas from Dallasy Texas? Do you know? Mr. McKeown, I would say about 300 miles, Mr. Purdy. About 300 miles, Mr. McKeown. Approximately, about 300, Mr. Purdy. Was Mr. Rubinstein staying in Seabrook over this period of four days? Mr. McKeown. No, he told me he was staying in town, in Houston, Mx. Purdy, Did he say where he was staying? Mr, McKeown. No , Mr. Purdy, Did Mr. Rubinstein mention any people whom you both knew? Mr. McKeown. Not that I recall, This is my own opinion about Jack Rubinstein. The only thing that I can figure -- what is your name? Mr, Purdy. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, The only thing that I can figure, Mr, Purdy, is that he was trying to go and tell somebody else | that he knew me real good. Do you understand? He kept | asking me about my boyhood, my connections with Prio and haw many times I had been to Cuba, all of this and all of that, and did F go under a epee ree anything like that. And you know, 1ike I say, the only thing that I can 632 figure about the whole damn thing is that he was trying to find out and go and tell people that he knew me real good, do you understand? He did not. I did not know him, Mr. Purdy, Did he indicate to you that he had been | . to Cuba? Mr. McKeown, No, he indicated that he wanted to go ti to - er Cuba. He did not say anything about him being there, Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, during what period of time did you live or work in Cuba? Mr. McKeown, Well, I had a business in Cuba. It was in Santiago, then I woul go d into eagnr aie It was a legitima business, you know? . Batista kept after me to pay off because I was doing a pretty gaod business, I had invented a coffee cleaning machine. I was going to build over there. I had Built the prototype in Houston, then I took it On over and then we were going to open up a place in Cuba to manufacture. Then Batista kept on after me to pay off, pay off -- not him, do not misunderstand me, He did not! come himself, Batista didn't, but he sent his militia, 3'e So I told them to hell with it, I was going to pay him nothing, I am a United States citizen. I am not paying you ! rn a A I -ee --- =aIp nothing z | So » - it went on there for aboufour, t five or six months, eS ee SS SS —— oe eS 633 Then four militias came out there and they put me on an airplane and told me to get out of Cuba and E™9GSoCrout. Mr. Purdy. What was the time period that you left dm Cuba? Mr. McKeown. What time was it? Mr. Purdy. Yes, | Mr. McKeown. The dapeting é Mr. Purdy. What was the date and the year? Mr. McKeown, It was around '57, I do not know what date it was. Mr. Purdy, Did you return to live or work in Cuba after Castro took power? Mr. McKeown. No, Mr. Purdy, Was that because af your probation? Mr. McKeown, Yes. I “tried to. Mr. Purdy, Mr, McKeown? Mr. McKeown. He tried to getme to go, he came to Houston, Castro came to Houston and he told me, come on, get on the airplane, I said no way, But I did go up and had a hearing with Judge Ingraham and I had my probation officer who was of the name Fields and he recommended to the Judge that I not go to Cuba, Mr. Purdy. Mr McKeown, you stated today that Jack Rubinstein came to see you four times in 1959. Is that correct? 44-105 0 - 79 - 41 Mr. McKeown, I think so,. Right after Castro took over | ¥ o Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, did you tell the FBI on Janu i. 28, 1964 that Jack Rubinstein came to see you only one time? 1 Mr. McKeown. No, because I know that it came two or ia three times, Mr. Purdy. Does it refresh your recollection to know e ee ee that the report by Special Agent Daniel Foltz of January om 28, 1964 indicates that you told him that Jack Rubinstein came to visit you only one time? Mr. McKeown. I do not know why I would tell him that, because he came two, three times, Maybe I was scared ae Seti ae Seo I was on probation, Maybe I told him only once. I do not know, | I am telling you the truth because I swore I would tell! the truth, and he came to seeme three or four times. Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, is your memory better now than when you had the FBI in 19642 interview Mr. McKeown, What? Mr. Purdy,: Is your memory better now today than when you had the FBI interview in 1964? Mr. McKeown . I do not know, Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown, as eyerythingyou told the FBI in 1964 the truth? Mr. McKeown. To the best of my recollection, The only thing I was trying to do was trying to help the government 635 out. That was what I was trying to do, If he was involved in anything, I was just trying to help them out... I just wanted to tell them the truth, © He asked to come see me, the man who murdered Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. Purdy. Did you tell the FBI on January 28, 1964 that the man who came to see you never returned, nor did you ever again see him after the first visit? Mr. McKeown. No, not after the first visit, hecause he came three or four times, like I told you, Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, were you in Dallas or New Orleans during 1963? Mr. McKeown. Where? Mr. Purdy. Dallas, Texas or New Orleans, Louisiana during 1963, Mr. McKeown. No, Mr. Purdy, Mr. McKeown ,. did you know, or know af, Mr. R. D. Mathews? Mr. McKeown, Who? Mr. Purdy, Mr. Russell Douglas Mathews. Mr. McKeown. Never heard of him, Mr, Purdy, Did Jack Ruby discuss him? Mr, McKeown, No , Mr. Purdy, Did you know, or have yaqu heard of, Mr, Joseph Civello? 636 Mr. McKeown, Joseph wha? Ww Mr. Purdy. Civello, Mr, McKeown. Not as I recall, dea Mr. Purdy, Did you know James Robert Todd? Mr. McKeown. What did he do? ~ Mr Purdy. He lived and worked in Dallas, Texas. Mr, McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy, Did you know James Henry Dolan? Mr. McKeown, What did he do? Mr. Purdy, He worked for. the American Guild of Variety Artists in Dallas and he was a gambler. Mr, McKeown. No, I did not know him, I heard of him, but I did not know him. Mr. Purdy. Did Jack Ruby discuss him? Mr. McKeqwn. No, He did not discuss any names, He just said he had connections that could get ahold of money, Mr. Purdy, Did you know, or have you heard, of Mr. Jim Brady? Mr. McKeown. What did he do? Mr. Purdy. He also went by the name Eugerfe Hale Brady, Mx. McKeown. Was he a pilot? Mr, Purdy, No, Mr. McKeown. -No, I do not know him, Mr. Purdy, Do you know, or have you heard of, Messers, | Sam or Joseph Campesi? 637 Mr. McKeown. TI have heard of them, Mr. Purdy. You never met them? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy, Did you know Candy Barr? Mr. McKeown, I’ have heard of her, Mx, Purdy. You never met her? Mr. McKeown, No, Mr. Purdy. Do you recall how you heard of Candy Barr? Mr. McKeown, ‘Well, I had a friend and she was living down around El Campo, Texas, I do not recall the name of the town, just a small place, and he was a friend of hers and he told me that she was down there. That is all I know, Mr. Purdy, How did you hear of the Campesis, Mr... McKeown. What? | Mr. Purdy, How did you hear of Sam or Joseph Campesi? Mr. McKeown, Through Prio, uns Pindyeiowiaelana gouveayt- Boul ened Mr .McKeown, He said they were good people, they were On our side. Mr. Purdy, Did he say that he was working with him? Mx, McKeawn, Well, I presumed that he was working with him, I do not know. I was more or less a lone wolf, I did not implicate myself with all them people because I did what he told me to do and he furnished the money, Mr. Purdy, Are you talking about Mr. Prio? 638 Mr. McKeown. Prio,. yes, Mr. Purdy. - Do you know whether or not they were also working for or with Mr. PE ID 7; Mr .. McKeown. I presume, but I do'‘not know for sure. ta Mr. Purdy, Do you know any other Americans who were working for Mr. Prio? ™“! Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Purdy. Who were they? (Pause) Mr. McKeown. A very good friend of mine. We did a lot of travelling together, His name was Manola Artuse,. I am sorry to tell you this. There was another one named Mario, but I cannot recall his last name. He married a woman | from Puerto Rico and I understand that he is in Cuba now. Whether he is nor not, I have not seen him since him and I came here and met Prio. Mr. Purdy. Do you know of anybody else who knows him? Mr. McKeown, Who? | Mr. Purdy, Mario? Mx... McKeown, Manola. Mr. Purdy. Does the name Mario Valamios sound familiar Mr. McKeown, Yes. Mr. Purdy, Was that him? Mr, McKeown. It might have been. 639 ~ Mr. Purdy. Do you recall anybody else who was working nN with Mr. Prio at that time? ————————————— Mr. McKeown, Oh, hell, yes. I do not recall their names. A Spanish name is easy to forget, and I just knew them by their first name, more or less, Ralph, for instance, Mr. Purdy.:. Pardon me? Mr. McKéown, A gentleman by the name of Ralph, He was SON Re eS TS mor or e less Prio's bodyguard and a lady named Marie Serez, Manola was close to Prio, and Mario, and three or four others but hell, I do not remember their names. Mr. Purdy, Did you-know, or have you heard of, Joseph Marello? | a McKeown, Yes, Mr. Purdy. How did you know him? etre LpKe mt negra Mr. McKeown, Through Manors: SS Mr. Purdy. You knew him personally? “I Mr Le McKeown, Just to talk with, ane oad eine erties = Mr. Purdy. Did you work with him at all? Mr. McKeown, No, I worked by myself, Mr. Purdy. Are you aware of any particular assignments that he had from Mr. Prio? Mr. McKeown, Who? Mr. Purdy. Mr, Marella, Mr. McKeown, No, The only thing,he would come to me and tell me where things would be. 640 Mr, Purdy. What kind of things? | i) Mr. McKeown. Guns, Mr. Purdy. He would tell you where ta get guns? 4- Mr. McKeown. Yes. ina Mr. Purdy. Did he tell you who was supplying those > | guns? |a Mr, McKeown. No. Mr wyPurdy. | Did you know, or have you heard of, Mr, Thomas Ely Davis III of Beaumont, Texas? Mr. McKeown, I told you awhile ago I did not know . anybody by the name of Davis, Mr. Purdy. Did you know a Mr, Carl Davis of North Carolina? Mr. McKeown, What? Mr. Purdy, Did you know a Mx. Carl Dayis of North Carolina? Mr. McKeown. Carl Davidson? — Mr, Purdy, Davis, Mx, McKeown, No. Mr. Purdy. Mr « Chairman, I think it would be approprin § ate now if the Committee would like to ask any questions about, r Mr, McKeown'*s connections with Mr. Ruby. Following that, I ! i ' j will develop I a line of questioning concerning Mr. McKeown's i i ' contacts with Mr. Oswald, i Mr. Preyer. I was not clear on your interview with the|| i 641 FBI shortly after the assassination, Mr. McKeown. The next day, Mr. Preyer. How did they happen to interview you? Mr. McKeown, Sir? in Mr ,. Preyer, How did they happen to interview you? Mr. McKeown How did they happen? Mr, Preyer, Yes, Mr. McKeown. As I said, I was working with this pump company and they came to the office, They came out there, Mr. Preyer. What made them come to the office? Had you made some statement? — Mr. McKeown, I do not know, But they sure came out there and I lost that job, Every job I got I lost because they would come out where r was working, Mr. Preyer, You did not go to them as far as you know? There was nothing about you in the paper that would have Caused them to come and interview you? Mr. McKeown, Not that I know of,. There was nothing about me in the paper. Mr. Preyer, Because of your friendship with Mr, Castro, did a number of people come to you and ask for favors? Mr. McKeown. Oh, Jesus Christ, yes. One of your good | friends came to me, a gentleman by the name of Butler, He was. a campaign manager for Ike Eisenhower or something, , He was a big wheel with the Republicans and I am a Democrat and he told | 642 me ~~ I will tell you, This was the most mysterious thing you ever heard of, Mr. Preyer, I do not care to Know the details of all of these visits Because they would not be relevant to our inquiry, but you were visited by a number of people or called ‘ and Jack Ruby's call was a part of this? | Mr. McKeown. The people came down to see me, you see, | | after Castro took over, for wanting me to do those people | fayors, like sugar, | Mr. Preyer, These were mostly people who wanted | to get some business deal with Cuba? | | Mr. McKeown, Right. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Fithian, do you have any questions? a Fithian. I do not have any at this point, Mr, Chairman, Mr, Preyer, I think it might be appropriate at this point, before we leave the Ruby matter, to enter the FBI Report that -you referred to inte the record. Mr. Purdy, Mr, Chairman, I would like to ask the Clerk to mark the FBI report of January 28, 1964 with Mr, Robert Ray McKeown, conducted by Special Agent Daniel Foltz for identification, IP would like to ask the Clerk to mark it JFK Exhibit No, 93, (The document referred to was Marked JFK Exhibit No, 643 93 and will be found in | the files of the Subcommittee, ) Mr. Purdy, Mr. Chairman, I would | like to ask at this time that JFK Exhibit 93 will be entered into the record. de | > | Mr. Preyer, Without objection, it is entered into the tn | record at this time, (The dacument referred-to, -oe eS having been previously markad for identification as JPK | Exhibit No, 93 for identifica- tion was entered into the | record.) | Mr. Pundy.. If the Chair wishes, I will begin the | questioning of Mr. McKeown's contact with Mr. Oswald, | Mr. Preyer. Please proceed, ! | eea ee ru aa aa re Mr. Purdy. Mr, McKeown, when did you first meet Lee | | ! Harvey Oswald? vs Mr. McKeown. Well, I was sitting in my home in St, Leon, Texas, and IF would venture to say that it was around 9300 or : 10;00 in the morning and I seen this car drive up, it had a big picture window, I seen this car drive up and these two | people got out and they came and knocked on the door and my wife was in her negligee and she ran upstairs, you know, and Sam was there, We were getting ready to go get some oysters or something, I do not Know. 644 A HO 44-939 He remarked he is not cértain that the above-descri. 2d telephone caller from Dallas or the man who personally appcared at the J and M Drive-In was identical with the JACK RULY who killed LEE HARVEY OSWALD. To his knowledge, he has never seen or met LEE HARVEY OSWALD. MC KEOWN stated that he knew of no one by tne name of "Davis" who was convicted for gun running activity with Cuba. 645 1-F'-302 (Rev. 1-25-60) one eorent OF INVESTIGATIC () Vy DP Li a 1 . January 28, 1964 Date ROBERT RAY MC KEOWN, born January 28, 1913, residence Bay Cliff, Texas, unlisted telephone number Bay Cliff 9661492, upon interview at the Houton Division of the 7 FEI furnished the following information: UO45 He is presently employed as a salesman for the Houston Slush Pump Company, 2112 Quitinan Street, Houston, and he formerly resided with his Sister, MRS. FRANK DENNY, 9138 Wayfarer Street, Houston. His wife makes her residence in Miami, Florida. On February 25, 1958, he was arrested and charged with conspiracy to smuggle guns and related equipment to Cuba for the benefit and use of FIDEL CASTRO and his forces. On October 24, 1958, in the United States District Court, Southern District of Texas, Houston, Texas, he was sentenced for these activities to 60 days to serve and fined $500 on one count, and was given a two year sentence suspended for five years on good behavior on a second count. The period of his probation expired December 11, 1963. At the time of his arrest, conviction and sentencing, considerable publicity concerning him and his activities appeared in the press. His photograph appeared in the newspapers on a numoer of occasions. He knows FIDEL CASTRO personally, and when CASTRO visited Houston, Toxas, briefly in April, 1959, < MC KSOWN went to the Howton Airport, visited with CASTRO, and had his photograph taken with CASTRO. This photograph was widely publicized. CASTRO tried to persuade him to stay on the airplane and proceed to Cuba with him (CASTRO). However, because he was then on probation, he told CASTRO it would not be possible. CASTRO was somewhat irritated at this, and suggested that MC KEOWN disregard the probation and ' gO anyway. CASTRO stated he would give MC KEOWN 2 Government position in Cuba or perhaps he might give him some franchises or concessions there. MC KEOWN responded that he fully intended to comply with his probation to the letter, and stated he would come to Cuba when he could do so ina completely legal manner. : During 1958, while MC KEOWN was out on bond and prior to his sentencing, he and a MR, JARRETT entered a partnership and opened up the J and M Drive-In on Red Bluff Road near Taylor Lake and Clear Lake, in the vicinity of eR En a ee ee 1/24/64 Houston, Texas HO 44-939 eee TOU PSE oar hippo MOM oOruesk $3 SA DANIEL W. FULTS, JR. : mem 1/28/64 by Date dictatod This document contains neither tecommendations nor conclusions of the FBI. It is the property of the FBI and ts loaned to your agency; it and its contents are not to be distributed outside your agency. whe 646 2 HO 44-939 Keman and Seabrook, Texas. MC KEOWN obtained his share of the funds for this venture by borrowing from CARLOS PRIO SOCARRAS, former President of Cuba with whom he had a close friendship. About two years ago, MR. JARRETT died, and the business was sold. FIDEL CASTRO took over the leadership of Cuba on atout January 1, 1959, following the revolution which he had led. About one week after that, while he was on duty at the J and M Drive-In, Harris County, Texas, Deputy Sheriif ANTHONY "BOOTS" AYO appeared and said that some person had been frantically calling the Harris County Sheriff's Office in an effort to locate MC KEOWN. The name of the caller was not xnown to AYO, but he was calling from Dallas, Texas, and on the last call had said it was a life and death matter. MC KEOWN advised AYO to provide the caller with the telephone number of the J and M Drive-In. In about one hour's time, (8:00 p.m. or 8:30 p.m.) a person called MC KEOWN on the telephone and said his name was "Rubenstein". The caller Said he was calling from Dallas, Texas, and indicated he was aware that MC KEOWN had influence in Cuba and particularly with CASTRO. The caller stated he wanted to get three individuals out of Cuba who were being held by CASTRO. He stated that if MC KEOWN could achieve their release he would be paid $5,000 for each person. The caller added that @ person in Las Vegas, Nevada, would put up the money. MC KEOWN replied that he most certainly was interested in making some money, and assured the caller he could obtain the release of any person being detained by CASTRO; however, MC KSOWN specifically advised the caller he would do nothing toward this end until he was paid $5,000.00 in cash at the outset. The caller stated he would clear this with the man in Las Vegas, and would later recontact MC KEOWN. Nothing further was ever heard from this individual by MC KEOWN. About three weeks following this telephone call, a man personally appeared at tne J and M Drive-In and Spoke with MC KEOWN. This person did not identify himself to MC KEOWN, nor did MC KEOWN ask his. name. The man said he had a proposition whereby MC KEOWN could make $25,000. Wnen he indicated genuine interest in the man's proposition, they went to the rear of the Drive-In where patrons sit to 647 8 HO 44-939 @rink beer and where they could talk more privately: The man stated he had an option on a great number of jeens which were in Shreveport, Louisiana, and he desired to sell them to CASTRO at a very profitable figure. He wanted MC KEOWN to provide him with a letter of introduction to CASTRO, which letter would clearly indicate that the bearer was responsib le and reliable. MC KEOWN said he would gladly provide such a letter of introduction for a fee of $25,000, but before he undertook to do anything he would have to have in hand at least $5,000.00 in cash. ‘The man indicated he wanted the letter right away, whereupon MC KEOWN asked if he had the necessary $5,000 in his pocket. The man said that he aid not, but that he would go and get the money and return. Accord- ing to MC KEOWN, the man never returned nor did he ever again see him, MC KEOWN stated that from the numerous photographs he has seen in the press and in magazines of JACK RUEY, the man with whom he talked concerning the letter of introduction to CASTRO resembles RUEY. The man gave the impression of being or trying to be a "big shot", and his manner and attitude was rather haughty. While his recollection of this man is Somewhat hazy at this time, he vividly recalls the man had a small patch on his nose. MC KEOWN recalled he had asked the fellow what the patch was for, and he was advised that he had attempted to take out a blackhead and a small infection developed. To the best of his recollection, this man was probably 45 to 50 years of age, 5' 8" to 5! 10" in height, 200 pounds, stocky build, well dressed. He recalled the man had a tie clasp which matched his cuff links. He had no idea how the fellow traveled to the J and M Drive-In, _ and he never ascertained the man's name, MC KEOUWN advised _ that he feels strongly that this individual was in fact JACK _RUSY, the man whose photograph he has seen many times recently _ din the press. MC KEOWN commented that. because of the publicity éccorded him in connection with his gun smuggling activities, he was literally besieged with requests for favors, requests for interceding with CASTRO, et cetera, following CASTRO's successful effort in Cuba. He stated nis inability to leave tne United States during his probationary period Srevented him from fulfilling some of these requests which would have provided fabulous fees. 648 This fellow knocked on the door. As I opened the door he says, well, golly, I finally Hund you, You are McKeown, are you not? And I said yes, 4. And he said well, vy have looked for you quite awhile but I am sure that you are McKeown. So I invited him in. He had another gentleman with him and he was more or less in his shirtsleeves, you Know, he was not dressed up or anything, but the other fellow was dressed up, He says, I understand that you can supply any amount of arms, I said, who told you that? He says, well, I am pretty sure that you can do it. —~ lewetxea with whom you told about this visit? Mr. McKeown, Yes. I told -- I used to go out in the oil fields. I sold out in the oil fields. I travelled the oil fields and I knew all of the tool pushers and things like | that, and I told -- you see, I cannot remember names -~ one i Bag oil man there, I told him about it. He is a real big | oil man. I cannot think of his name. I told him about it an iz told'a couple of his henchmen. : You know, I told a few people. Mr. Purdy. Do you remember the name of any of the tool 661 pushers you told about this visit? | | Mr. McKeown, No, I do not remember the names. If I see them I would know that that was them. It has been a long | time ago. Mr. Purdy. Do you still have contact with any of them? Mr. McKeown. No, I do not. I am living in Miami, now. I have lived in Miami since 1966, Mr. Purdy. Do you know anyone who would remember who the big oil man was whom you told ahout this visit? Mr. McKeown. I used to know him. Mr. Purdy, Is your wife still: living? Mr. McKeown. Which one? Mr. Purdy. The one whom you told about this visit? Mr. McKeown. Pauline, the schoolteach2r? Mr. Purdy. Yes. Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Purdy. Is there any ather living person whose name you could give us that you told about this. visit? Mr. McKeown. Sam Neal, He was: there when he came. Mr. Purdy. Anybody besides Sam Neal, Mr. McKeown. I told my brother and I told my sister, Mr. Purdy. What is your sister's name? Mr. McKeown. pereth es Mr. Purdy, Do you have more than one brother? et —° 662 Mr. McKeown. Yes, One of them is dead and the other one is living. He lives in Houston, to Mr. Purdy. What is his name? se Mr... McKeown. Harry. Mr. Purdy. You told him about the visit? Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr. Purdy. When Mr. Neal called you and told you that Mr, Oswald was the man who visited your house, had you alread recognized that fact before he called you? Mr. McKeown. Yes, I had seen it, and then he called me. Well, as a matter of fact, it was still on the TV and I said yeah, Sam, that is the little bastard who was here, Mr. Purdy. Did you mention the visit of Mr. Oswald and Mer. Hernandez to anyone before the assassination? .Mr. McKeown. No. I did not pay any attention to it. If I had known it, I would have notified somebody. It would | be rice you coming to see me. I did not think anything about : it. They were just a couple of radicals, Mr. Purdy. After the assassination of the President, yo said that you LR Se the alleged assassin as a person who | had come to your house trying to buy four rifles and after 22 | the shagting of that person, Mr. Oswald, you said that you | | recognized the person who killed them as a person who tried i to make contact with Fidel Castro, Is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Yes, 663 Mr. Purdy, Did you consider going to the authorities rs with this information? Mr. McKeown. I think that I went to them. ~ Mr. Purdy. What authority did you go to? Mr. McKeown. I think it was up in the Federal Building eS up in Houston. I went to my probation officer -- I was Still on probation. What is that fellow's name? I cannot == = = remember names. He used to be a professional baseball player, played with the St. Louis Cardinals, and he was the head of | the probation in Houston. Fields worked under him. And then he transferred me over. He was a well-known ballplayer. I told Gus Mantuso -- you know, you have heard of hin, He was a‘ballplayer. And I told Frankie. He is a City Councilman in Houston, Texas now and I told Lawrence Mancuso, ty > Mr. Purdy. How long after the assassination did you tell your probation officer about your knowing Jack Ruby and ee =— “I Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr. McKeown, How long after the assassination? Mr. Purdy. Yes. Mr. McKeown. I do not know. I think Pields came down 7 and I told him, that is the guy who came to see me over there at that place. I had sold that place then. And he says, are you sure that is the guy? I said, I know it. I am positive that that was the fellow who came to see me. ia Mr. Purdy. You told the probation officer that you 664 knew Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald? ~m ‘Mr. McKeown. I did not know Lee Oswald, Mr. Purdy. Did you tell him that you had met both people? Mr. McKeown. I think so. I think I told him that he ~ is the one that had come to see me, eee oe Mr. Purdy. Is that a short time after the assassina- anern ee ie eg nw rer aves enn ee ee tion that you told him? | Mr, McKeown. I think so. | Mr. Purdy. You were interviewed by the FBI January 28, 1964. The assassination was November 22, 1963. Did you Jj ; tell these individuals that you had met Mr. Ruby and Mr, Oswald prior to your interview with the FBI on January 28, 1964? Mr.McKeown. I told them about Ruby, I did not tell * | them a thing about Oswald. Jaane Mr. Purdy. I am not talking about the FBI, I am talking | about these other people. You just testified that you told them about Mr. Oswald and Mr. Ruby. Did you tell these other people about them prior to your meeting with the FBI? | Mr. McKeown. No, You mean, did I tell anybody that I had met Oswald before the assassination? Mr, Purdy. You'testified that, following the assassina ! peters you told a number of individuals that you had met Mr. 665 Oswald and Mr. Ruby. Mr. McKeown. I told them that that was the man who came,to see me about buying the guns, yes. Mr, Purdy. Did you tell these people this information prior to the time that you had your FBI interview? Mr. McKeown. The FBI came out to the office where I was working right after the assassination. I do not know —. : whether it was one day, two days or three days. I do not know. I know they came out, | Mr. Purdy. Do you remember who it was? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Was it Mr. Foltz? | Mr. McKeown. It could have been, That sounds familiar.| | He was a very nice man, I know he treated me awfully nice : | S| and I went up to his office, up;in the Federal building. I Is | stayed up there a long time. i | Mr. Purdy. Do you recall meeting with him January 28, a 1964? "| Mr. McKeown, In his office, 2 | Mr. Purdy. That was some time after the assassination, | Mr. McKeown. I think’so, yes. z Mr.Purdy. You just stated that you were in contact with | 79 |the FBI a short time after the assassination, possibly a | 2e | | couple of days, as | Mr. McKeown. I am going to tell you I was in contact 44-105 0 - 79 - 43 666 when they contacted me. When did they contact me? Mr. Purdy. They contacted you January 28, 1964. Mr. McKeown. ried came to the office, they came where 4e I was working and they showed me their credentials and in they said they would like to talk to me. Mr. Purdy. Prior to the time that you talked to the FBI agents, did you tell some of these other people that you ‘had met Mr. Ruby:.and Mr. Oswald? Mr. McKeown. After the assassination, yes. After I | had seen him on TV. Mr. Purdy, But before the FBI interview? Mr. McKeown. Yes, I imagine. I told them right after dl wards. When Oswald was killed, naturally I told a few pacplal that that was the guy who came to see me. By any means I was not proud of it, but you know what I mean. You know how things like that are, hell, you want to tell somebody, that's. thasaisty little bastard who came to see me, Mr. Purdy.During the FBI interview, were you asked about Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr. McKeown. No. That is what I could never under- stand. Mostly he was talking to td about Ruby, If he said something about Oswald, I do not recall. Mr. Purdy. Did you tell him about Oswald? Mr. McKeown. No, not as T recall. Mr. Purdy. Did hev ask you about Oswald one way or the | 667 other? Mr. McKeown, Not as I recall. Most of it was about Ruby. Mr. Purdy. You stated earlier today that you told the truth to the FBI, is that correct? | Mr. McKeown. I told the truth? "| Mr. Purdy. Yes, Mr. McKeown. Yes, I told the truth. I am telling the truth now,. Mr. Purdy. Did you tell FBI Agent Foltz on January 28, | 1964, that to your knowledge you had never seen or met Lee Harvey Oswald? | Mr, McKeown. Before he came to my door? _ Mr. Purdy. Ever. At the time of the interview in ; January, 1964, did you tell the FBI agent that you had never, |at any time, seen or met Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr. McKeown. No. They did not ask me. Mr. Purdy. Does it refresh your recollection to know that the FBI agent reported that you told him that, to your knowledge, you had never seen or met Lee Harvey Oswald? — Mr. McKeown. Well, I do not know whether I did or not, * to be frank with you. I was scared to death because I was on probation and I was afraid that if I let people know that : 668 innocent. I was up at the top of the Columbus Hotel having dinner and I was not supposed to associate with anybody, ‘a no Cubans. Well Prio, Manola, two or three others, and you know, we talked a little bit. The next day the probation officer was at my door and he pointed his finger at me, you know. I told them that they just happened to be there when I came in. I made it my business not to fool with them anymore. ur. Purdy. Do you remember the name of the probation a =~ oo officer? Mr. McKeown. The one in Miami? Mr. Purdy. The one you were speaking about. Mr. McKeown, Robinson. Mr. Purdy, Do you remember his first name? Mr. McKeown. No. I know his name was Robinson. He Henpea me a lot, Mr. Purdy. It is your present recollection that you denied knowing Oswald to the FBI, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. I cannot recall whether I did or not. I ao: — am almost sure, if he had asked me, I would have told him he was the one who came to see me. Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, if you denied to the FBI that you knew Oswald, is that incorrect? SS aSe tS RSS = Mr. McKeown. It cauld be. I might have been wrong at 669 that time. You have got to take thiis in consideration that | I was pretty damn scared at that*:time. : am pretty nervous : right now.. eseens meee ses er See : Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, you were sentenced October 24, 1958, is that correct? This was the sentence that | followed up your arrest on February 25, 1958 that we referred | to earlier, | The =ee eee a ee records indicate that you were sentenced on october| 24, 1958 is , that correct? | Mr, McKeown. I do noti recall the date, but I know the sentence. | Mr. Purdy. At that time, you were sentenced to a two- year suspended sentence and five years probation, is that correct? © Mr. McKeown. Right. | Mr. Purdy. When did that five years probation hegin? Did it begin the day you were sentenced? Mr. McKeown, I do not know, I know I spent some time in jail, They gave me 90 days in jail, Judge Ingraham, and I thinkit was 59 days or maybe 60 days, he let me out on account that it was Christmas, Mr. Purdy. Is it your present recollection --- Mr. McKeown. Then I know I was on probation, Whether , my probation was the day he sentenced me or the day I got out i Of jail, I do not remember. | 670 Mr. Purdy. It was not later than the day that you got out of jail that the probation began, is that correct? to the task of the Committee. Mr. Dodd. Let us suspend for one minute. oe 1 (Pause) The Chair would advise counsel that the line of question = a + ing is designed to establish the credibility of the witness in regard to certain statements, Theréfore, I am going to | : overrule the objection of counsel. I am going to instruct | | the witness to respond to the question of counsel, | maine’ Seemcees a's nie anae teat cate Mr. Purdy. Mr, McKeown, our records indicate that you were convicted on October 24, 1958 and sentenced to 50 days and a $500 fine on one count and to a two-year suspended | sentence and five years probation on a second count. | ! Is that correct? SS oe SS Ss Mr. McKeown. I am sure it is. . Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown -- | i _ Mr. McKeown. Let me emphasize something else here now, | since you are getting into the jail business. That is the ———— first time that I was ever in trouble and I got inte that innocently and all I was trying to do is get my business back and I want you to Know that.: Mr. Purdy, Thank you. Mr. McKeown, when did your probation end? ee ee Se Ie Wo eee 671 Mr.McKeown. Five years after it Started, I do not know the exact date, but I was sure glad to get off of if, Mr. Purdy. Did your probation end December 11, 1963? Mr, McKeown. It could have been, I know I one him I said, don't you give me something, some kind oe of a letter Or something that I am off of this probation? He said no, he said you just don't have to report no more, Mr, Purdy, Therefore, Mr. McKeown, if your probation ended December 11, 1963, why were you hesitant to discuss your meeting with Mr, Oswald on January 28, 1964, which was -- : ce over a month after your probation had ended? You stated earlier that you were afraid to tell about Mr. Oswald because of your probation? © Mr. Bec: I was presuming I was still on probation. I was convicted -- have you got it down there when I was Se Tot — Se eee convicted? Was it in 1959, or when was it? SS ae a 6Se Mr. Purdy, It was October 24, 1958, Mr. McKeown. I know when I was living in that house I was on probation. I know that, because I had to make out a report every month and I know that Mr. Fields came down to. 'my 1 house, | | | Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, the records indicate that you 1 ' | were not on probation when you were interviewed by the FRI i{ ; h ‘ on January 28, 1964, Why did you not tell the FBI at that . ' iHy time that you had met Mr. Oswald? 672 Mr.. McKeown, Well, the only thing I. can say is the reason becauseI did not tell him ts. because he did not ask me. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall -- and this gentle- man that I went to see, this FBI man, the only thing that I can remember is we discussed the whole thing about Ruby. how he called me, how the Sheriff came and got me and asked me if he could call me and all of that. He was more or less interested in Ruby. Why he came to see me, that is the only thing, Mr. Purdy. The FBI report indicates that you denied to the FBI agent that you knew Mr. Oswald. Mr.™McKeown, Well, I did not know hin, Mr. Purdy. Well, the FBI report indicates that you had never seen or met Mr, Oswald. Mr. McKeown. Well, if I told him that, I sure made a mistake, Because Kennedy was assassinated before that, was he not? Mr. Purdy. Yes : Mr. McKeown. I was bound to see Oswald when he came to my door, Mr. Purdy. If you denied having seen or met Mr. Oswald 22 | it was not true? Mr.. McKeown. It must not have been, if I told him that, ! but I cannot recall telling him that, to be frank with you. Mr, Purdy. Mr. McKeown, can you think of any reason why 673 you would have denied having seen or met Mr. Oswald at that time? Mr.. McKeown, No. As a Matter of fact, I was all for te trying to clear it up, trying to see if he really did kill in Kennedy, which I do not thihe nkdid, Mr. Purdy. Do you have knowledge of, or did you parti- cipate, in any other meetings which involved Mr. Oswald? Mr.) McKeown. No, just the time that he came to my house, Mr. Purdy, Have you had contacts with anyone who has had meetings with Mr. Oswald? Mr.. McKeown. No, Mr. Purdy.- Did you know, or have you heard, of Mr. David Ferrie? Mr.’ McKeown, I have heard of him, yes. Mr. Purdy. How did you hear of him? Mr. McKeown, I do not know, I know I have heard of him. Mr. Purdy. You Know you have heard of him but you do. not know how? ~ Mr. McKeown. I thinkhe was a homosexual and he was - living in New Orleans and somehowor another this Garrison who was investigating him or something, and he asked me if I knew hin, That is the only thing I know, I did not know -- What the held I did not know him, — 674. Mr. Purdy. You do not know anyone who knew him? Mr. McKeown. No, I do not know anybody who knew hin. Mr. Purdy, Did you know of Mr, Guy Bannister? Mr. McKeown. I have heard of him, but I did not know him. Mr. Purdy. j Did you know anybody who knew him? Mr. McKeown, No. Mr. Purdy,: Did you know, or know. of, Mr. Clay Shaw? Mr. McKeown. I have heard of him, Mr. Purdy. Did you know anyone who knew him? Mr. McKeown. Garrison. Mr. Purdy. Did you know Mr. sergio Acotho Smith? Mr. McKeown. No. .- Mr. Purdy, Did you know of him? Mr. McKeown, Never heard of him, Mr. Purdy. Did you know Mr. George deMohrenshield? Mr. McKeown. He is the fellow who died in Miami a | while back, is he not? Mr. Purdy ; Yes, Mr. McKeown. I have heard of him, Mr. Purdy. How did you hear of him? Mr. McKeown. Through the newspapers, Mr. Purdy. Did you know: anyone who knew him? Mr.. McKeown. No, Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, have yau had any contacts with 675 the Central Intelligence Agency or any other intelligence service, either domestic or foreign? Mr. McKeown, I do not quite understand what you mean, Mr. Purdy, Have you had any direct connections with the Central Intelligence Agency? Mr. McKeown. Not knowingly, no, Mr. Purdy, Have you had any connections which you lat found gut had been with the Central Intelligence Agency? Mr McKeown, That have been with it and are not there now? Mr. Purdy. Yes, Mr. McKeown. ‘Yes, I later found out, but I did not know == I did not have no dealings with them whatsoever, Mr. Purdy. Can you explain the nature of those We : OeRPE Rca cae 4 wr contacts? . Mr. McKeown, I just met him and he told me that he used to be with CIA, : Mr. Purdy. Who was it? | Mr. McKeown. This gentleman knows him, right back here. Mr. Purdy, Do you recall the name? | Mr. McKeown, His name is Ross Crosier, | | Mr. Purdy, What were the nature of your contacts with him? Mr... McKeown, He was 24 friend, not what you would call an intimate friend. I just met him, Well, I met him at a 676 club. Mr. Purdy. Do you have any knowledge of any of his | activities? Mr.McKeown. Yes. | The only thing what he told me, he recoghized-me,. I'*did not know him from Adam, and he commenced telling me about Castro, he was over in’ the there mountains with Castro. So he says. Whether he was, I do not know. The only thing I am telling you is what he told me. He said that Castro had it in for him pretty well and he did not want to | go to Cuba. | Whether he was with CIA, I do not know. He told me | he was. Mr. Purdy. He told you that he was at the time you met him or later? Mr. McKeown. Maybe a day or two later. Mr. Purdy. Did you have any contacts with any other foreign or domestic intelligence agencies? Mr.McKeown. Not as I know of. Mr, Purdy. Do you know anybody who has? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Do you know if Mr. Prio had any direct or indirect contacts with the Central Intelligence Agency? Mr. McKeown. No. Purdy. Mr. Chairman, I believe that it would be 677 appropriate at this time for members of the Committee to ask| any questions that they wish pertaning to Mr. McKeown's | connections with Mr. Oswald? Mr, Dodd. Mr. Sawyer? Mr. Sawyer. Yes, I just have one or two concerning these four rifles. The .300 Savage scope rifles, Why would anyone want to buy rifles through some under- | ground souree, let us say, as opposed to just going to a | store and buying them? | Mr. McKeown. Like I told the gentleman there, I do not know. Like I told him, hell, you can go down to Sears and get them kind of rifles, I do not know why he came to me. Mr. Sawyer. What did he say when you said that? : Mr. McKeown. He said yes, but we want to get them through you. And I said, | you are not going to get them through me, I did not want anymore part of any kind of | | rifles. I would not be caught with a rifle. Mr. Sawyer. Rifles are not required to be registered | in Texas, are they? | Mr. McKeown. They sure are. Rifles. I take that | back. Guns, Mr. Sawyer. I know in a number of states handguns are. required to he registered. I do not know if any state requires the registration of rifles. 678 Mr. McKeown. To be frank with you, I think you can just go down to the hardware store and buy a deer rifle, shotgun, whatever, Maybe the law has changed. I used to buy them, you know, to go hunting. Mr. Sawyer. I think you have to be a resident of the state now, really, since the Oswald situation, but that was not the law then, Mr. McKeown. The law, I know ,to be a fact, if you go and buy a handgun, you have got to go to get a permit from a Judge and you have to take that permit back to this place where you are going to buy this gun and let them see it. Mr. Sawyer. The thing that is puzzling me still is why someone would be willing to pay $1,000 for a scope rifle when he could buy one at a store at that time for probably not more than $300, Mr. McKeown. That is exactly what I told him. That is what puzzled me, why he would come to me. I do not know. I cannot answer that question. Mr.Sawyer. He gave no answer when you asked that question? Mr ./McKeown. No, He says no, we want to get them through you. He says hecause we know you can get them for us. I said, you came to the wrong man, I am not going to get involved, and thank God I did not get them. 679 Since all of this has come up, boy I am sure glad I did not get them, Mr. Sawyer. Again, I am fairly familiar with rifles and, at that time, I would imagine that you could get a fairly good quality scope rifle somewhere in the neighbor- hood of $300 or less with a scope. Mr. McKeown, Sure you could. Mr. Sawyer. Without any requirement that you either identify yourself or that there be any registration process of any kind. Mr. McKeown. That was my opinion. Mr. Sawyer. It just does not make sense to me. I could understand why he might come to you to get some sub- machine guns or bazookas or something that are illegal weapons. Mr. McKeown. That is what he first mentioned when he first got there, machine guns and bazookas. Mr. Sawyer. That is all I have, Mr, Chairman. Mr. Dodd. Mr. McKeown, I would just like to proceed with you on what is confusing to me, anyway. rn your interview with the FBI where you were specifically, as I understand it, asked whether you knew or had ever met Lee Harvey Oswald, in that interview with the FBI after the Kennedy assassination. Could you state once again for the record what your 680 reasons were at that time of telling the FBI that you did not know or had ever met Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr «McKeown, Now, wait a minute. I think the question was put to me about Oswald through the FBI, I think he put it, "Are you not a friend of Oswald's," or something of that sort, and I said I do not even Know Oswald, Mr. Dodd, What was your rationale, your reasoning at that time, for stating that in fact, with an interview with Dan Rather where you are rather explicit? Mr. McKeown. The reason I said it was. I was telling the truth, I did not know him, Just because he came to my door, no reason I should know him, I do not know him from Adan, Mr. Dodd, Just a minute ago when counsel asked you whether you knew several individuals, for instance, Mr, deMohrenshield, your answer was only in the newspaper, If you had ever met Mr. deMohrenshield, I assume your answer would have been different. Is that a fair assessment? Mr. McKeown. Sure, Mr. Dodd. You had actually met Mr. Oswald? Mr...\McKeown. When he came to the door. Mr. Dodd. Your statement was that you did not know hin, Mr. McKeown, I did not know him, I am talking to you right now, I do not know you, right? 681 Mr. Dodd. I think you understand what I am getting at. Now you are being interviewed by the FBI who raises the name of an individual who was the alleged assassin of the President of the United States and you offer the FBI nothing more than astatement that you do not know hin, even though you are aware of the fact that this same individual had come to your door four years before, less than four years before, and according to your own state- ment had proposed to purchase from you weapons specifically four Savage rifles, telescopic type rifles, and your state- ment to the FBI said you did not know the man. Mr. McKeown. Well, I did not know him. I did not know him. The only thing I knew is that he came there, Mr. Dodd. How long did that meeting occur? Mr. McKeown. When he came to my house? Mr. Dodd, hae he came to your house, Mr. McKeown. Not over 20 minutes, 15 to 30 minutes. Mr. Dodd. Do you recall what he had on that day? Mr. McKeown. He did not have a coat on, I know that, but the other gentleman did. He had a tie on, too. Mr. Dodd. Oswald had a tie? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Dodd. The other gentleman? Mr. McKeown, Yes, Se = Mr. Dodd. Did he have a sweater on the color of his or H4-105 0 - 79 - 44 682 | shirt? Mr. McKeown, He might have had a sweater on, but I actually believe he was in his shirtsleeves,. Mr. Dodd. The other man, Mr. Hernandez? | | Mr. McKeown, He was dressed, | Mr. Dodd. Coat and tie? Mr. McKeown. Coat and tie. Very nicely dressed, He was driving the car, Mr. Dodd. Mr¢ Hernandez was driving the car? Mr. McKeown, Right, Mr. Dodd, What time of day was it? Mr. McKeown, About 10:00 o'clock in the morning, 9:30, 10:00, something like that. Mr, Dodd, . Let us suspend for just one second, (Pause) Mr, McKeown, at that meeting that you had with Mr. Oswald and Mr, warded! to the best of your recollection; was that a situation where both Mr. Hernandez and Mr. Oswald were transpiring business, or was Mr. Hernancez merely someone who was driving in the car along with him and it was Mr. Oswald principally who was doing the business? Mr, McKeown, It was Mr. Oswald who was doing ali the talking, | Mr. Dodd, Were you under the impression that hoth of 3 them were involved in the transaction together? I am asking § 683 for your recollection. I realize -- Mr. McKeown. I presume it was. Mr. Dodd. In business together, working together? Mr. McKeown. I presumed. I want to tell you Pte. Ae else, Maybe you should know this too. (Pause) I know Mr. Fonzi here. He has treated me awfully nice and I know that he did not tell nobodyabout me having to come up here and I know damn well I did not tell anybody except my daughter -— I take that back; I told Ross -- that about two weeks ago, maybe between 8:00, 9:00 o'clock at night, the phone rang and I answered the phone and somebody on the phone said this is McKeown? I said yes, He says when you go to testify at that committee, just remember there was no Latin involved,period, and hung up. Now, if that is any good to you -- as a matter of fact, I would like to see this thing come to a head. I would like for you all to catch the bastard who did kill Kennedy and if there is anything that I can do to help you, .. wit. Mr, Dodd. Was the accent of the voice on the phone a Latin accent? Mr. McKeown. No, American, But you know, a lot of Latins speak pretty good English, Mr. Dodd, Let me, for the record, say I said my ques- tion to you, rather than the Oswald meeting in '59, was the 684 Ruby meeting, the Oswald meeting, in '63, to clear up the record? Iihaveno further questions. Mr. McKeown, I know the Oswald meeting was before the assassination. Mr. Dodd. I realize that. That was my mistake. I will direct counsel to proceed with the final ques- tioning. Mr. Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A follow-up question on the meeting with Mr. Ruby. Did Mr. Ruby mention two or three Jewish individuals in connection with wanting the letter of introduction? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Did he mention a Mr. Goldberg or a Mr. Zaroff. Mr. McKeown. Not as I recall. He just mentioned that he had contacts with people with money. Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, we are interested in some of your dealings -- Mr. McKeown. Another thing he asked me, have you never heard of me? And I said, I do not know you from Adam, I never heard of you. Mr. Purdy. Did he say why you would have heard of him? Mr, McKeown. I do not know. He said ne was running a 685 night club in Dallas. He said, have you ever been to Dallasp I said yes, I have been to Dallas. He said, did you ever go in my club? I said, not as I recall, Mr. Purdy. Did he say what the name os his club was? Mr. McKeown. The Carousel, I believe it was, It was a nightclub. Mr. Purdy, As I was beginning to say, we are interes- ted with some of your dealings with Mr. Castro, I want to | follow up a reference you made earlier to a mysterious deal 3 you were involved with with a man named Mr. Butler whom you thought was connected with Ike Eisenhower. Could you elaborate on that for us? Mr. McKeown. Yes. Well, this gentleman came out to my place. Not Mr, ~ Butler, somebody else. —eeeeaaEaaaaoaaoaoaaaoaoaaoooeeeeeeoeee—e————eeeeEeeeeeeeeeeeeee eee SS. a I do not recall his name, Mr. Purdy. Was his name Porter? Mr. McKeown. Yes, it damn sure was. Jack Porter. Mr. Purdy. Please explain the story. eee Se See ee EEE GG Mr. McKeown. ————eee—e—E—eEeEEEEEEEEE—————ee ————e—eEEeEEEEE Anyway, he told me that it was a very — oe —T — mysterious thing. He told me, he says, do you have any work clothes like khakis, khaki pants and ie Bae I said well, I can get some. What is the occasion? He said we want you to go to the top floor of the Gulf | Building in Houston. We want you to get off two floors before no 686 you get to the top and walk up and dress like a working person. So I did, I went and when I got up there, Ike Eisen- hower, like the picture there, his picture was all over and the American flag was all over and he asked me if I knew anybody who was going to be on Castro's Cabinet and if I could use my influence to get a quota of sugar, I told him I was on probation. I could not go to Cuba. And he said well, we can get you to Cuba, I said what is it? I think he was a campaign manager for Ike Eisenhower or something. I really da not know who he was, but I know he was up in some kind of a campaign and this fellow Porter was there, And that was about all there was to it. He just sant me to use my influence to get a whole lot of sugar. | Mr. Purdy. Was this before or after your eri2hiBiti cecal encounter with Fidel Castro in the United States in the | | spring of 1959? | Mr. McKeown. This was after I had been arrested. | . ; | Mr. Purdy. Right. After you were arrested you hada | meeting with Fidel Castro when he came to the United States? Mr. McKeown. Right. He came to Houston. Mr. Purdy, That was after you had been arrested? Mr. McKeown. TI was on probation, Mr, Purdy. When was this incident about the sugar 687 quota? Was it after you met with Castro in the United States? Mr. McKeown. I think so, yes, Mr. Purdy. Do you remember how much time had passed since you had seen Castro? Mr. McKeown. Maybe about a week or so, something like that. I really do not know. Mr, PUrdy. Was it your impression that they came to you because of the publicity surrounding your meeting with Castro? Mr. McKeown. That is exactly what I thought. There would be no other reason. Mr. Burda. Did you contact anyone to try to follow up this proposed deal? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Was it your impression that the meeting with Jack Ruby was before or after your meeting with Castro? Mr. McKeown. I think it was after. Mr. Purdy. Was it your impression that he had seen the publicity about your meeting with Castro? Mr. McKeown. That is the reason. The only thing I can| | presume, that is the reason why he came to me, because of all | i the publicity. ' Mr. Purdy. About how long after that did he come to see; 688 Mr. McKeown. I do not know. Mr. Purdy. Did a lot of people call you after your picture was in the paper? Mrs McKeown. Oh, Jesus, Oh, my God, yes. Mr. Purdy. You say hundreds? Mr. McKeown. I would not say hundreds, I would say up in the twenties, Everybody was after me to do them favors, you know. Mr. Purdy. A lot of people had different proposals? Mr."McKeown. Yes. A big bunch of crap, Mr. Purdy, During your meeting with Castro he offered you a position in Cuba and asked you to come to Cuba, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Right. Mr. Purdy. What contact did you have with Castro after that time? Mr. McKeown, You mean since he took power? Mr. Purdy, I mean after you saw Castro in the United States, what contact did you have with him? Mr 2‘McKeown. One time 2 Mr. Purdy. What was the nature of, and when was that, contact? Mr. McKeown. Well, some friends of my brother were fishing and the Cubans confiscated their boat and brought them into Cuba, And my brother came to me and told me that 689 these three guys were real good friends of his and they mere, very innocent, they were not doing anything but just drifted| off into the waters of Cuba, unbeknownst to them, and they | were fishing. So he asked me if I could help get them out of Cuba, so I did. Mr. Purdy. Who did you talk to? Mr. McKeown. Castro. Mr. Purdy. Who did you talk to before you got through to Castro? Mr. McKeown. It tookme about two days to get through to him. Mr. Purdy. Do you remember anyone you spoke with? Mr. McKeown. No. Operators mostly. Mr.Purdy. When was that communication with Castro on behalf of your brother? i. ——— Mr. McKeown. It was quite awhile after he was in power, I do not know what year. It has been quite some time ago, ! quite awhile ago. | Mr. Purdy. The United States broke diplomatic relations with Cuba on January l, 1961, Was your contact with Casro before that time? | | Mr. McKeown. After | that time. i Mr. Purdy, After we broke diplomatic relations, | Mr. McKeown. On the phone, But not personally, : eee eee SS See eeeeeooooeoeee———eeEEEoEoEoe—Eeeeeee seems nee So Sn 90 meemereneeeen cei omen Rees coer re ainy eres 0atree SEES SR Sg eae ee se109. aeareses a I just did it as a favor to try to get them guys out of Cuba. | — ——+ ro 690 But I have not done anything like that. I have been offered quite a number of times to help get people out of Cuba, but I never did do tty Mr. Purdy. Do you remember anybody who asked you to help get people out of Cuba? Mr. McKeown, Quite a few. Mr. Purdy. Could you tell us some of those individuals Mr. McKeown, They were all Cubans, Mr. Purdy. Do you remember any of their names? Mr. McKeown, DelGado was one. They offered me money to get their father or their brother or somehody out of Cuba. I never did do that, I did not want to get involved.ff Mr. Purdy. You said a man by the name of DelGado called you and asked you to get somebody out of prison? Mr. McKeown. I was working where he was working. Mr. Purdy. You were working with him? Mr. McKeown. Yes, Mr, Purdy. What was his first name? Mr. McKeown, I do not know. Mr. Purdy. Where did you work with him? Mr. McKeown. I was an inspector, It wasa subsidiary of Aerodex, I cannot remember the name of it. It was in | Miami, Aerodex., You have heard of Aerodex, have you not? Mr. Purdy, No, Mr. McKeown. It is a big company in Miami that repairs 691 airplane engines, jets and things like that. And it was a subsidiary of that. Mr. Purdy. Does your working with Aerodex help refresh your recollection about when the call to Castro was? Mr. McKeown, No. It was before I came down here. Mr. Purdy. Can you give us a better idea of what year or what month the call was? Mr. McKeown, I would say maybe '65, you know. I came to Miami in '66 and went to work for them. Mr. Purdy, You called Castro after the assassination? Mr. McKeown. Oh, yes, long after that. Mr. Purdy. After the assassination you called him on behalf of your brother? Mr. McKeown, Yes. | Mr. Purdy. Did you discuss anything else with Castro? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. All you did was call you and ask you to get your brother out of prison? Mr. McKeown. If he would do it. Mr. Purdy. He said he would? Mr. McKeown. Not my brother, My brother was not in prison, My hrother's friends, Mr, Purdy, Do you recall who your brother's friends were? ! Mr. McKeown. No. I do not have to answer that, do I? 692 They were yery respectable people. They were oil people. My brother was in the oil tool and rental business and he knew a lot of people. Mr. Purdy. You stated today that your only contact with Castro since seeing him in the United States in the Spring of 1959 was a Seta to him after the aaa Mr. Mc Keown. Yes. Mr. Purdy. Dud you recetve any messages from him or send any to him? Mr. McKeown. I could not go over there and this fellow | came hack and told me that Castro was expecting me to come | over there, but I never did go. As a matter of fact, Ihave | not been in Cuba since he took power. Mr. Purdy, Did you send that person to see him? Mr.McKeown. No, I did not exactly send him, He was going over there. Mr. Purdy. Did he want to use your name with Castro? Mr .McKeown. Yes, Mr.Purdy. For what purpose? ‘i Mr. McKeown. Something about exchanging some money. Mr. Purdy. He wanted to exchange money for the money that was in use during Batista to the kind in use during Castro? Mr. McKeown, Right. Mr. Purdy. What was the man's name? 693 Mr. McKeown. I do not remember. Mr. Purdy. Do you Know anyone who would know his name? Mr. McKeown, I will tell you who he was. He was kind of a bodyguard for this Big oil man I was talking to you about that is there in Houston. He is a well-known man, but I cannot recall his name. I have not been in Houston in 12 | years, ° Mr, Purdy. Could that be Mr. Merchison? Mr. McKeown. No. I know him, no,. Mr. Purdy. How about Mr. Androtti? Mr. McKeown. Androtti? Mr. Purdy. Yes, Mr. McKeown. I know the name Androtti, but he lives in Miami. . Mr. °Purdy. Could it have been Mr, Byers? Mr. McKeown. No. DP thinkihieofirset pees es Frank, Mr, Purdy. You were discussing the individual who was going to use your name with Castro to exchange currency? Mr, McKeown. Right. Mr. Purdy. What was the message you sent to Castro? ——— eee SSS eS eee eeeeeeoeeeeeSSsSeeeeeeaeaeeaeaeaeaeeeeeeeeeeeaeaeaeaeeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeaeeaeeeeeeeeee—e oe Mr. McKeown. You see, he had this money and it was Batista's money, you see. It was a whole lot of money, ce me wr SS lS eee eS 0 aee Se aoaaee ce meee ec seeem I was under the aeiieeua tie -- I was not too mad at ——— ; : Castroat that time, because he had just took over, you know? 694 I thought he did the right thing. Now, I don't, but anyway. I thought it would be beneficial to him for him to get this money that he could get for 25 cents on the dollar, but he refused it. He told this guy, he said, let Batista eat that money. Mr. Purdy. When was this that this man went to see Castro?. Mr. McKeown. It was a little bit after Castro came to Houston, We came down to Miami, me and this fellow, and | we checked in over at the hotel on Biscayne and we stayed | there together for a couple of days and then he left to go over to Cuba and then he came back and told me what he said, that he would not do it, no way. Mr. Purdy, Did Castro send any messag2 or Rrantin to you? Mr. McKeown. No. Oh, yes, he did. He told this gentlemen, he said when McKeown comes here we are going to have the biggest party that Havana has ever seen, which may be a lie, I do not know. Mr. Purdy. Did you want the currency exchange to go through? Mr. McKeown. I thought it would benefit him, Mr. Purdy, Who? Mr, McKeown, Castro, Mr. Purdy. Why would it Benefit him? 695 Mr. McKeown. He could get all of that money for 25 cents on the dollar. | Mr. Purdy, Was this before or after Castro changed the currency? Mr. McKeown. Before, Mr. Purdy. How long after? Mr. McKeown. Right after, Mr. Purdy. Right after the meeting with Castro? Mr. McKeown. I did not say the very day, but right after that happened. There was so much of that money float-. ing around. | Mr. Purdy. Could it have been as late as August, 1959? Mr. McKeown. I do not knaw, Maybe a month or two months after, Mr. Purdy. The meeting with Castro was in April in i. 1959 and you think it was, at most, a month or two after that that this man went to see Castro? Mr. McKeown. It must have Been, yes, Mr. Purdy. You do not recall that man's full name? Mr. McKeown. No, I do not. I just seen him that Little { time. I was there in Houston at that time, I do not even | remember where I was living at at that time. : I--was:-running that business that I had over there. This particular man came down here to see me to dag this and we went to Miami. ae ea eee eee eee eee eS OSS eS 696 \ Mr. Purdy. Prior to your appearance here today has anyone connected with the Cuban government contacted you? Mr, McKeown, No, Mr. Purdy. Did you receive a call from anyone connec- ted with the Cuban delegation to the United Nations about your contacts with Castro priorto this appearance? Mr. McKeown. Well, Mark Lane met this man and this gentleman was under the impression that I was dead and he told me that if I could come to Cuba that Castro was very generous and he would like to show his appreciation. Mr. Purdy. How recentlwas y this call? Mr. McKeown, It has not been too long ago. Mr. Purdy. Within the last year, Mr. McKeown, Yes, Mr. Purdy, Within the last month? . Mr, McKeown. No. About a couple of months, Mr. Purdy. Was any mention made by that official of the Cuban government of your testimony before this Committed Mr. McKeown. No, this Committee did not even come into oti Mr. Purdy. Was any mentiomade n of your contacts, previous contacts, with Mr. Ruby or Mr. Oswald? Mr. McKeown, What do you mean? Mr. Purdy, Did the person who called you mention -- ee eee eee eee ess —— eee eee eee eee : eee eee eee Mr, McKeown. No. It did not have anything to do with =is 697 it. They just wanted to know, glad to know, that I was still living. Mr. Purdy. After Castro took power in Cuba, did you have information about anyone involved in attempts to overthrow him? — Mr. McKeown. Sure, Mr. Purdy. What were some of the groups that were interested in overthrowing Castro that you have personal knowledge of? Mr. McKeown. Prio. | Mr. Purdy. How long after Castro took power did Prio turn against him? Mr.“McKeown, When he left -- you know, he went over | there and he put two and two together, I will express it | that way. He found out that Castro was a Communist and he | ~ =— == he came to Miami. That iswhere he lived until he died. | Mr. Purdy. Was Mr. Prio involved in any plots to assassinate Mr, Castro? | Mr. McKeown. No, not that I know of, but I imagine -- ; | no, not that I know of, no. | a SS | Mr. Purdy. Do you know if anyone who was involved i] | eee SS considered assassinating ———ee—Ee—e—e—_—eEeaeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Castro? Mr, McKeown, Yes, SS —=— Mr. Purdy. Who? 698 Mr. McKeown. A woman. Mr. Purdy. What was her name? Mr. McKeown. Marceau Albinez. But she double-crossed a guy who was going to kill Castro and I think he got killed He was an American. Mr. Purdy. How did you learn of this? Mr. McKeown, Through Prio. Mr. Purdy, He told you that she had been in a plot to kill Castro? Mr. McKeown. But, you see, she was to blame for me getting caught, really. She was in with Prio and I used to go to her house and everything, and she wanted very much to overthrow Batista, and then she fell in love with -~- not an Ambassador, what do you call them? Consul -= and then she turned and worked against Castro, Mr .: Purdy, What was the name of the man she was involved with in the plot? Mr. McKeown . I do not know. He was a councilman ther in Miami for the Cuban government.” Mr. Purdy. Do you know how they were going to kill Castro?. Mr. McKeown, Yes, With a rifle. Mr. Purdy. Do you know who was going to do it? iy ane ewes I do not know him personally. I know he was an American. 699 Mr. Purdy. Did you ever know the man's name? Mr. McKeown. No. I do not remember. Maybe his name was Morgan, but I am not sure, Mr. Purdy. Could his name have been William Morgan? Mr. McKeown. I do not know whether it was William Morgan or not. Mr. Purdy. Did you know a William Morgan? Mr. McKeown. I have heard of him. Mr. Purdy. Did you ever meet him? Mr. McKeown. Once, Mr. Purdy. When did you meet him? Mr. McKeown. In a lawyer's office. Mr. Purdy. What were the circumstances surrounding your meeting him? tion. Mr. Purdy. What was the date of that meeting? | | Mr."McKeown. I really do not know. It has been quite awhile ago. | Mr. Purdy. Was it before your arrest? | | Mr. McKeown. I think so. : Mr, Purdy. You have said Miss Albinez was at least part | | of the reason that you got arrested. Mr. McKeown. Yes. Mr. Purdy. Which was February, 1958, so you believe it) 700 was probably before February, 1958? Mr. McKeown. I will tell you the whole story about -$_ —— it. This fellow came from Costa Rica, the one I told you about. Well, Re Knew that Marceau was in with us, with the overthrow of Batista. So that it was cold. So he went to her to borrow her husband's overcoat because it was cold down in Texas and she had him followed, Now, that is the story. That is the reason they caught us, | Mr. Purdy. In your testimony today you talked about | the currency exchange ideas occurring shortly after your : meeting with Castro in April, 1959. Earlier today, you | said that the meeting with Mr. Ruby occurred shortly after | Castro took power in January, 1959, | After we talked about the currency exchange idea, you | said that you saw Ruby after you met Castro, Did youvmeet Castro before or after you had met Ruby? Mr, McKeown. The only time I met Castro since this thing was when he came to Houston. Mr, Appel. Could I request a recess? Mr. Dodd. The Committee will stand in recess, (A brief recess was taken.) Mr. Dodd, The Committee will come to order, Counsel | May proceed, Mr. Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 701 Mr. McKeown, ! you were discussing the plot that Mr. Prio! told you about. You had said that the plot had occurred prior to your arrest, which was in February, 1958. Is that correct? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Could you tell us when the plot took place? Mr. McKeown, There were so many plots, which plot are ee you talking about? Mr. Purdy. The plot with the woman, Miss Albinez. You said that Mr. Prio told you about a plot that was involved with her. When was that? Mr. McKeown. Right after he took over. As a matter oN —— — ———— of fact, he was going —————————————————————————————————— —— —————— into Havana. They were supposed to kill him when he went into Havana. Mr, Purdy. That would have been January '59? oe SE SS SEES Se ws SR ae ne Mees ee a es Aa SSee a Mr. McKeown, Right. Mr. Purdy. You stated earlier that Mr. Prio became disillusioned with Mr. Castro shortly after he took power, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Yes, a Mr, Purdy. Was Mr. Prio behind the plot which occurred when he was going into Havana? Mr. McKeown. Not that I know of. oes se Seana ee Mr. Purdy. He just learned about it from the woman? eT Mr. McKeown. He learned about it.: 702 Mr. Purdy. Do you have information about any other plots to kill Fidel Castro? Mr. McKeown. Just what I read in the papers. Mr. Purdy. Did you learn from anyone else about plots to kill Fidel Castro besides the newspapers? Mr. McKeown, No. Well, yes. There were some people who came to me and offered me quite a sum of money and told me that we believe that you are the only one who can really get close to Castro. And they wanted me to kill him. Mr. Purdy. When was that? Mr. McKeown. It has been some time ago. Mr. Purdy. Before or after the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr, McKeown. After he took power. Mr. Purdy. Was it before or after the assassination of President Kennedy? Mr. McKeown. It was after. Mr. Purdy. After the Kennedy assassination? Mr. McKeown. Oh, yess ~s Mr. Purdy. Can you give us an idea of how long after the Kennedy assassination the plot was? Mr. McKeown. . I came here -- not here, Eut Miami, in ‘66, and I guess it was about '68, because IT had werked -- Oatrce te Wor Mende 7 and you want to know who 5s 703 Mr, Purdy. Yes, | Mr. McKeown. Have you ever heard of a Cuban named Torrento? Mr. Purdy. Torrento? | we ee So aewe eee see aee Mr. McKeown. They killed him. eae Mr. Purdy. Pardon me? Mr. McKeown. They killed him. Mr. Purdy. The same person who offered you money killed Torrento? Mr. McKeown. Torrento is the one who Et AS ob ameeoeen oo at Sana osJaera ey ws ie ws S—. offered me money. Mr. Purdy. Who killed him? Mr. McKeown, Hell, I do not know who killed him, They SS See: killed him in his living room, shot him through the gars | Mr. Purdy. Were they people working for Castro? canines wade Mr. McKeown. I do not know. Mr. Purdy. You said people came to you to offer you = money to kill Castro? Who else came to see you besides Torrento? Mr. McKeown. Nobody. Ce Mr. Purdy. What you are saying is that only one person came, oostimoen omnes =veSee Mr. McKeown. Torrento. He was in a movement there in Miami. As a matter of fact, all of the Cubans that worked around Miami, they were supposed to give the day's wages to Torrento to, you know, he was guaranteeing that he was going | 704 | | to overthrow Castro and he got killed, | nw | Mr. Purdy. How much money did he offer you? Mr. McKeown. $100,000. Mr. Purdy. Where did he get the money from? in Mr. McKeown. I do not know. Where the hell do they all get the money from? That is what I would like to know. Mr. Purdy. Did he mention anybody else who was involved in the plot? Mr. McKeown. No. | Mr. Purdy. Did he mention whether or not you would naval | to personally kill Castro? Mr. McKeown. He emphasized that. He said, you are the only one who could get to him. { | Mr. Purdy. This was in the mid to late 1960's? Mr. McKeown. 1968. S| Mr. Purdy. 1968? | | Mr. McKeown. ‘'68 or '69, somewhere in there. i | Mr. Purdy. Did you tell anyone about Mr. Torrento's | | offer to you? | | Mr. McKeown. No. Well, I might have told a couple of ' Cuban friends, but outside of that, I really did not think much about it, because I was not going to do it anyway. I told him the $100,000, if you offered me $1 million, I would not do that. Anybody.who killed him is going to get killed. I am not quite ready to die. 705 Mr. Purdy. Did Mr. Prio tell you about any other plots to kill Mr, Castro? Mr. McKeown. No, not as I recall. Mr. Purdy. He only told you about the one plot which involved Miss Albinez? Mr. McKeown. Yes, eee —————eS ee eee You see, Prio was very bitter towards Castro and before ee a a ann ne ee an ws ona —- I went on the CBS broadcast -- do you remember that? Well, I went to Prio's house, you know, to discuss it with hin, whether I should do that or not, because I had a lot of offers from other people to write books, to do this and do that, but Inever did do it. So I went to Prio, I went to his house and I discussed it with him about these people Port me to go on the television, you know, about the assassination, you know, about Oswald coming to you, particularly with the Spanish man who was with him, or say Latin. I do not know whether he was Cuban or what, you know. He was Latin. And I told Prio:about that and he said, my God, yes, do everything you can to get Castro involved in it. You can understand his position. He was very bitter towards Castro. You see, as a matter of fact, Prio is the man who practically furnished all of the money to overthrow Batista and then Castro turned out like he did. Mr. Purdy. Prior to Castro taking power, who did Mr. 706 Prio get that money from? Mr. McKeown. I do not know where he got the money from. I do not know where he got the money from. Mr. Purdy. Did Mr. eft ever tell you where he got any of the money from? Mr. McKeown. No. Mr. Purdy. Did he ever tell you he got the money from any agency of the United States government? Mr. McKeown. Oh, no. I know where he got the money from, but that is beside the point. He had the Immoney. Mr. Purdy. Where did he get the money from? Mr, McKeown. ‘Just hearsay. Mr. Purdy. Please tell us what you have heard as to —— the sources of Mr, Prio's money. Mx. McKeown. Well, you hate to talk about the dead -- you know, the man is dead. He was supposed to burn up $300 million and he did not burn it up. He brought it to the United States. Mr. Purdy, You are talking about Mr. Prio? Mr. McKeown. Yes. Mr. Purdy. That was some money -- Mr. McKeown. That was some money. Mr. Purdy. That was some money that he used to try toa overthrow Castro? Mr. McKeown. Yes. a = E 707 Mr. Purdy. Where did he get the money to try to over- | throw Batista? | Mr. McKeown, I guess he used some of that $300 million | He had a safe deposit box as big as that desk you are al at. Mr.Purdy. You are talking about after Castro took over, Prio got that money, that $300 million, and had it | taken to the United States? Mr. McKeown. Yes. | Mr, Purdy. How about before that? Prior to the time . Mr. McKeown. No. Not before. Not before. As a matter of fact, Prio and Castro were good friends. - Mr, Purdy. That is what you said earlier. You said Mr. Prio helped finance -- Mr. McKeown. He financed Castro. He trusted Castro. Mr. Purdy. Where did he get the money? Where did Mr. Prio get the money? | Mr. McKeown. He was supposed to burn this money up | _ in Cuba and he did not burn it up. \ — Mr. Purdy. Are you talking about prior to the time | Castro took power, when Castro and Prio were working | together, Prio was financing Castro. Where did Prio get that money? Mr. McKeown. I do not know where he got the money. / He probably used the money that he brought over here when he 708 over here. | came You see, he left Cuba -- you know, Batista overthrew | him right after that, but he had this money over here already. 4- Mr. Purdy. \When Batista overthrew Pria, that is when Prio took the money to the United States? Mr. McKeown. I imagine he took it before that. 5 you not think so? Mr. Purdy. Do you know of any other sources of money that. Mr. Prio used.to finance Castro's overthrow of Batista Mr. McKeown, No, I do not know where he got all of that money, _ Mr. Purdy. Was Prio ever involved with any Americans who ee working in the casino business in Cuba? Mr. McKeown. No, not that I know of, because I know he was against gambling, I really do not think that he was involved with the so-called Mafia under Batista that ran the casinos. I do not think Castro was involved. I know four or five of them came to me and wanted me to try to help get hack over there, Mr. Purdy. Who were they? Mr .. McKeown. Just people who came to me who wanted -:. ==>: = any government gets benefits where there is gambling, if they allow it, Mr. Purdy. After you said that you could not go to Cuha becauseof your probation, did they suggest, or did you suggest the possibility, of your sending a letter to Castro? es anw ww a Mr. McKeown. Yes, buct tala noe dO Lt. i Mr. Purdy, Why did you not send a letter? Mr. McKeown. Because I did not want to. Mr. Purdy, You did not need the money at that time? Mr.. McKeown, I always need money, Right now, I don't have one dime to rub against another. 723 Mr. Purdy. Did they offer you any money to intercede with Castro? Mr. McKeown. They did not exactly offer me any money. They just said that I would be taken care of, Mr. Purdy, When you refused ta help them, did they offer you a specific amount of money, or did they discuss -_—+ A AL ALLEALELAL AAA POLL ALO LL LLC ALL LO tt ttt ft tt th Mr, McKeown, Well, I heard by the grapevine that there 6 were a couple of Senators’. mixed up with the getting of the arms, Hut who they were, I de not Know, Lf, Tadidy: Ivewould tell you, Mr, Dodd, Who did you hear that fram? ee eee SS a SS SS 742 Mr. McKeown. Prio,. Mr. Dodd. “Was there anybody else, to your knowledge, who would Be privy to that same rumor? | Mr. McKeown. No ; not as I can recollect, Nobody said anything more about it. | The way it came up I said, Boy, you're sure getting a lot of arms, x said, how are you getting all this money? He says, I have connections in Washington, Mr. Dodd. How aid he happen to bring up the word Senators? Connections in Washington could be anything. Mr. McKeown. The way it was, he was trying to get the United States government to recognize a government in exile -- do you understand? Mr. Dodd. ‘Yes, Mr. McKeown, “= at that’time, And he told me that he might he ahle to get it through. As a matter of fact, they neyer did get it through, but he said there were a couple of Senators helping:him out, Who the Senators were, he “never said and I never asked him, Mr. Dodd. Would you be awareof any other individual who might also have heard that same rumor who would have heard it from Mr. Prio? Mr. McKeown, I do not know, because him and I were by oursel when vesthat conversation came up, I do not know of anybody, He might have told quite a number of people that] 743 I do not know. I really do not know. | Mr. Dodd, may I go back again? | Since we have made this little break -- you know I have never been before the | Warren Commission, as you know. I am sure you know that. Mr. Dodd, I know that. | | Mr. McKeown. This gentleman from the FBI that came out to the office where I worked and then I went up to him, I | know, I am almost positive-- of course, it has heen a long | time, you know -= but I am almost positive that the word | Oswald did not even come into the picture, and I stayed | there with him, I would venture to say two hours. | And in this Warren Commission, I got a copy of it, | there was only one word in there about Oswald, the testimony that rt made, It was that I did not Know Oswald. That was | all that was in there, if you read it, I am sure you have, ; : | But after I get to thinking -- I told my attorney here | down when we were eating -- I get thinking and thinking ! | | 5a about this, All he was interested in was Jack Ruby, He | | was realiy interested in Ruby, But the word Oswald, I do not - eyen think it came into the picture. If it did, I really -- | really, I would Be almost to God with you, if I remember | hack right, he did not hardly mention Oswald, te mth Itt7 | ee Mr, Dodd, You never voluntarily -- | Mr .McKeown, No, Mr. Dodd, <= made mention of Mr. Oswald? > ee 744 Mr. McKeown. Not voluntarily. He sat me down there and he says, you answer the ques-. tions I ask you and he says, just tell the truth, that's all. I know you are not implicated in this, But he says, just tell me how much did you talk to Ruby, Jack Ruby? » That was what he told me, and he was really -- he wanted to know more about Jack Ruby than anything else. That is almost all he talked about, was Jack Ruby, Mr. Dodd. ‘Mr. Fithian? Mr.. Fithian, Thank you, Mr.. Chairman, . Mr. McKeown, as you know, we are trying very hard to get all of the story and all of the facts that pertain to the assassination of the late President Kennedy. I realize, and you have mentioned on two or three occasions today, that has heen quite a long time ago. A fellow's. mind plays” tricks on him oyer the years, Mr, McKeown, Let me answer that,. Mr, Fithian, I will make a couple of comments, then I want to ask youa questions, It is hard te remember back. It is hard for me to remember back three terms ago, What I want to ask you, you may not be able to answer with a great deal of assurance that you are right, or firmness, But is it possible that due to the fact that you did meet Jack Ruby and therefore, ~ 745 were one of the few Americans who were in contact with a | person very directly related to his assassination, and | 1 then subsequently you have seen movies or television progr | or radio programs, you have looked at | the Warren Report, all of the discussion -- | Mr. McKeown, I did not look at thé Warren Report. I | just got my testimony through this FBI agent. | Mr, Fithian, Yes, | What I am getting at is this, Is it possible that | your memory that you met Oswald could be wrong? | Mr, McKeown, Are you trying to say -- or maybe I am | misunderstanding you -- that Oswald did not come to see me? Is that what you are referring to? | Mr, Fithian, T am trying to ascertain whether or not | ee ee eee SS certain tricks of the mind cannot sort of project backwards | for ten or fifteen years and come.up with something =— >= that | you belfeve to be true and you visualize ta be true, but | it is very hard to nail it down, It is Rard to prove this, | Tt am not saying that you are wrong or right, T am just | aeEtaae whether or not, in your own judgment, thinking back | eee to that time, that maybe Jack Ruby only came to see you | once, or. once or twice, and then frittered out of the picture, and as you got to thinking abou it t more and more, it loomed ! larger in your mind than it really is, Sometimes that happens to all of us, 2I.am not in any annis» 3 scee Ui ndiSeat tps F in eee 44-105 0 - 79 - 48 746 way, putting you down. I am just asking you whether or not this ts possible, that what now seems to be a very important | event,’ that is, you talk to Jack Ruby seyeral times, you saw Lee Harvey Oswald -- I am wondering if it is a possibil- ity that that has just grown in your own view to something that really exceeds the reality? I would appreciate your comment on that. Mr. McKeown, All right. When a President of the United States is maliciously killed, like Mr. Kennedy was, President Kennedy, and you see . SO sie pa the television that you had talked to, that is very, very pressing on your mind, Do you understand what I mean? You cannot for get that. ’ There are a few other things maybe you can forget, Mr. Fithian, Let me interrupt right there, I tried to put myself in your position. Here is a person who has talked with Jack Ruby, who knows Fidel Castro personally, who, like every American of our age, was absolutely stunned by the news that President Kennedy had been assassinated, Mr. McKeown. I. cried like a baby, Mr. Fithian, You could Blot it out, the whole world, ~ in our conscious memory. I find it almost totally unbelieyable that, given ‘someone like yourself, who took the President's death as tragically as any of us, would subsequently sit down with a 147 member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and talk and answer the questions-- now, you were not on trial. They were “hot pressuring you, you were not pressuring them. I find it almost unbelievable, in retrospect, that during the courseof that discussion with an agent of the highest law enforcement group in the United States, that you would overlook the fact that you had seen Lee Harvey Guwald: If it is so graphic, the death of President Kennedy, as it was on all of us,it would seem to me that there is not one chance in 10,000 that you would sit down with a member eee eee lll eee =nSee of the FBI and just casually terminate the inquirey in the discussion of Jack Ruby and not eyen thinkto mention the fact that you had indeed in the presence of the President's killer who was now claiming to be the only assassin of SSE ee President Kennedy, That is the only problem I am haying with your testi- mony. Mr, McKeown . Well, I really cannot expalin it to you, The only thing I can say, like I told Dan Rather, he asked me the same question you are asking me about Oswald, and oo eae what he could not figure out is why the Warren Commission did| not call me and ask me about Oswald, Mr,. Fithian, ‘Do you Know how the President was killed? i | Did you know that he was shot with a rifle? You are aware of eS — Se SS SS 748 | that, are you not? Mr. McKeown. I read it in the paper, Mr. Fithian, thatis what I mean, It was reported, flashed over the news, dramatically, Now you say, had you been in contact, personal contact ~ in your home, with the President's. assassin, but you tell : this Committee that the President's assassin had pushed you | to buy rifles, | Surely, eyen in the most casual connections between jos oe ee ———— nS talking with Oswald in person, right there in your home, is his asking you to sell him the high-powered rifle with | Scopes, and the fact that the Presidentiof the United States was killed by a high-powered rifle with scopes and the fact of your being subsequently being asked by the FBI to ——— ee tell-them all you know. | | } I find it just incredible that you can sit there for r]. five minutes, let alone two hours, or whatever it was, and | | not think of the fact that it was important to the Federal | ee ee See See ae a Bureau of Investigation, that it was important to the United d i States government, that it was important to the American people, that you had been asked by the killer of the Presiden to sell hima rifle, IT am just -~ I am trying hard to believe you, but I am telling you, that is hard to Believe. Mr, McKeown. TI am going to tell you something, You'd seers eo ee te 749 hetter helieye me, Because I am telling the truth and know it as well as I am sitting Here that that FBI man =< I do not think he asked me about Oswald, Mr. Fithian, I donot ‘doubt that at all. Mr, McKeown. I do not Believe he asked me one ward about Oswald. ' Mr. Fithian. “He had no reason to ask you about Oswald r SES SETS ES a Se LE ES eS eee 56 he did he? Your own known connection << Mr, McKeown, He told me to begin with,to answer the \ questions he asked me, That is what he told you, Mr. Fithian. Your only known connection, to that man | interrogating you, your only known connection, suspected || ———_ connection, was could you give them a couple of pieces of | the mosaic so that they would know a little bit more ahout | “= Jack Ruby, THat is the only reason they were talking to | you, is that they knew that you knew Jack Ruby and that you | had possifily met Jack Ruby, So there was no way that they would, out of the clear Blue sky, know that you had any contact with Oswald, | It seems to me that, in your love of the President, your eee thought for. the President, your concern for the whole issue, | I just repeat, < cannot belieye that you would not, at some | ——— time before you got up ahd walked out of that room, say, by the way, I also met Oswald, or something to that effect, a ==z Mr, McKeown, ‘I wish T had, The only reason I did not 790 | tell him was because he did not ask me, and that is the || God's truth. He did not ask me, The only thing he was | asking me about was Jack ‘Ruby. Mr. Fithian, In your discussion with Mr. Rather -- do you remember that? The Dan Rather CBS program? The transcript of your discussion with Mr. Rather has || your saying this: "Rather: 'Did you talk to the FBI about Oswald's. coming to see you?'" That is his question, Apid || you talk to the FBI about Oswald's coming to see you," | | Your respanse to him, to Mr. Rather; "McKeown, ‘I think they did ask me if I knew Oswald, I think that I told| | them I did not Know him, never heard of him, or something # like that. I am not sure, It was up in the Federal ley up in Houston where they askedme to come up there and, of | course, IL was scared, you Know, and neryouse too,'" =. and | I understand that. i Now we have three vers ions, We have one in which wea | have the PBI Report. We have one here in a very recent | interyiew of you by Mr. Rather in which you say yes, you think that they did ask you about Oswald and you told them | that you. did not Know him or had not met hin, And now, the third version comes ta this Committee where you seem yery sure that you had met Oswald, or you seem yery Sure that you recognized him on the television screen, That is, that picture might have been at the time when he was H Vol being assassinated by Jack Ruby. You can hardly make it | | Buty let alone severah years match ago, it up with somebody you have seen | Mr. McKeown. The picture I was looking at was pretty | goad, | Mr, Fithian, Why. did you tell | Mr, Rather in this transcript: "I think I told them I did not know him, neyer heard of hin, or something like that," Mx, McKeown, Why did I tell Mr. Rather that? | Mr, Fithian, Yes, Why did you tell Mr. Rather some- | thing so shockingly different than you are telling me right | now? | Mr, McKeown, I really do not know, I will tell you, | Dan Rather is a very forward man,’ as you know, and he was | popping questions to me =- well, as a matter of fact, the : Program was on the TV for about fifteen minutes and I was down there eight days with him, so you can understand, | | Mr, Fithian, Mr, McKeown, I guess I cannot understand, I guess I cannot understand, because we are dealing with the | 1 eyents surrounding the assassination of a man that you and | | | I both loyed and admired and respected and revered, and I : -- t just do not want you, or anybody else, mucking this story or | | makingup this story or trying to rewrite history for commer- ;| cial gain, or anything else that might_be motivating you here, : | because your story then and your story to Rather and your | 752 story now, they do not square with one another, That is whyI was very gentle, at the outset of my questioning, in asking you whether you thought it was possible that the mind over the years plays tricks on you. Bo you think that is possible now, given this obvious direct confrontation between what you said with the FBI, wha ed a you tol Dan Rather, d and what you are now telling me and Mes at eee ae ee ern 9 SRN ee ee ae the rest of this Committee? Mr. McKeown, Well, T told you at this Committee ahout the man knocking on my door and he came in, I inyited him in, Him and this other gentleman, I told you that, That. is the truth, Now, if that was not the truth, how come Sam Neal calls me up from ahout 1,000 miles away and tell me s that is the nS ta Se oc rir _guy who was at your house? Mr. Fithian, I. do not know. ‘Thatis one of those unanswered questions, Mr. McKeown. I know it was him, Mr. Fithian, The same question I have asked you twice now, if that was true, how cauld you sit through an FBI questioning and not tell the FBI that you knew this man or = that you had met him, or how could you tell Dan Rather one thing and this Committee another?. Because those dates are not all that far apart, Mr, McKeown, To be frank with you, I will tell you, 793 Dan Rather -- Mr, Fithian. I am serving, just temporarily, as the Chairman of this Subcommittee. I am not the Chairman. I am Se Speaking as just one member, Let me remind you that you are here under immunity granted by a court of the United States and therefore, for any gunrunner violation of parole, any and all of those things, any criminality, we cannot act. But, Mr. McKeown, we can act, as a Committee of the United States Congress, if you lie to us. We can act. if you try to obstruct our efforts to get at the whole story for whatever reason. You do understand that? | Mr.McKeown. And I am sure -- | Mr. Fithian. I am going to ask you again, did you | meet with Lee Harvey Oswald? i Mr. McKeown. At my door. Mr, Fithian. Are you sure you met Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr.McKeown. Positive. Mr, Fithian. Did you intentionally -- | | Mr. McKeown. He did not say Harvey. He said Lee Oswald. Mr. Fithian. Did you intentionally keep this informa- | tion from the Federal Bureau of Investigation? i Mr. McKeown. No, I did not. Mr. Fithian. Did you intentionally conceal this infor- Mation from the FBI? | 704 Mr. McKeown. No, I did not. Mr, Fithian. Did you intentionally mislead Mr. Rather in a CBS interview? ree Mr. McKeown. If I did, it was unbeknownst to me if I did that. The only thing he asked me -- the thing that he was more interested in was about the guy wanting the four guns, That is what he was more interested in than anything. And I told him, just like I told you, that he came back twice, He was there and then he came back. As far as me getting my story mixed up, maybe I got it mixed up. You know what I mean. How long has it been? It's been about 16 years, has it not, around there, From the| time that this has happened, I have lost one of my lungs, I have lost all of my stomach and I have been sick ever since, practically. . ‘I lost every damn job I get because of it, on account of it, and that's the truth. I got a good job down at the Reynolds Aluminum Company, Corpus Christi, as a projects engineer, assistant projects. As soon as they found out that I was mixed up in this business they fired me. Every a SS job I have got, I got fired from the pump company as soon as the FBI came out there, Mr. Fithian. Do you think that this whole event owes you something, then? Is that what you are saying? Mr. McKeown. What do they owe me? It does not owe me 3 nothing. Mr. Fithian. I am sorry. I am not following your ta explanation as to why you told Mr. Rather something, one te thing, and you are telling us another. Mr. McKeown. What am I telling you except what I told him? I am just telling you the man came to my door. Mr. Fithian. You are telling Mr. Rather here that the FBI en Se SSS as eee did, indeed, ask you if you knew Oswald and you are telling me that the FBI never did raise the question, and that is why you did not tell them. That is what you are saying. Mr. McKeown. I think that is what I said. ma pm nm a Mr. Fithian. In our transcript here in the last fiftee or twenty minutes that is all you have told me over and over again, all day today and on two or three different occasions| you said that the reason you did not mention Lee Harvey Oswald is that the FBI never raised the question. Well, very recently you told Dan Rather something 180° opposite that, ‘You said they asked the question -- Mr. McKeown. Maybe he put them words in my mouth, eee eS ee eee eee ooo you know. He's pretty E008 “= Mr, Fithian. I am trying not to put any words in your mouth. I am trying to stick to the straight story here. ee ee ea eee ee ee ee ee eee ee 7. ee ee a I am having a lot of difficulty, first on the basis of just -- = asatts ==== 796 Mr. McKeown, I certainly do not want to cause you | i] any trouble. | Mr, Fithian. Will you rethink your answer just on the 4- basis of the logic of it. Someone who was alert to inter- national affairs, political affairs, as you were, the most | ~ dramatic, searing thing that happened in American aa society, : the assassination of an extraordinarily popular handsome young President, shocked the society down right to its roots, } | As one of the few people in the whole United States who,!’ ! now you tell us, was in contact with the assassin | of the | : President and with the person who killed the President's | assassin, you are later questioned by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and you just conveniently do not tell them that you know anything about Oswald, . . neces =2->-- Se : I cannot find any explanation for that. Can you, in your own mind, find any reason? Mr.McKeown. I agree with you. Mr, Fithian. It is so implausible, Mr. McKeown. Yes, it sure as hell -—— I look at it the Same way as you. If he had asked me, I certainly would have told him, I do not know. You see, Ruby came to my place long before the assassination. Mr. Fithian, _- et et I understand that. Mr. McKeown, I believe that I went up there before the ne ee SA a on =o 707 assassination, about Ruby. Hell, I don't know. I am so confused, I do not know whether I was up there before the assassination or after the assassination. de Mr, Fithian. Talking to the FBI? ia Mr..McKeown. Yes. Do you have it wrote down there? Mr. Purdy. The only account we have is January 28, 1964. Mr, Fithian. This would have been 1964, the next calendar year after President Kennedy has been assassinated. eee Mr. e—e——eeeeee—_—e—eeee See McKeown. I sure wish -- you do not know how bad I wish I could tell you whether I told him that or not. I réally wish I could tell you that. I might have told him that. Mr. Fithian. Mr. McKeown, I look upon you as a good citizen and somebody who is willing to try to aches this Con- otal mittee get all the facts laid out on the table, and I wish Eee Ses eee you would just think very, very carefuly, about what you told the Committee. I do not know you. I have never met you before and I might neyer seen you again, but between the two or us, we are going to have to write the final chapter of the history eee eee of this event, as to the circumstances surrounding the death of John Kennedy, I would not want to go to my grave misleading the American public, I do not think you do either. Sa SS SoS Sale Sans ee SS 708 1 Mr. McKeown. I do not, either. Mr. Fithian. I ask you, just | as an American to give some thought to your answer and not to mislead this | Committee, because the circumstances are getting so over- | whelming, as I think about this matter, the rules of this | | ~ Committee is going to allow you five minutes at the end of all of the questioning to try to reflect on this and try to vas ‘ set the record straight on anything that you think you have given us the wrong impression on. : Mr, Chairman, I have been pressing the witness, in your. absence, ee ee OOo eee See very hard because it just seems so implausible to | me that a person, who, at his age and mind was so struck by the assassination of the President that he would forget ina conversation with the FBI, forget the fact that the SPesit | dent's assassin had been in his home, had been in his home | ~ trying to buy a high-powered rifle, and knowing the President, oe =o== ee was killed by a high-powered rifle. | And I am | asking basically whether or not it is a trick { of the mind to sort of think that, and embellish the story. | If is like going on a fishing trip. You think back on ~ it, | in ten years, you do not remember all the times you did not | . catch anything, but the fish grows. i I am wondering if there is not that human psychological element at work here, because I cannot find any other explana-~ tion for it, and I do not know whether you eee eee a —SeeS—_—— 2~ —— aoss8 can or not, : oes en SS SS Soaaennaes i 799 | Mr. McKeown. I wish I could. Mr. Fithian. Why do you not, just in your own mind, | try to tell us what you really think happened. | Mr. McKeown, What I think happened? | an Mr. Fithian. Yes, Mr. McKeown. About the way that the President was ™t killed? In my opinion? 2 Mr. Fithian. “How many time did Jack Ruby visit you? Mr. McKeown. Three or four times. || Mr. Fithian. And tell us whether you are absolutely Sure whether the person who came to your door was Lee Harvey| | | Oswald. Mr. McKeown. At that time, I was in pretty good health | and I would swear on a Bible -- and I am a believer in the | Bible, it was and Lee I believe Harvey ‘Oswald who in the Lord came and to zesus my door. Christ -- that | | Mr. Fithian. Tell us why you did not tell the investi- gators that at the time? Give us something that is more | | reasonable than we have. | | | Mr. McKeown, Mr. Fithian, I do not know why. If you want to know the honest-to-God truth, like I told you, I do not think you ask me. Maybe he did. I do not know. I do not know. | =. anemnned tt a ee I swear if I knew I would tell you, I really would = — tell you, because you do not know -- I am an Irishman and Kennedy is an Irishman and if there was anything in the world ——— —Se —. es 760 I could do to help you solve this, I wowld do it. Just like I talked to you about getting this phonecall about me not mentioning that this Latin was not with Oswald, but I told you he was with him, you pn and I could have not ee told you that. But I am not afraid. Mr. Fithian. I understand that, but as just one Irish- man to another, there is a great deal of sympathy and empathy and feeling for a great Irish President. I do not want you to leave here today doing anything to get the story so out of focus that nobody is ever going to know. This is only one small piece of it, but you are on the verge of get- ting the story out of focus so nobody is ever going to know. I do not think that you want that on ydur conscience. Mr. McKeown. I sure do not. Mr. Fithian, Let ee me ask you if this FBI report is not accurate, or is accurate, Mr. McKeown. Do you have the FBI report? Mr, Fithian, I have. it right in my hand. Mr. McKeown. What does it say? Read it to me. Mr. Fithian, It says: "He [McKeown] remarked he is not certain that the above-described telephone call from Dallas or the man who personally appeared at the J&M drive- in was identical with the Jack Ruby who killed Lee Harvey Oswald." Then, "to his knowledge, he hag neyer seen or met Lee Sem NONI E SONNE SE a ee as ne a aa ; 761 Harvey Oswald." That report was written at that time, that day, when you finished that canversation. You must have told them 40 then that, to your knowledge, you had never met or had never seen, in ————————eeEE————— Lee Harvey Oswald. Is that not reasonable for this Committee to expect, that your memory would have been better 15 years ago than it is now, and that 15 years ago when oo you were indeed asked by the FBI whether you had any kKnowl- oO edge of Lee Harvey Oswald, you said, to your knowledge, ,you had never seen or met Lee Harvey Oswald. Is that not the truth, rather than what we are hearing today? Mr. McKeown. If that is the truth, that is a lie, because I did see Lee Harvey Oswald. If that is the truth, what he says in his report, that I said that I did not know eee 4Se SS Lee Harvey Oswald, I want to be truthful and I want to tell you that the bastard who came to my door was Lee Harvey Oswald. It was | him, It was him. It was him. | | I am positive, | Mr. Fithian, Areyou sure, projecting back mentally, | | the mind's eye, the mind's image, that is where we start on | this. I am concerned that is what has really happened. I ee Pe SS SS a —=S_—E_——— am not accusing you of lying. I am just accusing you of | thinking wrong, of trying to embellisthe h story now, to make ‘ it better than it really was, make your own rule more i i important, more central, than it really was. Because the | ! ' best evidence that we have is, at that time, you did not think that you had ever met Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr. McKeown, Was it in 1964? te Mr. Fithian. 1964, in Mr. McKeown. The President was killed in 1962, was he not? Mr. Fithian, "63. Mr. McKeown, Ae Mr, Fithian. This was just a few months, two, three months, two months, about 60 to 90 days after the President ee was killed, Would not your memory have been better than it is now of the events? Mr. McKeown, It probably would, Mr, Fithian. Which do you really think is the accurat story? Mr, McKeown. You want my own opinion of it? Mr. Fithian. I want your own, Mr, McKeown. I do not believe he asked me if I knew Lee Harvey Oswald. I actually do not believe he asked me, Whether he said he did and what is there on that paper is well enough, EF cannot remember him asking me. Mr. Pithian,. In two out of three opportunities you have had to talk about this you came down on the same side, Once, when you were talking with the FBI when you said to 763 your knowledge you never saw, nor met, Lee Harvey Oswald. The second time you came down with this was when Dan Rather asked you the question and I read you the quotation from the script that Dan Rather has of your testimony to him. Mr. McKeown. That I told the FBI that I knew Lee Harvey Oswald. Mr, Fithian. Here, I will read it to you again. jase aaen The first time that you commented on this was at the FBI hearing where you said, to your knowledge, you had never seen ar met Lee Harvey Oswald, The second time that you talked about this story was when Dan Rather asked you the question, Dan Rather said: NN ee a a NT A "Did you talk to the FBI about Oswald's coming to see you?" And you said, "I think they did ask me if I knew Oswald. I think I told them I did not know him, never heard of them, Or something like that." Those two stories match, but what you are telling me today does not square with that. Has anyone suggested to you a line of discussion that you ought to take with this Committee? Mr : McKeown : No, Mr, Fithian, No one has talked to you about your testimony? Mr. McKeown, The only one I talked to was Mr. Fonzi, Mr. Fithian, You have not talked with your attorney? las, acini =: 764 Mr, Appel. ,We have not had time. Mr. Fithian, You and Mr, Lane have had conversations about this? fe Mr. McKeown. More or less. Mr. Fithian. You have talked to Mr. Lane? in Mr. McKeown. The only thing we talked about was when “I he came to my house, Mr. Fithian, He came to your house for what purpose? Mr. McKeown. To see if I could get him some bazookas and machine guns. Mr. Fithian. I am sorry, I did not hear that. Mr.*McKeown, He wanted me -- Mr. Dodd. You are talking about Mr. Lane? Mr, Fithian. Mr. Mark Lane, your attorney. Mr. McKeown. What do you want to know about him? Mr, Fithian. I am just asking, I asked you whether you had two testimonies lined up, that is, you have the FBI material and you have the Dan Rather material, and I now was asking you whether you had talked to hen ae else about your possible testimony before this Committee and your ~ present attorney says that he has not talked to you about it, and I am sure that he just met you today. And you said you talked to someone else, Mr. Fonzi. And you did talk to Mark Lane about your testimony;. is that ,. correct? 765 Mr. McKeown. Is Mr. Fonzi here now? Maybe he can ih) ~ recall if I told him that I talkéd -~ I am so confused. Mr. Fithian. Let me recognize counsel and let them 4a pursue this series. Perhaps I have jumped ahead of where in we wanted to be in the questioning. Mr. Chairman, I just could not believe that an American of Irish descent -- the Chairman is Irish-- and that an American of Irish descent who had respect and admiration for John Kennedy, as our witness has today, could be interroga- ted by the PBI and happen to overlook the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald had been at his home trying to buy a high- powered rifle and, 50 days after the President is killed, he is being asked this by h FBI and finding it incredible -- Mr. Doda. I can only say that, Mr. Fithian, my good _ friend, I am sure that the witness's desire £0 be fully can= did and honest about his testimony, the fact that he is an SSS 00 —e——c—sSe0_—600 ae eee eS eee ee ee oO ee eo Irishman and I am an Irishman, lends no credence whatsoever to our witness's veracity. We will leave that for another day. Mr. Fithian, I guess I want to pick up the line of questioning to counsel as to how did Dan Rather pick you out of 214 million people and,start this whole business talking to you anyway, Mr. Dodd. If the gentleman would yield? founsel, why do you not proceed with that line of Soo SS eon eea SS eee ee-—— 766 | ‘ques tioning? | | “= Mr. Pithian. I will let counsel take the questioning from here, but I will get back into this hefore the night Le OW, Mr, Chairman. Mr. Dodd. I have a feeling that you will. Counsel? Mr. Purdy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Mr. McKeown, you were about to begin responding to a question as to how you first made contact with Mr. Rather for the CBS Special? Mr, McKeown, I was sitting at hame and a lady called me by the name of Harriet Rubin and she was in Dallas, Texas and I was in Miami and she asked me if this was the McKeown that used to live in Houston andI said yes, She said that she was with "60 Minutes," she was representing Mike Wallace, and I said, what is this? A bunc af baloney? I thought it was just a hoax, She said no» I would like ta come down there to Miami and she was a researcher for CBS, That was what she was, She worked in the research department. So she came, And she calledme up. She checked into the "Four Ambassadors," So I drove over there and we went up to her room and she had a taperecording and I just told her about what happened, | | Mr, Purdy, Mr. McKeown, how was it that she found out 767 about you? Ww Mr. McKeown. I do not know. I asked her. I said how did you find out about it? She said, your name is already de in the Warren Commission. She said you might as well tell ! me about it. They are going to call you up before the Committee and you will have to tell them. Mr. Purdy. What Committee was that? Mr. McKeown. I guess this one. Mr. Purdy. In 1975, this Committee was not in existence Mr. McKeown. I do not know, She says, you are going os —S—s—sSsSaoaSs090. H_M?$e =. oro AE Se to have to go before some Committee, eice Purdy. Was anybody with you at the time? Mr. McKeown, * No, I was by myself, Mr. Purdy, Just you and Harriet Rubin? | Mr. McKeown. Right, Mr. Purdy, No one else present? Mr. “McKeown. Nobody, Mr. Purdy, Was anybody else present during any meeting you had with Miss Rubin? | Mr, McKeown, Prio. When her and I went up to Carbos | Prio's house and it was nothing about-- well, yes, it was | about the assassination. It was about this Spanish guy coming with Oswald, you know what I mean? Mr, Purdy, About the Spanish guy coming with Oswald? ' Mr, McKeown. Coming with him, was with him, and I called | een as =—T waite i eC Soa }u__OONRRONNS SSS SS a 768 Prio off into the next room and asked him, do you think that I should tell this woman anything about all of that? He said yes, The more trouble you can get Castro in, do it, That is what he said. es Mr. Purdy, How would that get Castro in trouble? Mr. McKeown. Well : I do notkknow. Mr. Purdy. Did Miss Rubin ask you about the Oswald meeting, or did you first suggest it to her? Mr. McKeown. No. She asked me on the phone, she says, i} i | ! I understand Jack Ruby came to see you and all this and I - all that, and I told her yes. And she says, did Oswald | | come to see you? I said yes, he came to my door. Mr. Purdy. Was that the first time that you had ever spoken who was not an acquaintance of yours? ’ ’ | | Mr. McKeown. That was the first time, That has not | been a real time ago. | Mr. Purdy. Why did you tell her? Mr, McKeown, I really did not have to tell her. rf Mr. Purdy, Why did you tell her? Mr. McKeown. I do not know, Mr, Purdy, Did she know, before she asked you, that you had met Oswald? Mr. McKeown, Did she ask me if I knew Oswald? Mr. Purdy. Did she know that you had met Oswald before 769 “she asked you about the meeting? Mr. McKeown, I do not know if she knew it or not. Mr. Purdy, Do you know if anybody told her before she talked to you that you had met Oswald? Mr, McKeown. She told me she went and talked to Oswald's mother, Mr. Purdy, What did Oswald's mother say about you? Mr. McKeown. She did not say; she did not tell me, She just told me.—-~ I said, what haye you heen doing over there in Dallas, and she said she went and talked to Lee Harvey Oswald's mother. Mr, Purdy, Did Miss Rubin talked to anyone who knew that you had met Oswald before you told her that you had met Oswald? Mr, McKeown, I do not know, Mr, Purdy. Do you think she did? Mr. McKeown. She acted like she did, because she asked me, | Mr. Purdy, Can you think who it might have been that she talked to? Mr. McKeown, No, Mr. Purdy, Who else had you talked to about this who might have communicated this information to her? Mr. McKeown, “After the assassination I talked to quite a few people that that dirty bastard is the one who had come 770 to my house. You know, I guarantee if he came to your house you'd go tell somebody, Mr. Purdy. You told a number of people including your probation officer that you had met Oswald and Ruby, correct? Mr. McKeown. If I did, I do not remember. Mr. Purdy. Earlier today, you stated -- Mr. McKeown, I might have, Mr, Purdy, You stated that you told a number of people, including your probation officer, Mr. McKeown, I probably did, Mr. Purdy, You told them that before the FBI inter- view on February 28, 1964, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. To be frank with you, I do not know, I do not know. Mr. Purdy, Earlier today you gaye us quite a Lise Os a number of people, some of whom you remember their names, some you do not, whom you believe you told you met Ruby and Oswald, After the assassination you told them and before you talked to the FBI, is that correct? Mr, McKeown. Repeat that. Mx. Purdy, You told us earlier today that you talked with quite a number of people after the assassination, You told them that you had met Oswald and Ruby and you told these people this prior to the time you had the interview with the FBI? | Mr. McKeown. Yes, probably. It was common knowledge. Mr. Purdy. What was common knowledge? Mr. McKeown. That Sam Neal was at my house when he came there, “Sam Neal knows a thousand people or more there, ~ and you know, he told quite a few, a a rn a | Mr. Purdy. If it was common Knowledge, why did you hesitate to tell the FBI? —— = | Mr. McKeown. I just do not know, | Mry- Purdy. Did it ever cross your mind? | Mr. McKeown. God Almighty, I certainly wanted to tell them, but I cannot remember. To be frank with you, I cannot ee eee eee Sooo eee remember, Mr, Purdy. As soonwas you recognized Mr, Oswald and —— Mr, Ruhy, did you consider going to the authorities to tell them that Mr. Oswald had approached you to buy a high- pan powered rifle? Mx. McKeown, Did Iego to them and tell them? Mr. Purdy. Did you consider going to the authorities . and tell them that shortly after the assassination, Mr. McKeown, Yes. Mr. Purdy. Why did you not go and talk to anybody until | | two months : | January 28, 1964, later, Mr, McKeown, “I think you have the dates mixed up there, | or — I am going to be frank with you, Like I tald you, I was 172 going to lunch with this lady when the President got killed and we came back to the office, Now, that Sie in November, jw right? de Mr. Purdy, Right. Mr. McKeown. As soon as we got back to the office -- I will not say it was the next day, but I will say it was within two to three days that the FBI was there, Mr, Purdy, They came to see you? Mx. McKeown, At the office, Mr. Purdy. How long did the interview take? Mr .McKeown, At the office where I was working, Mr. Purdy, How long did that interview take? Mr. McKeown. It was no interview. Mr. Purdy, What transpired at that meeting? Mr. "McKeown, He wanted to know if I was McKeown, and I said yes and he asked me to come up to his office and I said that I would be glad to. Mr, Purdy, The record indicates that the PBI interview was on January 28, 1964, Is it your contention today that the record is wrong and that you did not meet with Special Agent Ww F. Foltz, Jr., on January 28, 1964 when you discussed with him your meeting with Jack Ruby? | Mr, McKeown. Could you repeat the question? — Mr. Purdy, Is it your contention today that the FBI report dated January 28, 1964 is incorrect in that it says 773 you were interviewed on January 28th and not sooner? wo Do you have a specific present recollection that you were interviewed prior to that time? Mr. McKeown. It seems as though I was, yes, but Maybe I was not. Hell, I do not know. The only thing I know, I went up to the FBI offices, There was not a soul in there but him and I. Mr. Purdy, Your present recollection is that you did not consider going to the authorities after the assassina- tion.to tell them that you had met Ruby and Oswald until you talked to the FBI in their office, is that correct? Mx. McKeown, Are you trying to say that I should haye gone up there? . . Mr. Purdy. Iwas asking, first of.1al], if you consider -going.to law enforcement authorities to tell them that you Knew Ruhy and Oswald prior to the time that you had the two- hour meeting with the FBI, Mr. McKeown. I. considered it, Mr. Purdy, Why did you not go to the authorities? Mx. McKeown. Well, I do not!’ know, To be frank with you, Ido not know, Maybe I was scared or something, Maybe I was scared I would get involved, or something. I do not know, | —$—-—__ = es rie eee ee eae Nis oa gam cae tat ee SS ae Ee Mr, euray Mr, McKeown, when Miss Rubin called you -- Mr, McKeown. “MaybeI should have went, 774 Mr. Purdy, When Miss Rubin called you from CBS, did she tell you that there would be any financial remuneration to you for telling your story? , | Mr.. McKeown, No, She told me she would pay my mar back to Texas, Mr. Purdy, Was there any discussion of payment beyond expenses? Mr. McKeown, No, They were very nice, They rented me | a room You see, at the Holiday I have a sister Inn and and they brother rented me a Rent-a-car. in Houston, They told || me I could stay an extra week and keep the rent car and | charge it to them. Mr. Purdy, Did anyone help you negotiate or work with ! CBS? Did you have an agent of any kind? | Mr, McKeown, No, | | Mr, Purdy, You testified earlier that you had been | approached hy British Broadcasting Company for a teleyision ; show, Did they offer you any money? | Mr, McKeown. ‘Well, yes. | Mr. Purdy, : How much money did they offer you? : || i Mr, McKeown, $100. Mr, Purdy, Is that how much they paid you? t e Mr, McKeown, Yes, i [ Mr, Purdy, Did the British Broadcasting Company opera you, or did you, or someone, approach them? 775 | || Mr, McKeown. They approached me. Mr. Purdy. Do you knowif anyone suggested to them that you would be a good person for their show? | de Mr. McKeown. Not that I know of. He told me that in they could not pay any money on account they did not put any commercials on over there and I said well, if it will | help try to solve the President's assassination, and find | | out who in the hell did kill him, I would be willing to do | that. Mr. Purdy, Did anyone give you any advice, prior to | appearing either on CBS or BBC programs, about what you were going to say? | | Mr. McKeown. Not a soul, As a matter of fact, my || ex-wife, the mother of my children, she was all againstiit. | on account I have a son-in-law in Miami that is pretty high | up in society and she did not want to let him know that I | was mixed up in this. :| | Mr. Purdy. Has anyone ever approached you with any | | serious proposal providing you with money in exchange for | information you wanted to give about the assassination? | Mr. McKeown. No. I wish they had. | Mr. Purdy. Have you ever considered writing a book about these experiences? i ! Mr, McKeown, I have considered writing a hook, yes, ' i i about my experiences with Castro. As a matter of fact, there ‘ | 776 have been a number of people who haye come to me these i past years and I always refused it, because I did not want to | GOls i. | Mr. Purdy. Do you presently have a book contract | outstanding Mr. for you McKeown. to write No, not about a book the about the assassination, assassination? | ~ Mr. Purdy, Do you haye a present understanding or li i, working relationship with any agent or any book publisher that you will write a book about any subject which will | include references to the assassination? Mr, McKeown, No. I haye talked to a few people with a = ont = se SeSs neon | this. hook, this hook business, and they want me to put it | in a book that Qswald came to see me and Ruhy came to see | me, ) ~4- Mr. Purdy, Who are you working on this book with? ° SS aeaaaeOOO | Mr, Appel, I would object to these questions, | Mr, Purdy, Mr. Chairman, I would dike to respond to the objectian, It is counsel's contention that these questions go directly to the witness's credihility as to possible | incentiyes for embellishments on his previous story, but in : | the form of some pressure from some other source, or for the | Potential from some monetary gain that could result from a dramatic story concerning the assassination, : Mr, Dodd, Does counsel want to be heard in support of ! his: objection? tn ! ap a a mG Mr. Appel. I feel that you could call in somebody to testify about pressure if you feel that there is any undue pressure here, I do not really see that it is relevant. Mr. Dodd. The Chair is going to overrule the objection on the grounds that it does tend to support or test the ~ credibility of the witness and therefore, I will ask the —eee witnessto respond to questions of counsel, Counsel may proceed, — Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, are you presently working with anyone on a book with whom you have a contract outstanding ora in the works for you to produce a book which includes information about your knowledge about the assassination? Mr... MeKecim, Well, the book that I have a contract for -=< as 4 matter of fact, I do not have a contract. I do not some brn — A Nees —s Soh have a a eaen with any publisher whatsover, none. But =Ee I have a littlé contract with him for writing a book for me, Mr. Purdy, Who is that? Mr. McKeown, Mark Lane, Mr. Purdy, Have any general figuresor monetary remun< Se = eration been discussed as to how much money you can expect s SSS sa from such a book? Mr, McKeown, Yes, but nothing to get excited about, As a matter of fact, we have not been able ta sell it, so eismi 00 =: edb» = there must not Be much ta it, — 778 Mr. Purdy. What is the general monetary figure, or | figures, you have Been told you might be able to recover for this book? SD Mr, McKeown. Maybe $10,000, | Mr. Purdy. Mr. McKeown, did you tell the Select ow neh hel Committee on Assassinations staff members on February 14th of this year that the figure $50,000 had heen discussed eee =—=- ee for that book? Mr. McKeown. re had, yes, Now it is down to $10,000, As a matter of fact, this man that got shot over here in : Georgia-- I do not know him, do not misunderstand; I do not know him -- he is the one who said he would give me the $10,000, ———————— But that is out now, because he got shot, and he was going to open up a publishing company and now he is not. Mr, Purdy, Have you been recently told a figure as es hows much money you might be able ta get from this book? ——— ee eS Mr, McKeown, Recently, yes, Mr. Purdy. What figure were you told recently? Mr. McKeown, Maybe $59,000, Mr, Purdy, How recently was that. Mr, McKeown. I have been told that so many times, I do eee not. believe it, Mr, Appel, May I have a momentto speak with the witness, please? (Pause) 779 | Mr.. Purdy, Did Mr. Lane approach yau, or did you approach Mr, Lane, about writing this book? : ce | Mr. McKeown. He approached me. !| # fe | ! Mr, Purdy. Mr, Chairman, I have no further questions, | zi : Mr, Dodd, Let us suspend for a moment here. | | (A brief recess was taken.) Mr, Dodd. I know Mr. Fithian is anxious to pursue his aor line of questioning. I wonder if you might comment, In your testimony earlier to us today, you made refer--. ence to the fact that at the time of Mr. Oswald's yisit to your home, there was an associate of yours, or a friend of yours. present, a Mr. Neal, Sam Neal. Mr, McKeown, Right. Mr. Dodd. ‘I wonder if you might he able to tell us, at that time, in August or September, 1963, the time of the .. eee — alleged visit where Mr. Neal was living, what his address was at that time? Mr.. McKeown. At my house, Mr, Dodd, He was living at your home? Mr, McKeown. Yes, He was getting a divorce from his wife and he was pretty despondent and eyerything, so I had four bedrooms there, I told him to come on over and moye in here, I knew him a long time, a5= Mr, Dodd, ‘Where did he work at the time? Mr, McKeown, He works for. NASA, a master electrician, Mr. Dodd. NASA? Mr. McKeown. ‘When they were building NASA down there. Mr. Dodd, Did you have mutual friends, associates, or people he would have known that you did not know that came by there to visit from time to time while he was living there? Mr. McKeown, He had a lot of friends, yes. He had a lot of friends, Mr. Dodd, Can you recall? Mr. McKeown. What? Mr. Dodd, Can you recall for us, to the best of your knowledge, the names of any of these people who were friends of-his at that time? Mr ./tMcKeown. He knew J, D, Hern, Mr, Dodd, Who? Mr, McKeown, J, D, Hern, He lived about a block when he separated, and he knew Raymand Neal, but no kin to hin, Their name just happened to be the same, and he knew a lot of people. Mr. Dodd, ‘Where did Ray Neal work? Mr. McKeown, Raymond Neal, he worked for Sinclair Gil, “He ts retired, They were just friends. We would go fishing together and things like that. Mr, Dodd. ‘Anyhody else you can think of? Mr. McKeown, There was a whole lot of them, 781 Mr. Dodd. Is Mr. Neal still alive? Mr. McKeown, I think so, £ have not seen him. een’ As a matter of fact, it was at his house where Dan Rather inter- viewed me, | Mr. Dodd. What is the address of that place, do you recall? Mr, McKeown. I know it is General Delivery, St, Leon _———==—= Texas, Raymond Neal told me about six, seyen months ago, and I got word two weeks agq that Raymond Neal's wife died, and Raymond Neal told me about six months ago that Sam was a terrible case, he had cancer, Wehther he is living now, I do not know, ? Mr, Dodd. You have not had any contact with Mr, Neal since the time you haye been interyiewed by Mr. Rather? —e—eee eee Eee — SSS ee. Mr, McKeown, Yes, I haye had contact with him, Mr. Dadd, When was the last time? Mr. McKeown, When my brother died, I went back home to his funeral and I droye down and talked ta Sam. | Mr, Dodd. How long ago was that? - | Mr .McKeawn, Seven or eight months ago, Mr. Dodd. “Seyen or eight months. The last time you saw him was seyen months? Mr, McKeown, Yes. He was sick then, Mr, Dodd, Since that time, you have had no contact with eee ee ET SSS SS ae SS ooAD, a eSoe oS 782 him? Mr, McKeown’; hohen wn eweet be Mr. Dodd, Have you made any effort to keep in touch with him? Mr. McKeown. No, . Mr. Dodd. ‘He has not written you? Mr, McKeown, NG? He neyer writes. He is the gentle- man who called me on the phone and said, that's the guy who was at your house, Sam Neal, Mr. Dodd, ‘The fellow who did what? Mr. McKeown, He was the gentleman who called me on the phone the morning that Ruby killed Oswald because he was watching television down at some friends of his house and he calledme up and told me, are you watching teleyisio I said yes, . | He said, well, that's the little bastard who was at your house, Mr. Dodd, Which one of those people was he referring ta? Mr. McKeown, He was referring to Oswald, because he hag never™seen Ruby, itESS ee—_ eee Ae beSe e teee SS eee eS aaa SS Mr.Dodd, The assassination of Oswald by Ruby happened almost 48 hours after the assassination of President Kenned I presume you had been watching tellevisfon or had seen newspapers and so forth, 783 Mr. McKeown. I saw something in a newspaper that they were going to broadcast teat Mr. Dodd. Let me ask you this, Did you turn on the television on Friday, November 22. 1963 when you received word that the President was assassinated? Mr. McKeown. No, I had a radio. We were in the office where I worked in the pump company, Mr. Dodd, Did you turn the television on Friday:night? Did you watch any television at all that you recall over that week-end? Mr. McKeown. I watched everything on it, according to the assassination. Mr. Dodd. At that time, did you see the pictures of the then-alleged assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr, McKeown, No. Mr. Dodd. ‘You never saw any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald on television? Mr. McKeown. Not as I recall, I did nat, The only time I seen him is when he shat him, you know? That was the only time that I knew that was hin, i watched, you know )-* you know, Mx. Dodd. ‘Do you see what I am driving at with you? I am trying ta find out whether you recognized this fellow except for the fact that Mr. Neal told you it was the same in a) guy, There was 48 hours between the time the assassination 784 occurred and the time that Ruby assassinated Oswald, This fellow's picture was on every TV S-Paek in America. to Mr. McKeown. seb Bad was, I did not recognize him, $+ Mr. Dodd. You did not recognize him, Mr. McKeown. I did not pay much attention. Mr. Dodd. You did not pay much attention to what was going on? Mr. McKeown, No, I was more interested in whether he was going to die or not, the President, He Iingered about four ar five hours, Mr. Dodd. Not at all. About one hour. About 2:00 o'clock in the afternoon. Mr. McKeown. 2 was at the radio in the office and it was 12:00 o'clock when we went to get lunch and the President did not die until about 2:30 or 3:00, Mr. Dodd, That is right. I am asking you whether or not, between Friday evening and Sunday morning, November, 1963, whether or notyyou Peete, pictures that were appearing on TV screens all across this country of Lee Haryey Oswald, Did you vecconiall the man who had been in your living room a couple of months before? _ Mr. McKeown, I did not pay any attention, Mr. Doda. “You. did not pay any attention? Mr.:McKeown. No. I did not have any idea, As a matte? 785 | of fact, I had put that man out of my mind. I thought he was just a rat. I did not have no idea, do you know what | I mean? | It was just like I came to your door to sell you a book, | and you said no, you wouldn't think no more about me, would you? — Mr. Dodd. You did not recognize his name, Lee Haryey | reas ae—ee CORN areasOswald? weenie Pele about this. Mr. McKeown. I am trying to tell you everything I know.) | Mr. Fithian. I wish I could accept that. I am going to give you an opportunity, but I have got to tell you that | | I am disappointed. | I am going to go back over the testimony that you have | given here, some of the statements that you have made, and | I want you to be as candid as you can, remembering that you | | are under oath, remembering that all we asked you to do | when you were sworn in today was to tell the truth, the | | | whole truth, and nothing about the truth. I emphasize that | | last, nothing But the truth, | i Mr, McKeown. That is what I am doing, | Mr, Fithian, I advise you as a friend, that is how -- you get in trouble before this Committee, | Mr. McKeown, . I do.not want to get in any trouble. I | get into enough trouble, Mx. Fithian, Let us go through this and try to he as 788 straightforward as you can, Some of them are very vague and very much in contradiction to each other and somehow not coming out right. I would like to put agide otNer testimony you have given us this morning and just tell me, truthfully and honestly and candidly, and in short terms, the answers to some questions that I have. Number one, letus talk about the Jack Ruby or Rubin- stein visit to you, You testified this morning that Mr. Ruby came to you and asked for a letter to Castro, Mr, McKeown, I did not say that,. I said he came to me and wanted to know if I could help him get rid of some :| jeeps and some slot machines, Mr, Fithian, Yes, and he specifically asked you for a : letter of introduction, Mr, McKeown, Right. Mr, Fithian, To the Cubans, including Castro, Mr. McKeown, Yes, Mr, Fithian, That is what I am talking about. 20 ae ai Mr. McKeown. Yes. a1 Peete . : : | Mr. Fithian, Just setting all aside, the details of 34 | oy whether he was selling jeepsor bubble gum, I am saying he 23 came ta you for the purpose of a letter of introduction to the Cuban authorities, right? Mr, McKeown. That is exactly right, 789 Mr, Fithian. And you, at first, were not going to write that, and you thought-- I am not faulting you -- that| you might write it because he was going to pay you money LOr Leye rages Mr. McKeown. Right ; Mr, Fithian... In. your testimony, you said that after awhile you decided that you would write it and that you ae did write it, is that correct? Mr. McKeown. Right. Mr, Fithian, Then you said that you did not give it to him, Mr. McKeown. I did not. Mr. Fithian, Why did you not give it to him? Mr. McKeown. Because he never did come back to get — it. He never did come up with the money, Dated O00 de . he would give me $10,000 and if he did not get to see Castro I would give him his $10,000 hack, Mr. Fithian. You said that you would write a letter —eee eS aaera ee and if he would give you $10,000, you would give it Back to himif that letter would not get him to see Castro, ———— ee ee ee SS Mr. McKeown. That is right, exactly right. Mx, Fithian, How many times did he return? How many times did Mr, Ruby return? Mr. McKeown, He came about three or four times, Mr, Fithian, Each time asking for the letter? ase sn : 790 Mr, McKeown, No. Well, yes, more or less. Mr. Fithian, That was the purpose, was it not? He wanted a letter of introduction? Mr. McKeown. When I look back -- Mr. Fithian, And he wanted to be able to, once he got the letter of introduction, to say well, McKeown, he used to phay baseball or whatever, That is what you said this morning, Mr. McKeown, Yes, He asked me all about-where I had Been with Castro and how we had talked and what we had dis- cussed and things of that nature, you know, and he kept after me about how many arms were there, and were there really $2 million wotth. I told him I guessed there was, I really do not Know. He said, well, no, I am going to get this money and : | bring it hack up here, and I said, have you.got the money? That's what I asked him, He said no, I do not Rave it yet. | Don't. worry about the money, that's: easy, That's easy, Do | not worry about that at all, : : Then he came back and we would talk some more about different things, about what warehouses I put the guns in and who.:all helped me haul them out to his house, who liyed at the house, what the people'ts names was who lived at the house, thingsof that nature, — Then he says, did you write the letter? I said, I haye§ — wrens wl not written it yet, because you have not given me any money and then he came back and I told him I had the letter written. te He says, you know, it is kind of risky carrying that mu money around. I did not believe the money -- are you listen ee SSE ee Se ing to me? Mr. Fithian. Yes, I am. Mr. McKeown, I said well, I am not going to give you the letter until you give me the money. That was the last time I seen him. He never did come back. Mr. Fithian. Did he, or did he not, ask you for the letter when he came back? — oo Mr. McKeown. Yes, he asked me for it. Mr. Fithian. He:dids “You are sure of that? Mr. McKeown. _I am almost positive that he asked me = for the letter, but I did not give it to him. Mr. Fithian, Let me quote to you what you told Mr. Rather on that point. "McKeown was interviewed by the FBI" -- this is Rather speaking -- "but told them nothing about Oswald.” Then this is the part I want you to hear. "Curiously he" -- McKeown -- "did say that Jack Ruby had come to see him in 1959 offering him $25,000.for a letter of introduction to Fidel Castro. Ruby never came back to pick up the letter, McKeown said." 792 Mr. McKeown, That is what I told you. The last time he left, he never came back and I have never seen him no more until I seen him on television. Never have I laid de eyes on him, ta Mr, Fithian. When you told that to Rather, you were talking about his fourth visit? Mr. McKeown. After his third or fourth, Mr, Fithian. After his last visit? Mr. McKeown. His last visit, Mr, Fithian. Second, let me go back to that part of the story -- I think we are going to be interrupted by a vote on the Floor. That is what all these bells are about, You say, you told the Committee that Oswald came to you and tried to buy rifles and that he offered you a certair sum of money for a certain kind of rifle. Would you repeat chat for me, please? Mr. McKeown. When he first came in, he wanted to know if I could get him some bazookas and some Thompson machines, He said, he had a good deal working, They were going to | try to overthrow Salvador, That is where he said. And I said, I guess you know that I am on probation and I said that I am not going to do anything, irregardless about any kind of guns or any other thing, nothing. Mr. Fithian, Then he left and then he returned? Mx. McKeown, He kept talking, He said, it will be a 793 big benefit to you. We know you can get these guns. We know you have got tres we know you can get them. I don't see why you do not help us out. i And I said well, I just want to let you know that I am not going to help you out, not only eee you, but nobody else, I am not going to get involved, I said, I got involved-in this damn thing innocently. Zz, divs | All I was in the damned thing for was to try to get my buisness back over there in Cuba, and then I get into all of thin. sit And so, I was trying to get him out of my house. finally Snead Le ITE A re i got him out of the house and this guy went to him -= this guy in the car -- and he comes back and this guy is Standing by the car-and I go out on the porch, and he says well, look. This won't be very much. You can do this today,| | maybe tomorrow, whatever, I want you to get me four high- || " powered rifles, automatics, with telescope sight. He said || he would prever .300 Savage automatics. That is what he | | said. | Mr. Fithian. Why do you remember this so clearly? Mr. McKeown. Because I have a .300 Savage automatic. | Mr, Fithian. You should know that a .300 Savage | automatic is a very easily acquired weapon. Mr. McKeown. It certainly is. ed ere nl ee en er oe aLr 4u4y-105 0 - 79 - 51 794 Mr. Fithian. You don't have to have any special help, | you do not have to have a man with your connections to get | one. Mr, McKeown. That is exactly what I told him. I said, you can get those guns right down here at the Sears Roebuck or most any hardware store you can get them. Mr, Fithian, Did you not think -- Mr...McKeown. He says we want you to get them for us, Mr, Fithian. Did you not think it was a little bit odd that he was going to offer you three or four times the price? Mr. McKeown. I thought it was ridiculous. I told him that it was ridiculous, I said, you can get the guns -- Me Fithian, Mr, McKeown, were you on pro when you were talking to the FBI? Mr. McKeown, I think so. i amm a Mr. Fithian. In February of '64? Mr.McKeown., I think so. I do not know. You can check Back je do not know. I know that I was scared, Mr, Fithian. To set the record correct, your parole ended at the end of 1963, I do not doubt that you were frightened in talking to the FBI. Mr. McKeown. You'd better believe it. Mr.Fithian. Follow me very closely on this. If I were eee meme we ae emer een mee. ane mee mes ae es aes ments ee ene +ee es es ne ew pees ee 795 frightened and I were going to be interrogated by the |= Pig and the assassin of the President of the United States had been at my door and I had turned down his request to get. a high-powered rifle, do you not think that it would have been reasonable to expect that I would tell the FBI about my good deed? Mr. McKeown. I sure as hell would. Mr. Fithian. In spite of the fact that you loved the President, in spite of the fact that you knew all about this, in spite of the fact that you knew Jack Ruby -- Mr.iMcKeown. I did not know Jack Ruby. ee ee Mr. Fithian, That you had met him four times. eee ee eS ———e—eeooe————o Aeee eee «os Mr.°McKeown. You emphasized that I knew these people; before they ever come to me, I did not know them from Adam. I wish they had never come to me, Mr, Fithian. In spite of the fact that Jack Ruby had — ——S come to you and had talked to you four times, or three times ,, or whatever, | and you are now being asked by the FBI if you | know anything about it, in spite of your Cuban connections | | 2 Meenas ie 00 cet namiein octet ciidinn OF 1s 555 and all the rest of it, and despite the good deed that you | had done by turning down this assassin who had asked you to get him a rifle, you expect to sit there and tell me and { \ expect me to believe you that you sat there and talked to | | ! the FBI for two hours and you did not even mention this? ‘Let us get our story straight. If you are going to write es aSe SS ee a | 796 a book, would you not sell more copies if you tell it the way you are télling it now than if you told the truth? Is Pere not the real thing we have been fighting with all day today? Mr. McKeown. We have not been fighting. Mr. Fithian. Is that not the real effort that we have been making here? You have been trying to protect a fable | that you want to sell to the public and you are not inter- ested in getting the story straight. | Mr. McKeown. I most certainly am. | Mr. Appel. I object to this. He is badgering. | Mr.:McKeown, I hope to God that you find out who killed| the President and if I can help you any way in the world I | would do it, and I am going to do it. | Mr. Appel. I object, | Mr. Dodd, Let's suspend one second. Why do we not take a five-minute recess here and answer that rreli call. || | The second bell has run. Then we will come back, | NA.bwief recess was taken.) | t Mr. Dodd, At the time that we were called away to , answer a quorum call, Mr, Fithian was questioning the witness | and I would yield to Mr, Fithian to pursue his line of ; questioning, . | Mr, Fithian. Mr, Chairman, I am not sure that further : questioning would be all that productive, I think the record 797 has shown that we have three, if not four or five, inconsis- | tencies in the witness's testimony and the record will show | that the witness is in the process, if not fictionalizing | this, at least commercializing this, in a book arrangement and I think that that is really what we have learned here | today, and I have no further questions. | Mr. Dodd. Well, fine. | I want to, first of all, thank you, Mr. McKeown, for | being here today. It has been a long day for you and the | | Committee is appreciative of that. I would be negligent in my duty, however, as Chairman before this Committee before we terminate not to remind you of the tremendous significance | | and importance of these hearings, so vitally important that | | each and every witness who appears before us should he as | candid as honest as he or she can possibly be in trying to | | help us arrive at the truth. N | I would also be negligent if I did not remind you, as | a witness before this Committee, of a fact which IJ am sure | you and your counsel are both well aware of and that is | that the cloak of immunity does not extend to perjury and | ! I am sure that your attorney has apprised you of that fact. | I am sure you are aware of it. | | Having said that, first, I want, by the rules of our committee, I would like to give you give minutes in which time ! you can, if you so desire, sum up for us your own feelings | 798 or thoughts. At this particular time, it would be the last opportunity, more than likely, that you would have to straighte H out aany irregularities in your own testimony. This is the | opportunity for you to do so. | To repeat what Mr, Fithian said earlier, we do not | | { harbor any ill feelings towards any witness whatsoever and we want you to know that, and we are appreciative af your being here. I am going to give you that opportunity now to utilize those five minutes, if you so desire. | . | Mr. Appel. Mr. Chairman, I would like to speak briefly on behalf of Mr. McKeown, as allowed under Rule 3,6, just very briefly, then I would like to have him have a chance | to say something briefly. I would like to remind the Committee that Mr. McKeown has been:brought up here from Miami under strange circun- stances. He has been brought from Miam under very strange circumstances to a strange place. He is very nervous. I do not. know the man other than having met him this morning and being here today, but I know that he is rather : nervous being here, I think a lot of the problem of conflict, | in his testitony has been a resultof his misunderstanding | of questions, possibly, or just being nervous and confused and I think the Committee should keep that in mind. I think that the Committee should also keep in mind, though, that there might be conflictsin what he has said 799 because of his confusion, but there is possible fruit here for further investigation by the Committee and I do not ——— think that his testimony should be tatally discredited because 5 of his nervousness, et cetera, By all means, the Committee should follow up what he has said here today to find possible further information that will get to the bottom of this investigation, =.=- Thatis all I would like to say and I would like to hay Mr. McKeown << Webi || ene eRe Fe eee 2 SD Mr, Dodd. Let me just respond, The Committee is aware | of that. We do recognize that it is an unsettling experience to haye to testify hefofe any panel but, again, as I am Sure you have advised your client here, the law is not that forgiving when it comes tq neryousnessof the witness, We are seeking the truth, and we would hope that if the witness would recognize that he has nothing to fear at all-from this| Committee, and while we respect and understand what nervous- ness can do to a person, this is your opportunity now -- we hope, after some seven or eight hours that you would oR that there is nothing ta fear at all and use this opportunity, Mr. McKeown, to straighten out any concerns. eer oe Ss es 3Se SS S eee lle that you may have had or any conflicting testimony that you | May have given today, | Mr. McKeown, Well, Mr. Dodd, to my knowledge, you Know, as I can remember, that not ‘a soul has told me what to 800 say or hos to say it or anything. Now, I have told the i) truth as I know it, and I would not lie. I would not tell you a lie, because lying -- you know it, it gets you nowhere de The only thing that I am confused on is the FBI's report and what I told you people here, I guess, maybe Dan Rather, I do not know. You see, I just think that I told the truth. I know I told the truth, I know Lee Harvey Oswald came to my door. I know that as well as I know my name. I know it was him and any commercial outside of it, I erst Son, ge ce Se ee ee Se IE ee have not made one dime except my expenses to Texas and the $100 that British Broadcasting fellow by the name of Scott Malone, I guess he just gave it to me. | You see, after I lost my lung, I have not been able to work and I had a little insurance policy which don't pay me much and after I was disabled, where [I could not hardly get my breath, well, they put me on disability, you know, so I get the Social Security and that is what I am living on. And I am living with my daughter. If I have misled you in any way, I am sorry. I really am, hecause I want to tell you the truth. I know it was Oswald who came‘to see me and nobady has told me anything. I know it was him and I know it was Jack Ruhy who came to see me at my place of business. I Know it. As well as I am sitting here, I know it, 801 Mr. Dodd. Is that the conclusion of your statement? || | Mr.*McKeown. I just wanted to let you know that I am a doing the best I can. [I do not want to tell you a lie, «for | God's sake. I do not want to tell you any lie. What would | I gain by telling you a story? Nothing whatsoever. I ee] ~ not gain anything. I would just jeopardize myself. That is all that I would do. | Mr; Dodd. I thank you, I should also warn you, and advise you, rather, that. you will be under continuing subpoena subject to recall by the Committee, : Again, I want to thank you for coming up here and | spending a long day. We appreciate your: testimony, | The witness is excused, | * Mr. McKeown. .I do not understand -- continued subpoena?) N Mr. Dodd. If, at a future date, we want to recall you then the subpoena, after you appear here today, is still Operative, still good, to advise you of that fact. Mr. Appel. If I could ask one question, is it copy for me to get a copy of Exhibit 93, the FBI report, or to see it one more time? aitoal *>. aes Mr, Dodd, You can see it. Counsel, would you give counsel for the witness an i opportunity to look at that? SNM ANTS SS NESSES eS SE SO NT SD Se SN MRT aN ++ >>> ee-=s> eeSRST A A . “== on et (Whereupon, at 3:50 o'clock p.m. the Subcommittee | Saks Sea Sarees 2con proceeded to other business.) ALCERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 802 ix. Lewis J. McWillie Biographical Summary | (1153) McWillie was born May 4, 1908, in Kansas City, Mo. He resided in Dallas, Tex., from 1940 to 1958.(7748) In 1941 and 1942, he was employed at the Blue Bonnet Hotel.(7749) He then worked at the Top of the Hill Terrace, a gambling club in Arlington, Tex. (7750) MecWillie also ran a gambling house in Fort Worth called the Four Duces. (17751) (1154) In September 1958, McWillie moved to Cuba and managed the Tropicana Casino until May 1960.(7752) He worked as a pitboss at the Capri Hotel-Casino in Cuba from May 1960 to January 2, 1961, when he left Cuba.(7753) McWillie also worked in Aruba and Curacao. (1754) | (1155) In 1961, McWillie worked at the Cal-Neva Lodge in Nevada,(/755) and then at the Riverside Hotel, Thunderbird Club, Carousel Club (Las Vegas), and the Horseshoe Club.(1756) In 1978, McWillie was employed at the Holiday Inn Casino in Las Vegas, Nev. (1757) Treatment by the Warren. Commission (1156) The FBI interviewed McWillie about his relationship with Ruby on two occasions.(1758) McWillie was not interviewed by War- ren Commission staff, nor did he testify before the Commission. (1157) McWillie was mentioned in the Warren Report, which stated — that in September 1959, Ruby went to Cuba to visit “a close friend and | known gambler, Lewis J. McWillie.” (1759) (1158) According to the Report, McWillie left Cuba in January — 1961,* and in 1963, Ruby sent him a pistol in Las Vegas, “but McWillie did not accept the package.” (7760) The Report concluded by stating: The Commission has found no evidence that McWillie has engaged in any activities since leaving Cuba that are related to pro- or anti-Castro political movements or that he was involved in Ruby’s abortive jeep transaction. (7767) (1159) An appendix to the Warren Report included the following: Ruby apparently met McWillie in about 1950 when Mc- Willie operated a Dallas nightclub. McWillie, whom Ruby said he idolized, supervised gambling activities at Havana’s Tropicana Hotel in 1959 and later was employed in a man- agerial capacity in a Las Vegas gambling establishment. Ruby testified that he went to Havana for 8 days in August 1959 and left because he was not interested in its gambling activities. McWillie corroborated this story except he stated only that Ruby visited Havana “sometime in 1959.” (1762) (1160) Ruby testified before the Warren Commission that McWillie called him from Cuba and requested that Ruby contact Ray Brantley, a gun store proprietor in Dallas, and have “four little Cobra guns” sent to Cuba. (7763) Ruby stated: *McWillie’s activities regarding Ruby and Cuba are discussed: at length in another section of this volume. 803 I called Ray Brantley and I said, “Ray, McWillie called me.” I don’t remember if he sent me a letter or he called. He said he wants four little Cobras, or something like that. He said, “I know Mac. I have been doing business with him for a long time.” (7764) Ruby said this incident occurred during the early part of 1959.(1765) He had been asked, during his polygraph examination, if he told the truth about relaying the message to Ray Brantley regarding the guns, and Ruby replied, “Yes.” (7766) Ruby also testified that he “idolized” Mc Willie. (1767) (1161) The FBI interviewed Ray Brantley, the owner of Ray’s Hardware Store, where Ruby allegedly purchased the guns. (1768) Brantley stated that Ruby purchased one Colt Cobra on January 19, 1960.(1769) He also stated that, at Ruby’s request, on May 10, 1963, he sent a .88 Smith and Wesson Centennial revolver to L. J. McWillie in Las Vegas, Nev.(1770) Because McWillie did not pick up the re- volver at the post office, it was returned to the store.(1771) In her FBI Interview, Mrs. Brantley related the same information. (1772) (1162) McWillie told the FBI that in 1963 he did request that Ruby send him a gun, but after discussing it with his wife, he decided not to pick it up at the post office.(7773) McWillie was not asked by the FBI or the Warren Commission if he ever requested that Ruby send him guns in Cuba. Illegal Activities (1163) McWillie had been engaged in gambling activities for 46 years (1774) in Memphis, Tenn.; Jackson, Miss.; Dallas, Tex.; Havana, Cuba; Miami, Fla.; and Reno and Las Vegas, Nev.(1775) McWillie, however, did not have an extensive arrest record.(/776) While he was arrested in Dallas, Tex., in 1949 for investigation of gambling, he was released. (1777) (1164) McWillie admitted being acquainted with several organized crime and gambling figures, including R. D. Matthews,(1778) a Dallas and Las Vegas gambler; Joseph Civello,(7779) a Dallas orga- nized crime leader (now deceased) ; and Sam Yaras, (7780) the brother of organized crime figure, Dave Yaras. In Cuba, McWillie knew Santos Trafficante, Jake Lansky, and Dino Cellini, notorious orga- nized crime figures.(178/) He stated, however, that he knew them only “casually.” (1782) McWillie was employed in Cuba by Martin and Pedro Fox, who were allegedly involved in narcotics and gam- bling activities.(/783) McWillie stated that he made a number of trips to Miami to deposit money in banks for the Foxes. (1784) Relationship With Ruby (1165) McWillie told the FBI that he had known Ruby since 1947 or 1948 but, according to the FBI report, “knew him only as an oper- ator of a nightclub.” (7785) According to another FBI report, Mc- Willie also stated that his association with Ruby was: strictly social and personal without any interwined business interests, knowing that Ruby is not a gambler and does not understand the gambling business. (1786) 804 (1166) McWillie did not believe Ruby was involved in “gambling, prostitution, or illegal liquor sales.”(1787) He said Ruby had in- frequently visited the Top of the Hill Club where McWillie was employed. (1788) (1167) McWillie told the committee he had met Ruby in approxi- mately 1951.(7789) He explained that he would see Ruby occasion- ally at Webb’s Coffee Shop in the Southland Hotel, a late-night restaurant, and was told Ruby operated the Vegas Club.(1790) Mc- Pee made the following statement regarding his first meeting with Ruby: Finally, one night we got up to go out into the lobby of the hotel and he walked up to me and said, “Is your name McWillie?” I said, “Yes.” And he explained who he was and that he was Jewish and that he was having a problem with his nightclub. He talked like a real nice fellow. I said. “Why don’t you go see Mr. Schepps—a man named Julius Schepps?” He-owned a big liquor distributing place there and he used to play with us at the Top of Hill, a real nice man. (1797) (1168) McWillie stated that Ruby did see Schepps and “from then on, I could never get. rid of Jack Ruby.” (1792) McWillie also stated that Ruby sort of “idolized” him.(1793) He indicated that the prob- | lem with Ruby’s club was that “they were making him close early or ] something.” (1794) McWillie told the committee that Ruby visited | him in Cuba in 1959. (1795) | (1169) McWille informed the FBI that in 1961, after leaving Cuba, he drove from Miami, Fla., to Lake Tahoe, Nev. En route from Miami, | he stopped in Dallas and stayed overnight at Ruby’s apartment. (796) According to the FBI report, McWillie only saw Ruby for “2 or 3 | hours on this occasion.” (1797) McWillie told the committee that this | 1961 visit was the last time he saw Ruby.(1798) He stated, however, |) that he received several letters from Ruby concerning Ruby’s clubs. | tg500% According to McWillie, Ruby never visited him in Las Vegas. 1800 | (1170) McWillie told both the FBI and the committee about his | request in the early part of 1963 to have Ruby send a gun to Las Vegas. (2801) McWillie did not, however, recall asking Ruby to send four guns to Cuba in 1959. (1802) | (1171) MecWillie told the FBI that his last contact with Ruby was | approximately 2 months before the assassination, when Ruby tele- } phoned him about: some trouble he was having with a show, asa result of which he referred Ruby to Bill Miller, the owner of the Riverside Hotel in Reno, where McWillie had formerly been club man- _ ager. Their discussion on this occasion had to do only with the club’s act with which Ruby was concerned. (1803) | (1172) McWillie also told the committee that Ruby had contacted him in 1963 and informed him of some “trouble” he was having with | AGVA.(1804) McWillie said Ruby asked him if the knew the presi- | dent of the union. (1805) McWillie did not, but referred Ruby to Bill} 805 Miller. (1806) McWillie also called Miller and told him a friend of his was having trouble with AGVA.(7807) Ruby subsequently contacted Miller and later called McWillie a number of times to express his thanks for McWillie’s assistance.(1808) McWillie stated he had no familiarity with AGVA’s operations in Dallas. (1809) (1173) McWillie described Ruby as being a very frugal individual (1810) who was always courteous to the Dallas policemen and gave them whiskey as Christmas presents. (18/1) McWillie told the commit- tee he believed Ruby wanted to be a big man around Dallas and that he shot Oswald in order to become a martyr of some sort. (1872) (1174) Regarding Ruby’s associates, McWillie stated that he and Ruby had two mutual friends, Jake Rifkin, a gambler, and Meyer Panitz, a bookmaker.(1813) According to McWillie, Ruby knew the two Campisi brothers,(18/4) Jack Todd(1815) and Gordon McLen- don. (78/6) (1175) McWillie told the FBI that “he did not believe Ruby had any underworld connections” but might have been “acquainted with some figures in gambling and other illegal activities.” (1817 ) (1176) The transcript of the deposition taken by the House Select Committee on Assassinations can be found in JFK volume V, hear- ings before the House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 7ff. x. Lawrence V. Meyers Biographical Summary (1177) Lawrence V. Meyers was born December 16, 1910, in New York, (7818) spent a number of years working in various California cities after leaving New York as a teenager,(/879) and settled in the Chicago area, staying there for 8 years. There is an indication that he once went by the name of Hyman Victor Meyers. (2820) In 1978, he was living in Dallas, having moved there in March 1964 for business purposes.(1821) He married in 1936 and had three chil- dren. (7822) (1178) In 1963, Meyers was a sales manager in the sporting goods division of Ero Manufacturing Co., 714 West Monroe Street, Chi- cago.(1823) In 1964, he moved to a similar position with a competitor, Farber Brothers, Inc., of Memphis, Tenn.(1824) In 1963, he told an acquaintance that his headquarters was in Chicago and that he had usiness interests in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Las Vegas. (1825) In 1978, Meyers was semiretired and worked for himself under the cor- porate name of LVM Sales, Inc. He was also connected with Walls Industry of Cleburne, Tex. (1826 ) (1179) There is no indication that Meyers had engaged in criminal _ activities, had a criminal record or had been the subject of any crim- _Inal or related investigations (besides the assassination investigation). E e did not appear to have any political or law enforcement connec- lons. 7 Treatment by the Warren Commission (1180) The Warren Commission considered Meyers to be a personal friend of Jack Ruby, with no intimation of criminal or similar links, and it merely tried to examine the extent of this friendship, Meyers’ 806 impressions of Ruby, and Meyers’ possible knowledge of any of Ruby’s actions or associates. Meyers’ Commission testimony of August 24, 1964, taken by Burt Griffin, was therefore direct and somewhat brief. (1827) Meyers was accommodating and responsive, but his recollection of dates and details was somewhat poor, as it was during his 1978 com- mittee deposition. (7828) (1181) Meyers told the Warren Commission that he first met Jack Ruby by chance at the Carousel nightclub, although he was not certain of the exact date. He said he had known Ruby for 6 or 7 years. (1829) (This predated Ruby’s ownership of the Carousel.) In his 1978 deposition, Meyers said that he first met Ruby at a sporting goods show in Dallas in 1961 or early 1962, to which Ruby had at of his interest in barbells and physical culture. (1830) Meyers shared that interest, and they also had their mutual Chicago backgrounds and religious beliefs. (1182) While their relationship has been described by a Carousel | dancer as casual,(2831) Meyers stated in 1964 that he had seen Ruby | 20 to 35 times since their first meeting ;they always met in Dallas at the Carousel, as Meyers had occasion to make frequent business trips to Dallas. (1832) In 1978, Meyers amended the number of contacts to 12. (1833) (1183) There is no indication that any pre-1963 visits by Meyers were relevant. Meyers visited Dallas at least four times in 1963. (1834) One © visit occurred in October. Most of the details concerning this visit came from Joyce Lee McDonald, a dancer at the Carousel, who stated that she first met Meyers on October 10, 1963, at the club and saw him — there for several evenings that week; she once had a few drinks with him. (1835) (1184) Meyers’ testimony indicated that he first met McDonald that week at the Texas State Fair (at the Dallas Fairgrounds), where McDonald had a part-time job involving a film promotion. This project was undergoing financial difficulties, and a $100 check from McDonald’s employers at the fair had bounced after Jack Ruby had cashed it. McDonald explained this situation to Meyers, and he responded by giving her a check for $200, payable to Ruby. (1836) In 1978, Meyers believed that the check might have been for $300 or $400. (1837) He said that Ruby was the payee because he thought Ruby would cash his check drawn on a Chicago bank without any inquiries or hesitation. (1838) McDonald stated that she kept $100 and gave Ruby $100 to re- imburse him for the bounced check. McDonald could not explain Meyers’ motive in writing the check, but believed that he would “make some type of request of her in the future.” (1839) | (1185) This incident seemed trivial, but Meyers was also in Dallas during the week of the assassination, arriving from Chicago with a female companion, Jean West, who also used the name Jean Aase. (1840) Meyers had first met West in Chicago a week or two before the assassination at a lounge in the apartment building where West lived at the time. Meyers described her as a “semi-professional hooker.” (1841) They arrived in Dallas on November 20, 1963, registering at the Dallas Ramada Inn. They moved to the Dallas Cabana on Novem- ber 21, 1963.(1842) Meyers was not able to explain fully the switch in motels and offered the possibilities that the Cabana was completely 807 booked or that he needed sleep after arriving in Dallas, and the Rama- da Inn was located at the Dallas airport. (1843) ae Meyers conducted his normal business activities during the ay on November 21, 1963 and, accompanied by West, visited Ruby at the Carousel that evening,(2844) although in 1978 his recollec- tions of this meeting were very vague, virtually non-existent. (1845) The Carousel visit lasted for approximately one hour; they had drinks and discussed show personalities, the acts at the Carousel and other things. (7846) Meyers told the Warren Commission that Ruby was upset that evening over the firing of Janet Conforto (“Jada”), one of his performers, (7847) although the dismissal had occurred one month earlier. (7848) (1187) Meyers and West returned to the Cabana after having in- vited Ruby to join them there for a drink. Ruby arrived at the Cabana at approximately midnight, (1849) where he met Meyers and West and was introduced to Edward Meyers (Lawrence’s brother) and his wife. Edward Meyers was in Dallas attending a convention related to his New York bottling and distributing business. (7850) Ruby stayed at the Cabana only a few minutes, saying he had to return to his club. (1857) (1188) Meyers’ next contact with Ruby occurred on Saturday night, November 23, 1963, although the exact circumstances are muddled. When interviewed following the assassination, Meyers had spoken of a telephone call to his room at approximately 10 p.m. from Ruby. (1852) They talked for 15 to 20 minutes, were unable to arrange a meeting that night, and made tentative plans to have dinner the fol- lowing evening. (1853) In 1978, Meyers adamantly stated that he also had dinner with Ruby on Saturday night at the Cabana. (1854) This has not been corroborated and seems very unlikely in light of the committee’s knowledge of Ruby’s activities during that weekend. (1855) (1189) Meyers told the FBI that on Sunday, November 24, 1963, Meyers went to McKinney, Tex., on business and then to Sherman, Tex., intending to play golf, but this was canceled after news of the shooting of Oswald arrived. (1856) Meyers told the committee that he received the news of the shooting while driving to his golf date and that he continued and played a round of golf (shooting his “worst round ever”). (1857) Meyers stated that the news left him in disbelief, and he decided against trying to contact either Ruby or the Dallas police department. (7858) On Monday, November 25, Meyers and West flew back to Chicago. Meyers never saw West again. 1859 aan ic} Meyers characterized Ruby as an emotional, aggressive in- dividual with strong views on most issues. Ruby often told Meyers about the labor problems he was having and of his admiration for President Kennedy. Meyers related that Ruby often dropped names (of entertainers, public officials, Dallas police officers, “racket people”), out the only friend or associate of Ruby’s that he ever met was George Senator. The Warren Commission inquired as to whether Ruby ever ‘old Meyers about any underworld association. Meyers responded affirmatively, saying that Ruby dropped names many times, but always na general way rather than specifically.(/860) Meyers also dis- 808 avowed any knowledge of a Ruby involvement in specific criminal activities such as narcotics or prostitution, (1861) although he men- tioned that Ruby once said something about scalping sports tickets in Chicago and being a runner for a Chicago numbers racket. (1862) Meyers believed that Ruby’s shooting of Oswald was a totally im- pulsive act. (1863) (1191) When discussing the November 23, 1963, telephone call from Ruby (or the dinner conversation), (7864) Meyers stated that Ruby seemed very disturbed about the assassination and the fact that other Dallas nightclubs were remaining open that weekend, with Ruby re- marking that he had to do something about the situation. Meyers said that Ruby became quite incoherent during this conversation. (1865 +7993 Along with taking Meyers’ testimony, the Warren Commis- sion also examined 1963 FBI reports on Meyers, West and Edward Meyers (7866) and examined telephone records for Meyers’ 1963 employer, the Ero Manufacturing Company.(1867) No calls of a suspicious nature were found. (1198) The Commission also questioned several other witnesses as to whether they knew or had heard of Lawrence V. Meyers. Ralph Paul said Meyers’ name meant nothing to him. (/868) Eva Grant, (1869) Alice Nichols (1870) and Curtis Crafard (1877) all said they had no recollection of this individual, although Meyers has stated that he knew Eva Grant.(7872) Ruby’s roommate, Geurge Senator, said he remembered meeting Meyers at the Carousel one night during the summer of 1963, although he was not sure of the date. Senator gave the Warren Commission a brief description of Meyers and stated that he knew a little bit about his business, but not how Ruby had met him.(1873) Senator stated that he met Meyers just that one time, but Meyers told the FBI that he had met Senator at the Carousel on several occasions, (7874) and he told the Commission that he had met Senator about six times, the first time being shortly after he met Ruby. (2875) In 1978, however, Meyers stated he had met Senator only once, merely saying hello and how are you.(1876) Meyers has also stated that he had met Abe Weinstein casually, after Weinstein was out of the nightclub business, (7877) and that he knew Joe Campisi, having first met him in the late 1960’s or early 1970’s at a golf tournament. (1878) (1194) Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assassina- tions. 809 UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS oC000000 United States Federal Building U.S. Magistrate Courtroom 16F2 1100 Commerce Street Dallas, Texas Monday, May 22, 1978, 2:10 p.m. APPEARANCES: JOHN HORNBECK, Senior Staff Counsel Select Committee on Assassinations U. S. House of Representatives Washington';> Ds Cc. 20515 DONALD PURDY, Staff Counsel Select Committee on Assassinations U. S. House of Representatives Washington, D. .Cs 20515 SWORN TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE VICTOR MEYERS 810 PROCEEDINGS Whereupon, LAWRENCE VICTOR MEYERS was duly sworn and testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY MR. PURDY: Q | Mr. Meyers, will you please state your full name for the record. A. Lawrence Victor Meyers, M-e-y-e-r-s. Q. Just prior to beginning this deposition, I have just explained a few of the minor details to make sure it is clear to you before we begin. I have just recently given you a copy of the rules of the committee and the resolutions setting up the committee; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Essentially, one of the main points of the deposition is that it is voluntary? Do you understand that? A. I am aware of that. 0, At any time you can refuse to answer questions. |). You can call a halt to the deposition, and that you can get advice from an attorney at any time. Do you understand those points? A. I am aware of that. 811 0. Finally, I want the record to show that you understand this is a deposition under oath and that the normal penalties for perjury apply to this testimony. A, I know that. Q. Would you please state your present address? A 6219 Bandera, B-a-n-d-e-r-a, Dallas 75225. 0. How long have you lived there? A Since 1964. Well, now, wait a minute. Do you mean how long have I lived at this address? Q Yes; A Oh, four years. 0. And where did you live prior to that? A. 6026 Averill Way, Dallas. The same Zip. Q. And when did you move there? A. I would that would be now some eight anpeye ago. Prior to that I lived at 2800 Cathedral Way, | also in Dallas. Q. Was that your first residence in Dallas? > That was our first Dallas residence. Q When did you arrive in Dallas? A. I know it was 1964. I am almost sure that the month was March. I think it was March of '64. Q Where did you move from? A. Chicago. 812 Q. How long had you lived in Chicago before you nN moved here? A. Well, including the suburbs, we lived in > Chicago for about eh years. wm Q. Eight years. What was your occupation in Chicago? MM | A. In Chicago, at the time I lived -- the early part of my Chicago living I was with a company called Healthways out of Los Angeles, California. Q. And then where did you work? A. Then I left them and went with -- I became a manufacturer's representative. That lasted for a couple of years. Then I went to work for Ero, E-r-o, Manufacturing Company in Chicago. Q. What SRNR eT ean you have when you lived in New York? A. Nothing, really. I left New York when I was just a kid. I worked as a soda fountain dispenser for a while. I left there when I was probably 17 years old, 17 or Le. Q. Where did you go then? A. Well, no place svecifically. I just traveled around the country to various places. Q. Until you settled in Chicago? 813 A. No. I settled in San Diego. InehIaaA = got to San Diego. I went to work as -- Do you want the history there. Q Yes, sir, just some of the more general things. A. All right. I went tot work as a shoe clerk in San Diego for .a company called Edison Brothers Shoe Company. I met my wife. We were married in 1936. We lived in San Diego for -- this could vary a year or Wl. I can't be positive. We lived there until about 1939, I guess, and then we moved to Los Angeles. We lived on a street called Virginia Avenue, and then we came back to San Diego and I went t work for Nabisco, National Biscuit Company, and then -- Q. What year was that? A. I beg your pardon? Q What year was that? A. Oh, I would guess that I was with Nabisco, I know when World War II had begun. No, World War II begun when we lived on Virginia Avenue. I guess I was back in San Diego about oS 22 <3 w& (e w) °o co .o fo) wn ney o aow ~N=Sw= 1940, and I stayed there for a couple or three years - with Nabisco, National Biscuit Company. / 814 Then -- Now this is San Diego. Then we bought a house in Burbank, which you may be aware is a suburb of Los Angeles, and we lived there until 1952. And then I went to Chicago. I was with Healthways at that time. T“went to'Chicagotton set up the thing for that area, and then Mrs. Meyers and our two older children joined me there about a month or two after that. Q You talked about Ero Manufacturing Company in Chicago. What type of business did this company do? 10 A. Well, their basic business at the time I im went to work for them was manufacturing automobile seat covers, and Mr. Howard Leopold was the Chairman of the Board of the directors of the company, and he was aware, he become aware, that the seat cover business, which I don't suppose either of you two would be knowledgeable about, was on the downgrade. People were no longer buying seat covers. You know, in those days you went out and bought a new car and the first thing you did was put seat covers on it. So he wanted to add items to the company's manufacturing process that would fit in to their type of operation, which was a sewing operation, and my background had been the sporting goods Sat nee for these many years with Healthways, particularly. 815 And he was told about me and he called me in for an interview and everything went all right, obviously, and we set up a division of Ero Manufacturin Company where we produced life jackets, boat cushions, Sleeping bags, insulated underwear, anything that had to do with the sewing operation, and I was given charge of that setup. Q How long were you employed by Ero? A. Well, that could vary a few months or a year. I am not sure, but I would say from -- Oh, Lord. I know I was with them on my 50th birthday, which would have been 1960. I would say from about 1958, probably, to Barly 1963 on late. “643. Q. Did you have basically the same duties during that time? A. Yes. Q. Or did you responsibilities change? Ae ins No. I traveled around the country selling, and Neds setting up sales forces. Yes, it would be late 1963 because I had to come to Merten aad I am beginning to put things together. It's been a lot of years ago. Q. What were the chief accounts that Ero had that you would have worked with? 816 A. That I would have worked with? Q Yes. |a a Well, Sears, Roebuck, of course. In this area the biggest and probably the main account around here was a company called Gibson, Gibson Discount Centers. Q. Did you have a particular geographic region you were responsible for? A. No. I was sales manager. I had the United States. As a matter of fact, I had set up a number | of local reps in various areas to cover those areas. Q. Did you set up a local rep for the Dallas area? A. We didn't have one at that time. No. ue came here. | Q. Did you have a local rep for the Chicago area? A. No. I also covered that. However, we had them in Detroit and we had them in California. Q. You mentioned Sears and Gibson Discount as two of the major accounts. Which offices did you work with? A. Well, Sears I worked with in Chicago. And Discount was Dallas. Literally a suburb of Dallas at 817 that time called Seagoville. 0 Did you have an ongoing relationship with Gibson Discount during those approximately five or six years you were with Ero? A. Yes. As a matter of fact, Gibson Discount Center was the main reason for my moving to Dallas. Q What was the policy of Ero regarding your long-distance phone calls and the billing of them on business expenses? A. Well, I charged all of My expenses. i. either paid for them and the company reimbursed me or Prenkroed them directly to Ero, depending on how we had set that up. As far as long-distance phone calls are concerned, Ero had a WATS line which I used 99 percent of the time. Q | How about when you were traveling? A. I called on the WATS. I called collect, and whoever ashes for was not in at that time, obviously would return the call, call me back later on the WATS line: Q How about usher ay were making long-distance calls to someplace other than your headquarters when you were on the road? Did you have a telephone credit Card you would use? 818 _ A. I would guess. Now, here I am guessing because’'I can't tell you exactly. If I am making a long-distance phone call ‘other than to Ero, I could very likely have put it on a telephone company credit card. Q. You had one? A. Oh, yes. I have had one for years. Here again, it is a guess. Q Was that your personal card or was that a business card? A No. It was my personal card. Q. So then you would submit a bill to the business? A. Right. Q. What, every month? A. Ero would reimburse me periodically, depending on when I made a trip. Q. Did you have at any time more than one telephone credit card? A. No. Q Youl just thad’ one ‘copy.ofmeite? A. Yes. Q. Did anyone else have access to it? A. My wife would have had one. Q. She had a. copy ortitr 819 A. She had a copy of it or she had, you know, my credit card number written down, just as she does today. Q Did any of your local sales reps ever use your credit card number? A. No, not to my knowledge. Q. You never had a company telephone credit card? A. No. Although I did have company travel cards. Q. To pay for -- A. You know, plane trips and train and so on. 0. When you were on the road did you have occasion to make a lot of long-distance phone calls to places other than to your headquarters? A. Well, the Only long-distance calls I would normally make -- I can't remember every long-distance call I made then, obviously, but the oniy catisc*that TI would make to other than my home or to one of my sade or the company would have been to whoever I wanted to set up my next appointment with. Then I would call them long-distance to be Sure that they would be available when I wanted to get there, you know. Q When you made these calls you would 820 _ put them on your credit card? A. I would invariably, if I remember, put then on my. Creaqit cara, sure, Q. In the early 1960's, how often did you travel to Dallas or the Dallas area on business? A. Well, this again is a guess. I would come here frequently. Well, what I would call frequently. co I came to Dallas a number of times. Now, I would come to Dallas for two reasons. Not 10 necessarily both at the same time. One would be, of iB course, to see Gibson. Q. Was there a particular person you usually saw? A. Oh, I would usually work with Herb Gibson who was the Chairman of the Board of directors, or their sporting goods -- I don't even know if Lee Roy Kelso was with them at that time. It would a with Herb Gibson primarily. | Q Is he still alive now? A. Yes. He doesn't like me very much, but he is still alive? The other reason I would come to the Dalla area would be the fact that Ero had built a plant in McKinney, Texas, and that -- I beg your»pardon? Q. Go ahead. 821 That plant was primarily set up to manufacture the goods for me. It may some seat covers, but basically the production of the plant was life jackets, ski belts and sleeping bags. Q. What was the purpose for your actually visiting the plant itself? A. Well, it would have to do with a number of things. Production capability. You know, what I still had to sell, what we could still accept orders for deliveries. That was it. Of course, the plant manager was a friend Gf: min esitoo%. 0. What is his name? A. Sherwood Smith. Q He was the person you would have dealt wit the most on these trips? A I beg your pardon? Q Was he the person you would have dealt with most on these trips? A. Well, I would have seen Sherwood on any trip I made to the Dallas area, assuming he was in town at that time. Q. Is he still around? A. I beg your pardon? Q Ts? he? stil aldwesi Btil lar ound? 822 A. No. He lives in -- oh, it is a suburb of N Chattanooga. Ocean Springs or something of that type. He is running a plant in Chattanooga. I a have no idea whose plant it is. nn You see, Sherwood and I knew each other in Chicago. He worked for Ero in the Chicago office | for the Chicago Main Building where I also had my headquarters at that time. So we knew each other there. And when Ero built the plant in McKinney he was transferred to McKinney, Texas. Q. When you came to Dallas how long would you typically stay?. A. As a rule, two or three days. Q Where would you stay? A. A number of places. If I was going to work with Sherwood only I would stay at the motel in McKinney, which. was called -- oh, golly -- Woods Inn or something like that, Woods Motel. Other than that I stayed at the Cabana. At that time it was the Cabana. It is no longer called the Cabana. “And =-=wohzvegabiy;. I oxane remember. I must have stayed at some other motels in Dallas. 24 Q. You said when you came you would stay 25 approximately two or three days. 823 A. Yes, sir. Q How often would you come to Dallas?’ A. This again is a guess. I am estimating. I would say I would come to Dallas probably every couple of months, two and a half or three months. Something like that. Q. Would you normally come to Dallas alone or with other people? A. Most of the time alone. 99 percent of the time alone. Q And what would generally account for the other one percent? A. Company. I came to Dallas one time with a girl, and another time with a fellow named Harvey Lederman, who was Ero's -- oh, what the fay was his job with Ero. I really couldn't tell you what his exact job was, but he was, in a sense, one of the » executives of the company. Q When was that trip, do you remember? A. That) wasialso ins#63. Q Do you remember the month? A. No, I couldn?’t tell you the month® Q. Do you remember the season of the year? , A. I beg your pardon? Q Do you remember the season of the year? 824 as A. It would be a sheer guess. I have no nN memory of that. I know he was with his wife and father. w Q. Was the purpose of that trip to go to a McKinney or to go to -- mn A. To McKinney. We did go to McKinney. Oo Obviously, we went to McKinney. We also went to Monroe, N Louisiana to visit an account that I did a lot of fee] business with there, which was actually a Gibson bo) franchise operation out of Monroe, Louisiana. They 10 were called Gibson Discount Stores, but they were owned iB by a company called Howard Brothers who have since ceased, you know. They kicked out the franchise. They are now running their own stores, Howard Brothers Stores in Monroe. I know Harvey and I drove there. He went around with me to visit customers. Q. Who was your personal contact in Monroe, Louisiana for that local Gibson franchise? A. You know, my mind is blank on that. I haven't the vaguest idea. It will come to me, I am sure, sooner or later, but at this moment I can’t think oOfjda-t. I would have to remember the sporting 24 goods buyer at that time. I don't know. I couldn't 25 tell you. 825 Q On your trips to the Dallas area were there any particular clubs that were favorites that you frequented? A. The only club I ever went to in Dallas was the Carousel, the one that Jack Ruby owned, from the Standpoint of going to a club, you know. I would stop in at the lounge at the Cabana and have a drink. Q. Were there any particular restaurants that were favorites of yours? A. No, no special restaurant. Q Did you normally try to eat out or did you normally pee at the hotel where you were staying? A. z would rarely eat at the hotels.: I would invariably eat out. 0. Were there certain individuals that you would look up when you were in town? You were apparently here very often. A. Jack Ruby. I would always make it a point to say hello to him. Q Were there any business or personal associates of yours that you -- A. Other than Jack Ruby? Qa Yes. A. That I would socialize with? 826 Q. That you would spend any time with at all other than actually direct business meetings? A. (Shakes head.) Q. Where there any other business associates of yours that you haven't mentioned to us that you can remember? A. Not sthat dr.camtthink: of « Q. Were there any other particular companies that you had dealings with in Dallas? A. _ Companies that I did business with? There must have been some others. Oshmans out of Houstous Q. Could you spell that? A. O-s-h-m-a-n-s, and I would call on stores like Sanger-Harris, Cullum & Boren, which were major Sporting goods operations. Q But you didn't have, didn*t develop any friendships with any -- A. No personal contacts with any of these people, other than the man who owned Oshmans, who has long since been dead, Jake Oshman. Q Did he know Jack Ruby? A. - No. I have no idea how he could have possibly have known him. Q. Did you come to know during this period 827 any members of the Dallas Police Department? A. None. Q Any public officials of any kind? A. No. Q. Any other law enforcement-type people? A. No. Not. at that. time. Q. Did you know George Senator? A. I know who you are talking about. I am almost certain that I’ met him one time at the club when he was up there visiting Ruby. Q You don't remember any of the details? A. I haven't had any contacts with George Senator. Q. Just to meet him? A. He was at the club. I have a vague recollection of having met him there. tf this is. so, and I think it is, we just said hello and how are you? Q What did you typically do for entertainmen On your trips to Dallas? | JA You are going way back there. Really very Litrele? I would axed dinner with Sherwood Smith at his home, spend time there with him and his wife and kids, throwing baseballs around, play golf, if I had my elubs with: me, 828 This was when I would come here alone. That's it. Maybe go to a movie. Q. Did you have any particular other cities that you visited fairly frequently? A. Oh, there were a lot of cities that I visited frequently. Detroit, Cleveland, New York. Most of the major cities in the United States. St. Louis, Kansas City. I did a lot of business in Kansas City. Atlanta, Los Angeles, I think mentioned earlier. Minneapolis, Omaha. Many, many major cities in the country. That was my job. ee Did you ever meet Earl Ruby in Detroit or anyone else? A. (Shakes head.) Now, that's Jack's brother? Q Right. A. I never met him. I never knew anything about him until after this thing happened. Q You didn't have occasion to mention to Jack Oe you traveled around a lot, and he mentioned his brother Earl? A. Oh, I'm sure I mentioned that to him. He knew I traveled, but he never mentioned his brother. I have no recollection of it. Q Did he mention anyone else in his family? 829 A. I knew his sister, the one here. Q The one in Dallas? A. Yes. 0. How often did you go to Las Vegas on business? A. Maybe once’a year. Maybe twice. Not frequently at all. Now, I went to Las Vegas far more often when we lived in California. Q What was the particular account or clients that you had in Las Vegas? A. I never went to Las Vegas on business specifically from California. Q. Did you have any business interests of any kind in Las Vegas? A. Min sorry.” WT didn't? hear *tnhat. Q. Did you have any business interest of any kind in Las Vegas at any time? A No. Q Do you remember Joyce McDonald? A. (Shakes head.) Q. Who went by the name of Joy Dale? A. Are you talking about the girl I brought to Dallas with me? Q. No. 830 A. I just don't remember her name. Q. No. I am talking about someone that worked for Jack Ruby. A. The name doesn't ring a bell at all. One of the strippers, no doubt? 0 She went with you to the Texas State Fair one evening. A. Oh, now you ee it, up. Yes. I know who you are talking about. When you mentioned the State Fair, I remember that. She was working with a group of people at the Texas State Fair. They were doing a performance of some kind. I don't even remember what it was. Sort of a play. Are you with me? Q Yes. A And I think -- now, here again I am conjecturing, but I think Jack asked me to look her up and say hello to her. | Otherwise I wouldn't cold go up and talk to her. But I did, and I don't know what the hell went on but one word led to another. Then she told me that this particular group she was with needed some money to change the production or to get over something that they had to get over, some hump or something, and 831 I gave her a check. I asked Ruby if I should and he said sure. Q. Was he present at the time when she asked you for the money? A. No. No. Hevsaid Wf. DP fele Likewit td’ go ahead “and ms, Ltt My intentions, of course, were strictly ulterior at time as far as she was concerned. Let's face it, I was just trying to make points. As I said before, I was much younger then. ‘2 gave her a check, and I think it was either three or $400.00. I can't remember now, and she asked me where-to cash it. I¢said, "Well; hell, have*youw gota checking account?" She said, "No." I said,"Well, give it to Jack. He will cash it. He knows my check is good," which I think She did, and that's all I know about that. Q. You say you asked Jack whether you should give her the check. So she bawea for the check, and Jack wasn't with you at the time? A. That’s réght. Q. So did you call Jack or did you ask him 832 personally whether you should give her the check? A. I asked him personally. I very likely saw him at the club that evening or the next night or whatever. You see, I never saw Jack Ruby -- let me make two things clear here to you. The only times, twice, that I have any recollection of having seen Jack Ruby outside of his nightclub or outside of the Carousel, other than to leave the Carousel with him when he closed it to get, you know, a cup of coffee or something. He was going home and I was going where I was staying, which was once when he came by and we had a sporting goods show. That was when we first met. He stopped to -- we also made barbells. He was interested in physical culture. Q What year was this, do you remember? A. Oh, again, I am guessing. I would say probably '61 or maybe early '62, something like that. We discussed barbells. At least we starte to,discuss that. One word led to another. I was from Chicago and so was he. Blah,: blah... sosaandsiso. | The only other time I saw Jack Ruby outsid of his club was when he had dinner with me that Saturday night iat the, Cabana: Q. You are talking about the Saturday night 833 after the assassination? A. Yes. We did leave his club, oh, I don't know. Two or three times when he would close it up. We would, as a rule, walk around the corner. I am trying to remember the name of the restaurant, a little coffee shop directly behind the -- well, adjacent to the Adolphus Hotel on Elm Street. Q Well, I am going to want to pursue the questions of those meetings around the time of the assassination in a few minutes. Regarding some of your visits to Las Vegas, maybe some persons who have been previously associated with Dallas you might have met them in either place. ; Did you ever meet or did you ever know of Mr. Benny Binyon? A. No. I know who you are talking about? Be How did you know who he is? A. Well, because he was, and I guess still is, an ex-Texan who was well-known in the gambling fraternity. Q Did you know anyone that knew him well? A. Not that :I can think of offhand. Q. But you never met with him? A. I wouldn't know him if he walked in here. 834 ¥ Q. Did you ever meet Louis McWillie? A. No. 0. Did you ever know of him? A. No. That name doesn't ring a bell at all. Q. Did Jack Ruby ever mention knowing a Louis McWillie? A. Not to my knowledge. Not to my memory. Q Did you ever meet Tony Zoppi? A. I never met him. I. saw, Hime Q. Where did you see him? A. You see, here again it becomes confusing. That name I would associate with Dallas after the assassination. You see, he lived in the Dallas area at that time. , He was in Dallas, if my memory is correct,fj shortly after I got here. He was ened men with show business one way or another. Producing shows or setting up shows. You see, I don't know the man. I have never talked to him. Q. You never met him in Dallas or Las Vegas? A. No. Q Have you ever met R. D. Matthews? A. No. Q Russell D. Matthews who used to work in Dallas, and currently works in Las Vegas? 835 A. No. Doesn't ring any bells at all. 0. You mentioned you met Jack about 1960 or 2 eS oe What makes you think it was about that time? A. Well, it had to be before the assassinatio Q. Do you remember talking to the FBI in December of 1963 about Jack Ruby? A. Hey (lJ a —iin Mig psIs I Q In that report you mentioned that you had met Jack Ruby approximately five years earlier than the assassination. A. Well, then, my memory has gone real bad because I don't think I would have know Jack five years prior to the assassination. Q ' You have said you had fairly frequent contacts with Dallas between 1958 and '63. 1958 would make it about five years before the assassination. A. Right. Q Is there something that helps you make the determination that you fa met Jack Ruby in 1961 rather than in 1958? A. No. I am just trying to remember how - long I would have known Ruby, and to the best of my 836 memory now it would have to be some two to three years nN before the assassination. Q Did you know when he owned any club other > than the Carousel Club? wn A. If he did,;, at any time I Knéw hin, didn't know anything about it. MN The only club I ever saw him at was the Carousel. Q Did he ever own some other club at a time when you knew him? A. You see here, I have to separate what I knew and I have read since. I know that he owned a club or he started a club that he gave to his sister. Now, whether it was before, I just don't remember. Q. Did you ever go to the Vegas Club? A. Do you mean in Dallas? Q. Yes. A. I wouldn't know where it is today. I have } never heard of it. Q. Did you ever know Jack Ruby to go out of town, to leave Dallas? A. No, which he could very well have done but he never said anything to me. I mean at a time when I knew, when I 837 talked to him, he had never said -- I have no recollection of him having told me he was going out of town or going on a trip or whatever. Q Nor did he mention that he had recently been out of a town on a trip? A. If he did, I just don't remember it. Q You don't have any specific recollection of him having gone to Cuba? A. No. Q Have you ever been to Cuba? A. Oh, my. any*propably;~1L934. A he.oe something like that. Q But not since then? A. No. That was when Cuba was wide dpen. It was a different then. As a matter of fact, a number of ate friends went to Cuba at that time from Miami. Q Back in the 1930's? A. Back in the 1930's. That was before I met my wife. it woulda to be before 1936. Q Did you have any friends who went to Cuba , between, say, around 1958 to 1960? A. (Shakes head.) Q. No business associates or personal friends? A. No. 838 Q. Did you have any knowledge of the gambling activities in Cuba in the late 1950's? A In Cuba? Q Yes. A. Just what I saw when I went there on that one trip. Who was running it or what, I don't know. Q. You say you left the Ero Manufacturing Company in late 1963. Where did you go to work next? A. Farber Brothers. Q. Why did you make the switch? A. Well, Ero was on the downgrade. Business was going very bad. They were in sever financial problems, and I owed quite a bit of money to some people in the Chicago area that I could not repay through my Ero association, and so I told these people that I would repay them at so much per month, but that I was going to Sianets jobs, which I did. I did. In other words, I changed jobs and I repaid them. 0. What was the reason the Ero job wouldn't enable you to repay them? A. Because the Ero thing was phasing out. Q Because, in other words, your salary o potential or your earnings -- 839 A. I was limited extremely. They had built two new rERiptolisteton that) they’ didh 'thave®* to> boi id. Welds, “VEets* put 1° @nother’ way: ene buil two new factories that became a drain on the company finances, and the production that I had put them in, in the sporting goods manufacturing, was becoming more and more competitive, so the profit picture had begun to become very limited. Q Was Farber a similar company to Ero? A. To a degree. Farber was very similar. As a matter of fact, they also still are a seat cover manufacturing company, and they wanted to get into the same field. You know, life jackets and boat cushions, so on and so forth. And the reason -- you might as well get the rest of the thing while we are at it, because as we talk about it it comes back to me. Sherwood Smith left Ero, left the McKinney plant, and went to work for Farber. Q. Approximately when? A. Here again, I don't know. It would have to be a sheer guess. | Q. Was it a long time or a short time before you went with Farber? A. It was a reasonably short time. Within a 840 year. He went to work for Farber, and then Maurice Farber was looking or had need for somebody like me, and he told Maurice about me and we talked and one thing led to another and I went to work for him. Q What was your position with Farber? A. Selling sporting goods. Q. Did you have the responsibility for a certain geographic area? A, Yes. Q What was the geographic area? A. Well, basically this area. Basically the southwest, but he would also send me to certain areas where I thought I could open up some business. Q What were you major accounts in the Dallas area with Farber? A. The same. Q. Bago amin the same accounts? A Basically. Q Farber was a direct competitor of Ero? A. Yes. You see, I had made Farber a direct competitor. The same business. Well, there was only one thing that we added to the line that I sold a lot ofeat thatitime, and those were -- would you know what I mean when I say coil spring cushions? Cushions that youTsit om in a 841 Car. Kool Kushions. Farber manufactured that and Ero didn't, and we sold quite a few of those. So, there again I started working with certain automotive accounts that I did not work with in the Ero picture. AS a matter of fact, in most cases, it would have really been the same accounts but a differen buyer. You see, I worked primarily with the major, as we say the majors, the chains, so I would sell the Same account but I would literally, as I do today, I would work with two separate buyers and in some cases five different buyers, depending on who bought the particular category that I was selling at the time. Q. You said earlier that you moved from Chicago to Dallasin approximately March of 1964. A. Yess Q. What prompted that move? A. The fact that I was spending more time traveling from the Chicago area to the Dallas area to do business. A greater part of my volume was coming out of the southwest, which at that time necessitated my coming down here frequently from Chicago, and the decision we made was it would be much wiser to live in this area. Farber Brothers is a Memphis, Tennessee 842 _ company. Our original converstion was would it be wiser to move to Memphis. The more we talked about it it was decided that it would be much wiser to live in Dallas. Q. Who do you work for now? A. Myself. I am LVM''Sales’, Inc. Do you want the) picture off whatial sor now? Q Generally. x All cagit. I am, I suppose you would say, 75 to 80 percent retired. I came to Dallas. I worked with Farber for a while. Then -- well, I might just as well tell you exactly how it was. I wanted more money because I was doing very well, and Maurice Farber made me a vice-president. I said, “What. is this ‘fox He said, “Lt will open more doors for you." I said, "I would much more prefer to open the door at the bank." In other words, he wouldn't give me any more money but he did make me a vice-president. So then I says, "Well, why don't you let me add another line or two?" You see at that time I worked strictly for Farber. So he ‘said, "All rightV “If youswantetto Moms that way, we will change your financial setup. You will 843 operate on a.draw against a commission basis instead of a flat salary and expense account," which was fine, very satisfactory, so I took on some other lines and the other lines got so big and Farber's line became so unimportant that I gave up Farber altogether and wound up with lines that fitted predominantly in the men's clothing field. I should almost say probably to the men's worldsin the. sports; clothing.field. Now, about -- I don't know -- roughly a year ago I gave up all of the other lines with the exception of one that I still keep and I will keep as long as I am physically and mentally capable of working. Q. What is that? A. That's a company called Walls Industry. They are out of Cleburne, Texas. Now, here again, as long as we are on this subject -- I would just as soon.not.haye to go to Washington to tell you all of this again -- I have a peculiar setup with Walls. I do not have a territory. I am listed in their records as a special accounts salesman. I only sell mass merchandise, and that could be any place in the United States. tT have ‘to, go'to. Datrolt tomorrows. itois is 844 for K=Mart. 0. We were talking earlier about some possibl clubs that you may have frequented when you were in Dallas. in the early 60's. Have you ever been to the Colony Club? I don't think so. I know where it is. I know where Le was: There were three clubs downtown in that area. There was the Colony, Carousel and another one that belonged to the brother of the fellow who had the Colony. I don't remember the name of it. It is highly possible I might have stopped in there and had a drink, and then again I may have not I have no recollection of spending any time there. 0. Did you ever meet either of the Weinstein brothers? A. I met one. Q Which one? A. I think his name is Abe. What were the circumstances under which Q. you met him? A. Just casually. Q. You just met him socially? A. I would have to say casually. No set up appointment or anything. 845 We just talked to each other someplace someday. I remember distinctly talking to him, but he was long out of the nightclub business. But other than that I have no recolléction of having met either of them. Q You think you just him on one occasion? A. I don't remember having seen him on more than one occasion. I could have. I live in Dallas and he lives here, too. Q. DO you remember what you discussed with him? A. I would almost have to say it would have to be the nutty Ruby thing, because I remember meeting him long after the assassination. I have no recollection of having met him prior to Kennedy's assassination. Q. You mentioned a number of cities you have had business dealings in. : Have you had any business dealings in New Orleans? A. Yes. I still do business there with the Security Company, which at that time was a chain of sporting goods stores. Q Did you have those contacts with them in the early 1960's? 846 A. Well, no. I have to remember. I would think so. I would think that I would call on Marvin Rossman with Ero. You see, to get back to the early 1960's, I have to associate it with Ero and it is highly possible I was in there and it is highly possible -- now, I did some business with Marvin Raseineat yes, when I was with Ero. It is coming back to me now. I know he used to buy the rowing machine we made, too. I tried to cdo business there with another chain operation called Schwegmann's, or something like that, but we couldn't do anything. He didn't need it or whatever. That's the only company I can remember in New Orleans having done business with. Q. You said Marvin Rossman. Is that a person's name? A. Yes. Q, Who did he work for? A. He owns Security, he and his brother Leonard. Q. So he was the main person you dealt with? A. Sep ehoan Q About how often did you travel to New 847 Orleans in the early 1960's? A. Oh, I would say Maybe a maximum of twice a year. ate Did you have a specific reason to go there, or did you -- A. Just to see them, plus the fact that I enjoyed New Orleans. It isa lovely city. Q Did you travel to New Orleans in 1963? A. I don't remember. I really can't. I very likely was there in 1963. I; can*t pinpoinitodit . I would have to say that it is highly possible that I was there, but I cannot tell you when. Q. Were there any particular problems or successes with your business contact there that would have made you go more or less frequently in 1963? A. No, because Marvin gave me a routine amount of business that was pretty basic each time I called on him, whether it was for the winter line, Spring line, or spring and summer line, and we would visit for maybe an hour or two, maybe have a cup of coffee and that would be it. Q. Did you visit New Orleans in November of 1963? A. I wouldn't -- if my life depended on it L-couldn*t tell vou, 848 Q. Well, thinking back from your visit to wD Dallas which was in like the third week of November, does that refresh your memory as to where you had been > prior to that particular date? wn A. No, because at that particular time I came to Dallas regularly from Chicago. Ns You see, November would not have been a time for me to have called on New Orleans because it is much too early for spring goods and much too late for winter goods. Q You indicated earlier you came directly from Chicago. What trips had you taken to other cities prior to your departure from Chicago? A. I wouldn't have the vaguest recollection. 0 You agian Ke have a specific’ route that you followed or anything? A. No. Q Do you know a person called Elsa Hacker? A. Do I know her or did I know her? Q Have you ever known her? A. Very well. Q. How did you know her? A. Well, we had quite a thing going for a number of years. 849 Q. Did this include the period of the late 50's and early 60's? A. I know the early 60's. Possibly the late a. Ss Q Where was she living at this time? A. At the time that I met her? Q. At the time you met her and you knew her? A. Chicago. Q. She lived in Chicago during the period of the late 50's and early 60's? A. (Nods head. ) 0. Did she travel to any other cities during that time? A. Well, she made atrip with me one time to Florida. Q. When was that? A. Oh lords. I.don't know. his? .e,) A. (Shakes head.) Q Did you ever have any dealings with the MN Teamsters Union? A. No way. Q. Do you know Joe Civello? A. No. Q. Do you know of him? A. No. Q. Do you know Joe Campisi? A. (Nods head.) 0. How do you know Mr. Campisi? A. He owns the Egyptian Restaurant in Dallas. 0. When did you meet him? A. Oh, Lord. When I first met Joe Campisi, I would venture to say it was -- you are speaking about meeting him rather than going to his restaurant and eating? Qo Yes. A. The first time I met Joe Campisi would 24 probably have been maybe six or seven or eight years 25 ago. I met him originally -- do you know what the 859 B'nai B'rith is? We have a golf tournament every year, and he plays in it every year, Aas the first time I met him was at this particular B'nai B'rith Calcutta Golf Tournament. AS -aemattersofsfact, Iephayednwiththim the other day. Q. Did you ever eat at the Egyptian Lounge in the early 1960's? A. I could have. You see, I cannot -- there' no way I can tell you positively. I certainly could have. GO: Well, if you did you didn't meet him at that time? A. No. I. didn't ever know him. 0. In your visits to Dallas in the late '50s or early ‘60s, did you ever particupate in or have knowledge of any gambling activities of any kind? A. Never. Q You never participated in any card games PARES A. Well, card games. I have played gin rummy or something like that. But nothing you would call a card game. 0. Did you ever acquire any knowledge of the existence of any bookmaking activities in Dallas in the 860 early '60s? A. None. 0. You mentioned earlier that you met Jack Ruby around 1960 or 1961. A. Well, you know, to preface that again, you told me about the FBI saying that I had known him for five years. I don't know whether I said it wrong or whether they misunderstood me or whatever. I have to go back in my memory, and all I can say is I had met Jack Ruby some two to three years prior to the assassination. 0. What were the circumstances surrounding the time you met him? How did you meet him? A. How did I meet him? Q. Yes. A. We were having a sporting goods show, exhibiting sporting goods. 0 This was Ero? A. Yes. Among the items exhibited was barbells. He was a physical culture proponent. AS a Matter of fact, I know he spent a lot of time at the YMCA using their goods, which he had told me about, an@ he stopped and we got to talking about this stuff. On@ word led to another. 861 He was from Chicago and I lived in Chicago, and he was Jewish and I was Jewish, and I was visiting in Dallas. I. told him I would get him a set of barbells at my cost which was far less than what he would have had to pay had he bought them peo store, and he had a nightclub and he told me about his club and invited me up there. I was, to whatever degree, a rounder in those days, and so I went up and that was it. That's how we met. Q. ' Do you remember specifically where it was you met? You mentioned at this demonstration. A. I don’t know where the heck we held it. I can't remember. Probably at the Baker Hotel or somewhere like that. Q You didn't meet him for the first time in the Carousel? A. No. Q So the first time you saw him at the Carousel was after he had invited you to -- A. After he had told me what kind of place he had. 0. Had you ever met him or heard of him in Chicago? 862 A. No. Q. Did you ever subsequently see him in Chicago? A. No. Never. Q. Apprximately how many times altogether did you see Jack Ruby? A. Here again it's a sheer guess. I would probably say a dozen times. Q What would usually be the circumstances that would lead up to your seeing him or -- A. I would go in the Carousel. I would be bored in the evening with nothing to do and would walk up there and have a drink. Q. Before you came to town on a business trip would you call ahead to see if he would be free to get together with you for dinner? A. I never called Jack. I never called. Q. Once you arrived in Dallas would you call over there? A. I might have called him at the club when I got to Dallas. That I don't remember, but I could have done it. I never called him long-distance to tell him I was coming in. Q. Was you typical contact with him at the 863 Carousel Club? rt Yes. Q. Would you be. joing him for,dinner or just £Oryad rinks OL rs= A. No. We had dinner together just one time, to the best of my memory, and that was that Saturday night. Now) -he.didni tvdrink, butiI,would go,up to the club and sit there and I would order a Coca-Cola or whatever. He would have one of the Pavereb site bring me a drink. If I remember right, in those days, you still had to bring your own bottle in Dallas, and obviously he was not allowed to sell drinks. Q Did you ever meet him at his apartment? A. No. I have never been to his apartment. Oy. Did you ever see his apartment? A. No. Q. Did you ever visit the Sovereign Club? A. No. I don't know a thing about it. I believe I asked you before and you said Q that you didn't know about the Vegas club; is.that _— connecti? A. Never heard of it. Did Jack Ruby ever ask you for help otnexr 0. a; 864 than to see if you could get him a good deal on the barbells? A. No. Q. Did he ever ask you for help with any people in Chicago that you might know? A. No. Q Did he ever, in discussing the problems he was having with this entertainment union, ask you for either help or suggestions as to what he should do? A. tT. Rave’ no’ recollection” of" it: *°T* couldnt imagine why he would do it. I couldn't visualize it. Q. When you visited the Sarahtel Club was there an admission charge on those evenings? A. 1f- I~ rémember Tight ,- I" think? there’ was} a couple of dollars or something. Q. Did Jack Ruby’ let’ you’ in: free ustally? A. Here again, I don't remember. IWthink if he knew it was me coming in, he spa let me in. If he wasn't around, I just paid the $2.00 or whatever and walked on in. Q Once he saw you there would he pay for your drinks? A. No. He would greet me. He would see that I got a drink, if I wanted’ it./ ©T always paid* for them. Q. Did you ever ask him for any suggestions 865 on people you should look up in town, any businessmen that maybe he knew that would help you to get.contacts for making sales? A. No. Q Did you ever discuss any of your local clients with him that he might be able to provide information to you on? A. The only business I could possibly have discussed with Jack Ruby business-wise was to tell him that I did a hell of a lot of business here with Gibson, which meant nothing to him. Q. Did you ever lend him money? A. No. Q. Did he ever ask you to lend him money? A. No. Q. Did you ever go into any, or discuss any Mutual investments? A. No. Q. In your travels or when you would go back to Chicago did you ever have contact with him by phone or by mail? A. No. Q. You never had occasion to call him or to receive a call? A. I could think of no earthly reason for me 866 to eah2hdm on the telephone long-distance, and I certainly never wrote him any letters. 0. Did you ever write him or receive any letters from him when he was in jail? A. No. Q Did anyone ever contact you after Jack Rub was arrested to see if you would make a contribution to | a legal defense fund? A. (Shakes head.) Q Following Jack Ruby's arrest did you ever try to contact wvhin? A. No. I thought about going to see him in jail one time, but I decided against it. Q. Why did you decide against it? A. I just figured there was no point in getting involved. There wasn't much I could do for him. Q. He had never sent any messages directly to you asking for help? A. I never heard from him. Q. Other than that was there any particular reason that you didn't want to go see him? A. No. I just didn't want to be involved. Q. Which, if any, of your family members or relatives or associates did Jack Ruby ever have occasion to meet? 867 A My brother. Q. Is that Edward? A. Yes. That poor kid. You heard the story of why he was here, I guess, or do you want me to repea at to you? Q. There are a few other things I wanted to develop before going into that. A. Go ahead. Q. What other members of you family or associates? A. Just my brother and his wife. Q. Did you ever meet Andy Armstrong who worke atecne, GarouselwGlub? A. Who? Q. Andy Armstrong. A. No. .At. least.it. doesn't..ring any bells. Q Did you ever have occasion to meet or did Jack Ruby ever discuss Ralph Paul with you? A. No. Q How about Harry Hall? A. Neither of those names mean anything to me. Q. Did you nee in Dallas or subsequentl in Los Angeles a man named Alex Gruber? A. No. Q. Do you know Gordon McLendon? 868 A. I know who you are talking about, but I have never met him. Q. Do you know Alice Nichols? A. No. Q. Do you know Harry Olsen? A. No. Q. Did you know any of Jack Ruby's employees other than Joyce McDonald who we mentioned before? A. Yes. I knew one who worked as a part-time showgirl for him and also worked as a waitress. If you ask me her name I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it. 0. Did you know her just from a casual -- A. No. As a matter of fact, we spent the night together one time. Q. Do you remember what year that was in? A. No. LS6O0-1L967>5~ I’ am'gquessing: Q Regarding Joyce McDonald, you, in some of your previous reports, indicated that you had seen her in October and November of 1963. Do you remember meeting her at any other time? A. Well, if this was the time of the State Fair, that°is* the only time I ever met her. Q. Did you ever meet Janet Conforto who went 869 by the name of Jada? A. Jada? Q. I know who you are talking about. I remember the girl, but I never met her. As_a matter of fact, I saw Jack .throw her down a flight of steps one time. Q. Why did he do that? A. Because she took off more than he had told ner "to 4take™ oft. Q You mean in her performance? A. Yes, in her performance. Q Do you remember when that was? A. Gosh, I don't know. DP coutdn’ tt tellojyouws I know he was very, very perturbed about it} and i@say<-that ‘mildly. Q. Was haa anger solely based on her performance or was there something else? A. It was nothing to do with her performance other than the fact -- as far as I knew, was the fact that ane could have cost him his license. They had some drive at that time as to how much nudity, how aaah you could take off, and she went a little beyond where she should have gone, and he let her know about it. Do you remember him complaining about the Q. 870 salary he had to pay her? A. Theatre aon c snow, Q Did you ever know Karen Bennett who went by the name of Little Lynn? A. I don't know. These kids all had such names. I couldn't think of them in a hundred years. Q. Did you ever know Candy Barr? A. Again, I know who you are talking about but I never met her. MR. PURDY: We will take about a five- minute break. We will go off the record. (A short recess was taken.) MR. PURDY: We have just finished the break. BY “MR. “PURDY: Q Mr. Meyers, I will ask you if you ever Saw any police in the Carousel Club? A. J aon -t"Knows L think so. Q Did Jack ever point them out to you? A. Very likely. If they were there Jack would have pointed them out. Q. Did he ever introduce any of them to you? A. No. Q - Did he mention to you whether he had any special relationship with any of them? 871 A. Here again, that is a difficult question Le) to answer. He had never said anything to me about Ww having Special relationships with any policeman, but he a did mention to me that he was friendly with the police wm force. | a Now, how do you interpret that? Ms Q. Did he give any more details as to what he oc meant by friendly, aero: he supported the police Oo association or -- A. He would bring them hot pastrami sandwiche and coffee or whatever, things like that. Q Did he give them free drink cards? A. This. ts dont t«know. 0. Do you know if they had to pay for drinks or pay for admission? A. I have no idea. Q Did you know an any other sources or have you subsequently learned, other than just reading press accounts, that Jack Ruby was known to a lot of pales policemen? A. No. Q. Did you are any indication from Jack Ruby as to whether or not he was providing any information ~ to the police department or any other governmental wn agency? 872 A. No. 0. You talked earlier that Jack had mentioned, just generally, having a problem with the entertainment uibeem. Do you remember him saying or giving you any hint as to what he might try to do about it? A No’=.7" None at**a li’, Q. Do you remember him ever mentioning considering a lawsuit or injunction? A. I just haven't the vaguest idea. I knew that he was unhappy about it, and again I have to jack up my memory. I am almost certain he said he was going to do something about it, but what he was going to do about it I haven't the vaguest idea. Q You said in one of your previous accounts that Jack Ruby sae somewhat of a name-dropper. A. Right. Q. Do you remember any of the names or kinds of people he mentioned? A. No. I never paid any attention to ined, because most of the names he would drop had to do with people I would have no desire to know or no reason to know. Q What kinds of people would these be? A. Mostly racket people. 873 Q. Racket people in Dallas or in some other SLiy? A. Around the country. Q., What specific cities? A. I couldn't remember a name or a clty if my life depended on it. Q Do you think he mentioned Chicago or any people in Chicago since you were from there? A. Tat is Highly -pos'si'’b lex Q Do you remember any of the names he suggested of people from Chicago? A. No. Q. Did you know any of the racket figures in Chicago? A. That is, not that I knew who they were. I would not know. Q. From your visits to the Carousel Club did you get any impression as to whether or not any of the strippers he employed were involved as prostitutes at all? A. No. Q Did you gain any feeling from Jack Ruby as to whether he had strong feelings about customers soliciting the strippers? A. He did have definitely very strong feelings 194-105 0 - 79 - 56 about the girls soliciting the customers. Q What were those strong feelings? A. That he was very much against it. Q. Against them soliciting customers? A. Very definitely. Q Did he mention anything about being against j customers soliciting the strippers? A. This I don't know. How are you going to stop a customer from soliciting a stripper? I do know for a very definite fact that it was a very positive no, no to him apropos any Gir) s working in the place soliciting customers. Q. Did he ever take action against a stripper for soliciting? A. That I don't know. I never saw it. Q. In 1963; you took a number of trips to Dallas. Do you remember when the first one was? A. No. Q Do you remember, for example, a tr ip, citn February where you stayed at the Cabana? A. Is that the first time it opened? Is that when it first opened? Q No. That was the first visit in 1963. A. Well, the first time I stayed at the 8795 Cabana, this much I do know for a fact, the first time I stayed at the Cabana was either the day or the day sfter it opened. I couldn't tell you when that was. It could have been early 1963 or it could have been oO a I* aon’ t know. Q How long did you stay there on that occasion? A. I would have no occasion to Stay there longer than two or three days. Q Were you alone on that visit? A. i cen |SO. Q Were you just engaging in business on that trip? A. Yes. Q Was it the yi gel that you have discussed praviodery with clients in Dallas? A. It's highly possible. Let me clear one thing. Any trip I made to Dallas in those days had to do only with business. My purpose in making the trip was business. I would be here for no other reason. Q. In the October trip you mentioned the (24 incident with Joyce McDonald, and you had said you had 25 given her a check for maybe three or $400. 876 I think the records indicate it was probably about $200. A. Whatever it was. It was a couple of hundred dollars. Q Did you ever find out what happened to that money? A. No. I am almost certain, and here again, I am not positive but I am reasonably sure that Jack Ruby cashed the check for her. Q. Did you know that Jack Ruby took $100 of the money? A, He very well could have. I don't know. Q. You had said that you had an ulterior motive in regard to EP es the money to the girl. A. Sure. Q Was it your habit to be that extravagant with your money generally. A. No. It was just an interesting episode. Q Do you remember anyone else that you met at the fairgrounds, people associated with -- A. She probably introduced me to one or two of the people involved in the group she was with, but I wouldn't know them. If I saw them now I wouldn't know them. Q. Regarding the events of the assassination 877 weekend, the record indicates that you arrived in Dalla On November 20, and previously you said you came directly from Chicago. Do you remember what time of day you came, morning, evening? A. No idea. I know that I flew in. Q. From Chicago directly? A. I am almost positive I came direct from Chicago. Q. Did you pursue any business activities the first day you were there? A. I am sure I did. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been here. Q. Well, you might have arrived late'in the day and -- A. 2 mont know, Lt couran’t tell ‘you a.thifig Pnat I did tnat days” @ couidn't&® téll *you af all: “I couldn"t ‘tell a thing that I did ‘prior to Friday. Q The record indicates that you told the authorities that you pursued your normal business activities on November the 2lst, the day before the assassination. A. That very well could have been. Q. What would those busines activities have been? Yo 878 A. Calling on the accounts that I was doing business with. I would certainly have gone to McKinney, and I certainly have called on Gibson, and possibly one of the local department stores. Q. McKinney was the factory outside of town? A. Yes. Q To refresh your memory you apparently planned to go to McKinney on Sunday. A. That's true. Q. So would you likely have gone there also on Thursday? A. Oh, sure, because Thursday would have been business. Sunday would have been personal. Q. Personal, to show your relatives the -- A. Not my relatives. My relatives were not with my Sunday. They left Sunday. My purpose in going to McKinney was to stop -- are you talking about Sunday now? Q Yes. A. My reason for going to McKinney Sunday was I had a golf date in Sherman, Texas, and I had told Smitty.that 1. was. going. to-stop that L.would.stop. at his house in McKinney early Sunday morning and have breakfast and then go on from there to Sherman, which I 879 did. 0. Did you go through Daily Plaza at all during that weekend? 2.2 Yes. I went through Daily Plaza on Friday, because I went to Fort Worth. Q. In other words, you just drove through. | A. Yes. Q. Was that before or after the ee eee A. Well, let me sort of jump the gun on you, and I think I can give you a little clearer picture. On the Turnpike there are -- I guess it was Howard Johnson at that time, too. There is a Howard Johnson restaurant about halfway across right outside of Arlington, and I can't remember whether I stopped there on the way to Fort Worth or on the way Hack from Fort Worth, but as I walked into the Howard Johnson somebody said, "My God, did you hear what happened?" I said, "No. What happened?" if He said, "The President has been shot." And that’ Ss. it. Q. Where did you go after -- A. After I heard riss? * f Q. Yes. A I came right back to Dallas to the Cabana. Q. What did you do andesase of Friday? 880 A. Got. so sick, of listening. to all, of) the news and all of the descriptions of it on television. Q. Did you talk with Jack Ruby or see him that day? A. Well, there again, I don't remember. I could very well have, because we did have a dinner date for Sunday -=- for Saturday nightsy I'm sorry. Now, whether I made the date with him Friday evening or whether I made it with him Saturday morning, I don't remember. I can,t.teli youd I just haven't the vaguest recollection. Q When you first came to Dallas on that trip you checked into the Ramada. Why did you switch to the Cabana?: A. Well, if I checked into the Ramada at the airport, I got out of there because I couldn't sleep. The Ramada Inn at that time was right at Love Field which then was the main Dallas airport. Q. Well, you had been to Dallas quite a number of times before. Had you ever stayed at the Ramada before? A. I. don'teknow.+-~Possibly s,abut I.doubt.,it. Evidently I couldn't get in at the Cabana and I stayed there that night. At least that's the only reason I could 881 Rt tia Or. Normally I would not Stay at the Ramada at the airport. It"s the noisiest place in the world or was the noisiest place in the world. Q. So it is your sense that the first chance you got you bil kaha to the Cabana? A. They probably had no room for me that night, so I could have had a reservation at the Cabana for the following day and got here a day early. Q Where was your brother staying? A. At the Adolphus. Q. When did he arrive? A. I don't know. You would have to get that information. The Adolphus can tell you because he was here attending a bottlers convention, whatever date that started. I just don't know. Q You had kind of made plans in advance to A. Well, I knew We would be here. We had talked to each other. | Q. Was there a varticular day you planned to meet? A. Probably ee me aod because I know he was leaving Sunday. As a matter of fact, he left Sunday. I drove him to the airport. He left Sunday, just almost coincidental 882 with Kennedy's arrival. Q. Were you by yourself or did you know anyone else at the Ramada? A. I amssorry«ss WasyIsbysmyself orndid I know anybody else? Q. Yes. When you stayed at the Ramada was there anyone else with you or did you know anyone else that was staying there? A. Well, I -- I didn't know anyone else. I don't remember whether that kid from Minneapolis with me OL nO uw. CO the Ramada, or whether she met me the next day at the Cabana. I can't remember. Q. She came from Minneapolis and not -- A. She came from Chicago, but she was from Minneapolis. 0. rita a her name? A. I couldn't tell +ouw. I can't remember. 0. Jean Aase, A-a-s*e? A. I just can't remember. Q, Or Jean West? A. West. That rings a bell of some kind. Q. Was that just a name she was going by or was that her real name? ne 12 don Ue know. Do you know if she was going by her real 883 name? A. I have no idea. Q When you switched to the Cabana who else did you know that staying at the Cabana at that time? Your brother and his wife were, Obviously <- A. They were not at the Cabana. They were at the Adolphus. Q The Adolphus. A. I. didn't know anybody. Q You didn't know anyone at the Cabana? A. Unle #s that was the trip that Harvey Lederman and his father came down. If I did, then he was there, too. Q Do you know Jim Braden or Eugene Hale Brading? A. Jim Braden? Q Yes. He was probably staying at the Cabana at the same time. A. He very well could have been. i oon..c rove Q. Did you know Morgan Brown? A. (Shakes head.) Q. Have you ever known Morgan Brown? A. (Shakes head.) Q Do you know William Cies, C-i-e-s? 884 A. (Shakes head.) Q. Can you tell us the details of your contacts with Jack Ruby on November 21st, ie day before the assassination? A. I don't know. I have no memory of that. I may very well have been in the club that night. I may well have taken my brother to the club that night. I don't remember. It is possible I did. It is possibl i ‘didnt. 10 He would remember that better than me. VW I don't know. I don't even know if I saw him that day. I could have, but I just don't remember. Q Does it refresh your recollection to know that you and Jean West went to the Carousel and Ruby sat down at the table with you? A It's possible. Q. Do you remember how long that encounter lasted? A. Tr dom':t ‘Anow. «;sb.don'’.t haye the vaguest idea. 0. The record indicates it was just about an hour, or f60. A. I was just about to say maybe 45 minutes to tan Rhoaur,. It wouldn't have been very long. Q. Just enough time to have a drink? 885 1 A. | Just drink and yak, and watch maybe some 2 | girl strip or something. 3 Q Did you go that night for any particular 4 purpose or just -- 5 | A. No. Just to take Jean, if that was her 6 mame, to che club. 7 . Q Did you know anyone else at the club that 8 night? 9 A. No. 10 0. This was the night before the assassination. q Was Ruby acting any different than he yg || normally did? 3 A, Not a bit. 14 Q. You mentioned earlier that he was: having 15 some troubles with this stripper named Jada, and I 1%6 | guess he was a little bit anxious over it or upset with 177 | her. 18 Was that the only problem that he seemed to be having? | A. As" tar“ as* Itknow about it~: Q. Did Ruby indicate that he had any plans to do anything later that night or any other time that weekend? A. Not that I remember. Q Where did you go after you left the 886 Carousel that night? A. Again,» It couldn’ ttejdp you, It has been too long ago to remember. Q. The record indicates that you were supposed to meet your brother at the Cabana. A. Probably did. 0. The record also indicates that around 10:00 the night before the assassination was the time that you and Jean West saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel, and also indicates that you or he suggested that he come by the Cabana for a drink later that night. p As It's highly possible. Q. You have indicated previously that you | | believe Jack Ruby came about 11:45 or 12:00; in other or two hours after | words, maybe an hour and 45 minutes | you had seen him at the Carousel. A. At the Cabana? | Q. Right. A. LtecouLd very well be. Q Do you have any idea what you did between those two meetings? | A. No. Well, you see, based on what you are the record | telling me now, because you are reading from I really don't remember. If we left the Cabana about -4 If we left the Carousel about 10:00 or 10:30, as you | 887 . have’ “indicated —“"‘am I 'right? Q Something like that. A. The only thing we could have done would have been maybe stop someplace for a bite to eat and then go to the Cabana or just go directly to the Cabana and met my brother there. 0. In other words, you don't really have a specific recollection of whether you and Jean West stopped somewhere else to eat and -- A. I have absolutely no recollection of it at alr? Q. Apparently the record indicates that your brother ydtneéa you also. In other words, he hadn't bee with you up until the time he came to the Cabana. A. He was busy with various meetings. Q At the convention? A. Yes. Q. How long did this encounter at the Cabana last where Ruby joined you all? How long we: he there? A Do you mean where Ruby joined us? Q Yes. A T°don"t know. “Certainly I know “that my brother and his wife would not have stayed much longer, at the maximum, an hour. 888 I have no idea how long Jack stayed. It couldn't have been very long. Q. Did Jack try and interest your brother in getting into any kind of investment deal, one of these things he was trying to promote? A. Not that I know of. 0. Do you remember him ever trying to promote anything other than his clubs? A. He was not involved in anything else that I ever knew of. Q Did he mention to you the twist board idea? A. Oh, yes. I saw him on that thing. We just talked and that was it. Q. Did he suggest to your brother that he get involved with trying to promote it? A. He could have. He certainly didn't me because I laughed when he showed it to me. I remember right now, since you bring it up, he showed it to me one time at the club, and he stood on it and twisted around, and he said due to the fact that I sold sporting goods this ought to be a good idea, a good item for me to sell to the stores. 0. You ion *t think s07 A, No. You know, I wasn't going to be rude and-tell him, “Jack, throw it .out.of the window. 889 But I did say I would think about it and talk to him about it at another time, or let's forget =i for now. You know, a light brushoff. 0 Why would Jack come to join you at the Cabana after ne had just seen you for an hour -- A. Well, evidently I had invited him over for a drink. That's the only reason he would have been there. 0. Did you have drinks at the Cabana or was it too late at night for them to serve drinks? A. I don't remember. Let me brief you on one thing. I do not drink. I am not a drinker. I will take a drink. That's it. That's been pretty much that way all of my life. Now, whether we -- as a matter of fact, I am almost sure we had something to eat and coffee, because as I remember it the Cabana had a great big restaurant deal, and then they had a lounge area where they served drinks, and if I am right we sat in the restaurant. Here again, I am trying to remember but I can't tell you. I would not take an oath on it. I think that's what it was. Q You said earlier that you didn't talk with Jack Ruby on the day of the assassination, to the best mr-105 0 - 79 - 57 890 of your recollection. A. I have no memory of ever having talked to Jack Ruby other than at his club. Q. Do you remember receiving a phone call from him the day after the assassination? A. That would be on Saturday? 0. Yasqaosaxve A. I have no memory of it. I could have. Maybe that's when we made a date to have dinner that night. Q. Apparently that was, according to the record, one of the possible subjects that you would have discussed because there was some discussion about getting back in touch. Do you remember talking with Jack when he was very upset about the assassination? A. Oh, yes. Very much. At dinner. Q What specifically did he say? A Well, of course, you have it in the original statement probably a little clearer than I can saynitsto bot now, because I have to try to remember. We are going back some fifteen years. I remember that he was definitely very, very perturbed, very much, and he kept repeating, "Tho poor people, those poor people. I am going to do 891 something about it," or, "I should do something about lite? Now, I also knew that he was very perturbed. He had told me about being very upset with his competitor, Weinstein, the Weinstein brothers, because they opened their club Saturday night and he didn't. He kept his closed. And, of course, he made some comments about what money-hungry so and so's they were to open On Saturday night, and when he kept repeating, "Those poor people, those poor people," blah p- blah? «¢6461 assumed he was talking about these people, the Weinsteins and their personnel, and what comment I made about it is -- I don't even remember. Wisaidie "Oh, Jack, it will all wash itself out in the Long ours or whatever. Now, whether he was talking about them Or as what I translated it to later on after he killed Oswald, I began to believe that he was actually talking about were the Kennedy family, Jacqueline and the two kids. I am sure sires are aware of all of this. I knew that he had -- I didn't know. I just assumed that he had adopted them. He visualized this was his family. 892 Do you follow what I'm driving at? And that he had done, Oswald had done, a terrible thing in killing Kennedy and leaving a widow and two fatherless children, and evidently he had appointed himself an avenger for this and for the people of the United States, and for the retidy like that crazy statement he | made that he did it to prove that the Jews had guts, co poet eie Se) Or did you read that? He had mentioned that Jews going through what they have gone through for all these thousands of years and he had to prove that they have guts. That isnot isthe=rnecord: Q. When you had the conversation with Jack Ruby about the assassination, the first conversation was over the phone? A. It could very well be. Q. On the night of the 23rd. A. That would be Saturday. Q. Saturday night. And when you first -- I believe you stated your first impression on having the conversation before the shooting of Oswald was when Jack Ruby was talking about these poor people or those 24 poor people he was talking about the Weinsteins in the 25 sense that, you know, thinking that it was too bad that 893 they had kept their clubs open, and I guess he felt some negative feelings toward them for doing so, and you didn't get the impression that he was speaking of Kennedy family. At least not during the telephone conversation. Was there anything he said during the telephone conversation which, looking back on anything else indicated to you that maybe he was thinking of killing Oswald? A. No, bedd yey you see, the reason I can answer that positively is because we practically went through the same thing Saturday evening at dinner. You know, what else was there to talk about that particular night. And I am sure that if he had said anything that would give me any indication of this kind I certainly would have remembered it. How do I say it? You have to visualize the fact that under no stretch of the imagination could I have ever, and to this day, tie Jack Ruby into some pLot Of this kind. Now, I may be jumping the gun on you, but to this very minute I still believe that it was just an impulse on his part. He didn't know he was going to shoot him until he did. I sincerely believe that. Now, I could be wrong, but that's what I believe. 894 Q. How did he sound when he called you on the night of the 23rd? A. Upset, I guess. Everybody was upset. Q. Did he sound upset to the point of being irrational or was it the kind of upset you would expect, you know, a lot of people -- A. I have to say an upset that I would expe (@'j from a man who just personally went through a tragedy, as we) all didy¥or*-atY least as i* did. Q. Was that telephone conversation the last time you talked to Jack Ruby? A. Prior to the dinner that night. Q. Well, the dinner was the night of the 21st, the night before the assassination. A. Oh, no. No. We had the night after Kennedy was assassinated. 0. Ony Hhes2asrda? A. Right. Kennedy was assassinated on the 230d? Q. The 22nd. A. The? 2nds Jack and I had dinner on the 23rd We also had a dinner date for the 24th, which was Sunday night but he had other plans, evidently. He didn't keep that one. 0. When Ruby called you on the night of the 895 23rd, you said he was upset. You were at your hotel when he called? A. That's the only place he could have got to me, so I would have had to have been at the chote). Q I think the record indicates that you were practically ready for bed? A. Les : Q Do you remember what time of night that would have been? A. Well, it would have been late because -- I would say it would have to be late if I was ready to go to bed. When I say late, I'm talking about somewher about 12:00. Q You said after the assassination you went back to your hotel room. What did you then do like Friday and Saturday? A. Well, you see, I can't get into specifics | because I don't remember. I do know that I went | directly back to the hotel, and I would guess Jean | was there. You did say her name was Jean? Q. Yes. A. I would guess that she was there, and I | switched on the television, either that or she had it =oe 896 on, and all we could see was the various things that were going apropos the assassination, and we never left the hotel. I never left the hotel Friday night that I Camocthibnk of: Q. What did you do Saturday? A. Very little. Just probably stayed around the hotel. Q You watched a lot of television coverage? A. Definitely watched it all day long. There was nothing else on television. L. cowld of, nothing else that I bai have done. Nothing was open. There was no place to go. If I wanted to go to a movie I couldn't have gone. Q. Was Jean West staying with you at-the Cabana? A. eee k, Q. During that time. I checked the record and the record indicates that your contacts with Jack Ruby on the weekend of the assassination consisted of the meeting we talked about the Carousel Club for about an hour Friday night. A. No. That was Thursday night. Q. Thursday night. Excuse me. The 21st. Then a brief get-together at the Cabana. 897 Then on the day of the assassination, Priday. | See you had said that you didn't see Jack Ruby. vf A. I don't remember seeing him. Q The record also indicates that you did not have dinner with Jack Ruby on the 23rd. A. No. Q It indicates only on Saturday the 23rd, the day after the assassination. A. Saturday the 24th. Q. Saturday was the 23rd. Sunday was the 24th. The assassination was on PridagWthe. 22nd, A. Well, I did have dinner with Jack Ruby Saturday at night. i know that. BY MR. HORNBECK: Q. Mr. Meyers, there is a statement that was Purportedly taken by the FBI on the 3rd of December 1963 in Chicago. At this time I am going to have you review that pat enen th and I direct your attention to the first page, which is a rather long paragraph and the second two paragraphs on page two, and if you will just read that statement silently to yourself first, and then we will see whether or not that statement refreshes your memory as to the events and whether or 898 not that statement is accurate. It may not be accurate. A. Allorights (Document handed to the witness.) THE WITNESS: Now, are we concerned primarily with the dates on the statement that you are having me read? BY MR. HORNBECK: 0. Well, we are concerned with the dates and the chronology. According to -= A. Well, you see, then, I am absolutely right. I know I am right. Here, let me read this to you. May I? Q. Certainly. A. All right. This whole big paragraph states my arriving on the night of the 20th, and stayed .-at the Ramada Hotel, which is evidently true, and I checked into the Cabana on the morning of the 2lst, which was Thursday. Right? Q. ConBecbh: A. Then it says that I had gone to the club with Jean West, whose name I just found out from you, was a rather dumb but accommodating broad. 899 And that we had gone by the Carousel Club and returned ed the motel about 11:00 p.m., and that my brother and his wife joined us and Jack either came or was there, and he had a drink with us ahd then he went back to the club because he had -- well, whatever. He stayed only a few minutes before he left, saying he had to return to the club. This is a2ih onpmthe 2hbst: Then it says that " Mr. Meyers stated that his next contact with Jack Ruby was at approximately 10:30 p.m., Saturday, November 23rd, 1963. Ruby telephoned him at the Cabana motel. "He said at that time that Ruby was greatly disturbed, blah, blah, blah." Well, that was when we had dinner at the Cabana motel eS ahd 3 Q What you are saying, Mr. Meyers, according to your testimony”here, you said that you had dinner at the Cabana Saturday night. | A. Absolutely. Q. And the FBI report reflects exactly what you have told us the ennver sation was, that is Abe Weinstein at the Colony Club and that being a very upsetting to Jack Ruby. That entire conversation which the: FBI; has: as telephone actually it took place at a 900 dinner conversation. A. Definitely. We discussed this at dinner. I may have talked to him earlier on the telephone, because the assassination had already taken place and he had already, you know, formed whatever opinions he had, but very definitely the night of Saturday the 24th, whatever that Saturday it was. 0. Saturday the 23rd. A. The 23rd. The night of Saturday the 23rd, Jack and I -- Jack was my guest for dinner there at the Cabana. That is an absolute fact and we certainly discussed this at the dinner. Hell, there was nothing else to talk about, Q. One other statement I would just like to bring to your attention, and I am going to paraphrase the statement, and then I am going to. give it to you for your perusal Eo see whether or not this statement sheds any light on your memory. A. Aru Thon. Q. Tris ‘1s a statanohna again, purportedly taken by the FBI on the 3rd of December 19636 from Jean West, whose correct name, apparently, was Aase, which is A-a-s-e, correct spelling. Paraphrasing. She indicates that on Thursday, the 2lst, November 1963, that after dinner 901 1 | you and Miss West went to the Carousel Club and chatted 2 || briefly with Jack Ruby, that you stayed there 3 approximately one hour and returned to the Cabana at 4 approximately 11:00 p.m., that Jack Ruby joined the 5 party, the group, for a- few minutes and returned to 6 the club. 7 There was no talk about the President and 8 him coming to Dallas. That you and Miss West stayed 9 in Dallas until Monday night, November the 25th; and 10 she did not see Ruby again during that stay, that is, W except for the one time on the 21st, and she stated 12 her contact with Ruby was limited to this one occasion. 13 So I just want to have you examine that \4 statement. 15 As Well, this, what you read to me is very 16 likely, very errr true. 17 Q. Well, the difference would be whether or 4g | not you had dinner -- 9 A. Well, where was she when we had dinner? ‘0 She must have been there with us or stayed in her room. 1 Damned if I know. You see, this particular statement 2 Or any of her contacts if any of the authorities, 3 whether it be the FBI or whoever, I knew nothing about. 4 I knew absolutely nothing about this, j because when we got back from Dallas on that particular 902 trip she went her way and I went mine, and I never saw. her again, anaey haven't seen her since. As I say, I haven't the vaguest idea where the hell she is, or what she did. Now, how and shy,~2 dont Know" and; ctrankly, itt as none of my business, but she made a statement to the FBI. Now, everything that she says here that you read to me is true, to the best of my memory, and the only thing I would question is where the hell was she when we had dinner. Why would I have dinner and not have her. there, in veiw of the fact that they had already met. Q. One other party who was in the area in that general time period was, of course, your brother and his wife. A. Right. Q. There is a statement from your brother Edward on the 5th of December 1963, in which he indicated that he had met Jack Ruby at the Bon Vivant Room at the Cabana about midnight -- A. That's the lounge room, right. Q. -- on November the 2lst, which is consistent with you, Miss West and your brother and his wife, that Jack Ruby went back to his club and that your brother Edward returned to New York via air, 903 November 22nd, 1963, leaving the Dallas Airport early in the afternoon. He did observe President John F. Kennedy's arrival at Dallas at the Dallas Airport. A. Right. ee So that your brother, according to this statement, could not have present Saturday. A. At dinner Saturday night? He wasn't. He was in Dallas, but he was not at the dinner. Q. Well, according to his statement he left A. Wad tt sWaLk towY Oi, are right. You see, I got myself fouled on this thing. Kennedy got here the day before his assassination. That's right. I keep thinking being assassinated that day, but he got here and went to Fort Worth and then came back to Dallas. I assume that's right. I don't know. Now, the only reason -- well, there is no reason, because my brother did not have dinner with me se eee night. lt wassctuet.Jgack, and I.and;this West girl, unless for whatever reason Te told her. toegeteosts fox m few hours. I don't know. Q Well, there's also an indication in the statement that you had planned to have dinner with Jack 904 Sunday evening, the 24th, which, of course, you have testified today. Is there some reason why you would have had dinner two evenings in a row? A. Yes. He was very upset. He was shaken. He was very, very upset about it. I don't know what other word hoga ves. at, and I had a golf date Sunday morning, and ia sada, "Jack let me go keep my golf date and I should be through along about 3:00 or 4:00 and I will come back and showe and we will get together and have dinner Sunday night." He said, "Fine." Q. Could it be that your earlier memory, which is reflected in the FBI report, is better than your memory today? A. Possibly. 0. From the fact that you had planned to have f dinner on Sunday and you were not able to have dinner on Saturday, or is your memory specifically that you definitely had dinner with Jack Ruby Saturday evening? A. Unless I have completely blown my mind we had dinner Saturday night. Q. Well, what we are after, of course, is your best memory, and that's -- A. I cannot visualize my living for 15 years 905 and believing we had dinner Saturday night and not having had it. It just doesn't make sense. Q Let me ask you a couple of other questions that maybe in a roundabout way will help you to refresh your memory. It is clear that you and Miss West arrived On November the 20th. You stayed at the Ramada for tha first evening. Can I ask you when you first met Jean West? A. When did I first meet her? Q When did you first meet her and where? A. I met her, I would venture to say, probably a week or a maximum of two weeks prior to the trip at a club in 20 East Delaware. 0. What was she doing at that time? A Damned if I know. Q What kind of a club was this? A. A lounge. 0. She was working in Chicago? A. I don't know. Q. How did Pan meeting her the week before she agreed to come to Dallas? A. Because she was a party girl. She was a playgirl. 4-105 0 - 79 - 58 7 906 Oh, how would you describe her. She was -- how do you describe a girl like that? She was a semi-professional hooker. Does that make sense? Q. Yes, «ssin.w»,After-this,trip ,that was basically the last time that you saw her? A. To the best of my knowledge I never saw her again. 0. Did she ever mention during the time, the brief time that you knew her, that she had any contacts in New Orleans? A. No. We talked -- really and truly, it is such a difficult thing to put into words. Obviously, I have no idea what your personal life is ieee That's your business, but I was introduced to her at 20 East Delaware by the man who owned the building. And one word led to another and I said --- the way it would normally have happened, I would have said, "Les, I.-am leaving on this,.particqular date for Dallas and I am going to be there for a few days," and either I would have said, “How about taking this character with me," or he would have said, "Why don't you take her with you." And I would have said, if he said that, then I would have said, "Well, is she willing to go?" 907 He would have said, "Sure, she will go," or I would hav said, “Les, if I ask her to go, will she go?" z0uU see, this t*don’ t* know how at developed. Or I would have said, "She looks interestin would she make the trip to Dallas with me if I ask her?" And he probably said, "Hell, yes. Just ask her." And that was it. ol Well, we are not interested in resurrectin your past personal life. There is a particular reason why we would like to know. A. All we talked about, all we could possibly have talked about until the assassination, of course, would have been just nothing. You know, where are you from, where do you live, how are you doing, I am from Minneapolis. Do you know this club on Hanovan Street or this one on whatever street, you know, the type of routine conversation. New Orleans, we may have talked -- she may have told me she was in New Orleans. I just absolutely don't remember. Q. Did you spend much time with her prior to leaving for Dallas? A. No. It couldn't have been more than a few days in between the time I met her until we left. 908 As a matter of fact, it is going to sound nN ridiculous to you, but it may have been the next day, and I just don't remember. a Q. What we are primarily concerned with is Nn whether it was a long or very brief encounter prior to your going to Dallas? MN A. Very brief. Very brief. 0. When you arranged to take her to Dallas did. you *go ‘to: her apartment to,\pick her mp. orm did ishe meet you at the airport? A. To this day I don't have the vaguest idea where she lived. She may have lived in that building. You know, it was a hotel apartment building. 2. Did that particular hotel apartment building have a reputation for party girls staying there? A Yes. At that time. Showgirls. Q. Was the management getting some kind of percentage at all from any activities that the girls were engaged in? A. I would not believe it. Ty would: doubt, it very much. I could not answer positively, but I would doubt, eit. I know the man that owned the building, and, 2 .don'its think: he, was ebhrat .kin dof, mar. 909 0. I take it, then, when you would go to the lounge in that building there would be no arrangement by you or anyone else to pay the owner a certain fee? AL Never. Never. The only thing in that sense that ever happened is that -- you must remember, now, that I had been there a number of times and if on any Vasit cto that lounge, iflivhad any particular reaso to want a room or apartment for that night I would just go direct to the apartment or to the room and pay whatever was the normal rate. In other words, I would sign the register. Q. Is that hotel apartment building still in existence? A. I guess so. It's a big one. 0. I take it you haven't been back there in quite a while? A. No. I haven't been in the place in years. 0. When is the last time you saw the owner, if you can recall? A. About 14 or 15 years ago. Q. His name is Les -- A. Les Barkeee Q. I am not sure that that last series of questions did anything to refresh your memory one way or the other with regard to that Saturday night dinner. 910 A. As far as the girl is concerned it was jus another thing, you know. So I had somebody with me on the trip, and I could think of no earthly reason that I would live for 14 or 15 years knowing that Jack Ruby and I had dinner that Saturday night and all of a sudden realize we didn't. It’s just not rights .Jack N and I met Saturday night. bee) 0. And your memory is, as you sit here, is oO that you.-- A. We had dinner Saturday night, and when he left we talked in terms of meeting again Sunday night. We either left it he would get in touch with me or I would get in touch with him. Q. You had a deposition taken by a gentleman by the name of Burt Griffin during the Warren Commission phase of this investigation? A. Could have been. I thought it was this Arlin Spector. It could have been Griffin, too. I,.donét. knows It could have been, you know sa two of them just like there are two of you here. Q. All right. I am going to read some testimony, and this is testimony that is found in Volume XV of the Warren Commission Report. This is Mr. Griffin's question. This is found at page 631. "Mr. Griffin: 'Now, do you recall what you 911 did on Saturday?' (Mien Meyerses egWelid,: gosh, iI.don!.te knowa- = d+ know I watched television with all of the business until my eyes bugged out of my head both Friday night and all day or most of the day Saturday.' A ""I couldn't have ae ek of any consequence. There was, no, place) .to..go..! “Mr .i,»Gritfins.«-Didsyou-atyany timesdrive down to Daily Plaza or the site of the shooting?' "Mr. Meyers: 'That is possible. Very possible. Highly possible.' "Mr. Griffin: 'Did there come a time on Saturday when you did talk to Jack Ruby?' "Mr. Meyers: '‘'Yes.' "Mr. Griffin: "Where were you at the’ time?' "Mr. Meyers: ‘'In bed.' "Mr. Griffin:.'What is.your best recollection of what time this was?' "Mr. Meyers: '9:00 or 10:00 Saturday night.' "Mr. Griffin: 'How do you happen to fix that time?' "Mr. Meyers: ‘Well, because I was undressed and going to bed, and I wouldn't have gone to bed. ra certainly wouldn't have gone to bed much later than that because there wouldn't have been anything for me 912 to do or anyplace to go. It would have been a case of sitting in the room or driving around in the cary; which I didn't want to do, or sitting in the lobby reading a book, which I didn't want to do.' "'I was in the room in bed, and I am again saying that somewhere, 9:00 or 10:00 that night, a few minutes either way, it is highly possible the phone rang and it was Jack on the phone.'" And there is a paragraph talking about balenads television. "Mr. Griffin: 'About how long did you your telephone conversation with Ruby last Saturday night?' "Mr. Meyers: 'I would say in the neighborhood of 15 to 20 minutes.’ "Mr. Griffin: "About 15 or 20 minutes is a reasonably long telephone call.' "Mr. Meyers: 'It was a reasonably long telephone conversation. I would say possibly 15. minutes.'" Then there is a discussion about what was Said about Dallas and that kind of thing. There is no mention of, again, any dinner On Saturday night, the 23rd. A. Well, maybe I am losing my mind, but I would swear we had dinner Saturday night. 913 Q. Could it be that you are confusing the night of the 21st when you might have had something to eat at the Cabana with your brother Saturday night? A. I don't know. You are really shocking me now, because I just don't believe this. I don't believ that I could be wrong, but if that's what I said in 1963, my memory was certainly a lot fresher in 1963 thaw it. is°in.197 8. Maybe it was Friday night. I don't know. I can't phtnnhs but I can't believe that we didn't have dinner Saturday night. Q May I suggest this, Mr. Meyers, that we will xerox a copy of that portion of testimony. In fact, your entire portion. A I have the Warren Commission report book at home. I will go over it if you want me to. Q Why don't you do that and one of us will be in touch with you by telephone or directly, and we will see whether that refreshes your memory as to the events. A. All right. Believe me, I am thoroughly confused. MR. HORNBECK: Why don't we take a short recess now. (A short recess was taken.) 914 BY, MR o. PURDY4: Q What had you planned to do on Saturday, November the 23rd, during the day if it hadn't been for the assassination? A. Oly} (Ly. dontt.o4 Probably play qoalkf. Q Would you have played golf out in the direction of McKinney, Texas? A. I could have played in McKinney. They have a golf course there. Q. Did you have any business dealings that you were supposed to do on Saturday? A. Not that I can remember. Q. Had you finished your business dealings on Friday? A. Pretty much. Q. You said that you planned to go rend golf in Sherman, Texas. A. Right. Q What day had you planned to go? A. Sunday. Q. That was Sunday you had planned to go? A. Yes. Q Did you go? A. ves. Q And you played golf? 915 A. Yes. The worst game I ever had in my 1Oei Q. Were you playing golf when you found out that Jack Ruby had shot -- A. No. I had already found out ano to ey I found out about it driving up to McKinney. Q. That was after the golf game? A. No. No. You see, I was staying -- let me give it to you so you will have it right for the record. As you know, as your records show, I was staying at the Cabana, and I had a car. I assume I had Lente. Car, I am sure Sherwood didn't lend me a car, and I had made a date with Jim Acklin who is Herb Gibson's brother-in-law who owned the Gibson Stores out of Sherman, Texas. | Sherman, if you are not aware of the geography, is some 20 to 30 miles north of McKinney. McKinney is some 20 miles north of Dallas. I had fine this date probably Thursday or Friday morning with Acklin to play golf, and I had also made a date -- then I told Sherwood Smith that I was going to play golf with Jim Acklin in Sherman Sunday morning, that we had a 10:00 or something tee-of time. And I said that I would stop at his house 916 in McKinney which is on the way to Sherman and have some coffee with him. Well, between Dallas and McKinney, I had the car radio on, and I heard Ruby had killed Oswald. And it just flipped me. What else can I say? Think of a man vou had talked to the night before and he turns around and kills Oswald. Q. What did you do after that? A. Well, I went on to Sherman and I walked into the lounge of the -- we played golf at the Perrin Air Force Base Golf Course. I walked into the lounge, and Jim was there with some friends of his that we were going to' play with. And he looked at me and he said, "What is wrong with you?" My face was green. I must have looked likd something out of the clouds. And I says, "Well, do you have any idea just what happened?" He said, "Yes, we just saw it," you know, "watched itmon telévision.& And I said, "Would you believe I was with that guy last night?" Which convinces me again that I ah We had dinner with the guy Saturday night. I said, "Would you believe that I was with thatoguychast night?" He dsaid, .twha? = And I said, "The nut that killed him." 0. This is Jim Acklin you are talking about? A. Yess Q. How do you spell his last name? A. A-c=k-l-i-n. 0. Is he still alive? A. Yes. He still lives in McKinney -- in Sherman. I can't tell you his address, but he lives there. Well, you know, when I told him that I had been with him or that I knew him, or whatever I said, they obviously wanted me tell them what I could. BMG ol aaid,/ "*What can. TI tell you2* He wanted to know did I still want to play soifvandkd, said;+"Well;-yes,¢let'’sigoroniout,.and_play; tt is better than sitting around and biting my fingernails." So we played golf and when we got through playing I came back. Maybe I stopped in McKinney on the way down. I don't remember, but I know I came back Hon Daltass | 918 0. You came back to the Cabana? A. Les Q. What did you do then? A. Not a damned thing. Q You just stayed there at the hotel? A. Just stayed there. Q. Jean West was there, of course. A. I assume she was. Q. Then you spent that night at the Cabana? A. Sure. 0. What you do the next morning? A Well, I don't know, here again. I know we went home that day. We went back to Chicago, and whether I saw any customers Monday morning or not, I just don't remember. Q Was your original plan to leave Monday for Chicago? A. Here again, I don't remember. I would assume so. | 0. On Sunday did you consider going to the Dallas Police Department about the fact that you had seen Ruby? A. Yes and no. I was going to go and then I talked myself out of it. Q Why did you consider going? 919 A. Well,» don ‘t «know. I sdom' toknow ae7x concerned citizen, I suppose. I had talked to Ruby the day before. 0. Did you think you had some information to provide? A. Just what you have in the report. Nothing beyond that. Q. That is the reason you thought about going. Why did you decide not to go? A. Again, I didn't want to get involved. TorbégingwithPeifnt hadawines PEvVit~had been publicized it would have been in the newspaper and the fact that I was not here alone, I don't think my wife would have appreciated that. So I would have been in a bind and evidently I assumed what I had to tell them wasn't that damned important. Plus ;the, fact that) Io had lost, and for God's sake, don't publicize this, I had lost all respect for the Dallas Police Department. 0. Because of the shooting? A. With what had happened. Both the assassination and the Oswald shooting. As far as I am concerned, the Dallas Polic Department was so stupid on the whole thing. It was 920 —- unreal, but that's not part of your investigation here. Q. You Weak toned earlier that the only thing you knew about Jean West or Jean Aase was that she vated paar came from Minneapolis. You inaicated you met her in the lounge of a building that was on 20 East Delaware in Chicago? A. Thategerioht. Q. What is the name of that building? A 20 East Delaware. Q. That was the name of the building, also? A. Yes. Q. What was the name of the lounge? A. I would think it was the 20 East Delaware Lounge. That is as near as I can remember. It may | have had a name. Q Did Jean West ever have access to okie telephone credit card that weekend? A. Not that I would know of. Q Do you think she was aware of you having it? Did you use it in front of her? A. That's possible. Q. What did Jean West do during that weekend when she wasn't with you? A. I, really don"t know.**®I don't she did much of anything. 921 As far as I know she knew nobody down here. I have no idea what she could have done. Q Did she go sightseeing? A. She would have walked if she did. Q Did she run up any bills? A. Not rtheat I cknow,of: Q Did she mention that she had seen any plac in particular or had seen anyone in particular? A. No. Q. Prior to your leaving with Miss West for || Dallas did you call her long distance from the office that Wednesday morning,-which would have been Wednesday the 20th? A. Well, I don't know. I don't remember having called her. Ti-don!tsknow’ why T'would,.because I “would assume she was still living in Chicago, unless she had gone to Minneapolis and I called her there. I don't remember. No recollection at all. Q. Did anyone else that you knew know her? A. No. Q. Did you ever know David Fairey? A. No. I know dito “4a are talking about. I read about him. Did you know whether or not Jean West knew 0. him? 922 I would be very surprised if she did. Do you know Nofio Pecora? Who? Nofio Pecora, P-e-c-o-r-a? No. Did you know Guy Bannister? No. Did you know G. Ray Gill? No. A New Orleans attorney? No. Were you ever contacted by Jim Garrison? No. Or any of his representatives? A. (Shakes head.) Q Did you ever have any contacts with anyone associated with any anti-Cuban or anti-Castro groups? A. No. On, Did you pay the expenses of Jean West on the trip? Sure. You said that was your last contact with her? A. The last time I saw her and talked to her was when we got back to Chicago. 923 0. Did you know that she made plans, made | arrangements with Joyce McDonald to go shopping with : her that weekend? A. I didn't even know that she knew Joyce McDonald. Q. So, then, you wouldn't know why she ‘cancelled the plans? A. No way, unless -- no, she couldn't have been because it wasn't that time unless she was with “Tle at the time I went out to the State Fair to Joyce mcDOnald, but that was not at that time. I don't how she possible could have been. Q That was.on a previous visit in October? A. The Joyce McDonald thing. 0. Right. What was Jean West doing at the ‘time of the assassination? A. I would guess she was in the hotel. don't know where she was. I left her there when I ‘left. I didn't take her along with me when I went out to call on, customers. 0 Was Ralph Meyers staying at the Cabana ‘the weekend of the assassination? A. Ralph Meyers was in Mexico City. 2 ° And he hadn't come to Dallas during that time? 924 A. NO way. 0. What is Ralph Meyers' middle name? A. Lynn. Lay =i. You are speaking of my son? Q. I believe so. A. Oh, yes. Q Did you know another Meyers who was stayine at the Cabana? A. No. Q. Did you receive any phone calls or messages for someone else? A. If ft did, I don't remember it. Q. Where was Ralph Meyers staying in Mexico City? A. Well, he lived there. It's his home. I think at that time he lived ona ee oe called, as they say down there, Jaime Sullivan. James Sullivan. Are you familiar with Mexico City, either one of you? He was working for a newspaper. Ralovh is a journalist. *, 0. Was he at that time still working ona job that required the security clearance that he had? A. Ralph? Q. Yes. 925 A. I wouldn't think so, not in Mexico. Now, he had a security clearance because when he was in the Army -- I guess you have that information. Q. Yes. A. I assume you do. He was in the ASA. Q When did he terminate that work? A. When he was discharged from the Army. Q. What year was that? |- A. I can't remember. Q. Was that before 19690 or -- A. Yes. Let me see if I can go back chronologically. Ralph was born in 1937. He was 18 when | he got out of high school, which would have made it Pe5oaH -nRight? MR. HORNBECK: (55 crHeuwas bern.in-?) 3%. . THE WITNESS: '55. Right. Then he went to the University of Illinois for almost three years, | which would put it right around 1958. Then he joined the Army, and he was sent the Presidio at Monterey, California to an operation | to the Army Language School where he -- he was a || called and when he got through that -~- of course, Russian, a he got his clearance. He was in : the Army | that's where 926 Security Agency setup. I think he spent four years in the Army, which would put it about 1962, and he spent the last two years of his Army time in Turkey. As he described it, an anthill outside of Ankara monitoring Russian propaganda. Then he came back to the states, came back home. You would have to ask him, really. Lt dont remember, but I think he came back to Chicago, and he spent a year in Chicago driving a city bus. I could have it backwards. Then he went to Mexico. Q. Where was your daughter, Vicki Meyers, working in 1963? A. Oh, here again, I will have to go back. Vicki was married -- she is a year younger than Ralph. She is a year younger. She was born in 1938. Now, when the heck did she get married. I think Vicki was married at that time. No. She was See eS in December of 1963, December the 15th of 1963, and at the time prior to her marriage she was a student at the University of Puerto Rico. Vicki had gotten her masters from the University of Wisconsin, and she was at some university in Puerto Rico on what they -- what did ‘they call it, a 927 grant? You are probably more familiar with it than I am. Her field was engineering chemistry. She meer Married’ December “the 15th of 1963, and for a year Or so -- here again you will have to get the exact figures -- she worked ‘for the Nuclear Energy Operation outside of Chicago, suburban Chicago. I would know the name if you mentioned it but I can't remember it. She had all kinds of security clearances, ‘and she and Martin -- her husband is a professor of physics at Northwestern. They were married, and then not too long after that, I would guess, maybe a year or two, Martin was invited to lecture for a year at Leeds University in Leeds, England. They went there, and my first granddaughte was born there. At the end of the year or a little longer, they went though the summer vacation and they Came back to the Chicago area and they lived in a “4 ‘suburb of Chicago called Skokie. And they had another little girl about a year after that, and that's all she has done since then. She lives in suburban Chicago now. Q. Let me ask you this: Regarding your brother and your communicatijon each other, the fact that you would be ivy Detlas, I to 928 think you said that there had been a Phone call. One of you called the other to let you know that you would be in Dallas around the same time; do you remember that? A. Evidently, yes. One of us -- what could have happened -- now, here again, remember I lived in Chicago at that time and Eddie lived in Brooklyn, as he always has. I could have easily called Eddie and told him I had planned to be in Dallas the latter part of November. | He could have said, "Well, that's great because I am going to a bottlers convention in November," on whatever the day was, "and we can meet there." Or it could have been the other way around. He could have told me that he was going bo be in Dallas at that time in November. As far as my work is concerned I could make a trip to Dallas anytime I wanted to. I always had a reason to come, business- wise, and I could have said, “Well, Eddie,” that's fine: I will try to meet you there." 0. What was VOUFEMOSt recent contace wlen your brother prior to your visit in Dallas? A. Prior to the visit to Dallas? 929 Q Yes. I guess it would have been the phone A. Either that or I could have gone to mai York City on some occassion. , * . | | Q Do you remember being in New York in early Msvenber 1963? A. I have no recollection. [Soul d havesss I don't remember. Q Did you have some business purposes that ‘might have brought you there? A. I could have gone to New York City on business or I could have gone to New York City on famil paffairs. | I also have two sisters who live in the 'New York City area. | Q Does it refresh your recollection to know }that your brother Edward left from Mexico about | november th3 8th? Did you see him shortly before he left, do you remember? A. Peverlan“t.*ehink. so: reyust aon". Simember. I would have no reason, you know, specifically Jto see him unless I was going to New York City on business. Q. As far as you know the only reason that Jyour brother went to Dallas was for this bottlers 930 convention? A. Oh, definitely. 0. Was the convention hotel the Adolphus? A. I think so. They stayed at the Adolphus. I would assume they stayed where the headquarters of the convention was. You also have the information, I am sure you do, the reason they went to Mexico was to visit his wife's sister who lived in Mexico -- still lives in Mexico City. 0. What does she do in Mexico City? A. She is a widow. She does nothing. Q. What is her name? A. Her first name is Edith. Damned if I can remember. I can't remember her last name. This is my brother's wife's sister. Her husband died some 10 or 12 years ago. Her husband's name was Carl Wellman, W-e-l-l-ma-an. She is Mrs. Carl Wellman, or as they would have it in the local phone directory there, Mrs. Carlos Wellman. | Q. One question I forgot to Squeene up on before. You had said that one of the reasons you left the Ero company was because of the financial 931 i J b | Situation of that company and your financial Situation, : you were in debt. Who were you in debt to? A. To whom was I in debt? Q wes IS Dv: A. Oh, to a number of people. TO aman who - ; I can't even remember the name of the damned company he worked for. I can't remember his name. I owed him | in the area of seven or $8,000.00. i 0. How did that debt arise? A. We had a stock transaction deal that was very wrong on my part, and I paid him back the money that went bad. Q Who else did you owe money to? A. I owed Les Barker. Q How much money? A. About $3,000.00. Q What was that for? A. The same thing. Q. A different deal or -- A No, the same stock transaction deal that went haywire, and I paid him back. That Us-itt- I paid “them ‘back so many dollars per month. 9o2. BY MR. HORNBECK: 0. I take it that none of these debts were occasioned by any gambling losses of any sort? A. Obie noe Q During the time that you knew Jack Ruby did you ever know him to gamble in sports events or any other kinds of events? A. No. Q Did he ever discuss gambling or betting in the Dallas area? A. (Shakes head.) Q. Did he ever discuss any gambling or racketeering elements in Chicago that he knew or did business with? A. Oh, to a degree. To this degree: he was telling me about his childhood in Chicago, his ena: and again I assume you have all of this information. He lived on the west side of Chicago, which at that time, and probably still is, I guess, a very poor neighborhood, and his parents were immigrants} and had few opportunities. And he grew up in an atmosphere of, well, as they used to describe in on the east side of New York City, you either became a judge or you became a Sing-Sing inmate, one or the Ofners 933 And I think -- well, as he described At; most of the people he contacted he knew as a kid were <- well, call them in the hoodlum area, and he gravitated to this kind of thing. And that his way of making a dollar or two in those days was hustling tickets for sporting events, fights or hockey games, | Or whatever. Q Scalping? A. Scalping. And it may be -- I have a vague -srecollection that he said something about being a runner for somebody in the numbers racket, that type of thing. But on the very, very fringe of racketeering, I guess is what you would call it. Q. Did he ever discuss with you, or did you ever hear the story that he left Chicago to go to Dallas in approximately 1947 because he was indebted to the syndicate in Chicago and was forced out of that area? A. Well. That is verv, very much news to me. Q Did he ever discuss with you or have you heard that the union that Jack was associated with in Chicago had their president shot and killed just prior to the time that Jack Ruby left Chicago? A. This is also something that is the first 'time I have heard it. 934 _ Q. Would you describe Jack Ruby as a name- dropper kind of person? A. Well, let me sort of answer you in a little different way. May I? A. Sure. a A. Jack Ruby had absolutely no education of any kind. I don't even know whether he graduated co from grammar school. I really don't know. He had the most atrocious taste in clothes, to me. He would wear pinstripe clothes almost all of the time. I think that's because of the pictures of the racketeers are always in pinstripe clothes. He wanted very much to upgrade himself-socially. \Calturalty.. . Maybe’ that°4s ia better way to state it. Therefore, whenever he met anybody who could read, write and speak English fluently, why, these people became his friends, if they would let him be his friend. And I think he would name-drop. Here again, I can't remember the names he would drop, but if he dropped any names to me it would always have to be people who were on a social strata he would ieKke*’ to, bes 935 Now, whether it was in a racketeering sense or mot, you know, like people would say, "Well, I knew Al Capone," you know. if Ne sald Tt-‘tharway, 21 don't know. He was a man of extremes. Now, you know, there many people that you know in your life, all three of you have met people in your life whom you either liked or disliked. They have just not made | enough of an impression on you either way. So, if they jrare around, fine, and if they are not around it is just as fine. It doesn't make any difference. My memory of Jack is he either liked you or he disliked you. There was no inbetween with Jack Ruby. He was a man of violent temperament. | we had talked about this Jada. He threw her down a | flight of seSOS: He could have killed her. Do you | have any idea how long those steps were in the Carousel Club? Then again I would see him get down on his hands HOE knees with a bottle of milk and feed a feed his dog, just like a mother would feed her ae baby. is a hard man to describe. Again, I He speak from my personal opinion. I think he can only 936 was a nut. I don't think he knew he was going to shoot him until he did it. He always carried a gun. I .think.sy.aur,, records will show that. He always carried a gun, and the main reason he always carried a gun, as far as I am concerned, ——————————————— is that whenever he closed the club he would take the money out with him. Q. You saW him personally do this on several occasions? A. Oh,. yes.4\He’ carried sa igqunva kl tehesstime. He put his money in a little bag in the trunk of his a7. Q. Was that because he didn't believe in banks or was there -- A He either didn't believe in banks or had no safe to leave it in at the club. I don't know why he dads ee BY: MR. .PURDY: Q Did you see the gun? A. 1 think so.~+ T would thi nee Q. Was there anything unusual about the particular gun? A. No. It was not a Luger or anything like that. It was a typical revolver. Q. Was there anything unusual about the 937 hammer of the gun? A. NOt wehatis b alcn.om, pote 0. Was there a shroud over the hammer? A. L sdGn't know. I have never seen it that eLose. Again, you know, I guess I am sounding like a broken record. I think that he went into that garage, and I don't think anybody stopped him because he was a very familiar face, and as I said before the 10 Dallas Police Department in those days was not overly a bright, and they brought Oswald out and he had a sneer Or leer or whatever on his face. aes I think Ruby just decided all of a sudden he was going to be the avenger, and he shot him. Now, I think one day my great-great- grandchildren will be worrying about what the hell happened, too. I saw a movie the other night where they were trying to determine whether John Wilkes Booth was the se who really killed Lincoln. Did you see it on television the other night? MR. HORNBECK: Loeaion’ tee 21 t: BY MR. HORNBECK: Q. Mr. Meyers, just one very brief area. 938 A. Sure. Edward still have his 0. Does your brother bottling company? yes. He doesn't have a bottling A. Oh, company. Q What exactly is that? a distributor. You see, Pepsi Cola A. He is where they do not do their own distributing has a setup City area, but they sell their product in the New York to distributors who have franchise territories. In other words, only this particular distributor can distribute Pepsi Cola and its products given area. And Eddie has, oh, I don't know, in this four or five franchises. Q, Approximately how many employees does he have working for him, or did he have in 1963? A. At that time, I guess, about the same as he has today. He has got, let's say, four trucks, so he probably has about eight or ten people working for him. Q. Are they union drivers? A. Oh, definitely. A very strong union. Q. Did he ever have any problem with the ——___________ ee union in. the 1960's? A. No. As a matter of fact, he has commented, 939 has talked about it. AS a matter of fact, rather recently he has commented tna his drivers have been with him for many, many years and he has had no problems. MR. HORNBECK: TI have no further questions. Q. Would you like to avail yourself of the Opportunity now to make any comments, to put anything you have said into context? A. No. I have just said about anything I hav to say. I am sure that even what I was commenting after you had Stopped there -- 1 don't mean when it was off the record. I mean now when we were talking that you have taken down everything I have said about my personal feelings in this. BY MR. HORNBECK: 0. I did want to ask you one thing. You mentioned you played you Played golf with Mr. Campisi the Other day. A. Yes. Q. Is that frequent? A. No. I said I played with him. Let me make that a little clearer. I did not play with hin. We were not on the same foursome. We were in the same tournament. 940 a Are you speaking acquaintances, first No name -- No. Just if I see him, to say hello, and A. hello, but we are not at aif P¥tendry.- 14300 he will say mean this in any nasty sense to him or to me. I don't We have just never had occasion to be friendly. Campisi has, obviously, been in Dallas for many, many years, and I have only been here for 14 years. MR. HORNBECK: Thank you very much. (Whereupon the deposition concluded at 5:30 p.m.) 4444:05"9] BOF 941 I, GARLIN ATTAWAY, a Notary Public in and for Harris County, Texas, being the Notary Public before whom the aforegoing sworn testimony of LAWRENCE VICTOR MEYERS was taken, do hereby certify that the witness was first duly sworn by me to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that the above and foregoing is a true and correct transcript of Said testimony. Given under My hand and seal of office on this the R722 day of May, 1978. Garlin Attaway, Notary Dee in and for Harris County, Texas | 942 xi. Leonard Patrick Biographical Summary o, (1195) Leonard Patrick was born on October 6, 1913, in Chicagrd Ill, and resided there his entire life.(1 879) He attend ed Shepha Grammar School, located at Fillmore and Francisco Streets, in Chi- cago. After completing the seventh grade, he left school and worked as a delivery boy. (1880) (1196) On June 28, 1938, Patrick received a 10-year sentence for robbing a bank in Culver, Ind. (1881) His codefendants in the bank robbery had been his brother, Jack Patrick, Edward Murphy, John Gray and John Davis. (1882) He went to the Indiana State Reforma- tory on June 28, 1983. (1883) On February 22, 1933, he was transferred to the Indiana State Penitentiary. (1884) Patrick was paroled on Mareh 11, 1940. His sponsor was E. Szontagh from Chicago, (1885 ) Patrick was to reside with Dave Kovin in Chicago; he worked for the R. D. Kane Co. (1886) (1197) On September 10, 1975, Patrick was convicted of contempt of court for his refusal to testify under a grant of immunity against a Chicago police lieutenant accused of income tax evasion. (1887) As of July 1978, Patrick had served 21 months of a 4-year sentence (1888) and on July 3, 1978, he was released and placed under the supervision of a halfway house. (1889) (1198) Patrick’s known aliases have been Pete Leonardi, Lenny Patrick, Lennie Patrick, Joseph Cohen, Leonard Levine and ‘Blinkey.” | (1199) When Patrick was interviewed by FBI agents on September 10, 1948, he stated that he and his brother, Jack, operated the New Lawndale Restaurant at 3714 West Roosevelt Road, Chicago, Lie (1890) He and his brother had had a part interest in this restaurant for over 2 years, and they had recently purchased the remaining out- standing interest from Sid Libby. (7891) Previous to his association with the New Lawndale Restaurant, Patrick was employed as a house- ae 3)the Arcade Restaurant located at Kedzie and Roosevelt Roads. (1200) In 1954, it was reported that Patrick had been employed as a salesman for an unnamed business. (1893) During 1956, he reportedly ae employed as a salaried freelance salesman for Club Specialty, (sae. 594) selling plastic specialty items to advertising businesses. ale In June 1957, an FBI informant advised that Patrick and ay i Yaras had purchased a bathhouse on North Avenue.(1896) This ee Hanon was operated as a bathhouse open to the public, but also ice os BA ee A gambling on the upper floors. (1897) sti Rar ee 957, Patrick was employed by Irving Kaufman, ae aa ) is Irv Sales Co., at a salary of $150 per week. (1898) TARE ae pee be tommy a “watch service.” His identity reports. 201 mately bina Sse nsGhi (1899) n ge and Chicago on emplo yees its vicinit y, callingae in his (1203) During the late 1950’s d with the Reliable Products Co. Patrick may have also been involve (1900) , 3328 Roosevelt Road, Chicago. 943 The company is listed officially Patrick’s brother. (1901 ) in the name of Jack Patrick, Leo nard (1204) On July 17, 1958, the FBI interviewed Louis Hennick, who was the day manager and Leonar In 1960, an informant advised d Patrick, the night manager. that both Jack and Leonard (1902) were still “connected” with the Patrick hotel and that it was still “front ed” by (1205) In 1959, an FBI inform had an interest in several] nort ant advised that he had heard Patrick which was the Black Angus Rest hside restaurants in Chicago, one of (1206) OnJ anuary 1, 1963, it aurant, (1904) was reported to the FBI that Patr ick an associate that Patrick was con form Co.(1900) in which Dav nected with the A~-1 Industrial Unj- e (1207) In 1964, it was reportedYaras also owned an interest. (1.907) “Red” Larner were partners in to the FBI that Patrick and the Venocoa Music Co.(2908) H also reported that Patrick and Larner were attempting to pur It was City Music Co. (1909) chase the Treatment by Warren Com mission (1208 ) Leonard Patrick was not called to testify before the Warren agents interviewed him.(1970) hot show whether Patrick was The FBI report is very brief and does association with Ruby. (79/7) questioned thoroughly regard ing his (1209) The Warren Report stat es that “virtually all of Ruby’s Chi- criminals have denied any _ Patrick’s FBI interview. The such liaison.” (7974) Again one cite is report concludes by stating that “Ruby » (1210) In 1958 it was reported listed Patrick among the that the U.S. attorney in Chicag o Patrick was described as havprining cipal hoodlums in Chicago. (797 6) books, along with Sam Battagli supervision of the West Side hand- Patrick was included on a list a and William Block.(7917) In 1960 ‘Supervisors. (7978) He was desc of syndicate gambling “fixers” and ribed as a: * * * west side gunman who seiz Rogers Park 4 years ago. Patrick ed control of gambling in side’s 24th Ward where he “en learned his trade in the west portedlv, the murders of gamblegineered” the muscle and, re- cate. (7919) rs opposing the crime syndi- 944 : 62, Federal Bureau of Narcotics memo- "etaitstates that tinea echelo i the upper ago’s organi chelon n in Chicag ae zed crime Nene was randum urray mposed of Anthony Accardo, Frank Ferraro, Gus Alex, Ross Prio, n was compo sed of i aohe 's.(1920) ‘The second echelo illegal sistnoted supervised “general overall gambling and otheres step operations on Chicago’s north side,” Philli p Cerone , Sr., Chanl lia, letti, Ralph Pierce, James Allegretti, J oseph Aiuppa, Sam Battag Marsh all Caifa no, Franci s J. Curry, and Leona rd Patri ck. (192) Patrick was described as “having diversified responsibilities of gam- bling activities in the Summerdale and Rogers Park districts under Ross Prio.” (1922 * (1212) A Guienyo Crime Commission memorandum, dated Novem- ber 10, 1947, reported that Patrick was formerly employed in a hand- book operation at 8613 West Roosevelt Road and was the owner of a tavern at 3166 Ogden Avenue.(/923) A handbook allegedly was op- erated in the back of this tavern.(1924) Patrick was also said to be associated with poker games that were operated there.(1926) (1213) On February 26, 1958, a Chicago FBI informant advised Patrick operated a “50-50 book in 1948 and 1949.” (1926) The book was operated in a barbershop at 330 West Roosevelt, on oe?) Th were rick at the New Lawndale restaurant. e in- hana Phat Tiss a a PullSSeRle hard cardbook being op- erated” at the New Lawndale restaurant and that Patrick had the area from Kedzie to Cicero and from Madison South to Yee enh Son ‘oul a book ortak any bets unless he nad the “Ole” from Pateick 17929) vcoandiieeeanis irifodmarits dur- ing this period Patrick’s lieutenants were William Block and Dave Yaras. (1930) : (1214) Sometime during this period, Patrick attempted to Ha bet the area of Broadway, Diversey and Belmont, which was operated by Rocco Fischetti. (7937) According to the informant, three of Patrick’s “muscle,” Narti Potski, “Little Sneeze” Friedman, and one other, were killed in the New Lawndale restaurant, ostensibly for robbing books but actually because of their association with Patrick. (7932) The 1in- formant believed that the dispute between Patrick and Fischetti was arbitrated by Anthony Accardo. (1933) (1215) The Chicago Crime Commission files also included a Chicago Tribune article, dated May 6, 1952, concerning the murder of David Zatz, who was found shot to death in the trunk of a car on May 5, 1952.(7934) It was reported that Zatz operated a handbook and was nown as a “syndicate front” for Dave Yaras and Leonard Pat- rick.(1935) Yaras and Patrick were described in this article as “the gang’s representatives under the rule of Marshall (1216) In May 1955, a Chicago Crime CommissiCaifa no.” (1936) on memorandum reported that a handbo ok operated at the Black Angus Restaurant th rick, managed (1937 ) In by1955, Eugene Luffman, who acted as a “front” for Pat- an FBI informant advised that another “book place” was located at Sol Sleisenter’s* Furniture Store on Roosevelt Road, which allegedly belonged to another collected for this operation. (1938 individual, but Patrick ) ee : *Correct spelling unknown. 945 (1217) In 1958, it was rep the Roosevelt Avenue area orted that Yaras and Patrick controlled at Roosevelt and Independe and that their headquarters were located Patrick was also alleged nce Boulevard. (1939) In the late 1950's, to establishments, in adaition be operating several other bookmakin (1218) In 1962, an FBI to those previously mentioned. (1940) handbook operations curreninformant advised that one of the largest at the New Lawndale Res tly being operated in Chicago was located tau by Patrick and Yaras. (1941) rant and controlled for organized crime It was reported in 1963 tha t Patrick was a side of Chicago. (1942) In Henneck operated out of 1964, it was reported to the FBI that Lou for Patrick. (L943 the Top Hat Inn and ran all of the “books” (1219) A 1971 FBI rep ort states that Patrick con trolled gambling new Federal gambling asked about “bookmaking,legisiation.(J944) In -his deposition, when about these activities, (19 ” Patrick indicated he was knowledgeable 45) (1220) In 1946, the Chi Patrick “are reported to cago FBI office was told that Yaras and dicate’.” (7946) It was als be the ‘torpedoes’ or the killers for the ‘syn- o reported that Patrick may have had a part (1221) The records of on June 24, 1946, James the Chicago police department indicate that M. Ragen, Sr., was shot by unknown persons witnesses to the Shooting. 22, 1947, stated that Luc An article in the Chicago Sun, dated August fore the grand Jury ius Davidson, a newsboy who had testif Block as the man who on the Ragen murder, identified a picture ied another weapon, and fired the Shots, Yaras as of the man kneeling with ‘article also stated tha Patrick as the driver of the truck.(7950) testimony. (1951) t the other two witnes The ses had changed the K(1223) On April 3, ir Patrick was quashed 194 7, the indictment agains by Chief Justice Harold t Block, Yaras, and court. (1952) G. Ward in criminal (1224) In October 194 Suspended police office 7, Captain Connelly and Lieutenant Drury, rs, and Yaras were responsibstated that it was alleged that Patrick, Block, Coast racketeer with rep le for the killing of “Bugsy” Seigel, a west ort ~Y were suspected becaus ed connections to the Chicago syndicate. Seigel. (7 953) e of the modus operandi used in shooting (1225) On Septembe gents regarding the rga10, 1948, Patrick was interviewed by FBI Sneeze” Friedman and ngland killings of Norton Polsky, “Little Harry “The Horse” Kro tish.(1954) Patrick 946 use three men had been killed beca stated it was his opinion that sallof handbooks and gambling houses. they were engaged in robberie a “close personal friend” of these (1955) He considered himself at individuals. (1956) d January 9, 1953, concerning the (1226) A Daily News article, daterted that the police were seeking slaying of Milton Glickman, repo the slaying.(1957) In November Patrick for questioning concerning hired gunmen ick and Yaras were 1955, an informant advised that Patrorld. (1958) and killers for the Chi cag o und erw o Alderman Benjamin F. Lewis (1227) On February 18, 1963, Chicag1964, an informant advised that was found shot to death. In April d in which Lewis was slain. Patrick and Yaras controlled the war was slain because he was not (1959) It was also reported that Lewis in Chicago. (1960) cooperating with the criminal element y 3, 1963, an informant advised (1228) Activities in 1963.—On Januar ng and “juice” operations im that Patrick continued to control gambli 1) On February 27, 1963, the the Lawndale district of Chicago.(196 Police Department advised organized crime division of the Chicago e room continued to operate they had received informat ion that a hors rumored that Patrick at the New Lawndale Restaurant. (1962) It wasr able to prove a con- ran the operation, but the police were neve nect ion. (196 3) on March 3, 1963, Lenny (1229) An F BI informant advised that ngold, and Joe Aiuppa Patrick, Jack Patrick, Hy Godfrey, Fifke Cor — were present at the Luxor Bat hs in Chi cag o. (1964) The informant occasions as a advised that the Luxor Baths was used on frequent 5) meeting place for known Chicag o synd icat e memb ers. (196 Mar ch 20, 1963 , an FBI inf orm ant advi sed that Patrick (1230) On Chic ago. (1966) was no longer in control of the Fil mor e Dist rict in ndale Res- On April 2, 1963, the Chicago police raided the New Law ormant inf taurant wire room and arrested several people. (1967) An sed on May 10, 1963 , that he had rece ntly lear ned that the Four advi nue , was Patr ick’ s “pla ce.” (1968 )et Duces Lounge, 2222 West Devon Ave Patr ick (123 1) An FBI info rman t advi sed on Aug ust 9, 1963 that has been moving well toward the top of the Chi cag o crim inal or- ganization and might be a replacement for Gus Alex, who appears to be working for power because of the contacts he has made without advising other members of the organization.” (1969) In November 1963, an informant advised that in September aes cer was nestng othe Mark EoD oe :ee Louis Tom Dragna wn Ni foes his son Ronald, eal ee a Cosa Nidukeata. (197 0) Dragna was described as an underboss of Ithas aeciedll rain ihe, Th sa Nostra in the Los Angeles area. (1971) the sinfo g toweek rmant, a second meeting of the same groupe was held several later.(/972) Ernest inves, a LoLos Angeleod s County | supervisor-and . clos a.class frie + e friend of a major California officeholder, was % :erie Y.present. (1973) © v6 ° 200 : , aa, Detente, Mike Detente md yon oe eae sehr that tse Dedlonane aa Patrick and andWill31.ie 1963. errs for oe keille fit.eL don theaes“outRe eD4) aCn ” (197 October 30 informant advised that the three “juice men”. in the1e ChicChi ago ares were! Fiore dndaloy » Luo, & chief Allegretti and Lennie Patrick.(1975) Ts er® Tana 947 (1234) Other illegal activities—Chicago Crime ords contain a letter to the police commissioner, Commission rec- in which it was reported that a commercial bingo dated March 29, 1955, game was operated at 8242 West Roosevelt Road and was allegedly trolled by Patrick.(1976) On April 30, 1959, an FBI operated and con- vised that the bingo operation had been “going stron informant ad- was operated by Lenny and Jack Patrick. (1977 g” for years and ) (1235) —On December 19, 1957, an FBI informant Patrick was engaged in the short-term usury (shyl advised that ocking) known as “6 for 5” on August 6, 1958. (7978) The informant advis _ 6 or 7 years ago, Harry Levine was working in Chica ed that about and was associated with Lenny Patrick, Jack go as a shylock Patrick and Dave Yaras.(1979) Levine started the Reliable Products _ asa front for shylocking. About 3 years ago (1954) novelty business , Levine left Chi- cago, and Reliable Products went bankrupt about 6 months later. (1980) The informant also advised that about 3 years Mule” (possibly Ruby Wolfar) and “Solly,” a cab ago “Ruby the driver, took over the shylocking business. It was the informant’s opini working for Jack and Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras. on they were (1236) (1981) —The Chicago Crime Commission records include an from the Chicago Tribune, dated J anuary 19, 1955, article policy gambling racket.(7982) The article repor concerning the ted side of Chicago, the “Syndicate” had four reprethat on the west senta Giancana and Marshall Caifano, at the top, with two tives—Sam William Block and Lennie Patrick.(7983) There underlings, was also a memo- -Tandum, dated October 2, 1950, reporting that anony mous had been received that Patrick, Yaras and Block were information the “lottery jars” flooding the 35th Police District. in control of (1984) On March 17, 1958, an informant advised that Patrick was affilia Frabotta. (1985 ) According to the informant, when ted with Albert the Chicago mob “entered the policy racket, Patrick allegedly parti cipated in the kid- napping of the Jones brothers, “Negro kingpins of the policy racket “In the 1940’s.” (7986) . (1237) _—In November 1955, an informant advised that Louis ‘nick had been taking baseball bets for Patrick and Dave Hen- Yaras, under the direct supervision of Jack Patrick, for the past 5 years. (1987 ) In 1958, it was reported that Patrick and Yaras forced John Canna Tepresentative of a group of persons who placed large tta, a bets on football '8ames and other sports with Chicago bookmakers, to “lay-off” all of his bets with their office in Chicago. (7988) (1238) —In 1946, it was reported that Patrick had a 25-percent in- terest in the black jack game at a gambling place located at 3613 West Roosevelt Road. (1989) In an interview on September 10, 1948, Patrick admitted that a poker game was operating out of the New Lawndale ‘Nestaurant.(7990) The Chicago Police Department advis April 15, 1949, Patrick, Block and Yaras were operating ed that as of a “Canadian oker game” at the New Lawndale Restaurant 2 nights a week. (7997) A Crime Commission memorandum, dated June 22, 1956, reported that + “commercial poker” game was held in the rear of a restaurant, ilegedly owned by Patrick, which was located at North Avenue. (1992) western 1239) —In 1958, it was reported that Patrick was involved in shake- “Own activities with supermarkets and home impro vement busi- 948 nesses.(7993) There was also some indication that Patrick was in- volved in prostitution.(7994) A 1966 report states that in November 1969 Patrick was believed to be the largest dealer of narcotics on the west side.(7995) Patrick’s supplier was named as Fred Morrelli, who owned Century Music Co. (1996) (1240) Other meetings and connections involving organized crime.— The Chicago Crime Commission records include a memorandum, dated February 13, 1953, which reported : * * * that information was received that Leonard Patrick, Dave Yaras, and Joe Massei, the latter formerly of Detroit, had been operating the Sans Souci gambling establishment in Havana, Cuba. (1997) (1241) An FBI informant advised that Patrick had been in constant telephone contact with Dave Yaras from September 1957 to May 1959(1998) On March 12, 1958, a Chicago informant advised that Patrick “was very close” to Yaras, who was described as “a Chicago hoodlum who had a great power in the underworld on the west side of Chicago.” (1999) On January 18, 1958, a different FBI informant advised that Dave Yaras and Leonard Patrick “were very closely asso- ciated even though Yaras was residing in Miami Beach.” (2000) Rec- ords of the Chicago police department reflect Yaras had been arrested 28 times from 1933 to 1947, “mostly for general principles, disorderly conduct, and investigation.” (2001) | (1242) On December 27, 1961, an FBI informant advised that Pat- rick was in constant contact with Sam Giancana. Patrick allegedly related to Giancana that he was to receive $10,000 from some unnamed venture, when he should have been receiving $30,000. (2002) (1243) Other organized crime and criminal figures listed in an FBI report as Patrick’s associates are James Allegretti, Phil Alderisio, Morris Saletko, William E. Block, and Marshall Caifano. (2003) Association With Ruby (1244) Patrick was interviewed by the FBI on November 25, 1963, as a result of information received by the FBI to the effect that Patrick ran Ruby out of Chicago.(2004) According to the FBI interview report, Patrick said he had known Ruby as a “neighborhood chum, who was about 2 years older than Patrick.” (2005) They both attended Shephard Grammar School, but were not close friends.(2006) Ac- cording to the FBI report, Patrick “frequently saw Rubenstein in the neighborhood and always spoke with him, as did everyone else who grew up in the West Side.” (2007) (1245) The FBI report states that upon his release from prison in 1940, Patrick “heard that Ruby had been involved in the investigation into the murder of Leon Cooke, but had been cleared.” (2008) Patrick on that this investigation was the reason Rubenstein left Chicago.” 2009 (1246) Patrick claimed he knew nothing about Ruby until after the war, when Ruby was selling premium items with his brother, whose name Patrick could not recall.(20/0) According to the FBI report, Patrick stated “he was certain Rubenstein had never operated a book or had anything else to do with any racket.”(201/) Patrick also 949 stated, according to the FBI report, that vestigate, you'll never learn nothing, as “no matter how much you in- he had nothing to do with nothing.” (2012) (1247) Patrick denied having anything to do with stein out of Chicago after World War TI and running Ruben- something better elsewhere.” (2013) The said Ruby “just found FBI report states that: Patrick said if Rubenstein had any racket he have left Chicago, and said further if Ruben would never run out of town he would never have retur stein had been ned periodically as Patrick said he heard Rubenstein did. (2014) (1248) Patrick said he last saw Ruby about 10 or assassination, but had heard that Ruby had return 12 years prior to the ed that time to visit his relatives. (2015) Patrick stated to Chicago since was not such that they would visit each other, but “their friendship _Street, they would visit.” (2016) if they met on the (1249) When questioned by the FBI, Earl Ruby Ruby went to grammar school with Patrick.(2017) stated that Jack The FBI report states: Earl has no knowledge of Jack’s association with Patric except on one occasion, date unknown, that Jack k, mentio he had gone to grammar school with Patrick. Patrick ned not generally known to the Ruby family. He recalls was that Lenny Patrick was the black sheep of the family. Patric father was a Chicago policeman. Jack Patrick, brother of k’s Lenny, who is allegedly respectable, married a distant cousin (about four times removed) of the Ruby’s. Her name is Weinbert. Earl has no knowledge of this family. (2018) (1250) The FBI interview of Ruby’s sister, Marion Carroll, states: Specifically, Mrs. Carroll stated she had heard the name Leonard Patrick, who is considered to be a Chicago area hoodlum, and stated perhaps he [Ruby] grew up in the area with Jack but is quite sure they would have no more than a speaking acquaintance. (2019) (1251) Eva Grant testified before the Warren Commission that the family knew of Patrick’s existence, but “we never associated with him in our home or in our business or anything.” (2020) When Grant was asked if she knew of any telephone contacts Ruby had had in the last 10 years, the following exchange occurred : Grant. Here—I’m going to tell you—in the last year he has had so much aggravation in the club, that he called I enny Patrick. That was the last resort. He figured he might know somebody—this guy is not a holy man by far. Artrorney. Lenny Patrick is not a holy man ? Grant. No, he’s not by far. He’s a gambler. Arrorney. Jack called him for what purpose ? Grant. He called him for the purpose to see if he could fix him up with the union, so he could have amateur nights same as the other two fellows here. Arrorney. It’s something to do with the union? Grant. That’s right. 950 AtrornEY. So that the only contacts that you do know about were through AGVA, or what you have already told us? Grant. There was nothing—I know when Lenny—he said something about maybe he know somebody in the AGVA. Arrorney. Who could help them in the trouble he was having. Grant. That’s right. * * *(2027) (1252) Later in her testimony Grant stated that Ruby called Patrick in Chicago “one time, and he was not there, and until he got his num- ber—he called 15 different people from what I understand.” (2022) She stated that Patrick contacted Ruby: Last summer and he also told me, you know, he told me during one of those months he said, “I tried to call Lenny Patrick,” and he said, “I got his number,” he got it from some- body and I don’t know who, what and I didn’t give a darn. (2023) (1253) At one point in Grant’s Warren Commission testimony, she stated that she knew who Patrick was, but had not seen him for 35 years. (2024) She stated, “We are very well acquainted.” (2025) (1254) When Patrick was asked if he was aware of Ruby’s labor dis- pute with AGVA, he stated he was not and “had nothing to do with it.” (2026) He said, however, that his “partner might have.’ (2027) When asked if Ruby telephoned him in 1963, Patrick stated: He had no reason to telephone me, not me. He might have talked to my partner, I don’t know, I couldn’t tell you. (2028) Later Patrick stated, “I don’t believe he ever telephoned me.” (2029) (1255) Hyman Rubenstein also testified before the Warren Com- mission about Ruby’s connection with Patrick.(2030) Hyman stated that Ruby called him in the fall of 1963 and wanted him to contact some people in Chicago who had connections with AGVA in New York. Hyman called everyone he knew in Chicago and did not succeed. (2031) Hyman stated: It was just one of those things that didn’t work out, and if I am not mistaken I think Jack tried to call some of the other boys in Chicago, one bail bondsman, I can’t think of his name, and then he tried to call Lenny Patrick, I believe, Lenny Patrick, and then I think he tried to call somebody else. (2032) (1256) When Hyman was asked how Ruby knew Patrick, he stated: Everybody knows Lenny Patrick, when you go to school you know everybody in a school or even high school, and if you lived on the west side you know Lenny Patrick because — Lenny Patrick, you walk into a delicatessen or into a pool- nea istLenny,” “Hi, Jack,” that is how you know him. 2033 (1257) Hyman originally stated he did not know what Patrick did for a living, but when asked if Patrick made an honest living, he re- plied, “I think gambling is his biggest racket. I think so.” (2034) 951 (1258) On November 24, 1963, an FBI informant stated that in the mid-1940’s a close friend of Ruby’s, Abe Zuckerman, Zuckerman did not cut Leonard Patrick in for part was of shot because the of a gambling operation.(2035) The informant stated that proceeds after the shooting, Patrick told Ruby to leave town beca shortly operating a book without Patrick’s sanction. Patrick allege usehe’ was dly told Ruby that if he didn’t leave town, he would get what Zuckerman got. (2036) As stated previously, Patrick denied having anything to do with Ruby’s leaving Chicago. (2037) } (1259) In his deposition, Patrick stated that he did know of “Zookie” Zuckerman, but did not know anything about his murder.(2038) When asked if Ruby knew Zuckerman, he stated that Ruby might have.(2039) He also stated that Ruby was not involved in bookmak- ing.(2040) When asked if Patrick ever told Ruby to leave Chicago, Patrick stated, “No, not me.” When asked if someone else told Ruby to leave, “No, I really don’t, to tell you the truth. I don’t recall... 2” (2041) (1260) During an FBI interview of Jack Patrick on December 9, 1963, he said that though he and Ruby had resided in the same neigh- borhood in Chicago, he could not recall Ruby. (2042) (1261) In a telephone contact with the committee, Leonard Patrick said he and Ruby were brought up together in Chicago, but he “hasn’t seen him for years.” (2043) Patrick also stated that “Ruby was a nice guy with kids. He wasn’t connected with anybody. I mean I don’t know cause I haven’t seen him in years but he was not a ‘wise guy’, if ou know what I mean.” (2044) (1262) In his deposition, Patrick told the committee that he knew Ruby in Chicago and stated: I never was what you could call running around with him or anything like that. I knew of him. I knew him when he was a kid. He lived in the next block from me. (2045) (1263) Patrick also stated he knew “one or two” of Ruby’s brothers but could not recall their names.(2046) He said he never “associated with” Ruby and would only see him when he “would run into him in ‘a restaurant or somewhere . . .”(2047) Patrick also stated he never visited Ruby in Dallas and never did any business with Ruby. (2048) When asked if he ever saw Ruby when Ruby visited his family in Chi- cago, Patrick stated: I don’t recall. I haven’t seen much of him. I told you this. If I did, I would tell you. There is nothing there. No, I never had nothing to do with him in any kind of business. If I seen him, hello, how are you, that’s all. I never had nothing to do with him. (2049) (1264) When asked when he last saw Ruby, Patrick indicated thathe had told the FBI he had not seen Ruby “in maybe 10, 15 years” prior to the assassination.(2050) When Patrick was asked again to state hen he last met Ruby, Patrick stated, “I never had no meeting with him.” (2051) (1265) Regarding any knowledge Patrick may have connecting Ruby to organized crime activities during the 1940’s, Patrick stated: A 952 I will tell you the way it is. I don’t think he ever was. I know he had something to do with it from what I hear. I don’t know if he had it then. It was some kind of a union or some- thing, iron or junk, something. I don’t know if he was with anybody who was. I don’t know. I think he was with a fellow by the name of Dorfman or somebody, the old man or some- thing. Then, I think, from when I reflect, I think he wasn’t ‘there long. That is when he left, as far as I know, you know, goaway. I never seen much of him. (2052) (1266) Patrick did not believe Ruby’s move to Dallas was related | to any organized crime activity, but stated “you never know for | sure.” (2052) (1267) Dave Yaras, one of Patrick’s closest associates, was also asso- ciated with Jack Ruby.(2054) Yaras claimed he knew Ruby as “Sparky,” a “young hustler and fight fan from Division and Damen Street area, 80 years ago.”(2055) Yaras also stated that his brother, Sam Yaras, who resided in Dallas, was acquainted with Jack Ruby. (2056) Patrick stated in his deposition that his “partner,” Dave Yaras, knew Ruby “as a friend, too, more than I did.”(2057) Patrick did not know how Ruby got to know Yaras. (2058) (1268) Both Ruby and Patrick had contact with Irwin Weiner, a major organized crime and Teamsters figure who Ruby had contacted in October 1963.(2059) Weiner also admitted having had prior con- tacts with Ruby. On February 21, 1958, it was reported to the FBI that a meeting was held at the Trade Winds Restaurant in Chicago at which both Patrick and Weiner were present. The purpose of this meeting was not known. (2060) On March 11, 1965, an FBI informant advised that a week earlier Patrick, Obbie Frabotta and Phil Alderisio had met with a bondsman named “Stuck” who was working for Irwin Weiner.(2067) Again the reason for this meeting was _ not known. (2062) In his deposition, Patrick stated he knew Weiner be- cause he also grew up on the West Side of Chicago, but he never did any business with him. He also stated that Ruby probably knew Weiner. (2063) (1269) Deposition taken by the House Select Committee on Assas- j sinations. 953 BEFORE THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES In the Matter of: f Investigation of the assassination of President John F, Kennedy, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald, et al. DEPOSITION OF LEONARD PATRICK, a witness, produced, sworn, and examined on Friday, the 2lst day of July, in the year of our Lord 1978, between the hours of 10:20 in the fore- noon and 11:40 in the forenoon of that day, in Room 1610, Everett McKinley Dirksen Building, 219 South Dearborn Stréet, Chicago, Illinois, APPEARANCES : JAMES E., MC DONALD Senior Staff Counsel, Select Committee on Assassinations, United States House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 954 LEONARD PATRICK of lawful age, being produced, sworn, and examined on the part of the Committee, deposeth and saith: MR. MC DONALD: This is the deposition of Leonard Patrick being taken in the U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Illinois, on. Friday,.July..21,19/8. My name is James McDonald, senior attorney with the Select Committee on Assassinations, House of Representatives, United States House of Representatives. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MC DONALD: For the record, would you please state your name. Leonard Patrick. And your address? 2820 Jaralath. Is that where you are residing? No. That is 7425 Belmont. Q: Belmont in Chicago? A. I use that for my mailing address. Anyone you want isvVall right, but that is where they come and I am around there. Q. Both of these addresses are in Chicago, Illinois? A. Yes. Q. Mr. Patrick, as you know, this proceeding is being transcribed by a court reporter. Pursuant to House Resolution 955 222 and Committee Rule 4, I have been designated as an attorney empowered to take statements under oath. You have just pre- viously been sworn by United States Magistrate Carl Sussman. Mr. Patrick, is the statement that you are about to give the Committee being given voluntarily? A. tees ee Le. Q. Are you under subpoena to be here today? A. No, I don't think so. Q. You do have the right to have an attorney present this morning if you so desire. Do you wish to have an attorney with you this morning? A. No, I don't see why I should have an attorney. 2. As I indicated, this proceeding is being transcribed and you will be given a copy of the record when it is in printed ee We will provide it to you so you can check it for grammatical and typographical errors. Prior to the commencement of this proceeding, I handed you a copy of the House Resolutions pertaining to the Select Committee on Assassinations, namely, House Resolutions 222, 433 and 760. I Sy astarnvinee you with a copy of the rules of the Committee and I pointed out to you Committee Rule 4, which pertains to state- ments under oath by designated counsel, Mr. Patrick, did you : have an opportunity to review the materials that I have just mentioned? A. I looked through it, yes. 956 2. Did you understand what you read? A. Yes jl’ did, 2 O.K., thank you, ‘Mr. Patrick, you mentioned or stated that you cur- rently reside in Chicago. How long have you been living in Chicago? A. All my life. Q. For purposes of identification, are you the same Leonard Patrick who was incarcerated at the Lexington Federal Correctional Institute? A. I am. Q. And you were just released when? A. July 3rd. Q. 1978? A. I am still under the supervision of the Halfway House, yes. Q. Mr. Patrick, as you know, you have been asked to come here this morning to talk to us, talk to the Committee, about Jack Ruby. Do you know Jack Ruby? A. I knew him, sure. 21 Q. Are we speaking of the Jack Ruby who was convicted of 22 shooting an individual by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald in 23 | Dallas, Texas? Ax Yes, Q. I am going to be asking you some questions that per- ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 957 tain to Jack Ruby and your knowledge and association with him. Before we get into that, I would like to ask you some general questions about the Chicago scene in the years 1946 and 1947, specifically you were residing in Chicago during those years? A. I was. Q. Did you know Jack Ruby during that time? A. I never was what you would call running around with him or anything like that. I knew of him. I knew him when he was a kid. He lived in the next block from me. Q. I see. Let's just clear that up. How did you come to know Jack Ruby? A. Well, I knew him from being in the neighborhood and everything. We used to hang around on the West Side. Q. The West Side of Chicago? A. +Yes, I knew him, that's all. I just knew him. I hadn't seen him after that for I don't know how many years. I wasn't friendly with him. I knew him. I always thought he was a nice fellow. Q. Was he older or younger than you? A. Maybe a year less or more than me, I imagine. 2. O.K. A A year or two, something like that, I imagine. Did you know any of his other brothers or sisters? =& I didn't know the sister, I knew the brother. 9. Which one? 958 4. I think-- Q. (Interrupting) Earl? A. Earl was it? Q. Well, he had a brother named Earl, a brother named Sam. A. I knew one or two of them. I probably might have known them all, but I was never that friendly. I just knew them from around there. One of them had to do something with selling pots, pans, some stuff like that. When I see him, 1 would say hello like everyone else, you see. Q. For clarification purposes, what is your birthday? A. October.6, 1913. Q. So it is your testimony, then, that you knew Jack Ruby as a young man growing up in the same neighborhood? A. Yes, that's right. Q. Did you associate with him or did you know of him during the war years, 1941 through 1945? A. No, I never have associated with him. To tell you the truth, I don't even remember when I last seen him because it has been so long. I told them the same thing. Q. You told who the same thing? A. When they come over, the FBI, they asked the same questions, you know, what I think of him, do you think he would | do this or that. I would say who am I to say, you know. 2Q. Well, let me ask you this. Did you associate with 959 him in the years 1945, 1946, 1947? A. I never associated with him, definitely. Q. Did you ever hear of him during those years when he would be in Chicago? a I don't think so. The only way I would see him was I would run into him in a restaurant or somewhere and that is how. I had nothing, no association with him whatever of any kind or anything, as far as that goes. a Mr. Patrick, you are regarded as a person who would have knowledge of some of the, what we would describe as having knowledge of the criminal element during those years, 1946, 1947, you were known to have some wes oeiates who could be defined or categorized as being part of Chicago's "organized crime” scene during those years. Is that true? A. Well, I knew them like I knew people who weren't, you know. Q. I understand, A, I can't tell you I didn't know them. QQ O.R A. I knew everybody, when you come down to it. Not everybody, but, you know, like here in town. a. Well, from your knowledge of the organized crime scene in Chicago in 1946, 1947, did you know then that Jack Ruby was in any way affiliated or associated with any indi- Sl ane viduals who we would say would be part of the criminal element? ae 960 A. Well, you see, I was away from 1933 to 1940, you know, 2. Yes. And where were you for those years? A. I was in Michigan City, Indiana, 2. That was for a bank robbery conviction? A. Yes. I come out March 11, 1940. Q. And that was a federal institution, federal penitentiary? A. No, a state, Q. A state institution, 0.K. In 1946, 1947, did you have--was Jack Ruby a part of ene what we would call organized crime that you know of? A. - I will tell you the way it is. I don't think he ever was. I know he had something to do with it from what I hear. I don't know if he had it then. It was some kind of a union or something, iron or junk, something. I don't know if he was with anybody who was. I don't know. I think he was with a fellow by the name of Dorffman or somebody, the old man or something. Then, I think, from when I reflect, I think he wasn't there long. Tht is when he left, as far as I know, you know, to go tren I never seen much of him. Q. When you say he left, what do you mean? A. I think that is when he went to Texas, I don't know. 24 Q. To Dallas? | 25 A. Yes, that is all oT snow, 961 2. Do you know if he went to Dallas as a part of any “organized activity? In other words, that he was part of an organization that sent him to Dallas? c A. The way I see it, and you never know for sure, but I would say no. From what I could see, ‘I would say no. I don't think so. You know you don't really know anything. I would say no. He just went there and opened a nightclub, I think. Q. Did you ever visit Ruby in Dallas? A. No. I have never been to Dallas. Q. When did you--would you describe for us the extent of your contacts with Jack Ruby as an adult? In other words, you said you knew him as a young man. A. I never had no kind of a business or anything with him or any talk about anything. My partner knew him. He died about four or five years ago. ae And who was your partner? A. Davey Yaris. He talked to him, too, you know. He knew him as a friend, too, more than I did. Do you under- stand? Q. Yaris, did he grow up in the same neighborhood with you? A. Yaris was from the Northwest side, like Highland, 1200 North. That gives you an idea. 2. You are saying that Yaris knew Ruby? 962 A. | Wel he knew him. He knew him better. He used to go to fights years back before I come out. I really never seen much of him. Whenever I seen him, how are you, hello, you ah but I never had any kind of Geeinane or dealings with him, nothing. ee Teta mous testimony, then, that you never went to Dallas? A, No, definitely not, Q. Did you ever see Rubywhen he visited his family in 10 Chicago? 11 A. I don't recall. I haven't seen much of him. I told you hiss If I did, I would tell you. There is nothing there. No, I never had nothing to do with him in any kind of business. If I seen him, hello, how are you, that's all. I never had nothing to do with him. Q. O.K. You said that you heard that Ruby was active in an iron and junk union? A. They have that. I don't know if it was in the 1940's or ere 1930's. In the 30's, I didn't pay no attention to it. It might have been part of the 40's too.’ Q. In the 30's you were in the state penitentiary? A. Yes, so I say. I was there seven years. Q. So you have no direct firsthand knowledge of Ruby's 24 activities during those years? ohn A. No. The only thing I know is what I seen in the 963 paper. I never paid attention to this junk or whatever he was doing. It wasn't no concern of mine either way if he was making a living or what he was doing. a. O.K. Did you ever hear of an individual by the name of Leon Cooke? He was killed, he was murdered, A. I heard the name. I don't know if I knew him or not. I don't think so. I might have met him somewheres, but I don't recall, I heard the name. Q. He was killed. Let's not classify it as murder, but I know he was killed. A. I recall seeing something, I am not sure, in the paper. Q. O.K. You mentioned that Jack Ruby was friendly with Dave Yaris or knew him? A. Yes, he knew him. 2. And he knew him during the 1930's? A. Well, I don't know if he knew him during the 1930's, I was away and I didn't meet Davey until 1944, Q. 1g SOrty > A. I am just saying. By I mispoke. A. I ain't got nothing to tie him to him. Q. Do you know how Ruby got to know Yaris? A. I don't really know. Maybe the fights. I don't even know, to tell you the truth. He just knew him, you know. I ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 964 knew him. He went to the same school I did. Q. Who did? A. Ruby did. I think I did. Q. What would be the last time you can remember that you ever had contact with Ruby? A. What I can recollect, I could be geen but like I told them 12, 15 years ago-- 9. (Interrupting) That is when you were interviewed by the FBI? A. Yes. I told them then that I hadn't seen the man, i could be wrong, but in maybe 10, 15 years. I never had nothin with him, I never had nothing at all, Q. Did you ever hear of an individual by the name of W e . ih . Zookie the bookie, JZookie Zuckerman? A. He was on the West Side. Q. He apparently was murdered? A. Yes. Q. Do you know anything about that? AY No, I don't know, He was around there for years. I was a kid, maybe 10 years old, maybe a little more. He had a place on--he's run it for years. 2. Did you know, getting back to Jack Ruby, his family, did you really know Jack Ruby other than when you were in 24 grammer school with him? 25 A. I didn't go to school with him. I think he was, like 965 I say, a little older than me. I know we went to the same school. Q. Was that Sheppard Grammer School? A. Yes, a few blocks from where he lived and I lived, It was on San Francisco. He lived on Sacramento. I lived on Whimple, the next block from him, Q. When did you first learn that Jack Ruby shot Oswald? When and how? A. I think I was in Florida then. I had a motel on the golf course and I had the television on, Q. Where abouts in Florida? A. I don't know if that is when Kennedy got shot or he done it.. I am not sure now. When did this happen, 1963? 2. Yes. A. Lt Gas either one, either Kennedy getting shot or him doing it, I am not sure now when it was. I was over at the golf course there. I was eating in the restaurant right there and they had a news flash and I was watching. I am not sure if that. is when Kennedy got assassinated or when he shot Oswald. Q. Did you know in the middle 1940's whether--the allegations were or are that during that time that you played a prominent role in the bookmaking operation in Chicago in a certain area of Chicago, the West Side. A. No, I don't know. 966 Q. n Let me say this. It is safe to say that you knew a lot about what was going on in the bookmaking area during those years? : A. Yes, I knew. It's old. You know. I don't want no > lawyers, you understand. I have got nothing to hide. I don't wn want to look observed in this. Q. Sure. Let me ask you this. Going on your knowledge of that activity during those years, was Jack Ruby involved? A, No, no, not in the bookmaking. 2. You can say that with some authority? A. Definitely. He had nothing to do with it. He had nothing to do around there, that I know. Q. Did he ever attempt to get in on bookmaking activi- ties? A, Not that I know. Not around there, anyhow. 2; O.K, Did it ever come that Ruby was attempting to get in on some bookmaking activity and he was told by you and others that he could not get in on it and that he ought to leave town? A. No, not me. Q. How about someone else, do you have any idea? A. No, I really don't, to tell you the truth, I don't recall. I know around there he didn't. If he did somewhere 24 else, I don't know. 25 Q. You say " around there, nn what area are we talking . about? eae 967 A. That is the West Side, 12th and Kenzie and Roosevelt, Independence, all around there. It is Lee strip maybe 10, 12 blocks. You have got Roosevelt, 16th Street. It was a whole big ward, you know. Q. Do you know if Ruby knew Abe Zuckerman? A. He might have known him just to say hello or something just from around there, everyone knew him. Q. Did Zuckerman grow up in the same area as you? A, Zookie was from the West Side, yes. They probably all played some time or other there, Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Irwin Weiner? | A. I know Irwin Weiner, yes. ‘Q. How do you know him? A. From the West Side, he is from there, Q. He grew up there? A. Yes, he grew up on the West Side, Q. Did you maintain contact with him when you became an adult? A, No, I never had nothing to do with him as far as any business or anything. I knew him. I run into him now, hello, how are you, glad to see you, all that, that's all. I never had no business with him, definitely not, Q. Do you know if Ruby, Jack Ruby knew Irwin? A. Chances are he did. I would say so. They were all 968 neighbors. Everyone knew everyone. Q. During the last four months leading up to the time when President Kennedy was assassinated, Jack Ruby was having some problems, he was having a dispute with a kbor union known a“ the American Guild of Variety Artists, AGVA. Were you aware _ of that dispute? A. No. I had nothing to do with it. My partner might have. I don't know if he talked with him or what he done: : didn’t know nothing about it. Q. Do you recall whether Jack Ruby ever telephoned you during 1963? A. He had no reason to telephone me, otime: He might have talked to my partner, I don't know, I couldn't tell you. Q. What kind of business were you and he in at that time? A. Well, it was--1963, I don't remember then. It might have been a little action with the pps eee On gy part... it probably was then. That is about it. I can't think of nothing 3 else. That is about all. eye ADS you recall Pace Ruby telephoning you in those years? : | : A. I don't believe he:ever telephoned me. He might see telephoned him. That is possible. He was closer to him than me. He used to be a little friendly with him, The only thing, whenever I would say hello, how are you, that-te fpr 969 1 had never had no business with him. 2 Q. Have you ever been to Cuba? 3 Pi I was there once, A | 2. When was that?. 5 A, 1 ey oiehe something like that. I was there one day. 6 Q. Where did you fly to, Havana? 7 A. I think so, 8 Q. From Miami? 9 A. Yes, 10 Q. When was the last time you were in Miami? Ti A Miami? The last time I was in Miami was three, four 12 years ago, maybe about four, 13 Q. Do you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to Cuba? 14 A. I don't really know. He might have been there, but 15 I don't really know. I had nothing with him. That is 16 | definitely. 3 17 Q. I asked you before, but let me do it again just to 18 make sure we have it down on the record, when was the last 19 time and under what circumstances did you sede with Jack Ruby? 20 A. .I never had no meeting with him. 21 Q. You met him, had any business dealings. 22 An I would say definitely not, never had no. business 03 with him at all, 1 just knew him when I would run into hin, 24 hello, how are you. I was never that friendly with him. Hello, 25 | how are you, how is everybody. I. don't think I would recognize 970 his brother now. I haven't seen him in so many years, I definitely had no business with him at no time. Q. Mr. Patrick, I am finished with your questions, I think it is safe to assume this is probably going to be the last time that anyone is ever going to ask you a question about Jack Ruby. So at this time I am giving you the opportunity to add anything. A. The only thing I can say, when I seen him do that, I was surprised as hell. My own way of thinking, I would say that he had nothing to do with anything, as far as I knew the guy, and everybody would tell you the same thing that knew him, I think he just done that there on the spur of the moment and wanted to be a hero or something. I don't know what he wanted to be, but I think he had no business doing what he done, we know that. I was shocked to see him do it. I said what the hell is this business, There is always a doubt why he done it, what was he doing there, we know there is always a doubt. As far as me, I would say definitely, as far as I know, I wold say I don't think he had anything to do with anything. That is my way a: thinking. “Knowing him, he never was a man that was vicious anyhow as far as a muscle man, whatever you cakl it. Q. How do you know that? A. Well, you really don't know. He liked to fight and everything, but I don't think that he was ever, as far as I 971 know, well, you never really know anything as far as that goes, I've never been around him that much, Q. When did you observe him fighting? I assume you mean prize fighting. A. He used to go to fights. We used to have fights Q. When was this? A. Well, in the '40's there were fights at the Miracle Gardens, I am pretty sure, When I came out, I used to go on Monday night. He probably was there. I think he was there, Everybody used to go there. That had that open air or whatever it was on Broadway and some street there in Chicago. Q. When you first learned that Jack Ruby had shot Lee Harvey Oswald, did you know, did you recognize, did you know who the Jack Ruby was? A. Yes, yes. Everyone knew that, everybody. He knew everybody around, as far as that goes. He was well liked by everybody. He never was, as far as I could see, he never was a fellow to go around and be a bully or want to be a tough guy, as far as I know, Like I say, I haven't seen much of him over the years. Q. Other than to say hello, your testimony is that you knew him as a kid, you spent seven years in a Michigan jail, ie came out and saw him during the early 1940's, A. I might have, I am not even sure of that, 972 —_ Q. We know he moved to Dallas in 1946, 1947, did you have any conversation with him other than to say hello? A. I might have run into him a time or two in the restaurant or somewhere but I never had no meeting with him to go eat or anything like that. Nothing personal with him, noth- o ing at all. I can say that definitely, never had no business N with him. What my partner had, he was friendly with him, maybe he talked to him on the phone. I don't know. I myself never had nothing with him. 9. You do know, then, that your partner, Dave Yaris, knew him? A. Oh, he knew him. He was more friendly than I was with him, as far as that goes. Q. When you say your partner, how were you and Dave Yaris partners? A. Well, we were in businesses way back and way back we had a tavern or something. Q. Would it be accurate to say you were partners both in, as vou say, a tavern, a legitimate business, and illegitimat 20 | at the same time? 21 A. Yes, something like that. Q. You say Dave knew Jack better than you? A. He was more friendly with him, as far as that goes, sure. I knew him, but I never had nothing personal with him. 2. Do you know whether Dave Yaris saw him during the year 973 ] leading up to 1963 when Jack was living and working in Dallas? . A. I couldn't really tell you, to tell you the truth. 3 I don't know if he seen him or ever went down there or not. 4 I don't really know. I couldn't say for sure, but ae 5 I can recall. You know, he lived his life, I lived mine. He 6 went here and there. When.I went away, I went to Florida, 7 California, Arizona a few times. I never run around the | 8 country. I had no pease to. I didn't care about it. He used to go here and there. Everyone is different. MR. MC DONALD: Well, I have no further questions. THE WITNESS: What I told you is the way it was. You are not going to catch me in nothing because there is nothing to hide. I never was in Dallas. I never was personal with any kind of business. As far as I know, I am positive | that he nevercalled me. That is all I can say. MR. MC DONALD: One last question. BY MR. MC DONALD: | 2. Through your contacts and knowledge of different people, have you ever heard any scuttlebut, gossip, over the years that somehow Jack Ruby, that the Oswald killing was what we would call a mob hit? You are shaking your head no? ve I would say no. They wouldn't have nothing to do with nothing like that there. Definitely not. Q. And why do you say that? 974 A. I don't know. They wouldn't stick their nose out like that, What are they going to get? Q. What about the assassination of President Kennedy? Was the mob ever, in your opinion-- A. (Interrupting) In my opinion, I don't think they are crazy. I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't have nothing to do with nothing like that or any public official or anybody. It is silly. They know that. They wouldn't do that. They would have no reason to do that there, as far as I know. You know, you never know anything. If they were, they weren't going to tell me nothing. I would say definitely not. Q. Say, using a hypothetical, if they did, do you think that, using the term loosely, the mob could keep that kind of hit a secret all these years without someone talking, without someone bragging about it? A. I would say they definitely had nothing to do with that. Q. I understand that, but if they did, assuming that they did, do you think they could keep it a secret this long without somebody talking, without someone bragging to somebody, some girlfriend? © A. You never know. I would say definitely they would not do nothing lile that, Him,knowing him the way he is, which 24 you never really know, I would say there was nothing with him 25 and Oswald or anybody. There will always be a doubt because he 975 killed the guy that could have really told you something. You- know that. That's the whole thing. Knowing him, when I seen. that, I said this guy was crazy or something, unless someone. edged him on up there, I don't know. MR. MC DONALD: O.K., Mr. Patrick. THE WITNESS: Thank you. I didn't need no lawyer because I was going to tell you the way it was. I have nothing to hide, MR. MC DONALD: Well, you have done that. THE WITNESS: I don't need no lawyer. I don't want to see no more lawyers. MR. MC DONALD: I can understand that. With that, this deposition is concluded. Thank you very mch, ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 976 United States of America, ? City of Chicago, ) ss. ( State of Illinois. ) I, Carl B, Sigman’ Magistrate Judge, United States District Court, do certify that, pursuant to notice, there came before me, in Room 1610, Everett McKinley Dirksen Building, 219 South Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois, Leonard Patrick, who was by me duly sworn to testify the whole truth of his knowledge touching the matter in investigation aforesaid, that he was examined and his examination at the time reduced to direct recording by Patrick Deveney and that such examination has been correctly transcribed and is fully and accurately set forth in the 23 preceding pages; that the deposition is a true record of the testimony given by the witness; that said deposition was taken on the day, between the hours and at the place in that behalf aforesaid. I do further certify that I am not counsel, attorney, or relative of either party, or clerk or stenographer of either party or of the attorney of either party, or otherwise in- terested in the event of this matter. IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand this day of 1375. 24 Magistrate Judge 25 977: I, Patrick Deveney, do hereby certify that the proceedings set forth in the deposition of Leonard Patrick in the 23 pre- ceding pages took place on the date as first hereinbefore set forth, in Chicago, Illinois, and that this is a full and correct oes transcript of my recorded notes taken of said deposition. ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 978 xu. Ralph Paul (1270) During the intensive examination of Jack Ruby’s background following the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, the name of one individual arose more often than any other: Ralph Paul. Paul was consistently recognized as Ruby’s associate or business partner, and Paul stated that he was Ruby’s closest friend. (2064) Ruby once wrote, “Ralph Paul knows more about me than anyone.” (2065) Biographical Summary (1271) Itis known that Paul was an immigrant from Russia, having come to New York in 1901 or 1902 with his father. He had been born in Kiev on December 17, 1899. Paul’s mother came to the United States in 1907 or 1908. Paul had two brothers and one sister who had always resided in New York. (2066) (1272) Paul was married in 1920 and fathered two daughters. This marriage ended in a divorce in 1932,(2067) and Paul never remarried (although he was a close companion of Tammi True in the 1960’s and allegedly lived with her at times).(2068) His former wife was inter- | viewed by the FBI and described Paul as hard working and a good | provider. (2069) (1273) Paul worked with his father at a fruit market and owned his own market (Ralph’s Fruit Exchange) for 20 years at a site in the Bronx. His father died in 1945, and at the end of 1947 Paul moved to the Dallas area. (2070) (1274) For many years, including 1963, Paul lived in a lower level room in the home of his one-time partner, Bert Bowman.(2077) Paul stated in 1964 that he was living with friends on Copeland Road in Arlington at that time, while waiting for a new house to be built at 1602 Browning Drive. (2072) Association With Ruby (1275) Ruby and Paul spoke to each other every day, either by telephone at Paul’s commercial enterprise (The Bull-Pen Drive-In), or when Paul visited the Carousel, which he did at least every Tues- day and Friday.(2073) On a business level, Ruby was constantly indebted to Paul for loans to operate his nightclubs, and Paul held a half interest in the Carousel until early 1964. (2074) (1276) Their relationship began in 1948 when Ruby came up and introduced himself to Paul,(2075) who was operating a bar called the Sky Club at the time. Several years later, this friendship took on new dimensions when Paul loaned Ruby and another individual (Mar- tin Gimpel) $2,000, which was supposedly only needed as front money and was to be repaid the next day.(2076) This did not turn out to bel the case, and shortly thereafter this loan was increased to $3,700, wit Paul accepting a note on the Silver Spur as partial collateral for th indebtedness. (2077) This was the first of a number of loans from Pau to Ruby, loans which were never fully repaid and which eventuall may have totaled $15,000. (2078) (1277) Paul reportedly loaned Ruby $2,500 to start the Vegas Club again accepting a note on the club.(2079) There was another $2,20 loan to help the Sovereign Club through hard times, which led Pau to force Ruby to change the Sovereign from a private club to 979 burlesque house, which became the Carou sel. (2080) Eva Grant once said that “Paul must have put in a foriune (in the Carousel), but he ain’t telling.” (2087) (1278) There is also an indication that Paul sum of money (allegedly $15,000 to $17 000) toloaned Ruby a larger was having problems with the Internal Revenue assist Ruby when he Servic is no indication that any of these loans were made e. (2082) There for reasons other than friendship. (2083) (1279) As stated earlier, Ruby was never able to reduce ‘standing debt to Paul. Paul told the FBI that Ruby had fully his out- any money he loaned Ruby or the Carousel. (2084) Andrew never repaid Armstrong, Ruby’s assistant at the Carousel, told the committee that supposed to get the cash (approximately $3,000) which Ruby Paul was his person and in his car when he was arrested following had on the Oswald shooting. Since the money was impounded, Armstrong gave the cash that he had been given by Ruby several days earlier Paul the club receipts) to pay the Carousel’s bill. (2085 ) (from (1280) Ruby did give Paul 500 shares in the Carousel or, more specifically, in the S & R Corporation. This corporation was formed in February 1960, with Paul as its registered agent.(2086) The cor- poration issued 1,000 shares of stock, so Paul had a half interest in it when he received his 500 shares. (Paul was never able to ascertain who held the remaining 500 shares.) (1281) After the Oswald shooting, Paul immediately assumed the day-to-day management of the Carousel, since Ruby was incarcerated and Paul wished to protect his “investment.” (2087) Paul changed the club’s name to the “Big D Copa” (2088) to lessen unfavorable publicity and attention, and attempted to keep it economically viable, but it was a losing battle. Business was very poor, the club lost its beer license,(2089) and Paul stated that he was too old to run two businesses. (2090) After 214 months, he relinquished management and turned his 500 shares over to Eva Grant, without asking for return consideration. (2097) (1282) The other business Paul was referring to was The Bull-Pen, a drive-in eating establishment located in Arlington, Texas. (2092) It was an apparently successful venture(2093) which Paul bought in 1960 with Bert Bowman. In J anuary 1963, Paul bought out Bow- man and became the sole owner. (2094) (1283) Before The Bull-Pen, Paul was involved in a number of less Successful commercial endeavors. In 1947, shortly after arriving in tho Dallas area from New York, Paul bought the Sky Club with Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont. (2095) Paul got out of the Sky Club 1 year later and opened the Blue Bonnet Hotel, which lasted until 1953. (2096) This was followed by the Miramar Restaurant, with Chris T. Semos as co-owner.(2097) In 1957, Semos bought Paul out, after a dispute concerning Paul’s allegedly rude treatment of patrons. (2098) ‘Paul then operated an ice cream parlor with Sam Ruby, but this only lasted 3 or 4 months.(2099) For the next 9 months, Paul helped Jack Ruby at the Vegas Club.(2/00) The Bull-Pen came next. ) The last personal contact between Ruby and Paul before the Uswald shooting occurred on Thursday night, November 21, 1963, hen Paul went to the Carousel, and Ruby and he then went to the 980 Egyptian Lounge for dinner, then back to the Carousel.(2/01) On Friday and Saturday, Ruby made a number of telephone calls to Paul, although the exact number is in doubt. (1285) Paul’s Warren Commission and other testimony are some- what confusing and occasionally contradictory concerning these calls. The first came shortly after the assassination, when Ruby wanted to know if Paul heard the tragic news.(2/02) Several hours later, Ruby called Paul to state that he was closing the Carousel for the weekend and Paul should do the same with The Bull-Pen. Paul declined, say- ing that he had an eating place rather than a burlesque club. (2103) At approximately 6 p.m., Paul stated that Ruby called to let Paul know he would be attending synagogue services that evening. Paul was not interested in accompanying Ruby.(2/04) Paul also mentioned another call at about 8 :40 p.m. that evening. (2/05) (1286) On Saturday, November 23, there was an afternoon call (2106) and another in the early evening.(2/07) There were several calls Saturday evening, including a controversial call to The Bull-Pen, which was partially overheard by one Bull-Pen employee, Wanda Helmick. She told the FBI that Paul had said he had a date with Tammi True (Nancy Powell), one of the Carousel dancers, that eve- ning. (2708) Then she heard Paul ask Ruby if he was “crazy” or per- haps “have you lost your mind?”(2/09) Helmick also recalled some- thing being said about a gun.(27/0) She stated Paul spoke of this on Sunday, November 24, and mentioned something about a gun at that time. (2777) (1287) Obviously, if it were true, this information would be crucial in determining Ruby’s intent that weekend. All other Bull-Pen em- ployees on duty that evening were interviewed; none could corrobo- rate Helmick’s statements.(2/72) When questioned by the Warren Commission, Paul never mentioned a call from Ruby to The Bull-Pen on Saturday night, although he admitted receiving a call on Saturday. (2113) In a November 24, 1968, FBI interview, Paul stated that his last contact with Ruby was a call at 3 p.m. on Saturday. (2/74) (1288) Telephone records, however, indicate a 9-minute call from Ruby to The Bull-Pen at 10:44 p.m.(271/5) In a September 1, 1964, FBI interview, Paul admitted the “crazy” remark (thereby implicitly admitting a Saturday night call to The Bull-Pen), and explained it by stating that it referred to the closing of Ruby’s club rather than to Ruby himself or any plans he may have had.(2/76) Paul remained certain that he had never made a statement about Ruby’s gun to anybody. (2/17) (1289) Shortly after receiving this call at The Bull-Pen, Paul said he went home, leaving word that he felt ill.(2778) This information was given to Ruby when he again called The Bull-Pen, and Ruby’s next call was to Paul’s home; Paul said it was at 10 or 10:30 p.m. (2/19) Apparently Ruby wanted Paul to go somewhere with him, but Paul refused.(2/20) Another call came at approximately 11:30 p.m., with Paul saying that Ruby was at Eva Grant’s apartment. By this time, Paul was annoyed, telling Ruby that he was not feeling well and not to call again.(2/21) The telephone records differ in some respects from Paul’s memory and show a 1-minute call from the Carousel to The Bull- 981 Pen at 11:18 p.m., an identical 2-minute call 1-minute call from the Carousel to Paul’s home at 11:36 p.m., and a (1290) On Sunday, November 24, Paul was at at 11 -47 p.m. (2/22) The Bull-Pen when he recelved the news of Oswald’s shooting ; (2/23 upset and shaken.(2/24) He called Ruby’s apart ) it made him visibly ment, getting no an- swer, (2725) and then called Tom Howard, an attor sented both men in the past. Howard said that he ney who had repre- would see what he could do.(2726) Paul then drove with John J ackson, The Bull-Pen, and Tammi True, into Dallas, first the manager of police station, where Paul tried unsuccessfully to stopping at the see Ruby. (2/27) The trio then went to Tom Howard’s office nearby and watch sion until 3 p.m. (2128) ed televi- (1291) Paul, Jackson, and True then returned to Arlington up. By this time, Paul was somewhat frightened, having heard and split Ruby’s roommate, George Senator, had been arrested and that that police and the FBI were looking for him (Paul). He took shelter the motion picture theater for 90 minutes to avoid the press and in a police,(2129) then went to Jackson’s home, and then to the home the of Jackson’s sister. (2/30) Finally, Jackson persuaded Paul to allow FBI agents to interview him. Paul stated that he knew nothing about Ruby’s plans for the Oswald shooting. (2131 ) (1292) Paul continued to take an active role in Ruby’s legal defense, attending defense meetings and giving at least one check for the pay- ment of defense investigators, (2/32) although Paul denied making any payment for Ruby’s defense. (2/33) Paul also visited Ruby several times in prison. (2734) (1293) These visits were probably Paul’s only trips to a prison. There is no evidence that he had a criminal record, nor is there evidence that he had any connections to organized crime, or any political or law- enforcement connections. xi. George Senator {Biographical Summary 4(1294) George Senator was born to Abraham and Anna Senator jon September 4, 1913, at Gloversville, N.Y. He had two brothers— Jake, living in Gloversville, and Sam, living in Rochester—and three arried sisters, Frieda, Pearl, and Lena, all in New York City. His ‘ormal education ended with his graduation from grammar school at Sloversville in June 1929. He went to New York City and worked in u hat factory, for Western Union and in the wholesale silk industry, ind was unemployed at times. 1295) Senator developed lung trouble around 1932 and returned © Gloversville for about 1 year, part of which time he worked for his srother Jake, who operated a small restaurant. He returned to New York City and again worked in the silk industry. About 1934, Senator eft New York with Ike Heilberum and the Sebring family for Flori- la. He worked in Miami at various resorts as a kitchen worker. Be- ‘ween 1934 and 1941 he lived and worked in both New York City ind Miami. (2735) 1296) On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and vas assigned serial number 12,006,042. He served mainly as an aerial 982 armorer with the 5th Bomber Command, 33d Group, in Australia and in the Pacific theater during World War II.(2136) He was honorably discharged from the Army at Fort Dix, N.J., on September 9, 1945, with the rank of sergeant. (2737) (1297) In January 1946, Senator married Shirley Baren of the Bronx. A son, Robert, was born October 6, 1947. He was divorced in 1956 in Dallas. His former wife later married Milton Wechsler. (2/38) (1298) Senator is described as 5’714’’, 192 lbs, with brown eyes, brown-grey hair, dark complexion, mole on the left cheek, and an appendectomy scar. (2139) Statements by Senator (1299) Senator was interviewed on several occasions by the FBI and Secret Service regarding his association with Ruby and certain aspects of Ruby’s life. He was the first defense witness called at Ruby’s habeus corpus and bail hearing on December 23, 1963, and testified as a defense witness at Ruby’s trial. On April 21, 1963, Senator testified before the Warren Commission. (1300) In their interviews of Senator, the FBI and Secret Service focused on the sequence of events from the time Kennedy was assassi- nated to when Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald. The first statements by Senator were vague and disjointed. When asked about this by the Warren Commission, Senator replied that he had been under a great deal of stress and was not thinking clearly.* (1301) The only ommission by the agencies and the Warren Com- mission concerns Ruby associates. This area was not addressed at all except with respect to organized crime associates in Chicago. (1302) From the various interviews, et cetera, it was learned that Sen- ator had worked from the time he was in his early teens at various fac- tory and restaurant jobs. Among his employers were a silk wholesaler the Times Square Cafeteria and the Admiral Hotel, all in New York and the Astor Hotel in Miami. (2740) (1303) After the war, Senator and his friend, Heilberum, bought luncheonette, Denise Foods, at 254 West 35th Street, New York City In 1947, after about a year and a half, they went bankrupt. (2/41) He returned to Miami and worked as a lunch counterman for 2 years He then became a dress salesman for the Rhea Manufacturing Co. o Milwaukee for about 9 months.(2742) For the next 10 years, he sol dresses for Smoler Brothers of Chicago, moving to Dallas for tha company about May 1954. He traveled considerably out of Dallas as clothing salesman until about 1959-60. He then worked at odd job and in sales of various lines, including novelties for the Volume Sale Co. of Dallas. He worked for Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club fro March through August 1962, and at various other short periods since§ In 1964, Senator was a salesman of color postcards for Dexter Press§ West Nyack, N.Y.(2143) (1804) Social Security records indicate that Senator did not repor income from July 1958 through December 1961. In 1962, they indica that he was employed by the Volume Sales Co. and the Merchandi Mart of Dallas. (2744) Caton in testimony before the Warren Com *The chronology of events, as stated in the different interviews, is discussed in detai under the Ruby section of this profile. 983 mission, had described his activities during the working again for Rhea Manufacturing, trave 1958-61 period as: eorge Hamrik, doing odd jobs and cooking, ling with a friend, et _ Unger and Kenny (last name unknown) while livingcetera, for Ronnie (1805) Senator had no criminal record, altho with them. (2145) _ once about_1960 or 1961 by the Dallas police for ugh he was arrested held for 4 hours, fined $15, and released.(2146) drunkenness; he was on Senator at the Federal agencies, other than There were no files those associated with Jack Ruby. There was no indication of Senat criminals or persons associated with criminalor activibeing associated with ea iy be a law-abiding citizen with a rather ties. Senator ap- lengthy string of ad luck. (1806) Senator claimed that he had not met, with any professional gamblers. He did not known , or made friends gamble himself, other than at infrequent at-home poker games or when he was in the service. (2747) (1307) There was no indication that Senator with organized crime, either business or social. A had any associations commi who reviewed FBI files on telephone recordings of ttee consultant was no indication of a relationship between Senator Senator said there element. and any criminal (1308) Senator had moved to Dallas about May FBI he had first met Jack Ruby about 1955. He 15, 1954. He told the the time Ruby was assisting in the operation believed this was at was only a casual acquaintance until about Marchof the Vegas Club. Ruby would see him only infrequently when he happe or April 1962. He ned to meet him in the business area of Dallas or at a restaurant or night sions, he would talk to him for only a short perioclub. On those occa- (1809) About March or April 1962, Senator d of time. about out of funds. Ruby invited him to stay at was his out of work and was located on South Marsalis. Senator resided apart ment, which ‘mately 5 or 6 months. In return for his with Ruby for approxi- room and board, Senator assisted Ruby in the operation of the Carou sel Club by acting as cashier or taking tickets at the door. About Augus enator began operating the Texas Post Card t or September 1962, ‘Grandbury Apartments, located on Maple Co. and moved to the to help out at the Carousel Club on Street . Senator continued occasions. (2748) weekends and _ special Bet) This statement to the FBI contradict ‘During an interview on November 24, 1963, ed a prior statement. not lived with Ruby until November 1, 1963, Senator claimed he had occasionally was low on funds and would although he stated that he be asked by Ruby to come 984 (1313) Senator stated that Ruby was a big-hearted man who helped many people who were down on their luck. He said Ruby was very emotional and that, although he did not appear to be very religious, took his faith very seriously, observing all the Orthodox Jewish holidays, and particularly the memorial services for the dead. Ruby was a clean-living man who did not smoke and rarely drank; he had been concerned that Senator drank too much. Senator said Ruby re- garded himself as a Democrat,(2/52) with no firm political convic- tions. He read the daily newspapers without fail, but did not seem to be interested in international affairs. He never discussed the Cuban missile crisis or the President. (2/53) (1314) Ruby liked people and had a strong desire to be liked; while he sometimes talked rough, he actually was gentle. Senator dis- counted reports that Ruby was a “street brawler” but said he could “handle himself” when necessary in his frequent role as bouncer at his club.(2754) During his testimony before the Warren Commission Senator described Ruby as a “man of temperament” and said he had a tendency to “fly off” the handle, but he would calm down just as quickly. In their arguments, Ruby always had to be right, Senator wrong. (1315) Senator was witness to one actual fight Ruby had. It occurred in the Burgundy Room of the Adolphus Hotel with 2 man named Don Saber R. Tabin.(2/55) Senator was asked during Ruby’s trial whether it was true that Ruby only picked on small men and women who were drunk and beat them up. Senator responded that Ruby had no fear of a person’s size.(2/56) He contended that Ruby would probably not fight brutally. (2257) (1316) Senator had heard rumors since “the trouble” that Ruby was a homosexual and believed such ideas cast a reflection on him since he had lived with Ruby. Senator said he could assure anyone that Ruby was not a homosexual and had a normal man’s interest in women. (2158) (1317) During the period of his acquaintance with Ruby, Senator had no indication of Ruby’s violating the law in any way, such as handling narcotics, allowing employees to practice prostitution, or fencing stolen articles. Ruby operated a very strict business and would allow no disturbances. Senator claimed Ruby’s place of busine was checked very closely by the Dallas police department eve night. (2759) (1818) Ruby always carried at least $2,000 or $3,000 in cash wit him to and from his place of business. He had this money in a sack On each trip he would take a revolver and place it in the bag on to of the money.(2/60) When questioned by the Warren Commissio about Ruby’s banking habits Senator replied that “Ruby’s bank wa his pockets.” (2/61) (1319) Senator advised that during the period he lived next door and with Ruby, he recalled only one out-of-town trip Ruby made when he flew to New York City to talk to officials of the America Guild of Variety Artists (AGVA). Ruby was having trouble wit his competitors over AGVA requirements and did not believe hi competitors were following the rules. He said he felt strongly thi was hurting his business. Senator believed that on this trip, Rub 985 took a dog to Candy Barr in Houston, prior To the best of Senator’s knowledge, Ruby to flying on to New York. made the trip alone and was gone for 3 or 4 days. (2162) (1320) Senator had no information to indic nections with the hoodlum element in Chicago, ate that Ruby had con- Ill. Ruby confided to Senator that he grew up in a very tough neigh saw no evidence of associations between Rubyborhood, but Senator and Chicago hood- lums. (2/63) (1321) In addition to running his clubs, Ruby becam the promotion of a twist board. Prior to November e involved in 22, 1963, he would get up about 8 or 9 a.m. each day and visit various depar in an effort to promote this article. (2164) tment stores (13822) The primary area of questioning of Senator by the Secret Service, Warren Commission and counsel during Ruby’s FBI, trial concerned the sequence of events between November 22, November 24, 1963. Senator was not consistent in his answe 1963 and his first statements, made on November 24, Senator was rs. In extremely vague regarding the events of the 2 previous days. Figur e 1, which follows, shows his various statements and discrepancies. (1323) Figure 1: Chart of statements and their inconsiste ncies. AOQLUDS- QUDM TION 7eA OF “IFT Jojrussg UsYyM oWMoY TTFIs Aqny- "yde ay. 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He worked approxim beck, Tex. years at Sue’s Used Car Lot in Dallas as a salesman.(2/66) ately 2 During World War II he was employed by North American Aviation. (2167 ) In 1978, he was president of Todd Oil Co. and J. R. Todd Oil and Investment Co. (2/68) He was residing in Dallas, Tex. Illegal activities (1825) Todd had an extensive arrest record, but nothing since 1954. e207) He had been arrested and convicted for a variety of offenses in- eluding burglary, transporting explosives, and murder. (2/70) (1826) It has been alleged that Todd was a well-known Dallas safe- eracker(2/77) and known thief and associate of Dallas bookmak- ers.(2172) In his deposition, Todd did admit knowing two Dallas bookmakers, John Eli Stone and Albert Meadows. (2173) He has also been associated with Dallas criminal figures such as Lois Green, Jettie ‘Bass, Nick Cascio and R. D. Matthews. (2174) (1327) Todd told the committee that deLois Green was a “personal friend” whom he had known since approximately 1939.(2/75) When asked about the deLois Green gang, Todd stated that “oang’’ was not the proper word to describe Green and his associates. (2176) Todd de- seribed them as “just a bunch of fellows that were friends.” (2177) Later in his deposition, when questioned by his attorney, Todd indi- cated he was not aware of any association or organization known as the deLois Green gang. (2/78) Association With Organized Crime (1328) Todd admitted in his deposition to the committee that he was zasually acquainted with Sam and Joe Campisi, J oseph C’ vello and Joe fanni, alleged organized crime members in Dallas.(2/79) He also stated that he only knew the Campisis and the Ianni family through their restaurant businesses. (2180) treatment by the Warren Commission (1829) After the notation “Jack, DAS8-2635” was discovered in Jack Ruby’s automobile, the FBI conducted a brief interview of Todd. (2181) A few miscellaneous references to Todd have been found in other FBI reports in Jack Ruby’s FBI file. a (1330) Todd did not testify before the Warren Commission, and Ne was not interviewed by its staff. velationship With Ruby 11831) When Todd was interviewed by the FBI, he stated he was erst introduced to Ruby in the Vegas Club 10 or 12 years earlier. (2182) le explained that the Vegas Club was next door to the B & B Restau- fant which he visited frequently.(2/83) Todd stated he had only been athe Vegas Club two or three times and had visited the Carousel Club me or two times. (2/84) (1332) Todd had often seen Ruby in the B and B Restaurant. (2185) pescribing his relationship to Ruby as “very limited,” Todd stated he has never had any social connections with Ruby and he has no 990 idea of Ruby’s activities, who his associates are, or any of his business dealings.” (2186) He could not recall when he had last seen Ruby. (2817) He did admit, however, that the phone number found in Ruby’s car. DA 8-2635, was his home telephone number. (2/88) (1333) Two FBI reports also linked Ruby to Todd. An FBI report describing an incident in 1953 when Ruby was in the AGVA offices | arguing with Vincent Lee, the AGVA representative, states that Lee said Ruby, Joe Bonds and Todd, “together with other hoodlums and safecrackers,” usually “hung around” Sue’s Used Car Lot, 3400 Live Oak, Dallas, Tex.(2/89) FBI Agent Charles Flynn, after a contact with Ruby on March 11, 1959, listed Todd as an associate of Ruby. (2190) (1834) When Todd was deposed by the committee, he could not re-_ call being interviewed by the FBI, even after being read the FBI re- port of the interview.(2/91) He stated, “To my knowledge, this is the first time I have ever been asked anything about it... . I don’t recall anybody ever asking me about Jack Ruby.” (2192) Todd also claimed his phone number was not DA 8-2635, but was DA 8~-2634. (2193) Later, however, Todd stated he had no idea why his phone number Dray in Jack’s car, and he could not recall Ruby ever calling him. 2194 | (13835) When asked when he first met Ruby, Todd stated it was when Ruby operated the Silver Spur.(2195) Todd said that. “in all proba- bility” he knew Ruby in 1946 and 1947.(2196) (1336) Todd was also questioned about Sue’s Used Car Iot. He in- formed the committee that he had been employed as a salesman at the car lot for approximately 2 years.(2/97) He indicated that as far as he knew, Sue’s Used Car Lot was nothing more than a used-car lot. (2198) He did not recall seeing Ruby there. (2799) (1337) When asked to describe his relationship to Ruby, Todd stated : To straighten the record out, I never said that I knew Ruby other than just by if he walked down the street, I would recognize him or Jack Ruby, if he walked in that door, I would recognize him as Jack Ruby, and that’s it. (2200) (1338) Later, when questioned by his attorney, Todd stated that he] was never a guest at. Ruby’s home or Ruby a guest at his home. (2207) He had no business association with Ruby and did not know of any | of Ruby’s activities other than that of being a club manager. (2202) | (1389) Todd did have some common associates with Ruby—he ad-f mitted knowing James Dolan, R. D. Matthews, and Lewis J.] McWillie. (2203) (1840) Deposition before the House Select Committee on Assassi-} nations. | 991 UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON ASSASSINATIONS 0000000 Federal Building 1100 Commerce Street Room 4B40 Dallas, Texas Tuesday, July ll, 1978 10245 ans a APPEARANCES : JAMES E. McDONALD, Senior Counsel Select Committee on Assassinations Washington, D.C. 20515 JERRY W. BIESEL 161 North Exchange Park Dallas, Texas ALBERT MAXWELL, Committee Investigator Select Committee on Assassinations Washington, D.C. 20515 Oath Administered by BOBBIE GASKILL, Courtroom Deputy for U.S. District Judge W.M. Taylor, Jr. SWORN TESTIMONY OF J.R. TODD 992 BER OnC «By ED NeGes was duly sworn and testified as follows: MR. MCDONALD: Good morning. My name is James McDonald. MR. BIESEL: Mr. McDonald, I am Jerry Biesel. On the record, I would like to say that it is n S now--- MR. MCDONALD: Excuse me, Mr. Biesel, just! let me get through some preliminaries. MR. BIESEL: Okay. Then I want to put ail} t this on the record. ' | MR. McDONALD: All right. My name is James McDonald. We are present in the Federal CIF a ae in Dallas, Texas, to take the Deposition of James Robert | Todd. Present this morning are Mr. Tedd and his ce Jerry Biesel. I have been designated pursuant to House Fesolution 222 and Committee Rule Four as a designated counsel and power to take statements under oath, and the witness has been previously sworn by Bobbie Gaskill, the Courtroom Deputy for U.S. District Court Judge William Inglor, Jr. MR. BIESEL: I think you have get that wrong, there is no such Judge. William Taylor. 993 MR. MCDONALD: Taylor. r MR. BIESEL: William Taylor, Jr. MR. MCDONALD: Thank you. MR. BIESEL: I am Jerry Biesel. I am Mr. Todd's attorney, and I would like the record to reflect | that it is now 11:40, I mean, 10:48, that this eres ee was set at approximately 9:30, and at approximately twent Minutes to ten, Mr. Todd appeared on the scene with his attorney, and that we have spent the better part of the last hour and ten minutes attempting to get Mr. Todd sworn. Mr. Todd and myself, along with the Court Reporter, went to the Federal Court's own fifteen, trying to find a Court Reporter, none were available, and then we went to the U.S. Magistrate, Judge Malloy, to his office, to ask him to swear this witness. Judge Malloy -- We talked to the clerk for Judge Malloy, who then went into Judge Malloy's office and several minutes later, Judge Malloy came to the clerk's desk and told us that he would refuse to swear the witness or any subsequent witnesses, and that they had decided without saying who they are that they would not get involved in this situation. a MR. McDONALD: Mr. Biesel, we appreciate your comment, and this committee regrets the attitude demonstrated by the U.S. Magistrates here in this whys 994 we regret the inconvenience to you and your client and as to this Court Reporter and myself, because we ’ as well have things to do. And we don't like running around also to get witnesses sworn. And we wish the courthouses in this District would show a little more Magistrate to the Congress of the United States. And it's courtesy a situation that we regret as much as you do. EXAMINATION BY MR. McDONALD: would you please state for the record your ful Q Mr. Todd, name? J.R. Todd. And your current address? > 6116 North Central Expressway, Dallas, Texas. And is that your home or business? That's my business. Okay. Would tie please give us your home address? Le) Hed I don't care about giving my home address. I'm sorry. Why do I have to give my home address? Just for the complete record. The 6116 will reach me anytime. And what is the name of the business that All right. you occupy at that address? Todd Oil Company. 995 Okay. And the phone number there is? 369-6585. Area code 214? Correct. Mr. Todd, the statement that you ar2 about to give to us this morning is being given to us voluntarily; is that correct? As far as I am concerned it is voluntary, yeah. In other words, you're not under subpoena at this time? That's correct. Okay. As you know, you do have the right to have your attorney present, which he is sitting to your right? Correct. And you and your counsel have been given a copy of Committee Rules and House Resolution 222, 433 and 760, and you have both had a chance to peruse them; is that correct? We looked at Rule Four, but I don't know about 760. Well, this is the blue packet that I passed out. And I your attention to Rule Four; is that correct? -. directed Correct. your counsel read aloud to you a few minutes And which ago? Correct. you. Mr. Todd, as you note, the entire Okay. Thank 996 Deposition is being recorded, and when we have a transcri we will forward a copy to you and -- Well, to you and your attorney to check it for typographical and grammatic errors. ALE -vugit< That will be done in the near future. Okay. Mr. Todd, what is the nature of your business Todd Oil Company? I drill wells and operate wells. Uh-huh. And how many employees do you have? I only have one employee. Okay. Is it also known as Todd Investment Company? J.R. Todd Oil and Investment Company - is another separate entity. Okay. And would you please describe that for us? Well, I drill wells and operate wells under that name. Okay. And how many employees do you have under that company? Just one. Okay. Do you contract out? Contract everything out. I see. Okay. And how long have you had this business? Since back in the 40's. And has it been at the same address? No, at one time I was at 1022 National Bankers Life 997 Building. Here in Dallas? Yes, sir. Okay. Do you have any partners in this -- Do you have partners in these businesses? Noyaree < You are the sole proprietor? My children and myself are, yes. And who are your children? What does that got to do with this? Well, we're trying to get just a background and identifying information just for our complete understand- ing of--- My oil company doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. Well, it would just be helpful for us to know--- MR. BIESEL: Counsel, I think this goes outside the purview of this investigation, and Mr. Todd | doesn't feel like, you know, getting iato his private | life. He's volunteered to give any information he might | have that would be relevant to this investigation, but | as to his private life he doesn't feel like any investigation of his private life is warranted. MR. McDONALD: All right. Well, we are not investigating his private life, but I will respect 998. his wishes at this point. (Mr. McDonald) Your answer then to the question was that «> your children occupy some place of responsibility in your company, either partners or--- Ownership. Ownership. Okay. And just a couple of more personal questions, if I might. What's your date of birth? December the tenth. Yes, what year? 1919.3 Okay. And where were you born? Groesbeck, Texas. And you are presently married? Yes. And what is your wife's name? Ann. Ann. Okay. Mr. Todd, as you know, you have voluntarily come here this morning to assist this committee in its investigation of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. And in that regard, we are going to be asking you some questions that pertain to an individual by the name of Jack Ruby. e One further identifying bit of information. Are you the same Jack Todd, James Robert Todd, that was interviewe by the F.B.I. in 1963 shortly after the assassination of 999 John F. Kennedy? No, sir. You are not the same one? NO’ Si3.. Were you ever interviewed | by the F.B.I. after the | | assassination? Not to my knowledge. Not to your knowledge or not -- Did you ever live at 2438 Oats Drive? | I sure did. Okay. And you don't recall being interviewed? No, sir. How good is your memory? Fairly good. All right. You don't recall being interviewed on approximately December sixteenth, 1963, by Agent Tom E. Chapoton, C-H-A-P-0O-T-0O-N? In regards to what? In regards to Jack Ruby and the Reais assassination of John F. | Kennedy? | I don't remember, no. I will say this, we have a record that you were interviewed on that day. I have--- You don't recall? 1000 No, sir. Okay. MR. BIESEL: Now, as Mr. Todd's attorney, if you have a copy of that record here, 1 would like to in see it in order to have my client refresh his memory, because that's fifteen years ago, you know. MR. MCDONALD: I understand. I am not at liberty to give you a copy of it because it's part of the under documents that are not subject to disclosure 10 pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act. It's fm Sg li under an exception in the National Archives, but according to the document that I am reading, it's an F.B.L. 302. I don't know if you are familiar with that term, it's an interview form of the F.B.I. You were interviewed on December sixteenth, 1963, in Dallas, and the person interviewed was James Robert Todd at 2438 BLS Oats Drive, Dallas, regarding a notation that was found in Jack Ruby's car that said, "Jack," and then a phone “number, "DA8=2635," which was your phone number at the time, that's how they came to you? No, that wasn't my number. (Mr. McDonald) Let me just say this: This was the phone number and they at that time, fifteen years ago, traced it to you, and that's how the F.B.I. came to interview you? e n — " a oe: re 1001 Well, if he came to interview me, I don't remember it. And that telephone number is almost it, but that wasn't the right number. What was your number at that time? Davis 8-2634. As best I recall it, it was Davis 82634, Okay. Well--- 35 could have been something to Jack, I have no idea. Mr. Todd, at that time, fifteen years ago, this is the “number they found and they traced it to you, and you were interviewed? ~s I don't remember. MR. MCDONALD: You can make a note also present during this Deposition is Committee Investigator Albert weak te * Mr. Maxwell, we are in the process of trying to refresh Mr. Todd's memory. I am looking at an F.B.I. “es 302, you may help us, you have interviewed Mr. Todd before; is that correct? MR. MAXWELL: Yes, uh-huh. MR. MCDONALD: According to the F.B.I. interview, Mr. Todd was interviewed back in December of 1963, and he was located because a number was found in Jack Ruby's car with the notation, “Jack, DA8-2635," and that's how the F.B.I. ultimately ended up talking to Mr. Todd. You're aware of those facts? 1002 MR. MAXWELL: Yes. MR. MCDONALD: Okay. Mr. Todd is having a problem remembering it. THE WITNESS: © ettdon itq=-— MR. BIESEL: Let me ask you a question, Counselor, let me interrupt you. talk about these facts as if they're, you know, You my understanding, though, that the only thing true. It's no personal knowledge, you are looking at you have is that purports to say that these facts are some report so let the record reflect that these statements true, are facts, that's just a supposition on your that these keep referring to these facts, those are part, and you facts that are reported on an instrument that just some you have that someone else quoted. MCDONALD: Let me say this: I started | MR. line of questioning out merely as an this whole bit of information which Mr. Todd now has identifying forgotten. THE WITNESS: I don't recall. don't recall ever being talked to by (Mr. McDonald) You after the assassination of President Kennedy? the F.B.I. this is the first time I have ever been To my knowledge, asked anything about it. 1003 Le) Have you ever been talked to before, excluding Mr. Maxwell, regarding Jack Ruby by any official of the Federal | Government? by Ivaon "ce'recall) it;* no. 10 You don't recall. So, what you are saying is then after the -- You don't recall, or you were or you weren't, yes or no? I don't recall. MR. BIESEL: He says he doesn't recall it. His memory says that he was not, but, you know, it's fifteen years ago again, and, you know, it didn't have any Significance if he was, I assume, is that true, Mr. Todd? | | THE WITNESS: I don't recall anybody ever | asking me about Jack Ruby. | | (Mr. McDonald) I am just saying that we deal with a lot of people involved with this case--- | Yes. | ---and I would say that I find it hard to believe that | you don't remember that within two weeks after the assassination that an F.B.I. Agent -- I can believe you | might not remember the substance, but that an F.B.I. Agent came either to your business or home and interviewed you regarding Jack Ruby, the assassin of the assassin of the President? 1004 MR. BIESEL: You see, Counsel, that's because you're assuming that that report is accurate. MR. McDONALD: Yes, I am assuming that it' accurate. MR. BIESEL: Okay. Then let's assume this witness is under oath and just testified that he does not recall that, and does not believe that occurred, and let's assume that--- MR. McDONALD: I am assuming he's being evasive. MR. BIESEL: Yes, you are assuming he's being evasive, and he's not being evasive. He's being as candid with you as he could possibly be, because it has no significance. What possible significance--- ! MR. McDONALD: That's for us to determine and not for Mr. Todd to determine. I wanted to just | identify him as the same Mr. Todd, and we have reason to believe that we know that he is the same Mr. Todd that was interviewed by--- | MR. BIESEL: You do not know that. | | MR. MCDONALD: Yes, we do, Mr. Biesel. ’ tw MR. BIESEL: You don't know that at all. You have got a report that you're referring to there. He is | Mr. Todd, and he lived on Oats Drive, he will admit 24 that, but he does not recall a meeting with an F.B.I. 1005 Agent concerning the Ruby assassination of Oswald. MR. MCDONALD: Okay. You made your point. MR. BIESEL: Okay. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Mr. Todd, have you ever heard of the Lois Green gang? Yes, sir. Could you give us -- How do you know about the Lois 3 | gang? The terminology, "gang", is just something that was | dreamed up by a bunch of folks. Okay. Y Lois Green was my personal friend. Uh-huh. When did you first meet Mr. Green? About '39. || -!2 1939? Yes. And you're saying the term, "gang", doesn't fit? cee ae eres (shakes head) How would you describe Lois Green? Am I pronouncing it | oe Se correct? | —=—_————. oe —————_ Right, correct. | And we will call them associates or whatever. How would | you describe the group? Just a bunch of guys. A bunch of guys? A bunch of guys doing what? 1006 Just like us sitting right here, a bunch of guys. Uh-huh. Who were they? Do you recall any of the people that were members of this group? You have reference to a gang, but see, no gang... it has never been established in my mind as a gang. There's a bunch of fellows that were friends, and what relation one of them made to the other, I have no knowledge of | Ba that. I think they're called a gang and they're considered by, Nw I would say, law enforcement as a gang, as a group of individuals that were operating either in or on the fringes of the criminal element in Dallas in 1939 or whenever during the years in question. Do you recall who were part of this group? What people were involved? If you tell me their names, I might know them, but I don't know who they were. Welleo=e- I might know a lot of individuals, but whether they were a member of the gang, I never did see their badge. Did you know an individual by the name of Benny Binion, B-I-N-I-O-N? I know the name, yes, sir. How do you know the name? pick up the newspaper and see that, but I know | You can him as a person casually. 1007 Uh-huh. When did you first meet him? Probably back in the '40's,. And what did you read about him in the newspapers? Occasionally, you pick up the newspaper and read somethin , I don't recall what you read. Uh-huh. Well, generally speaking, what kind of news reports were being written about him? That he was going to Vegas. They would print that in the newspaper, someone travellin to Vegas? | I don't recall. You would have to look at the print to see what was in there. I don't recall what was printed in 1940. So, in other words, he was known as a gambler? » Yes. And he was written up in various newspaper articles? Yr YO I don't know that to be a fact, but I would think that would be the assumption. Okay. Do you know an individual by the name of Joe Campisi? I know Joe Campisi. When did you first meet him? Probably in the ‘40's. Okay. How about his brother Sam? I knew his brother, Sam. — eee er ety ae OT ey ee a 1008 Okay. And how did you come to meet them? Their daddy had a restaurant, and it later turned into a club, and it was a place where everybody went. Uh-huh. And what was the nature of your relationship with the Campisi's? Just go there and eat. With them? Not necessarily. I would go in there, you know, like any other restaurant. He was the owner, and I would go in there and sit down and eat. What was the name of the restaurant? I don't recall. They had one over on Central years ago, and they had one over on Knox Street, and then they have got the one they have got now. Which is the one they have now? I believe, it's called Phe Egyptian. And do you recall -- And which street is the Egyptian on? I believe, it's on Mockingbird. How about Joe Civello, Joseph Civello? I met Joe Civello, yes, very casually. And where? RY | I don't have any idea. When did you meet him? 24 Probably in the ‘40's. And you're saying that your relationship with him was 25 1009 casual? Very casual. What do you mean by, "very casuai"? Like I met Mr. Maxwell here, I would know him again Lt saw him again. I would know he's Mr. Maxwell, that would be casual. Okay. How about Johnny Grizzaffi, G-R-I-2-Z2-A-~F-F-I? > Yeah, I know Johnny. How do you know him? Very casual. What do you mean by, "very casual“? I'd know him if he walked in this room. Okay. When is the last time you saw him? Probably ten, twelve, fifteen years ago. Is he alive today? I have no idea.» Did you have any business relationship with him? No. Joe Ianni? Yeah, I knew Joe. I-A-N-N-I? Yeah, I know Joe. And what's your relationship with him? He had a restaurant and I would go in there and eat. What was the name of his restaurant? ——————eaoo—————————— .- eS Eee 1010 Iann's. Isn't he related to you by marriage? Pardon? Is he related to you by marriage? } No, my son is married to his daughter. Okay. That's correct. Are these individuals that we have just named, are they considered -- have they been a termed in the press and by law enforcement circles as Crime", in the Dallas area? | "Organized I wouldn't have any idea. | You have never seen that? When you spoke of reading | about Benny Binion in the newspaper, have you seen Lt in that context? MR. BIESEL: Counsel, I think that's too vague a question for my client to be supposing about how these people have been characterized by newspaper account MR. MCDONALD: Well, I'm asking if he's aware. MR. BIESEL: I don't think that's a proper question because, you know, he might read it, he might give it some credence, might be a New Yoru City mucin don't think that's a proper question, and I will instruct him not to answer that question. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. Mr. Todd, in this committee's inquiry into Jack Ruby, and as you know, the reason why 1011 you have been asked to come here this morning is because | we feel you can help us and give us some insight into | Jack Ruby, the person. In part of our overall investigation, not only this committee, but other people who have been looking at the Kennedy assassination have looked at Jack | Ruby, one of the areas that they have focused on, was what is called or has been termed, "The Organized Crime" | move into Dallas in'47 and "48, in the various writings c the people that have reviewed the Kennedy assassination ahd have written in books that you can buy in a bookstore, | this is an area that they talk about, "The Organized | Crime" move into Dallas, Texas, in '46 and '47. So, 43 hoping that perhaps you can give us some information in t pat area. | Namely, do you know a person by the name o Paul Roland Jones? I did at one time. Okay. When did you meet him? by Back in the '40's. Uh-huh. Do you know specifically when in the '40's? ! I have no idea. | Well, would it have been in '46, '47 area? my CG It could have been. I am not for sure. | Le) And what was the nature of your relationship with him? | MR. BIESEL: Let me interrupt you a minut ! 1012 We are going back in some fifteen years prior Counsel. assassination, at the time Kennedy was a to Kennedy's teenager, a long time prior to Ruby ever being in Dallas, | as far as I know. oon euro, Pune wasted SAL enee time in '46-'47. MR. BIESEL: Well, I appreciate it, and lI want you to ask any questions that you feel is relevant, : tie it a little closer to Mr. Ruby, you but if we could know, I want this tied down to Mr. Ruby. MR. McDONALD: I understand. | This is getting far afield | MR. BIESEL: about '46 and '47, because we haven't even talking that time that Mr. Todd was acquainted with indicated at Mr. Ruby. MR. McDONALD: I appreciate your comments, we will be tying it into Ruby. This is a background and have to cover regarding Mr. Ruby. He was area that we Dallas, Ruby was, at this time, and as I tried present in in my preface remarks that this is the reason to give you \ dealing in a time span fifteen years for these questions Prior cole assassination. So, Mr. Todd, I ask you, what was the (Mr. McDonald) nature of your relationship with Paul Roland Jones? No relationship with him at all. 1013 You knew him? Yeah. How did you know him? Somebody introduced me to him. And how often did you have an occasion to socially or whatever meet with him? It was so vague, I wouldn't remember, probably three times or four times forever. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Paul Roland Jones? I have no idea. Okay. How about an individual by the name of Paul Labriola, also known as -- He had a nickname of Needle Nose, do you know him? Not to my knowledge. Well, have you ever heard of the person? I think he asked me one time if I knew him, but I don't know him. You don't? I wouldn't know him if he walked in the door. You would not? Okay. Danny Lardino? Nowors iss You don't know him? No, sir. Have you ever heard of the name? NG 2c... 1014 Marcus Lipsky? No. L-I=P-S-K-Y. James Weinberg? No. You're saying no, you never heard of them? You do not ~now them or you have never heard of ‘them? 7 have never heard of them, Never heard of them, which means you don't know them? That's right. | to Okay. Pat Manning or Pat Manno, M-A-N-N-O? Not to my knowledge. Well, in other words--- That name doesn't do nothing for me. Jack Knapp, also known as Romeo Natti? That name seems familiar, but I don't know. I have no idea. How about George Butler? I know George. How do you know George? He's a policeman here. A policeman here in Dallas? And how did you come to know him? I don't know. Pardon? I have no idea how I come to know him. 1015 | You don't remember the first time you met him? | No, sir. | How many times did you have contact with him? I wouldn't have any idea. Uh-huh. What was the nature of your contact with him? I have no idea what that would be. He was a policeman, | | he was probably doing his job. Is it possible that Butler was one of the -- You have a number of arrests during that time period, '41l through | '54, could it -- Is it possible that Butler was one of | the arresting officers on any one of the arrests that you || had during that time span? In probability, it could be. I have no idea. If they | || arrest you, they arrest you, I don't take their numbers and badges. | Do you know whether -- To your knowledge, do you know if | Jack Ruby knew George Butler or had any dealings with | him? | I wouldn't have any way of knowing it. Okay. How about Steve Guthrie? Steve Guthrie was a Sheriff here. Did you know him? Yes. Did you know him personally as opposed to knowing who he was because he was the Sheriff? In other words, did you | 1016 personal contacts with him? | have contacts I ever | Just when he arrested me, that's all the had. Did he personally arrest you? Yes. | And what did he arrest you for? Probably vagrancy. Can you recall what year? I don't know what year Whenever he was elected Sheriff, | | : was elected. | he Do you know if Ruby, Jack Ruby, had any involvemen Okay. | with Steve Guthrie? no Wee | I have do you know an individual by the name : Okay. Mr. Todd, of James Henry Dolan .? I met Jim Dolan , yes. When did you first meet Jim Dolan:.? Probably in the 50 a. And what was the nature of your meeting with him? Okay. No nature, somebody introduced me. At a restaurant? of whether it was at a restaurant. : I have no idea say -- To your knowledge, was Dolan associated Could we | with Lois Green? I wouldn't have any way of knowing. 1017 _Why wouldn't you have any way of knowing? —_ OPensmee ‘I never asked Lois if he: knew. him. Well, do you know if he was in fact, whether Lois told you or not, did you know that or did you have any inkling that Dolan was part of that group? I wouldn't have any way of knowing. Well, so your answer then is you did not know or he was? I don't know. How well did you know Dolan ? Very very casual. And what do you mean by, “very very casual"? I probably in my lifetime have ever seen him over four times or five. And what would be the circumstances when you saw him four or five times? Would it be--- Pass him on the street. Did you ever have any lengthy conversations with him? It's according to how you classify lengthy. "How are you "How have you been?" “How's everything?" "Good to see you." Uh-huh. And that's it? (nods head) you know what Dolan: did when he lived in Dallas? Did I never asked him. familiar with a place: called Sue's Car Lot? Are you 1018 Sue's? Yes. Yes. Okay. What is Sue's Car Lot? What is it and where is it Sue's Car Lot doesn't exist any more. Okay. When did it exist? Oh, back in the '40's, I guess. And was Sue's Used Car Lot as the name would suggest, a used car lot? Pardon me? In other words, what was Sue's Car Lot? Sue's Car Lot was a car lot. That's what I asked, but it didn't come out that way. And where was that located? Over on Live Oak Street. In Dallas? Yes. How often did you go to Sue's Used Car Lot? I worked there. You worked there? As what? As a salesman. How long did you work there? I don't know. Probably two years. A year and a half. Do you recall what years? No. 1019 Well, was it early '40's, during the war, after the war? I don't remember. Well, did it do a pretty good business? Yeah, I would say they did a fair business, yes. Okay. Let's see if we can pin the time down. During World War II, were you in the Service? No. Do you recall whether you worked there in the early during World War II? I don't recall. Well, do you remember what you did during the early "40's Do you remember what you did during the war? I worked at North American. North American? Aviation. During the entire war years? I was working there in '41 when the war broke out. And how long did you work there? Quite awhile. Two, three years? Could have been. Okay. MR. BIESEL: Let me interrupt you just a minute, Counsel, in order to make this a little more definitive, if I might. Mr. Todd, while you were at ss ee —_——_—_ O 1020 Sue's Used Car Lot, were you working under the name J.R. Todd? THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. BIESEL: And did you have Social Security and withholding taxes? THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. MR. BIESEL: Are those still available to the government, if they wanted? MR. MCDONALD: Well, I can answer that question, no, they are not. Social Security doesn't keep those kind of records, and I am just trying to pin it down as far as years. I'm not trying to get the exact dates, but I think, it's reasonable to think that we can perhaps just work our way to figure whether it was during | -- if it was not during World War II, we know it's betwee '45 and '50. Would that be a reasonable time frame to be talking about? (The Witness) It could have been, but I am not stating. I don't recall. You know, my guess would be as good as yours. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. During the time you worked at Sue's Car Lot, did Jack Ruby ever come there? If he did, I never saw him. Well, did you know him? Did you know Jack Rupy in 1946, 1947-2 1021 In all probability, I did, yes. 0 Do you recall him coming to Sue's Car Lot? » I don't ever recall him coming to Sue's Car Lot. 0 Did any other individuals come to the car lot? by We was in business, there was a lot of people coming. Do you recall whether Ruby used to come there on a regula basis, not just once or twice? I just told you I never saw him there in my life. Uh-huh. Okay. Mr. Todd, do you know an individual by the name of John Eli Stone? Yes, sir. Okay. How do you know him? Fie es -BE ee DF cBe ea8eee a Like you know Maxwell. Uh-huh. In other words, you know him casually? 2ee. That's not like I know Maxwell, but like you know Maxwell Yeah. And how long have you known him? Since in the '40's. Okay. Do you still know him? I'd know if he walked in the door. When's the last time you saw him? Probably a year or so ago. Okay. Is he still engaged in bookmaking, do you know? I have no idea. r 1022 6 Okay. How about James Woodrow Stone, Jim Stone? Who? Stone, Jim Stone? You've lost me there. Okay. Albert Mesidows? Al Meadows? Le) Yeah. y - Yeah, I know hin. 0 How long have you known him? Since in the '40's. Do you still know him? Yes, sir. He is still alive? As far as I know. When's the last time you saw him? Probably four, five months ago, six. Pardon? About four, five, six months ago. Okay. What business is he in? Is he a bookmaker? I don't think so, but I never asked him. Okay. How about the fellow I mentioned first, Stone? Stone is known as a bookmaker? MR. BIESEL: I don't think it's proper forfi Mr. Todd to characterize these people as bookmakers or whatever, that's for the newspaper reporters and writers 1023 to characterize. I don't think it's proper for Mr. Todd to characterize anybody as a bookmaker or--- MR. MCDONALD: Well, okay. That's true. (Mr. McDonald) But do you know them as -- these individuals as making book or involved in--- I don't know them like that either. Okay. Did Jack Ruby have any association with these individuals that we just mentioned? I wouldn't have any idea. In other words, you were never present with any of these individuals? Not to my knowledge. Well, I understand what you're saying when you say not to your knowledge, but--- I want you to understand that because, you know, if si saw Jack Ruby, I don't pay no attention if somebody's standing there next to him. Everybody on the street would know him from one end of Commerce Street to the other, but, I mean--- When did you first meet Jack Ruby? it was over on Ervey Street, whenever he Best I remember Silver Spur or whatever that place is called. had the When did you meet him? record will show that he had the Silver 24 Whenever the 25 Spur, I don't know. 1024 That would be early 1950? I don't know. Well, would it be safe to assume that you first met Ruby sometime during, we'll say, the early '50's, late 46182 Have you known him that long? Whenever they had 3.2 beer here, that's all I know. When was that? I don't know. If I knew that, I would know what year L¢ was. Do you recall where you first met him? I believe, the first time I ever met him was when he had the Silver Spur. Did he own a place called the Vegas Club? I heard rumors that he did, but I don't know that to be aehact. Okay. How did you come to meet him at the Silver Spur? I would go in there like everybody else would. Uh-huh. Did you get to know him well? No, sir. How often would you have contact with him? If I went in the Silver Spur, I would see him and speak to him, if you call that contact. Did you ever back in the, we'll say, the early 50's, doa. you recall a restaurant called the B & B on Oaklawn 24 Street? 25 1025 Yes, sir. Did you used to frequent that? On occasions, yes, sir. Do you remember whether the Vegas Club was in the vicinit of the B & B restaurant? About three doors down. Do you recall ever meeting Ruby in the Vegas Club? Meeting him in the Vegas Club? | Uh-huh. If I went in the Vegas Club, and he was there, he would say, “Hello," that's about it. I never sat there specifically to meet him, no. Did you ever go to the Carousal Club when Ruby owned the | Carousal Club? . | Where was the Carousal Club? | MR. MCDONALD: Al, where was it? MR. MAXWELL: On Commerce. THE WITNESS: Here? MR. MAXWELL: Across from the Adolphus Hotel. THE WITNESS: Yes, I have been in the Carousal. (Mr. McDonald) And did you see Ruby when you would frequent the Carousal? ever say that I frequented it. I said I have I didn't 1026 been in the Carousal Club, and I have probably been in there three times in my life. Uh-huh. How about the Singapore Club? Where was that? MR. MAXWELL: I don't know. | McDonald) Somewhere in downtown Dallas? | (Mr. I don't recall it. Okay. Well, during the years that you knew Ruby, prior 1963, how would you describe yow relationship with him? to To straighten the record out, I never said that I knew other than just by if he walked down the street, I | Ruby would recognize him as Jack Ruby, and if he walked in door, I would recognize him as Jack Ruby, and that's that it. / You're testifying that you never had any conversations with him beyond a casual--- Beyond a casual conversation, correct. we're trying to determine is why -- and I know we Oo What started out the Deposition with the discussion, but have phone number of the name Jack that was found on a sli the of paper in Ruby's car, it was your number, and so, the question is: Why would Jack Ruby have your name and number on a piece of paper in his car? I have no idea. Okay. You can think of no reason? 1027— No reason whatsoever. Did he ever call you? Did Ruby ever telephone you? Not to my knowledge. Well, do you remember that he did? No, sir. Okay. But it's possible that he could have, you just don't remember? It's possible. MR. BIESEL: That question, Counselor, "Is it possible, Mr. Ruby," anything is possible. Mr. Todd would have no way of knowing. Mr. Todd would only know whether or not he talked to Mr. Ruby. (Mr. McDonald) Okay. And you don't recall talking to Mr. Ruby over the telephone? No, sir. And you can give us no reason why that slip of paper was found in Ruby's car? No, sir. And your testimony is that your relationship with Ruby was merely a casual hello? Thatipse right; Okay. Did you know any of Ruby's relatives, his brother, Sam, Sam Ruby? Seemed like he was pointed out, but I don't think I ever met him. 1028 10 How about Earl Ruby? Y Who? .@) Earl, his brother, Earl Ruby? I don't know. in Eva Grant? Grant, if it's the one I am thinking of, used to take Eva tickets at the club, but I don't know. At what club? The one out there on Oaklawn. The Vegas Club? Yeah. eval chant would--- I think that's true, yeah. going to ask you these questions. Did you have any I'm during 1959 that Jack Ruby took a trip to Cuba? knowledge Not to my knowledge. other words, what you're saying is, you don't know? In I wouldn't have any way of knowing. you know whether Jack Ruby was involved in the numbers Do I wouldn't have any way of knowing. anyone that you think would know the answers to Is there some cf the questions I am asking you? No. words, any of your friends? Did you have at In other friends who knew Ruby better than you did? | that time any 1029 Well, if they knew him at all, they would know him better than me. Did you know an individual by the name of Ralph Paul? Not to my knowledge. In other words, you don't remember him, if you did know him? Poet er eont. How about George Senator? I know George Senator. How do you know him? I bought some clothes from him. Uh-huh. When is the last time you bought some clothes from him? A year or two. Uh-huh. How did George Senator come to sell you some clothes? I understand he sells clothes out of the back of his car? Correct. And how did you come to be in contact with him? Just probably sitting down and he came in with some clothes, and I bought them. I see. Can you recall where you were? Not right offhand, no. When is the last time you saw him? Oh, probably four to six months ago. 1030 Can you recall where you saw him? Greenville Avenue. Greenville Avenue here in Dallas? Uh-huh. At a specific spot, a restaurant or a bar or what? At a parking lot. Was he setting up shop, so to speak? He was getting in his car. Getting in his car. How about R\D. Hatnews? I know R\D. | How do you know him? Casual. t When was the first time you met R\D. Mathews? Seems like it was right after the war. What kind of business was Mathews in? I never asked him. When you say, "Casual", what do you mean by that? Just casual, how would you describe casual? Well, I'm asking you. I'm trying to get you to give me a little assistance here in describing it. Lew 5 ; . How about Louis McWillie? Leo's Louis. McWillie? Yes. Lents I know teuts McWillie. 1031 0 What's the nature of your relationship with him? Y Very casual. Okay. And when's the last time you saw Mr. McWillie? Probably fifteen years ago, eighteen. How about Joe Bons? Yeah, I know Joe. Casual relationship? Very very casual. When's the last time you saw him? Probably '49. Uh-huh. How about wrnie Patrick? I don't Helieve 60. Does the name sound familiar? No. Dave Yaras, Sam Yaras, Y-A-R-A-S? No. How about Johnny Patrono? Yeah, I know Johnny. How did you know him? Just kind of casual. Uh-huh. Where would you see him? See him at the Iann's restaurant or Joe's restaurant. Would you ever sit down and speak with him? 24 Lots of times. kind of conversation? What would you talk about? 25 What 1032 Whether he was losing weight or gaining weight, or how he was feeling. To your knowledge, during the '60's and '50's, do you know whether it be by hearsay or direct personal knowledge, rumor, scuttlebutt, whether Jack Ruby was | or whatever, an informant for the Dallas Police Department? I wouldn't have any way of knowing. Well, I think you might have had, you know, just general talk among the bar talk and stuff like that, just loose but had that ever come up to your knowledge | conversation, Not to my knowledge, no. I mean, I think, you would have had a lot of casual relationships that that might have come out in conversatio so. | Not necessarily an interview with Mr. dseuare you mentioned | Okay. In had met Morgan Brown, I assume, you know Mr. that you Brown, Mr. Morgan Brown? asked me if I knew Morgan Brown, I told them I had They casually, that's what I told you, it was in the met one and they said that was the one in the same. oil business, And when was this? When did you meet him? Uh-huh. some time ago. I don't recall exactly. I mean- Oh, back Well, how much is “some time"? Six months? Probably six months, a year. Uh-huh. And where did you meet him? 1033 i aon*t recall. Well, was it here in Dallas? | Yeah. And what kind of meeting did you have with him? “Jack, this is Morgan Brown. Hello." That's it. Who introduced you? He asked me the same question, I couldn't remember who it | was. Was it in a bar, restaurant or office? MR. BIESEL: Counsel, again, now, we're talking about what happened here six months ago. And | again, we have been talking about things that have been | fifteen years before the assassination. Now, we're ealking about things that happened fifteen years after. I see | ope little relevance MR. to McDONALD: the investigation. Well, Counsel, it is | relevant. I'm not trying to take up your time or Mr. | Todd's time. MR. BIESEL: Well, we don't have the | information, of course, that you have available to you, and so, therefore, things that appear not to be relevant MR. McDONALD: Let me assure you, I wouldn't be sitting here asking a question, if I didn't think it 24 was relevant to our inquiry. And we are almost completed 125 | | | 1034 MR. BIESEL: All right. MR. MCDONALD: So, if you will bear with me. We're getting back to Mr. Brown, Morgan (Mr. McDonald) Brown. was so casual I don't recall if I told him. It have -- What kind of conversation did you have And did you with him? What do you normally say when you meet somebody? You didn't talk about oil business or anything? was informed about the oil business, and I was Well, he informed he was in the oil business, so-~-~ which I asked you before, but it's One final question, we're trying to get an understanding that something that to your knowledge, would Jack Ruby have is again: Why, phone number on a piece of paper in his your name and car? I would have no way of knowing. In 1963? MR. MCDONALD: Okay. I have no further questions. MR. BIESEL: I have some questions I want to put on the record. MR. McDONALD: Okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION 1035 | | BY MR. BIESEL: | Le) Mr. Todd, we have been questioning this*morning, we have | gone from 1940's to the 1970's in regard to who you know in Dallas County, Texas. Let me ask you, | during the period of time that you knew Mr. Ruby, was he ever a guest in your home or you | a guest in his? | Y No, sir. Did you ever know Mr. Ruby to have any activities other than just a club owner, an operator? That's all I ever heard of him do. Did you have any business association with him at all? No, sir. a ee le Other than just a casual greeting on the street or seeing him in his clubs, did you have any contact with him at all? | No, sir. All right. They characterize what they call the Lois Green gang, were you aware that there was any ers or association actual of that in nature? No, sir. Now, did ———————————————————————————— Sue's Used Cars that they talk about, was this any kind of notorious hangout or anything like that? | Was this a little car lot run by a woman on Live Oak Street? As far as I know, that's what it was. | | 1036 |Q Well, you do know, don't you? Le 1 A I do. 9 You sold cars there? iA “ghat's right. They have gone through and asked you a bunch in 1 Q All right. of people who you know, I guess, would you say of names you meet many people in your business? , A Quite a few. Would it be possible for you to meet someone fifteen Q and not pay any attention to them when you met years ago and, you know, maybe meet someone and not remember them that you met them? A Very possible. All right. Now, the Campisi's, there was some |Q ee about the Campisi's. Do you know them conversation through their restaurant business? A Yes. And other than the fact that before your son Q All right. into the Ianni family, what was your connection married with Joe Ianni? him. He was in the restaurant business. I 1 A I just knew would go in there and eat. I was a little boy, you carried me in his Q In fact, when restaurant to eat on occasion? A Probably. 1037 MR. BIESEL: That concludes this Deposition. Thank you very much. (Whereupon, at 12:00 p.m., the proceedings in the above-entitled matter were closed.) once eee tr a a a = SS 1038 CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER | I, CODY C. BLAKESLEE, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, |do hereby certify that the testimony of the witness which | appears in the foregoing deposition was taken by me in |shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition was taken, and further that I am not | ||a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed | by the parties thereto, or financially or otherwise interested | ae the outcome of the action. | | CODY C. BLAKESLEE | Certified Shorthand Reporter 24 25 1039 I have read the foregoing pages, 1 through 47, inclusive, and they are a true and accurate record of my testimony therein recorded. | J.R. TODD Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of POLS?8S Notary Public My Commission Expires: 1040 xv. Irwin Signey Weiner Biographical Summary ' ) Irwm Signey Weiner was born on March 6, 1916, in Chicago, — lil., the sen of Leon Weiner, a bookmaker who was shot to death in a murder-suicide incident in Chicago. Weiner has been described as 5 feet 514 inches, 160 pounds, stocky with blue eyes and brown hair. In 1970, he was residing in Niles, Ill. He had never served in the mili- tary and had no felony record. (2204) (1342) Weiner’s connections to organized crime were a dominant, if not pervasive, element in his life, and they included both direct links to the highest levels of organized crime nationally and in Chi- cago, and less definitive relationships with seemingly legitimate activi- ties. In a Washington Post article, he was characterized as follows: “... Irwin Weiner is thought to be the underworld’s major financial figure in the Midwest.” (2205) Almost all documentation concerning Weiner contains references to known organized crime members, and a comprehensive list of his associates would include a significant num- ber of the major organized crime figures in the United States. (2206) Treatment by the Warren Commission (1843) The only reference to Irwin Weiner by the Warren Commis- sion occurs in the Commission’s examination of Jack Ruby’s telephone records, which indicated a call from Ruby to Weiner (Chicago num- ber SH 38-6865) on October 26, 1963. (2207) Ruby was never questioned | about this call; Weiner was never questioned at all. This omission 1s consistent with the Commission’s overall failure to investigate possible organized crime connections. (1844) It was difficult, if not impossible, to determine if Irwin Weiner had any legitimate source(s) of income, since many of his business positions were primarily fronts or conduits for illegal activi- ties. A February 1969 newspaper clipping characterized Weiner as the mob’s foremost front man. (2208) Weiner was ostensibly in the bail bonding and insurance businesses, acting both as a broker for other companies and on his own behalf. (2209) (1345) While Weiner’s social position within organized crime circles was undoubtedly high, his status in the general community was un- known, as was his overall financial position. An indication of Weiner’s wealth may be found in a 1963 FBI report, which states that Weiner] and his associate, Sol Schwartz, may have received up to $1 million in§ broker fees for negotiating Teamsters bonds. (2210) Weiner stated that he received several hundred thousand dollars for writing a Team-§ sters bond in the late 1950’s, (2211) following the passage of the Lan- drum-Griffin Act. A 1960 newspaper clipping stated that from Novem- ber 1958 until November 1959, Weiner and two associates wrote over $1 million in bail bonds, while 30 agents working under Weiner wrote another $6 million. (2272) (1346) Weiner necessarily needed political and law enforcement con- nections, and FBI files indicate several instances of bribery and re- lated pressures by Weiner. A 1972 report notes an alleged payoff to the police in Niles, Ill., for their cooperation. (22/3) A 1974 FBI Airtel reports an alleged bribe by Weiner to an assistant U.S. Attorney in 1041 Chicago to have organized crime figure Sam prison. (22/4) Battaglia released from (1347) Weiner had a very close relationship Phil” Alderisio, whom Weiner had known since with Felix “Milwaukee Alderisio was a Midwestern organized crime he was 13. (2215) figure. FBI files note that Weiner became the “caretaker” of Alderisio’s intere in 1971 (2276) and that Weiner had access to some sts after his death lieved to be in Alderisio’s possession at his death stolen jewelry be- stated that he and Alderisio were partners in a food . (2217) Weiner poration and a real estate business, (2218) The short shortening cor- _ was closed by a Chicago judge in August 1961, (2219) amid ening company that it was employing illegal force to sell its products. (2220allegations and Alderisio had many meetings with other notorious organ ) Weiner figures, and Alderisio physically threatened at least one indiv ized crime idual on - Weiner’s behalf. (2227) (1848) The most lucrative relationship between Weiner and ganized crime seemed to be with the Teamsters Union, particularor- ly with James R. Hoffa and Allen Dorfman. They and Weiner are con- sistently grouped together by the FBI in their files, with Weiner’s back- ground and abilities as an insurance broker and bail bondsman ap- parently useful in manipulating the Teamsters Union Pension Funds to the advantage of the three as well as many others. . (1349) The most well known of these endeavors involved a large ($900,000) loan by the Central States, Southeast, and Southwest Areas Pension Fund (2222) to Gaylur Products, Inc., a New Mexico company with several subsidiaries. (2223) It allegedly manufactured children’s toys and other plastic products such as pails. Weiner was listed as the president of this company, with Roland deAngeles as vice presi- dent. The loan was negotiated by Weiner through Allen Dorfman. Reportedly, this company was fraudulent and merely a “front to ‘permit business and plane trips to South America for Teamsters offi- cials and ‘hoodlum elements’.” (2224) In February 1974, Weiner was indicted, with six other individuals including DeAngeles and Dorf- man, for the fraudulent use of over $1.4 million of Teamsters funds in connection with Gaylur Products, Inc. (2225) 'The_ prosecution’s seemingly strong case crumbled when its key witness, Daniel Siefert, was brutally murdered on September 27, 1974, just before the trial was Peheduled to begin.(2226:) Weiner was subsequently acquitted. (2227 ) The FBI conducted an extensive investigation into Siefert’s death. Weiner was considered a prime suspect, but the case was never satis- factorily solved. (2228 i350) The ae elite also used Weiner’s talents. by involving him and his many corporate entities in the bonding of epee West ‘chapters across the nation. (2229) Weiner’s abilities are also evi is m the bonding of Teamsters-financed projects such as hotels, mies an other businesses. (2230) These activities have linked Weiner ae pro]- ects in many cities, including Miami and Las Vegas. a reat aa ‘and bonding of the Dallas Cabana was apparently hand oa ‘s M4 Weiner’s bonding associates in Chicago, Sol Schwartz. (2232) eli ’ no indication that Weiner has had any direct business linkto s ae (1351) Weiner has allegedly also been involved in yore Pi1 legal activities in the Chicago area. One example was defrauding 1042 the national welfare and medicare systems located in Chicago through the manipulation of funds and pharmacists and the deliberate burning of medicare clinics for sham insurance claims. (2232) Weiner had bee linked to the arson of restaurants and nightclubs, resulting in insurance fraud. (2233) A 1962 FBI memorandum refers to Weiner as being 1 control of concessions in the Park District of Chicago, thereby receiv- ing kickbacks and payoffs. (2234) A 1973 report states that Weiner was handling all the skimmed money from Las Vegas for Chicago’s organized crime community. (2235) (1352) Weiner’s organized crime links extended to Cuba and to Santos Trafficante. Weiner admitted knowing Trafficante and meetin him in both Cuba and Florida. (2236) He had spoken to him as recentl as 1977.(2237) A 1962 FBI memorandum from Herbert J. Miller, Jr. also reflects this tie: For example, Weiner has boasted, and those who were in the know in Cuba have confirmed, that for his services to Phil Alderisio-Santos Trafticante, etc., he was given a substantial interest in the Deauville Gambling Casino and the Capri Gambling Casino in Havana. When Weiner last talked about this he was crying about the loss of a vast fortune occasioned by Castro. (2238) Weiner denied ever holding any interest in Cuban gambling casin (2239) or losing any money as a result of Castro’s takeover. (2240) (1353) In April or May 1960, Weiner reportedly made a trip t Havana with Allen Dorfman, Charles Bray, and Stewart Hopp (2241) to “set up various agency and company relationships.’ (2242) Weiner admitted making several trips to Cuba in 1958 or 1959 but stated they were pleasure trips.(2243) When asked about th aforementioned trip, Weiner acknowledged that it was made in rela tion to an insurance company that these individuals had formed. (2244 (1354) Weiner had been arrested only a few times for someone a involved as he was in criminal activities.(2245) A charge of auto mobile acecessory theft in 1934 had been dismissed. (2246) A 197 FBI report notes an arrest in Fort Worth, Tex., in 1936 for “investiga tion.” (2247) A 1951 arrest for bookmaking resulted in a sentence 0 2 years probation and a $1,250 fine.(2248) In 1964, Weiner was ac quitted of a Federal extortion charge.(2249) More recently he wa acquitted in the 1974-75 Teamsters fraud case. (2250) (1355) Relationship with Ruby.—The only definite and documentec contact between Weiner and Jack Ruby was the 12-minute telephon call from Ruby to Weiner on Saturday, October 26, 1963, at 12:07 p.m§ (2251) The Warren Commission inferred that this call was related to Ruby’s 1963 labor problems concerning amateur nights at Dallag nightclubs, (2252) although it did not completely investigate the cirj cumstances of the call. (1356) On November 27, 1968, Weiner had refused to explain th call’s details to the FBI. (2253) He told the committee that FBI agent had contacted his daughter in order to leave a message for him an had frightened her, thus causing Weiner’s recalcitrant attitude whe the agents spoke to him.(2254) The FBI made no further attempt interview Weiner. (2255) 1043 (1857) The Ruby FBI files contain information that Irwin Weiner told an organized crime associate that he knew Jack Ruby but had refused to discuss this matter with the FBI. (2256) (13858) In 1974, a private investigator seeking these details threatened by Weiner during a telephone conversation. was Sequent investigator was told in January 1978 that the (2257) A sub- call was more than that of a stranger who needed help with his nightclub, and the call had nothing to do with labor problems, the American Guildthat Variety Artists, or national security interests. This investigator was of also told that Weiner and Ruby had been friends, had been acquainted for some time, and had spoken in person and by telephone on numer- ous occasions. (2258) During his May 1978 executive session testimony before the committee, Weiner stated that he might have told these individuals anything, as he was not under oath(2259) and always hed to reporters. (2260) Lestimony Before the Committee (1359) In his committee testimony, Weiner offered the following ex- planation of the October 26 call: Jack Ruby called me. Evidently he had a nightclub in Dallas, Tex. He had a striptease night; 1 night a week he had an amateur striptease. Some union that was affiliated with entertainers stopped him. They asked him to stop because the amateur entertainers were not members of the union. He stopped and another competitor of his opened up. He called me and wanted to know if I would write a bond. He was looking to get an injunction. The lawyer told him if he got an injunction he would have to put up a bond. He asked me if I would do that and I told him no. Then he told me he was going to file a lawsuit. That was the extent of our conversation. It was just in rela- tion to that. I never heard from him since and I have never heard from him prior to that. (2267) Weiner stated that this was the extent of their conversation, (2262) although the telephone records list the call as being 12 minutes in length. The committee did not find any other evidence that Ruby was contemplating litigation to resolve the labor problems with his com- petitors. (1860) Weiner guessed that Jack Ruby called him because of Weiner’s acquaintance with Jack’s brother, Earl Ruby. (2263) Karl Ruby told the FBI on November 26, 1963, that he had gone to high ‘school in Chicago with Irwin Weiner, and that he “had no knowledge that Weiner knew his brother Jack, but may have had a speaking acquaintance.” (2264) When questioned by the committee, Earl Ruby did not mention that he had advised his brother to call Weiner in 1963. (2265) ; (1361) In his committee testimony, Weiner acknowledged going to school with Earl Ruby and said that he might have met Jack Ruby four or five times in his entire life,(2266) but he was not sure when their last contact had occurred. 1044 (1862) Mike Shore, a Californian involved in the entertainment field, (2267) also attended school with Weiner and Earl Ruby,(2268) and he and Weiner had been involved in a number of business transac- tions. (2269) Jack Ruby also called Shore numerous times in 1963 to seek help with his labor problems,(2270) including calls in the days before and after the October 26 call to Weiner. Weiner stated that Shore never mentioned to him the calls from Ruby.(2271) Shore may have prompted Ruby’s call to Weiner, however, by mentioning the latter’s name in one of his 1963 telephone conversations with Ruby. “Ruby asked if he should call Weiner about the trouble he was having with AGVA but Shore replied, ‘What can he do?’ Shore did not know if Ruby did call Weiner.” (2272) (Earl Ruby worked with Shore fol- lowing the Oswald shooting to raise defense funds and to secure an attorney.) (2273) (1863) Since Weiner and Ruby both had associations with organized crime and labor figures, it is possible that they had common associates, although no instances have arisen wherein Ruby and Weiner actually were found to be in contact as a result of any common associates. (1364) One possible link involves Jack Ruby’s association and ac- | quaintance with Paul Dorfman, a key figure in the organization and solidification of the coalition between organized crime members, the Teamsters Union, and Hoffa. In 1940, Dorfman became head of the Waste Material Handlers Union in Chicago; Ruby had briefly served as a union organizer under Dorfman (for approximately 2 months), having held that position before Dorfman took over. (2274) Dorfman clearly remembered Ruby when interviewed by the FBI in 1963, although he said that since 1940 he had not seen Ruby except for a few chance meetings in the street.(2275) Paul Dorfman died in 1971, leaving his stepson, Allen Dorfman, to control and influence much of the Teamsters’ illegal activities in conjunction with Hoffa, thereby closely alining him with Weiner. There is no documentation of any Ruby-Weiner contact through either of the Dorfmans. (1365) Executive session testimony before the House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations. [EXECUTIVE SESSION] JFK SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978 House or Representatives, SELECT CoMMITTEE ON ASSASSIN ATIONS, JoHN F, Kennevy Suscommirrer, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 9:25 a.m., pursuant to notice, in room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Richardson J. Preyer (chair- ‘mon of the subcommittee) presiding. _ Present: Representatives Preyer (presiding), Dodd, Fithian, and Sawyer. Also present: G. Cornwell, J. Hornbeck, J. McDonald, A. Purdy, J. Wolf, H. Shapiro, E. Berning, T. Hutton, M. Ewing, A. Taylor, ‘R. Morrison, L. Svendsen, D. Billings, and W. H. Cross. Mr. Preyer. The committee will come to order. The Chair will ask Ms. Berning, the clerk of the committee, to read for the record those members officially designated to be on the sub- committee today. | Ms. Bernina. Mr. Chairman, you, Mr. Thone, Mrs. Burke, Mr. Saw- yer, and Mr. Dodd are regular members of the Kennedy Subcommit- tee. There will not be any substitutions today. Mr. Preyer. Thank you. On the basis of information obtained by the committee, the com- mittee believes that the evidence or testimony may tend to defame, de- ade, or incriminate people. Since our rules of the House and the sommittee require such hearings to be in executive session, the Chair ill entertain a motion at this time that today’s hearing and 1 subse- uent day of hearings be held in executive session. Mr. Sawyer. I so move. Mr. Preyer. The clerk will call the roll. Ms. Bernina. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Preyer. Aye. Ms. Bernina. Mr. Thone. Mr. Tuone. [No response. | Ms. Bernina. Mrs. Burke. Mrs. Burke. [No response. ] Ms. Bernina. Mr. Sawyer. Mr. Sawyer. Aye. Ms. Brrnine. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Dopp. Aye. Ms. Brrnrna. Three ayes, Mr. Chairman. (1045) 1046 Mr. Preyer. Very well, the meeting is closed and all unauthorized personnel will leave the room. Our witness today is Irwin Weiner. Mr. Weiner, I will ask if you will come forward and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you are about to give before this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but } the truth, so help you God? Mr. Werner. I do. TESTIMONY OF IRWIN WEINER Mr. Preyer. Thank you. ) I understand, Mr. Weiner, that you have been given a copy of the } rules of the committee. | Mr. Werner. Yes; I have. 7 Mr. Preyer. At this time I will give a brief statement concerning } the subject of the investigation. It is something we do for each witness. } H. Res. 222 mandates the committee to conduct a full and complete } investigation and study of the circumstances surrounding the assassi- } nation and death of President John F. Kennedy, including deter- } mining whether the existing laws of the United States concerning the protection of the President and the investigatory jurisdiction and capability of agencies and departments are adequate in their provi- sions and enforcement and whether there was full disclosure of evi- dence and among agencies and departments of the U.S. Government } and whether any evidence or information not in the possession of an agency or department would have been of assistance in investigating the assassination; and why such information was not provided or collected by that agency or department; and to make recommenda-j tions to the House, if the select committee deems it appropriate, for] the amendment of existing legislation or enactment of new legislation. } The Chair recognizes Mr. Wolf to begin the questioning. | Mr. Wour. Mr. Weiner, you have been given a copy of the commit-j tee rules. The committee rules provide that you are entitled to rep- resentation by an attorney. Are you aware of that fact? | Mr. Werner. Yes; I am. | Mr. Wo tr. You do not have an attorney today. Do you waive your right to an attorney? Mr. WEINER. I waive my right to an attorney now. Mr. Worr. What is your current residence? Mr. Werner. My residence? Mr. Wotr. Yes. Mr. Werner. 7163 Carol Court, Niles, Il. Mr. Wo tr. That is your residence address? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. What is your current business address? Mr. Weiner. 1010 South State Street, Chicago, Il. Mr. Wo rr. Are you affiliated with a firm? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Worr. What is the name? Mr. Weiner. American Bonding Agency. Mr. Wo tr. In what capacity are you affiliated with that firm? Mr. Werner. I am president. 1047 Mr. Wotr. Mr. Weiner, the first area of questions relationship with Jack Ruby. will concern your Ay the committee members this is listed on tab 2 of the briefing When was the first time you met Jack Ruby, Mr. Weine Mr. Werner. I don’t know. I don’t remember. I went r? to us brother, Earl. Jack was a little older than I was. I mightschool with Jack Ruby four or five times in my life. have met Mr. Worr. What is the first time you recall2 Mr. Werner. I can’t recall. Mr. Wo tr. Do you recall—— Mr. Werner. I would say I met him probably in the 1930s. Mr. Worr. What were the circumstances of your first meeting? Mr. Werner. It was an older brother of a friend of mine, not even good friend. Somebody I knew. Mr. Worr. You are speaking of Earl ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. You met Earl in high school? Mr. Werner. Right. Mr. Wotr. Were you friendly with Earl ? Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Woxr. Did you meet other members of the Ruby family? Mr. Werner. I don’t think I did. Mr. Wotr. Were you ever to the Ruby house? Mr. Weiner. I don’t believe I was. Mr. Wotr. How much older than yourself was Jack Ruby ? Mr. Werner. I don’t have any idea. I know he was a few years older. Mr. Worr. You testified that you believe you met him four or five es in total, is that correct ? Mr. Werner. Probably. Mr. Woxr. What meetings with Jack Ruby do you remember? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember any of them. Mr. Wotr. How do you know you met him four or five times? _ Mr. Werner. I am assuming I met him four or five times. I saw him ith his brother, spoke to him a few times. I am only going back— du are talking about 30-some years or 40 years. Mr. Worr. All your contacts with Jack Ruby were during the 1930’s? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. When were your other contacts with Jack Ruby ? Mr. Werner. He called me up one time. Mr. Wotr. When was that? iy ; Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. It was in the sixties, prior to the as- ssination of the President. Box Mr. Wotr. How much prior to the assassination? | Mr. Werner. I don’t have any idea. 1048 Mr. Wo r. You do recollect that call? Mr. Weiner. Yes. I recollect that call because EF have had a lot.of problems because of that call. Mr. Wo tr. Was that call on October 26, 1963? Mr. Werner. It could have been. Mr. Wo tr. One month prior to the assassination ? Mr. Werner. It could have been. Mr. Woxr. At what time previous to that call do you recollect seeing Jack Ruby? Mr. WEINER. Maybe 10 or 15 years prior to that. Mr. Wo yr. Ten or fifteen years prior to the call? Mr. Werner. Correct. Mr. Wor. Why do you characterize yourself as having a lot of trouble concerning that call? Mr. Werner. I[ tell you what problem I have and the reason for my attitude. Evidently as a result of this call an agent called my house. Mr. Wo tr. FBI agent? Mr. Werner. Yes. An FBI agent called my house and spoke to mj daughter. It was right after Oswald was killed. He spoke to my} daughter and asked where I was. I was in Florida at the time. She didn’t know where I was. She had just come in from school. She tole the agent she didn’t know where I was but expected to hear from me I called the next day. She was shaking with fright because the agent had told her he wanted to talk to me about the assassination of the President. As a result of that, anytime anybody came and talked to me I dismissed them. Mr. Wotr. The FBI did contact you regarding that call? Mr. Werner. Yes. I never spoke to them about it. Mr. Wo rr. The reason you are not speaking Mr. Wetner. Is because of the way they mistreated my daughter. Mr. Wo r. Did they mistreat your daughter ? Mr. Werner. That is the extent of it. They scared her to death. Mr. Wotr. You felt you should not speak to the FBI about the as sassination of President Kennedy? Mr. WEINER. You are 100 percent right. Mr. Wotr. Did anybody else ever contact you regarding that call’ Mr. Werner. Newspaper people. I refused to speak to them. A coupl of your investigators. Mr. Wo r. You refused to speak to our investigators ; is that correct Mr. Werner. Right. Mr. Wo tr. What was discussed during that phone call ? Mr. Werner. Jack Ruby called me. Evidently he had a nightclub n Dallas, Tex. He had a striptease night, one night a week he had a1 amateur striptease. Some union that was affiliated with entertainer had stopped him. They asked him to stop because the amateur enter tainers were not members of the union. He stopped and another com petitor of his opened up. He called me and wanted to know if I would write a bond. He wa looking to get an injunction. The lawyer told him if he got an injune tion he would have to put up a bond. He asked me if I would do tha and I told him no. Then he told me he was going to file a lawsuit That was the extent of our conversation. It was just in relation t that. I never heard from him since and I have never heard from hin prior to that. 1049 Mr. Wotr. You had no contact with Mr. WEINER. Absolutely no. him prior to that time? Mr. Wotr. How did Jack Ruby come Mr. Weiner. Through his brother. to call you? bonds. I don’t have any idea. That was my business, writing Mr. Worr. Why did you refuse to writ Mr. Werner. I didn’t have the authorit e the bond th at he requested? Mr. Woxr. Did you direct him to some y to write it, Mr. WeEtner. No. body who did? Mr. Wo tr. Your te stimony was that was the business you were in at that time ? Mr. Werner. [ still am. Mr. Wotr. Why do you say you had no Mr. Weiner. If I remember correctly Iauthority to write a bond? authorized to do business in Texas. I justdon’t think the company was in it. There was no way I could do it. didn’t want to get involved Mr. Wotr. Did you ever refer him to some have referred him to somebody in Texas? body in Texas? Could you 4 oftWerner. I don’t know anybody in Texas who would write a ond. Mr. Worr. You don’t do business with any Mr. Werner. Not that I know of. firm in Texas? Mr. Wotr. What else was discussed during that conversation ? Mr. Weiner. That is all that was discussed. Mr. Wotr. And that conversation, do you lasted ? recollect. how long it | Mr. Werner. I don’t have any idea. Mr. Wor. Did you ask Jack Ruby about other contacted regarding that bond ? people he may have Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Is your knowledge of Jack Ruby’s probl , the labor dispute solely from that conversation ems concerning ? r. Werner. That is the only conversation I had with Mr. Wotr. Have you read in the public domain since thathim, Jack Ruby’s labor problems? time about Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wor. You were not aware from any other source ficulties Jack Ruby has had concerning—— of the dif- Mr. Werner. I read about his problems, you know, after that. than that, no. Other Mr. Wotr. What was the amount of the bond that Jack Ruby was seeking? Mr. saa I don’t remember that. When he started talking all I did was look to get rid of him. I didn’t want to have anythito me ‘to do with it. I was just being courteous. ng Mr. Worr. You had no contacts for 15 years previous to that call with Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. I never had contact with Jack Ruby, never socially. Never went with him anywhere, never broke bread with him, never had anything to do with Jack Ruby at any time in my life. Mr. Wotr. What was the contact 15 years prior to that phone call with Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. How the hell do I know. 1050 Mr. Wo tr. You testified— Mr. Werner. I am just guessing. It could have been 30 years before. I don’t remember. | Mr. Wotr. What other contact with Jack Ruby do you remember ? Mr. Weiner. I didn’t have any contacts with him. Mr. Wotr. Did you ever meet with him? Mr. Werner. I told you I never met with him, never had coffee with him, never went to his house, never had lengthy conversation with him that I remember. Mr. Wotr. Except that one phone call? Mr. Werner. Except that one phone call. Mr. Wo r. As far as you know Jack Ruby called you because of the relationship that you had with his brother, Ear!? Mr. Werner. I don’t know if that was it. I am just guessing. Mr. Wotr. Were any other individuals discussed during that phone call? Did Jack Ruby mention the name of any other people? Mr. Weiner. No, he did not. He might have mentioned a lawyer. I don’t remember. Mr. Wo tr. His lawyer? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Woxr. Did Jack Ruby ask you for any further help after you told him you could not write the bond ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember if he did or not. Mr. Wor. Did you refer Jack Ruby to any other people? Mr. Werner. No, I did not. Mr. Wo tr. The termination of your conversation was that you could not help Jack Ruby and you knew of no individuals who could? Mr. WEINER. Right. Mr. Wor. Did Jack Ruby reveal any of his further plans to you? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Worr. Did you ever call Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. No. I might have called, I might have returned a phone call. Maybe I wasn’t at home. I don’t remember the relationship of the call. It might have been I received the call and when I came I answered the call. I never called him. Mr. Worr. You don’t recall if you had been referred to Jack Ruby by anybody that Jack Ruby mentioned ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Michael Shore? Mr. WEINER. I sure do. Mr. Wo tr. How do you know Mr. Shore? Mr. Werner. I know Mr. Shore all my life, a boyhood friend of mine. Still is. Mr. Worr. Do you have business with Mr. Shore ? Mr. WErIneR. Right now I have. Mr. Wotr. During the period of time 1960-63 did you have business with Mr. Shore? Mr. Werner. I don’t think so. Mr. Wo tr. What is your business with Mr. Shore ? Mr. Werner. Bringing products in from Japan. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Shore is a close friend of yours? Mr. WEINER. Very close friend of mine. 1051 Mr. Wotr. Have you ever discussed with Mr, phone call to yourself ? Shore the Jack Ruby Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wotr. Has Mr. Shore ever discussed with vou Jack Mr. Werner. Yes. g “ sp Mr. Wotr. What has he told you? Mr. Werner. He said that he arranged with Earl to try some legal help in—there was an attorney in San Franci to get him sco think Michael Shore knew and Ear! wanted to hire him, I forgetthat I name. his Mr. Worr. Did Mr. Shore indicate anything else to you about Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. That is about it. Mr. Woxr. Did Mr. Shore ever discuss with you Jack Ruby call- ing him concerning the American Guild of Variety Artists? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. He never discussed that with you? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever told anybody that Jack Ruby’s phone call to you did not involve a labor dispute? Mr. Werner. No; I don’t think so. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever told anybody that the phone call to you was not involving national security? Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Who did you tell that to? Mr. Werner. To the FBI. Mr. Wotr. When did you tell that to the FBI? Mr. Werner. A fellow called me, wanted to see me and I refused to see him. Mr. Wotr. At any time this year did you ever speak to a reporter who inquired about that phone call? Mr. Werner. I might have. Mr. Wotr. Do you recall telling that reporter that the phone call did not involve a labor dispute with Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. I might have. I might have told him anything. I might have just—a reporter I remember called me from Washington twice. I might have told him anything. Mr. Wotr. What you told that reporter would be inaccurate? Mr. Werner. I would say it was inaccurate. It was not under oath. Mr. Wotr. Correct. So if you told that reporter that the Jack Ruby phone call to you did not involve a labor dispute that would be incorrect? Mr. Werner. That is right. ' Mr. Woir. What was your personal reaction to the call when Jack Ruby called you? Were you surprised to hear from him? Mr. Weiner. Very much so. Mr. Wotr. Did you remember who he was? Mr. Werner. Oh, sure. Mr. Wo tr. He did not have to identify himself to you? Mr. Werner. No. , Mr. Wo tr. Did you actually do anything as a result of that phone 1052 Mr. Werner. Not a thing. Mr. Wo tr. Did you tell anybody else about that phone call ? Mr. Werner. I told a lot of people about it. Mr. Wo tr. What did you tell them? Mr. Weiner. I told them just what I am telling you. Mr. Wo tr. Who did you tell about that phone call? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. You told a lot of people, you testified. Mr. Werner. I told a lot to people, to make sure I te]l you the truth. Iam sure I spoke to somebody about it but I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. You don’t remember any name? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember one name. Mr. Wo tr. Who was your business partner at that time? Mr. Werner. Louis Volin. I don’t remember whether I told him or not. Mr. Wo tr. You testified that your daughter answered the phone call from the FBI? Mr. Werner. Right. Mr. Wotr. Did you explain to her why the FBI called you? Mr. Werner. I told her not to be concerned, that I didn’t have any- thing to do with anything like that. a Mr. Worr. Did you tell her Jack Ruby had called you about labor | problems? Mr. Werner. No; I didn’t discuss it with her. ; Mr. Worr. Why did you not tell your daughter that that was the | explanation for the phone call? Mr. Werner. I probably didn’t think she would understand it. I don’t know whether I did or not. Mr. Wo tr. How old was your daughter at that time ? Mr. Werner. Maybe 16. Mr. Wotr. What is your daughter’s name? Mr. WEINER. Susan. Mr. Wotr. Where does she live now ? Mr. Werner. I am not going to tell you. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Chairman, I would ask you to direct the witness to answer that question. It is important to be able corroborate part of this witness’ testimony. It may be necessary for the committee to in- terview Mr. Weiner’s daughter. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Weiner, the committee certainly has no intention of harassing your daughter. ° Mr. Werner. Submit a list of questions and I will submit it to my daughter and I will have her answer. I don’t want anyone to bother her. My daughter is a very nervous girl under a doctor’s care and I don’t want anybody to harass her. She is under psychiatric care. Sub- mit a list of questions. I will submit them to my daughter and my daughter will answer them. Mr. Worr. Mr. Chairman, I think it may be necessary for the commit- tee staff investigators perhaps, not necessarily but perhaps, to interview Mr. Weiner’s daughter, to have an assessment of the credibility of both Mr. Weiner and his daughter regarding the phone call. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Weiner, the committee is not interested in trying to scare your daughter or harass her in any way. It would be agreeable 1053 with the committee, if we should find it necessary to contact her, if we could make the contact through you, first ? Mr. Werner. Yes; you could, absolutely. Mr. Wo tr. If we attempt to make that contact you will in fact put us in touch with your daughter at that time? Mr. Werner. I will cooperate with you 100 percent. Mr. Wotr. Concerning the phone call you received from Mike regarding getting an attorney for Jack Ruby—— Shore Mr. Werner. I didn’t receive the phone call. I spoke to him in person. Mr. Wor. Where was that? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. It is a long time ago. Mr. Wotr. When was that? Mr. Weiner. When ? Mr. Wotr. Approximately how long after Ruby shot Oswald was it? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. The next time I saw him—in those years I would see him on trips in California or if he came to Chicago. I don’t remember when or how it was. It was just conversation. Mr. Worr. Did he ask you for any suggestions regarding representa- tion of Jack Ruby ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Chairman, I think at this point that it is appropriate for committee members to ask questions concerning Mr. Weiner’s knowledge of Jack Ruby and the phone call that was placed on October 22. Mr. Preyer. Are there any questions of the committee or do you pre- fer to wait until the staff has completed its questions? Mr. Dopp. I would just as soon wait. Mr. Preyer. There will be no questions from the committee members at this time. Mr. Worr. Mr. Weiner, have you ever been to Cuba? Mr. Werner. Have I been to Cuba? Mr. Wotr. Yes. Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Wotr. When were you in Cuba? Mr. Werner. In 1958 or 1959. Mr. Wotr. Was that one trip you are referring to? Mr. Werner. I made a few trips there. 1 Mr. Wotr. What was the purpose of your trips to Cuba ? Mr. Werner. One or two just for pleasure. Another trip I made was—I guess they were all pleasure. Mr. Worr. You have never been to Cuba on a business trip ? Mr. Werner. Not that I remember. Mr. Worr. About how many times did you go to Cuba for pleasure? Mr. Werner. Maybe three or four. Mr. Wotr. Were those all during the 1959, 1959 period ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. | Mr. Woxr. Were you ever in Cuba after Fidel Castro took over, which was January 1, 1959? Mr. WEINER. Yes. b 2 Mv. Worr. When you were in Cuba who did you visit ? Mr. Werner. Whom did I visit? There was a friend of mine that ‘worked in one of the casinos there, his name was Sarnoff. I visited him, 1054 Mr. Wo r. Which casino did he work in? Mr. Weiner. I don’t remember. BAAD Mr. Wor. Did you visit anybody else on those trips? Mr. WEIneEr. Not that I remember. Mr. Wotr. Did you go by yourself or with other individuals? Mr. WEINER. I went with somebody else. Mr. Wotr. Who else did you go with ¢ Mr. Werner. A fellow by the name of Felix Alderisio. Mr. Wotr. Was he traveling for pleasure ? Mr. Werner. Yes. As far as I know he was. Mr. Wotr. On how many of your trips did you accompany Mr. Alderisio? Mr. Werner. I think all of them. I am not sure. It has been a long time ago. , Mr. Wotr. At what hotels did you stay at when you visited Cuba? Mr. Werner. The Nacionale. I don’t remember the other names. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Mike McLaney ? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wo r. Did you ever see Jack Ruby on any of your trips to Cuba? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wo tr. Did you ever meet anybody in Cuba who said he had met Jack Ruby? Mr. Weiner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Lewis McWillie? Mr. Werner. No; I don’t. . Mr. Wotr. Do you recall traveling to Cuba with Allen Dorfman ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Was he on all of your trips? Mr. WEINER. Yes; he was. Mr. Woxr. He was on all of your trips? Mr. Werner. No; he was on one trip. Mr. Wotr. Which trip was that? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember but there were four of us on that trip. -ses Worr. Were the other individuals Stewart Hopps and Charles ray ? Mr. WEINER. Right. Mr. Wor. What was the purpose of that trip? Mr. Weiner. It was an insurance trip. I think we had formed a com- pany in Nassau, insurance company in Nassau, and I think Stewart Hopps was friendly with the ex-President of Cuba that was involved with him in an insurance deal. We went to deal with him. It was a relation with insurance at Stewart Hopps’ suggestion. Mr. Wotr. What was your relationship with Mr. Dorfman? Mr. Werner. My relationship at the time ? Mr. Worr. Yes. 7 Mr. Werner. We were involved in an insurance deal. Mr. Wotr. Was the name of the insurance company the Intercon- tinental Insurance & Surety Co? Mr. Werner. I think it was. Mr. Wor. Where was that company incorporated at the time of your trip to Cuba? 1055 Mr. Wetner. I think it was a Pan ama company. nian company or Mexican Mr. Woxr. Was it ever a Cuban company ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. The charte r from that other from Panama to Nassau ? company was transferred _ Mr. Werner. I think that the compa it was a Panamanian company. ny was officed in Nassau and Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Dominick Bart one ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Was one of the individuals you met with on that trip to Cuba, Mr. Louis Botifoll # Mr. Werner. On the trip to Cuba? Mr. Wo r. Yes. Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. You met with him on that trip to Cuba? Mr. Werner. I met a Cuban attorney. I don’t remem ber that could be. If he was pr’sident of the Latin Ameri his name but can bar that was the attorney. Mr. Wotr. What did you discuss with him ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever had any dealings with him ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wor. Did he ever discuss any officials of the Cuban Govern- ment with you? , Mr. Werner. I don’t remember if he did or not. Mr. Wotr. Did you know any of any political or law enforcement individuals in Cuba ? Mr. Werner. No; I didn’t. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Santos Trafficante? Mr. WEINER. Yes. é Mr. Wotr. Have you met Mr. Trafficante? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Worr. When were your meetings with Mr. Trafficante? Mr. WEINER. I met him at a club in Cuba. Mr. Wo tr. What club was that? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember the name of the club. It was an out- door casnio and nightclub. Mr. Wotr, Do you remember what trip to Cuba this was on that you met Mr. Trafficante? Mr. Weiner. No; I don’t. ; Mr. Worr. What other meetings did you have with Mr. Trafficante ? Mr. Werner. I met him in Florida. Mr. Wotr. When was that ? Mr. Werner. About 1963. Wi, . Mr. Wo tr. Was that prior to or subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy ? Mr. Werner. Prior. Mr. Wotr. How much prior was it? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. ! a ee Mr. Wor. How do you recollect it was prior to the assassination ? 1056 Mr. Weiner. Well, I am just guessing. When was the assassination? Mr. Wo tr. November 1963. Mr. Werner. It could have been before or after, I don’t know. Mr. Worr. Where did you meet Mr. Trafficante ? Mr. Weiner. At the Fountainebleau Hotei. Mr. Wotr. Were you staying there! Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. How long were you in Miami on that trip 4 Mr. Werner. I had a legal matter in Miami. Mr. Wor. What was the legal matter? Mr. Wetner. I was indicted in Miam}. Fla. ~ Mr. Worr. What was the indictment for¢ Mr. Weiner. The indictment was for extortion. : Mr. Wor. Why did you meet with Mr. ‘Trafficante at that time? Mr. Weiner. He was friendly with my associate who also was indicted. Mr. Wotr. Who was your associate ¢ Mr. Werner. Felix Alderisio. Mr. Wo tr. What was-discussed in the meeting with Mr. Trafficante¢ Mr. Weiner. I don’t know. Just trivialities. Mr. Wotr. What other meetings did you have with Mr. Trafficante? Mr. Weiner. I don’t know. It was just about that time the only meet- ing I remember. Mr. Wo tr. Was there more than one meeting at that time’ Mr. Werner. He wouid come to see my friend. Mr. Wo tr. How long were you in Miami during that trip / Mr. Werner. I don’t know. I think we had a 10-day trial before a jury. I was in Washington, too. The attorneys came from Washington. Mr. Wotr. Who else was present at your mectings with Mr. Traf- ficante besides yourself and Mr. Alderisio ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. When you met Mr. Traitticante in Cuba who else was pres- ent at that meeting? Mr. Werner. Nightclub full of people. Mr. Wo r. Did you speak to Mr. Trafticante at that time ? Mr. Weiner. Did I? Mr. Wo tr. Yes. Mr. Werner. Apparently I did. Mr. Worr. Was anybody else in on the conversation ? Mr. Werner. I never had anything to really discuss with Mr. Traf- ficante. Mr. Worr. How were you first introduced to Mr. Traflicante¢ Mr. Werner. By Felix Alderisio, Mr. Wotr. When was that? Mr. Werner. At this time in Cuba. Mr. Wo tr. In 1959 ? Mr. Werner. 1959, 1960, yes. Mr. Worr. Did you ever have any interest in Cuban gambling easinos 4 Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever stated that for your services to Mr. Traf- ficante you were given an interest in a Cuban gambling casino? Did you ever state that ? 1057 Mr. Wexver. I migi:t have. 3 _ Mr. We:.s, If you stated that, is it your testimony that that is incorrect ? Mr. Werner. That is right. eres Mr. Wotr. You never had any interest in any Cuban gambling casino ? Mr. Werner. Absolutely none. Mr. Wor. Did you state you lost. a fortune in Cuba? Mr. Werner. I might have. Mr. Wor. If you stated that, was that correct ? Mr. Werner. No, Mr. Wotr. Did you lose any money as a consequence of Fidel Castro’s takeover ? Mr. Werner. Not one penny. Mr. Wotr. Have you had any other meetings with Mr. Trafficante aside from the two you have told us? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember if I did or not. Mr. Wotr. Have you spoken to Mr. Trafticante over the telephone? Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Wotr. When was your most recent contact with Mr. Trafficante ? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. In the last year. Mr. Wor. What prompted that conversation ? Mr. Werner. Some kind of bail bond. Mr. Wotr. He talked to you concerning a bail bond? Mr. Werner. Yes. He thought he would need it and that was the end of it. Mr. Wotr. Did Mr. Trafficante discuss with you his holdings in Cuba? Mr. Werner. No; I never discussed anything personal with Mr. Trafficante. Mr. Wotr. Did Mr. Trafficante during your meetings in 1963 ever discuss the political situation in the United States? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Worr. Do you know Mr. John Roselli? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. You never heard of Roselli? Mr. Werner. Sure, I have seen him too. Mr. Wo tr. Have you ever spoken to him over the telephone? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Did you know Mr. Sam Giancana ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wo tr. Have you ever met with Mr. Giancana ? Mr. WEINER. Sure. Mr. Wotr. When did you first meet Mr. Giancana? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wo tr. Approximately when? 1940’s, 1950’s? Mr. Werner. It could have been 1940’s. Mr. Wor. What were the circumstances of your first meeting that you recall? : Mr. Werner. I don’t remember ever meeting him for any particu- lar—I just knew who he was. 1058 Mr. Wotr. Who introduced you to Mr. Giancana? Mr. Werner. It could have been Mr. Alderisio. Mr. Woxr. Did you ever have business dealings with Mr. Alderisio? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. What were they? Mr. Wetner. We were partners in some real estate at one time. We were partners involved in a shortening corporation. Mr. Wor. What period of time were you involved with Mr. Alderisio ? Mr. Werner. I have known Mr. Alderisio since I was 13 years old. Mr. Wor. What period of time were you partners with Mr. Alderisio in business ? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. You mean the years in question ? Mr. Wotr. Yes. Mr. WEINER. I was partners with him in 1956 to 1960. Mr. Wo tr. What corporation were you partners in Mr. Werner. A corporation called Twin Food Products. Mr. Woxr. Are there any other corporations you were partners in with Mr. Alderisio? Mr. Werner. I am trying to think. We were involved in a real estate transaction. I don’t remember any other companies being involved. Mr. Wor. When were you involved in a real estate transaction? Mr. Werner. Around the 1960's. Mr. Wour. Did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. Giancana ? Mr. WeInER. No. | Mr. Woxr. Did Mr. Giancana ever ask you to obtain bonds for any of his associates? Mr. Werner. I don’t think so. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. James Fratianno ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wo xr. Have you ever met with him ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. When did you meet with him ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. The last time? I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. What meetings with him do you recall? Mr. Werner. I am just trying to think. I met him in California. Mr. Wotr. When was that? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. Approximately when? Mr. Werner. Ten years, fifteen years ago. I don’t remember. Mr. Wotr. What was your most recent meeting with him? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember that either. I don’t remember when I met him. Mr. Wor. The only meeting with him you recall was in California! Mr. Werner. I know I met him a few times. I met him in Las Vegas. Mr. Wo tr. How were you introduced to him? Mr. Weiner. Through Felix Alderisio who was a friend of his. Mr. Wo tr. Did you know him socially? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Did you ever have any business dealings with him? Mr. Werner. Never. a oS m 1059 Mr. Wotr. Did he ever discuss Giancana and Mr. Roselli with you? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wo.r. Do you know Mr. Norman Rothman ? Mr. Werner. I don’t think so. Mr. Wo r. Have you ever been in Dallas, Tex. ? Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Were you ever in Dallas, Tex. in 1960 Mr. Werner. I don’t think SO, no. through 1963? Mr. Wotr. What was the most recent time you were in Dallas, Mr. Werner. In the 1970’s, 1971 I think. Tex. ? Mr. Wotr. What was the purpose of your trip to Dallas at that time? Mr. Werner. A friend of mine has a business there, a fellow by the rame of Sol Aman. Mr. Wor. What business was he in? Mr. Werner. He manufactures cooking machines. Mr. Worr. What was the purpose of your visit ? Mr. Werner. He owed me some money. He called me up and he had it. I went and met him in Dallas and got it. said Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Joe Civello? Mr. Werner. I don’t think so. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever heard that name before? Mr. Werner. Offhand, no. Mr. Wor. Do you know Mr. Joseph Campisi? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Worr. Have you ever heard that name before? Mr. Werner. I don’t think so. Mr. Worr. What other business dealings have you had in Dallas aside from the ones you have told us about so far? Mr. Werner. I am trying to think. I don’t think I had any. Mr. Wo tr. Are you familiar with a club in Dallas called the Dallas Cabana? Mr. WEtner. No. Mr. Wotr. One of your business associates is Mr. Sol Schwartz, is that correct ? ; Mr. Werner. Right. No—yes. At one time we were involved in an agency. Mr. Wor. What was the name of that agency ? Mr. Werner. I don’t even remember that. Mr. Wor. Was that Summit Fidelity and Surety Co. @. Te Mr. Werner. We were involved in that agency, that is an insurance company. It was Summit Fidelity Insurance Agency of Illinois, I think was the name. It was an Illinois corporation. pad Mr. Worr. Are you aware if Mr. Schwartz had any financial involve- ment with Dallas Cabana? Mr. Werner. I don’t know about that. I don’t know what Dallas Cabana is. Mr. Worr. Apart from the Jack Ruby phone call to you sided his labor problems, were you familiar with the Carousel Club at all? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. Did Jack Ruby mention during that phone call the labor union with which he was experiencing difficulties? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember that. He might have. 1060 Mr. Wotr. Would it refresh your recollection if I said it was AGVA, American Guild of Variety Artists? Mr. Werner. It could have been. Mr. Wo tr. Have you heard that name before ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever had any dealings with that union ? Mr. Weiner. No. Mr. Wine Are you familiar at all with AGVA’s general procedures in 1963 ¢ Mr. Wetner. Who? Mr. Wotr. AGVA. Mr. Weiner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know any AGVA officers or representatives? Mr. WEINER. Not at all. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Johnny Gattanas? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr., G-a-t-t-a-n-a-s. Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. James Henry Dolan ? Mr. Werner. Wait. James Henry Dolan ? Mr. Wo tr. D-o-l-a-n. Mr. Werner. I know a fellow by the name of Dolan. Mr. Wo rr. Which Mr. Dolan do you know ? Mr. Werner. A big fellow about 6 feet tall. Mr. Wo tr. How do you know him ? Mr. Werner. I have taken him out on bond. Mr. Wor. When was that? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. That was maybe 15, 20 years ago. Mr. Wotr. Where was he from ? Mr. Weiner. From Chicago. Mr. Wotr. Did you ever nave any subsequent dealings with Mr. Dolan ? Mr. Werner. Not that I know of, other than take him out on bond whenever that was. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Ernest Fast? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Alfred Kapper? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Jimmy Allegretti? Mr. Werner. Mr. who? Mr. Worr. Jimmy Allegretti? Mr. Werner. Yes; I knew him. Mr. Worr. He is a friend of yours you grew up with? Mr. Werner. I think I knew him all my life. Mr. Wo tr. Did you ever have any business dealings with him? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Chairman, I think at this time it is appropriate for committee members to ask any questions they desire concerning the areas we have questioned on so far. Mr. Preyer. Do you have any questions ? Mr. Dopp. No. Mr. Preyer. I think we will wait until you have completed all your questions. me 1061 Mr. Wor. Mr. Weiner, during your discu cante in Miami you testified that you discu ssions with Mr. Traffi- ment with Mr. Trafticante., ssed your pending indict- Mr. Werner. Probably. Mr. Woxr. Did you discuss the fact that under investigation in conjunction with your Mr. Trafficante was also indi Mr. Weiner. I don’t remember discussing that. ctment? no; not that I know of. As a result of my— Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Angelo Bruno? Mr. Werner. The name does not strike a respon sive chord in me. Mr. Worr. Concerning your discussions with Mr. Shore and his ob- taining legal representation for Jack Ruby was that discussion in Los Angeles or Chicago? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Worr. Was that discussion within 1 month, 2 months after Ruby shot Oswald ? months, or 3 Mr. Werner. The last discussion I had with Mr. Shore was prior to my coming here. I told him why I was coming here. He reiterated that he had helped Earl Ruby obtain legal counsel or he was mental in helping him, whatever it was, or he knew the attorne instru- y. I don’t remember. This was just 2 days ago, 3 days ago. Mr. Worr. You have no recollection of how soon after Ruby shot Oswald that discussion was? Mr. Werner. No. It had to be after that happened. I met Mr. Shore and discussed it with him, keeping abreast of what had happene d to him. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Phillip Bosco? Mr. Werner. Who? Mr. Wotr. Phillip Bosco, B-o-s-c-o. Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. During 1970 did you ever meet Paul Roland Jones? Mr. Werner. Paul who? Mr. Wotr. Roland Jones? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. Have you ever heard that name before? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo rr. Paul Labriola? Mr. Werner. Yes; I have heard that name. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Labriola ? Mr. Werner. I took him on bond. Mr. Wo tr. When was that? Mr. Werner. It had to be in the 1940's. Mr. Worr. Have you ever had any dealing with him subsequent to that time? Mr. Werner. No; and I am not looking forward to having any deal- ings with him. { ae % Mr. Worr. But you have had no dealings with Mr. Labriola subse- quent to the 1940’s? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. What about Mr. James Weinberg? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wo tr. How do you know him? Mr. Werner. Just took him out on bond. 1062 Mr. Wotr. Was that the same time as Mr. Labriola? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. They were always in trouble. Mr. Wotr. Did anybody specifically that you recall refer you to them ? Mr. Werner. No. Somebody would have to refer them to me. Mr. Wotr. When they first approached you—— Mr. Werner. It could have been through an attorney. Mr. Wo tr. Are you familiar at all with a move in late 1940’s from Chicago of individuals who were allegedly involved in organized crime ? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Worr. Do you know Carlos Marcello ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo.r. Have you ever heard that name before? Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever spoken with hin ? Mr. WErneER. No. Mr. Wour. Have you ever spoken with anybody who has stated he is a representative of Mr. Marcello? Mr. Werner. Not that I know of. Mr. Wotr. Have you ever met with Jimmy Hoffa? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. What were the circumstances of your first meeting ? Mr. Werner. Writing a bond for the Teamsters International under the Landrum-Griffin Act. — . Mr. Wor. When was that? Mr. Werner. It would be around 1959. Mr. Wotr. Who else was present at that meeting? Mr. Werner. Probably Allen Dorfman. Mr. Wo tr. Who introduced you to Mr. Hoffa? Mr. Werner. Allen Dorfman. Mr. Wotr. What was discussed at that meeting ? Mr. Werner. Getting a bond placed. He was having a problem. Mr. Worr. Was it one bond? r. Werner. It was a bond that covered the international. It cov- ered each officer of each local that represented, that was a member of the Teamsters International. Mr. Wotr. Was Mr. Bianca present at that meeting? Mr. Werner. I don’t know if he was present at that meeting. Mr. Woxr. Did you also have dealings with Mr. Bianca? Do you know him ? Mr. WEINER. Very well. Mr. Worr. How did you knew him? Mr. Werner. Bianca was an attorney, president of the Summit Fidelity Insurance Co. that I did business with. Mr. Worr. Allen Dorfman introduced you to Jimmy Hoffa? Mr. Weiner. Right. Mr. Wor. What was the outcome of that meeting? Did your com- pany in fact write a bond ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. What corporation was that? Mr. Werner. What corporation did write the bond? 1063 i oe Wor. Yes. What corporation were you ime ? affiliated with at that Mr. Werner. We started out with the Illinois. Then I took the busi- ness over, myself. Mr. Wotr. You incorporated your own agency? Mr. Werner. I think I formed another agency called Titan Man- agement Corp. Mr. Wotr. Did that management corporation Teamster pension bonding at that time? take over all the Mr. Werner. I received the commissions as a result of bond in that agency. writing that Mr. Wor. Approximately how much did you receive in commissions ? Mr. Weiner. A couple hundred thousand dollars I guess. Mr. Wotr. Was that for the year 1959? _ Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. It was for the placement of _ bond, the period that I had anything to do with it. that ___ Mr. Wotr. Did your corporation continue to write bonds for the _ Teamsters? Mr. Werner. The corporation was just formed for the purpose of handling that. Mr. Wotr. Just for that one ? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Wotr. Did you have any other organization or agency which placed bonds for local Teamsters ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Subsequent to 1959 what was the next time you met with Jimmy Hoffa? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. It was all as a result of these place- ments of the bonds. I think I wrote a bail bond for him at one time. I think I wrote a bail bond for him in Chicago. Mr. Wotr. When was that? Mr. Werner. When he was indicted in Chicago. I think I wrote a bail bond for him. ; _ Mr. Wotr. From the period 1959 through 1970 did you continue to _ write bonds for the Teamsters Pension Fund ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Was this the only bond they placed? Mr. Werner. This was a 3-year bond and I had something to do with it for about 18 months. Mr. Woxr. What terminated your involvement? Mr. Werner. They just went elsewhere and the interpretation of the Labor Department had changed. Originally it was a faith- ful performance bond. Then it became an honesty bond. A faith- ful performance bond sort of guarantees judgment, also. When they changed their interpretation any company could write the bonds and they had no need for my services. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Paul Dorfman? Mr. WeIneEr. Yes. : Mr. Woxr. How long have you known Paul Dorfman? Mr. Werner. Since I was a little boy. i ' v oe Mr. Worr. Did Paul Dorfman ever discuss his relationship with Jack Ruby? 1064 Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Subsequent to Ruby shooting Oswald, did Paul Dorf- man ever discuss Jack Ruby with you? Mr. WEINER. No, never. Mr. Woxr. You never discussed your phone cal] with Jack Ruby with Paul Dorfman ? Mr. Werner. Not that I remember. Mr. Worr. Did you ever have business lunches with Paul Dorfman? Mr. Wexner. I met hisson Allen through Paul. tia Mr. Woxr. Are you familiar with the Waste Handling Union 1 Chicago? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Wotr. Did you know Paul Doriman was president of that union in late 1940's? Mr. Werner. Could have been. I don’t remember. . Mr. Woxr. Are you aware of how Mr. Dorfman came to be prest- dent of that union ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. What other meetings with Mr. Hoffa subsequent to the 1959 meeting did you have? Mr. Weiner. I don’t think I had any meetings with him after that. Mr. Wotr. That was your only meeting? Mr. Werner. I had a few meetings in relationship to the placement of the bond. We might have met 10 or 15 times. We met in Detroit, Washington, and Chicago. After the placement of the bond I never and after writing the bai! bond when he was incarcerated in the peni- tentiary. Mr. Wotr. Did you ever meet Irving Davidson ¢ Mr. Werner. [ don’t know. I might have. Mr. Wo tr. Is that name familiar with you? Mr. Werner. It doesn’t ring a bell. Mr. Worr. Do you know Mr. Hank Greenspun ? Mr. Wernrr. No. Mr. Wotr. Did you ever meet with Mr. Hoffa, Mr. Davidson, and Mr. Greenspun ! Mr. Werner. I don’t remember meeting, I don’t believe I ever met Mr. Greenspun. I don’t know if I met Mr. Davidson or not. Under no circumstances did I ever meet Mr. Hoffa other than arranging the bond or bonds for him. Mr. Worr. During what period of time were your organizations ac- tive in placing bonds for local Teamster pension funds? Mr. Wrrver. Probably from 1960 to 1963. Mr. Worr. 1960 to 1963 ? Mr. Wrrner. Right. Mr. Worr. During that period of time how often would you say you met with Jimmy Hoffa? Mr. Werner. Once I placed the bond I had no reason to meet with im. Mr. Wotr. How often did you meet with Mr. Allen Dorfman dur- — ing that period of time? Mr. Weiner. Allen is a friend of mine. I can meet with him any time. — | . 1065 Mr. Wotr. Did you have business from the placement of the Teamster dealings with Mr. Dorfman apart Mr. Wern Pension Fund bonds? er. Not really, no. My. Worr. Did you ever discuss relauionship with Bobby Kenned y? with Mr. Dorfman Jimmy Hoffa’s Mr. Werner. I don’t think so, no. } Mr. Worr. Did you ever discuss with Bobby Kennedy? Mr. Hoffa his attitude toward Mi. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. Did you ever discuss with toward the Kennedy administration ? Mr. Dorfman his attitude Mr. Werner. I don’t know if I ever discussed don’t believe so, it with hin). No; I Mr. Woxr. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Hoffa his attitude toward the Kennedy administrati on 4 Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wour. Are you aware of what the toward Bobby Kennedy and the Kennedy attitude of Mr. Hoffa was administration ? Mr. Werner. I don’t think he approved very happy with him. of him. I don’t think he was Mv. Wore. How were you made aware of that fact? Mr. Wrexer, Just by what I read, the fact that Kennedy had formed a Hoffa squad and Hoffa went to the penit entia Mr. Worr. Mr. Dorfman was one of your ry. never discussed this fact2 closest friends and you Mi. Werner. I said he was a close friend. Mr. Wotr. But you never discussed his atti tude——- Mr. Werner. I don’t know if T did or not. Mr. Worr. Did you ever hear discussions concerning the assassination of Bobby at all with any individual Kennedy ? Mr. Werner. No; other than what I have read, just common knowledge. My. Wore. Common knowledge of what ? Mr. Werner. After the assassination of Bobb Mr. Wor. Did you ever hear discussions y Kennedy. with any individual con- cerning the assassination of President Kennedy ? Mr. Werner. Not really. Mr. Worr. Are you aware of any bonds that placed in Dallas, Tex., through your organizati the Teamsters Union Mr. Werner. I wouldn’t know about that. You ons? bonds for Texas locals ? mean if we wrote Mr. Worr. Yes. Mi. Werner. It is very possible at that partic vossible, ular time, very Mr. Wor. What would you say the aggreeate number of bonds you wrote for the Teamster pension locals was? Mr. Weiner. There are a thousand loca!s approximat e. ely and I might ave wrote the bonds for 60 or 70 percent of them. Mr. Worr. What would you say your total commi ¥) hose bonds was? ssion for writin g Mr. Weiner. The total I received2 Mr. Wour. The total that your company received ? 1066 Mr. Werner. I don’t know. There were two phases to the bonding of it. At one time we were accepting commissions from a group of com- panies and the commissions went into a bank account that guaranteed a loan to another insurance company and that insurance company defaulted and the bank took the commissions that were known as an earned basis. | They took those commissions to pay off the loan and after that—the last 18 months is when I arranged for another group of companies to write the bond and I got all of the commissions. I don’t remember what was involved. | Mr. Wor. This is your best estimate of Mr. Werner. The $200,000 that I received. Mr. Wotr. Did you ever tell Jimmy Hoffa that the Kennedy admin- istration was pressuring you to not write bonds for Teamsters officers or unions? Mr. Werner. I might have said that. Mr. Wo tr. What was Mr. Hoffa’s reaction ? Mr. Werner. I am sure he wasn’t too happy about it. I don’t re- member it. I might have said “you can expect it.” Mr. Wotr. Was the administration in fact pressuring you not to write bonds? Mr. WEINER. I believe it was. Mr. Wotr. Who in the administration was pressuring you ? Mr. Werner. A man called me, I believe, a fellow by the name of Wally Sheridan at that particular time. I started to talk with him about the bonds over the telephone and I refused to talk to him. Mr. Wo tr. What kinds of pressure was it ? Mr. Werner. With the companies, companies and newspape pressure. Mr. Wotr. When was that phone call from Mr. Sheridan? Mr. WErNeER. I don’t remember it. Mr. Wor. What type of pressure did he allegedly put on the com panies if they continued to write bonds? Mr. Wetner. I don’t know. They would get in touch with the com panies and ask a lot of questions and the companies didn’t want to be didn’t like to be questioned. That was a form of pressure. There was lot of newspaper publicity about it. Some companies shied away. Mr. Wo r. You discussed this with Mr. Hoffa? Mr. Werner. At the time, yes. Mr. Wor. Are you aware of what activities Jack Ruby engaged 1 while he was in Chicago? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Did you know why Jack Ruby moved from Chicago Dallas? Mr. Werner. I have no idea. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know, in Chicago, Mr. Sol Polk? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Dave Yaras? Mr. Werner. I know him, yes. Mr. Wotr. How do you know Mr. Yaras? Mr. Werner. I have known him all my life. I have known hi since I was a boy. 1067 Mr. Worr. Is he a personal frie Mr. Werner. I was friendly with nd of yours? Mr. Wotr. Did you have anything him. IT knew him. Mr. Weiner. No, to do with Mr. Yaras? Mr. Woxr. Did you see Mr. Yara your indictment? s When you were in Miami during Mr. Werner. I don’t. think go, Mr. Woxr. Did you see Mr. Yaras in Mr. WEINER. Probably. Miami at any other time? Mr. Worr. Who did you meet with in conjunction with Mr. Yaras in Miami? Mr. Werner. It was an att orney friend of away, Mr. Brodkin. mine who has since passed Mr. Wotr. What was the occasion of that Mr. Werner. My wife and he and his wifemeeting ? Yaras lived in Florida and we went out to went to Florida. Mr. dinner together. Mr. Woxr. At what time in Florida? Mr. Werner. That would be in the early fifties Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Lennie Patrick? , mid-fifties. ~ Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Woxr. How do you know Mr. Patrick? Mr. Werner. I know him the same way, in the same ‘since I was a kid. neighborhood, Mr. Wotr. Did you ever have any business dealin gs with Mr. ‘Patrick? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. How often did you meet with Mr. Patrick? Mr. Werner. I met with Mr. Patrick, it would be accidentally . Mr. Wotr. Frequently? Not frequently? Once a year? Mr. Werner. I never met with him. I never had a planned meetin with him. It would be just like running into him at a restaurant. g Mr. Wotr. Do you know if Mr. Jack Ruby knew Mr. Patrick? Mr. Werner. I have no idea. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Barney Baker ? Mr. Werner. Yes. Mr. Worr. How do you know Mr. Baker? Mr. Werner. I know him through working for Allen Dorfman. Mr. Worr. Did Mr. Dorfman introduce you to Mr. Baker? _ Mr. Weiner. I don’t remember who introduced me to him. T think Paul Dorfman introduced me to Mr. Baker. Mr. Wotr. What period of time was that? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. Mr. Worr. How often have you met with Mr. Baker? Mr. Werner. I never met. with Mr. Baker, a premeditated meeting. Never met with him. Mr. Wor. Were you ever at any meeting that anybody else arranged ith Mr. Baker ? Mr. Werner. No. : Mr. Wo tr. Did you ever have any business dealings with Mr. Baker ‘? Mr. Werner. No; I haven't. Mr. Worr. Do you know if Jack Ruby knew Mr. Baker? Mr. Werner. I don’t have any idea. 1068 Mr. Wotr. Have you ever heard that Jack Ruby called Mr. Baker ? Mr. Weiner. I don’t know that either. Mr. Wo tr. No one has ever informed you that Jack Ruby telephoned Mr. Baker? Mr. Werner. No; nobody has. Wait a minute. That same newspaper man asked me about Barney Baker. Mr. Wor. What was your response? Mr. WEINER. My response was the same as it is now. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Louis Kutner? Mr. WEINER. No, Kutner? Mr. Wo rr. Yes. Mr. Werner. That attorney in Chicago? Mr. Worr. Yes. Mr. Werner. I don’t think I know him. Years ago I might have done some business for him in relation to a bond. Mr. Wotr. Do you remember what the bond was or who it was for? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. Dusty Miller? Mr. Werner. I met Mr. Dusty Miller. Mr. Wotr. How did you meet Mr. Miller? Mr. Weiner. It was in relation to the Teamster bond. Mr. Worr. In 1959? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Worr. Who introduced you to Mr. Miller? Mr. Weiner. I don’t know. 1t could have been—I don’t know. I don’t remember. Mr. Wor. What business dealings have you had with Mr. Miller? Mr. Werner. None. ma OLE Did you talk to Mr. Miller concerning the placement of a bond % Mr. Werner. Probably at the time. Mr. Wo tr. Did you ever discuss with Mr. Miller the problems Jimmy Hoffa was having with the Kennedy administration? Mr. Werner. No; I just knew him superficially. Mr. Wo rr. Did Mr. Miller ever discuss with you Edward Grady Partin? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo rr. Did you ever meet Mr. Partin? Mr. Werner. If I am not mistaken, Mr. Partin was from Florida. I think I had written a bond where Mr. Partin was an officer and I think there was a money discrepancy, that they were accusing Mr. Partin of taking some money, but I never heard any more. I got some letters from some attorneys, if I remember correctly, either represent- ing the union or the rank and file complaints about Mr. Partin. Mr. Wotr. When was that ? Mr. Werner. That would have to be when I had the Teamster bond. Mr. Wo tr. Have you ever met with Mr. Partin ? Mr. Werner. I don’t believe I did. Mr. Worr. Do you know Mr. Russell Matthews? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wo tr. Do you know Mr. David Elatkin ? Mr. Werner. No. 1069 eae Do you know Mr. Harry Hall, also known as Harry Mr. Werner. I think I do. Mr. Wotr. How do you know Mr. Haller ? Mr. Werner. I think I met him, it was in kim through one of the members of the Pensi relation—I think I met sion board. I don’t remember. The name sound on board, Teamster pen- s familiar. Mr. Wotr. What were the circumstances of that meeting? Mr. Werner. Just a casual meeting. Mr. Wotr. Did you say Teamster pension board ? Mr. Weiner. Pension fund. Mr. Wor. Who on the pension board introduced him Mr. Werner. I think it was a member from Ohio. ? I don’t remember. aie Wore. What conversations do you recall you have had with Mr. aller ? Mr. Werner. I never had any previous conversations other eral conversations, if that isthe same fellow. than gen- Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. Lawrence Meyers? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Ms. Jean West. Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wor. Known as Jean Aase ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Do you know Mr. James Braden ? Mr. Werner. Who? - Mr. Wotr. James Braden ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Woxr. Where were you when President Kennedy was assas- sinated on November 22? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember whether I was in Chicago or Florida. I could have been in Florida at the time. Mr. Worr. What were you doing in Florida at that time ? Mr. We1ner. Probably preparing for my legal matter with the attorneys. Mr. Woxr. Were you in Miami during the funeral of President Kennedy ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember if I was. Mr. Wour. When you were in Cuba and you saw Mr. Trafficante at the casino, did you see Mr. Trafficante at any other time while you were in Cuba? Mr. Werner. I saw him in Florida. EE Mr. Wotr. Did you see Mr. Trafficante any other time in Cuba? Mr. Werner. No. : Mr. Wotr. Did you know Mr. Trafficante had been in prison while he was in Cuba? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Worr. Did Mr. Trafficante ever discuss that fact with you? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Weiner, going back to your placement of the Team- ster pension bonds Mr. Werner. It was for every union employee or officer that had ecess to Teamster funds or property that belonged to the local union or international. 1070 Mr. Worr. That was an outgrowth of the Landrum-Griffin Act? Mr. WErNeEnr. That was the result of the Landrum-Griffin Act. Mr. Wo tr. It was September 14, 1959, that the act passed? Mr. WeErneER. I don’t remember that. Mr. Wo tr. You were in business with Mr. Allen Dorfman prior to the passage of that act? Mr. Werner. I was what ? Mr. Wotr. You were in business with Mr. Allen Dorfman prior to the passage of that act ? Mr. Werner. As a matter of fact I wasn’t in business with him at that time. It was Sol Schwartz. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Allen Dorfman personally introduced you to Mr. Jimmy Hoffa; is that correct ? Mr. Weiner. Correct. It could have been Paul Dorfman who intro- duced me to Jimmy Hoffa. Mr. Wo tr. How shortly after passage of that act did you first meet with Jimmy Hoffa? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. When they needed the placement of the bonds. Mr. Wotr. Could it have been September 17, which would be 3 days after passage of the act ? Mr. Werner. I don’t have any idea of the date. Mr. Wort. Is it possible it was September 17 ? Mr. Werner. It is possible. It could be any date in that area. I don’t remember when. | Mr. Wo tr. How did Mr. Dorfman choose you to place the bond that was necessary pursuant to that act? Mr. Werner. Because I was in the bond business and I knew him and he introduced me to his son, Sol Schwartz, and we got together to try to place a bond. Apparently Mr. Hoffa contacted him. Mr. Worr. You testified that your company wrote bonds for ap- proximately 18 months. Mr. Werner. In a group of companies. Mr. Wotr. That you were affiliated with. Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Woxr. And would Central Casualty Co. be one of the com- panies ? Mr. Werner. Yes; Central Casualty. United Benefit Fire, and the Oxford Agency. Mr. Wotr. Oxford Agency ? Mr. Werner. The Oxford Agency is the agency that eventually got the commissions. Mr. Worr. Was Cosmopolitan Insurance Co. one of them ? Mr. Werner. I don’t think so. Mr. Woxr. What was Weiner-Volin Insurance Co. ? Mr. Werner. That is an insurance agency. Mr. Woxr. Was that one of the companies ? Mr. Werner. Yes. That is my partner and myself. 7 Mr. Woxr. After 18 months what were the chances that your cor poration would no longer be writing bonds? Mr. Werner. I forgot what happened at the end of the 18-mont period. It seemed that one of the companies—in order to write tha 1071 bond you had to be qualified on the Federal list. It seemed lead companies—for some reas one on or other because of interp of the retation I arranged for the second group Mr. Woxr. Are you affiliated with of companies. the second group of companies? Mr. Wor. How much were group of companies to write busi you paid to arrange for the second ness? Mr. Werner. A couple of hundre remember correctly, in that area d thousand dollars I think, if , I Mr. Wotr. Who were the primary officers of that second group of companies ? Mr. Werner. The second group was called Resolute Insurance Co. of companies was one company. It reinsured with Lloyds. That was out of Hartford, Conn. They just the Mr. Wotr. Who were the individu extent of it. - Mr. Werner. A fellow by the als in Resolute Insurance Co. ? _ since passed away. He was the name of Lou Morganstern who has president and Owner. Mr. Worr. On the day of Presiden recall how you first heard the news t Kennedy’s assassination do you y Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Worr. You don’t remember whether or Miamiatthattime? or not you were in Chicago — r, WEINER. Where I was? I don’t remember r. Wotr. Who was the first person you how I got the news. President Kennedy was assassinated spok e to when you heard ? Mr. Werner. I don’t understand. Mr. Wotr. It was shocking. Most people remember where they were. Mr. Werner. I don’t remember where I was been in Florida. at that time. I could have . Mr. Wotr. What was your reaction upon hear Mr. Werner. Surprised, shocked, felt bad ing the news? other citizen would. about it, the same as any Mr. Worr. Do you know Mr. Ellis Gruber Mr. Weiner. No. ? Mr. Woxr. Mr. Weiner, you have stated that dealing you recall in Dallas was with Mr. Sol your one business What was the nature of business you had with Aman; is that correct? Mr. Werner. With Aman ? Mr. Aman? Mr. Wotr. Yes. Mr. Werner. He was in the building of cooki; ng Mr. Wo rr. How did vou first come in contact machines. with him ? Mr. Werner. With Mr. Aman? Mr. Worr. Yes. Mr. Werner. I met him in Chicago. Mr. Wotr. Who introduced you ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember how I met him. Mr. Worr. What tvne of bonds or business did you 05 do with him? Mr. Werner. Did I do with him? Mr. Worr. Yes. 1072 Mr. Werner. I had loaned him some money. As a matter of fact, he was in an executive placement, he had an executive placement business and I had 25 percent of it. Mr. Wour. How much money did you loan him ? Mr. Werner. The Ioan was actually a default on a loan that I guaran- teed at the bank for him. It was not a loan. He defaulted on a fund that I had paid off and that he was responsible for and then at a later date he called me and paid me the money. * ‘the Wotr. He had a loan to the bank and you paid his loan to the ank ¢ Mr. Werner. I had guaranteed his loan at the bank. Mr. Woxr. How did you come to guarantee his loan to the bank? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. Mr. Wo tr. Had you known Mr. Aman before this? Mr. Werner. Oh, sure. I wouldn’t do it for a stranger. Mr. Worr. How did you first come to meet him? Mr. Werner. I believe it was through an attorney by the name of Albert Shephard. Mr. Wotr. Where is that attorney located ? Mr. Werner. Right now he is in Los Angeles practicing law. Mr. Wotr. How much money was the loan for? Mr. Werner. I think I guaranteed a $35,000 loan and I think I paid | about $15 ; something like that. Mr. Woxr. What business dealings had you had with the insurance agent in Los Angeles prior to that ? ’ Mr. Wetner. He was an attorney here first. He was an attorney in Chicago. You asked me where he was at right now. I said Los Angeles. Mr. Wo r. He was an attorney in Chicago? Mr. WEINER. Sure. Mr. Wo tr. That is why you guaranteed this loan? Mr. Werner. I guaranteed it for two reasons. One, we were friendly, and, two, I was sort of in business with him at the time and making some money with him. SoI guaranteed the loan. Mr. Worr. Have you had any other business dealings with individ- uals in Dallas? Mr. WEINER. Just with Aman. Mr. Worr. None other? Mr. Werner. None other, that I know of. Mr. Wo tr. Do vou know Mr. Nofio Pecora ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. Jn vour discussions with Mr. Trafficante did he ever dis- cuss with you the CIA plots against Fidel Castro? Mr. Werner. I never had any discussions with Mr. Trafficante other than how are you and things of that sort. Never got involved with him in any wav. Mr. Worr. Did he ever discuss with you these plots? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Worr. Did Mr. Giancana ever discuss the plots with you? Mr. Werner. Absolutely not. Mr. Wotr. When did you first hear that Jack Ruby had shot Lee Harvey Oswald? 1073 Mr. Werner. When did I first hear it2 Mr. Wo r. Yes. Mr. Weiner. When he did it. Mr. Worr. Where were you at that time? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember where I was at that time either. ] could have been in Florida or Chicago, I had when he shot Oswald, I had to be in Flori to be in Florida because da at the time. Mr. Worr. Why were you in Florida? Mr. Werner. Because they called my daugh ter Mr. Worr. Your daughter called you in Florida right after that. Mr. Werner. She didn’t know where I was ? following day. They might have called her at. I called her the the following day. Mr. Worr. What was your first reaction upon hearing Jack Ruby shot Oswald ? Mr. Werner. I didn’t believe it. It was beyond my comprehension as to how or why. Mr. Wotr. Did you speak to an ybody about the fact that you knew Jack Ruby ? ~ Mr. Weiner. I might have. Mr. Wor. Whom might you have spoken to? | Mr. Werner. I don’t have any idea. Mr. Wotr. Did you speak to Mr. Alderisio? Mr. Werner. It could be. I don’t know. I don’t know I knew who Jack Ruby was. if at that time Mr. Wory. Did you speak to Mr. Trafficante? Mr. WErNeER. No. Mr. Woxr. Do you know if anybody hired Jack Ruby to kill Oswald ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Wotr. Do you know if anybody hired Lee Harvey assassinate President Kennedy ¢ Oswald to Mr. Werner. I wouldn’t know that either. Mr. Worr. To clarify the question I asked before, you answer question concerning the Dallas Cabana Hotel, are you ed the familiar with any financial arrangements for that hotel ? Mr. Weiner. No; I am not. Mr. Worr. Are you aware of the Cabana Hotel in Atlant a ? Mr. Weiner. No. Mr. Woxr. You never heard of that hotel ? Mr. Werner. T might have but T don’t remember hearing it. Mr. Woxr. Are you familiar with any jinancial arrangements for that hotel ? Mr. WEINER. No. Mr. Woxr. Mr. Chairman, that concludes the questioning we of this witness. Any questions that the committee members have ask at this time will be appropriate. desire to Mr. Preyer. Mr. Weiner, you indicated that you talked to Mike Shore recently about his call’ from Ruby and that Ruby was asking him to get a lawyer for him in Los An geles. Mr. Werner. No; I spoke to Mike Shore 2 days ago and T would be in Washington and I told him what for. In telling told him him that T evidently triggered his memory and he told me, he repeate d he had told me before, that he had helped arrange for the what legal 1074 ees of Jack Ruby through Earl Ruby, his brother, who had come} to him. Mr. Preyer. Why would Ruby need a lawyer in Los Angeles ? Mr. Weiner. Eventually I think the lawyer he hired was from San Francisco. I think that that is the attorney that Michael Shore knows. I am trying to think of his name. He was getting a lot of publicity an writeups. He was sort of a flamboyant character. I can’t think of hi name but he was from San Francisco. He did I believe represent Ruby for a while and then withdrew, if I remember correctly. Mr. Preyer. Was his name Melvin L. Belli? Mr. Werner. That is his name. Mr. Preyer. Ruby was trying to get Belli to represent him ? Mr. Werner. I think Michael Shore was instrumental. I believe h was, based on the conversation that I had with Michael Shore. Mr. Preyer. Did Michael Shore give you any indication of wh Ruby would hire a west coast lawyer for himself in Dallas? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. If I would rationalize I would say tha Earl Ruby probably heard of Melvin Belli and Michael Shore wa a friend of Earl Ruby’s and evidently Michael Shore helped try t arrange for Belli to represent him. This is what I gather out of m conversation with Michael Shore. Mr. Preyer. A month or a little more before the assassination 0 President Kennedy you received a call from Ruby as well as some o your friends, like Mike Shore, Barney Baker. | Mr. Werner. I never got a call from Barney Baker. I don’t know 1 I received a call from Mike Shore at that time. Mr. Preyer. Ruby did call a number of your friends? Mr. Werner. I don’t know that either. Mr. Preyer. There was no discussion between you and your friend about Ruby’s problems? Mr. Weiner. No; after everything happened naturally when some body would meet we would talk about it at that particular time bu I don’t remember any of my friends saying that Ruby called them. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Fithian. Mr. Frirutan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Weiner, when Mr. Ruby called you I believe you said in answe to the counsel’s question that you recognized him, recognized his voice Am I correct ? Mr. Werner. I didn’t recognize his voice. He introduced himsel over the phone. “This is Jack Ruby, Earl Ruby’s brother.” I am assum ing that is what happened at the time. I never knew Jack Ruby well I never knew him socially or in any possible way. Our paths neve crossed other than the fact he was Earl Ruby’s brother who was friend of mine. Mr. Frrutan. Did you know him in Chicago? Mr. WEINER. Yes. Mr. Frrutan. How long before he called you on the labor problem did you say that you had known him in Chicago? Mr. Werner. I am assuming it was in the 1930’s, late 1930’s. Or graduate from high school in 1934. It could have been prior to that Mr. Frruran. Did you ever know Ruby and Allen Dorfman to associated with one another, to be seen together? 1075 Mr. Werner. No; I believe that base that and as a matter of fact I told Alle d on conversations I had after with him and told him I was coming n I was coming here, I had met here, he never led me to believe that he knew Ruby or anything like that. Mr. Frruran. Could you associate in your has been a long time—can you associate in mind roughly—I know it your mind roughly whether or not Ruby would have been in Chicago with ing or associating with Dorfman prior to the possibility of know- Dorfman’s difficulties which caused him to leave Chicago? Mr. Werner. I don’t know that either. I have Allen Dorfman was a young kid then, in his no way of knowing. about 52 or 53. That would be a long time ago. thirties, I think he is Mr. Firuran. Would you again explain to think that Jack Ruby called you? This seems the committee why you that he is in, a little labor problem. to be a minor difficulty Mr. Werner. What he wanted to do with me evidently he wanted to get an Injunction again was to try to get me— remember correctly he would have to put up a st the other club. If I bond with the court in order to do that. Mr. Firutan. I understand that. It just seems Ine to grasp the argument that Ruby would have a little difficult for called you over this little difficulty or that Ruby would have tried to seek this fairly famous San Francisco lawyer. Mr. Werner. I didn’t try to see him. His brother tried ‘a result of Mike Shore. Mike Shore didn’t know to see him as J ack Ruby. He knew Earl Ruby. Earl Ruby was looking to retain counse brother. It wasn’t Jack Ruby that had any contact with l to help his I don’t believe Michael Shore even knew Jack Ruby. Michael Shore. Mr. Firntan. I guess my quandary still persists. Ruby’s problems Seemed so small. Mr. Werner. Wait a minute. I think we just got mixed reason that Earl Ruby was looking to retain counsel for him up a bit. The he killed Oswald. When Earl Ruby got involved with Michaeis because was after the slaying of Oswald. l Shore Mr. Frrutan. I had to step out for a few minutes. T may have his. When Ruby called you, where were you living at that time?missed Mr. Werner. 7345 North Damen in Chicago. Mr. Firntan. He called you from Dallas? Mr. Werner. I think he called me at my office or my home. I don’t ‘emember. Mr. Firutan. He was calling from Dallas? Mr. Wxrner. Yes; he called from Dallas. My. Frrutan. His difficulty was in Dallas? Mr. Werner. He called me. Mr. Frrutan. Doesn’t that strike you as being a little curious or someone who had, by your description, such a very casual that dge or acquaintance with you, hadn’t seen you in 15 or 30 knowl- years per- aps, that he would: (a) know that you were in the business vere in, in the bond business, and therefore were in a positio that you n to help im professionally; (b) know how to locate mou and » call somebody in Chicago when his little di culty over (c) bothered an Tipper was in Dallas? That does not seem to be a very amateur ory. credible 1076 Mr. Werner. I don’t care whether it is credible or not. That is exactly what happened. It was not incredible for a man like Ruby to hiss Oswald too but he did. Nobody would have dreamed that he would. Mr. Frrntan. I guess what I am saying is, the difficulty I am having with the fact that he might have remembered. | ) Mr. Werner. He might have called his brother for help and his brother might have referred him to me. He never called me since. The only phone call he ever placed with me was the one we are talking about. Mr. Firyian. How well did you know Earl Ruby? ) | Mr. Werner. I went to school with Earl Ruby. I knew him fairly well, the same as you know somebody you went to school with. ) Mr. Firutan. Had you maintained a continuing relationship wit| him or acquaintanceship with Earl Ruby after he went to school? , Mr. Werner. No. If I would see him we would talk. ; Mr. Firuian. Where was Earl Ruby now during this period 2 Mr. Werner. I don’t know. Mr. Firutan. Was he in Chicago or San Francisco? | Mr. Werner. I don’t know where he was. I don’t know where Earl Ruby was. | Mr. Frruian. Do you know Earl Ruby better than Jack Ruby? | Mr. Werner. Sure. I didn’t know Jack Ruby at all other than he was Earl’s brother. Mr. Firutan. I think those are all the questions I have. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Dodd. Mr. Dopp. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Weiner, did your daughter have occasion to be in your office in Chicago from time to time? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Dopp. It would have been impossible for Jack Ruby to have called your office at the time to try to reach you. He must have called your home. Mr. Weiner. Jack Ruby never talked to my daughter. Mr. Dopp. He never talked to her at all ? Mr. Werner. No. Mr. Dopp. So it could have been either the home or the office ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember which number he called. You have the number of it. Mr. Wo tr. The phone number was SH 38-6865. Mr. Werner. That would be my home number. Mr. Dopp. Is vour home phone number listed in the directory? Mr. WEINeER. Yes. Mr. Dopp. What was your relationship to Earl Ruby? Mr. Werner. Just went to school with him and knew him. I had no relationship with him other than just knowing him and going to school with him. Mr. Dopp. I understand that from your testimony. I appreciate the relationship, however slight it may have been around 1963. Had you seen him recently, had you run into him ? Mr. Werner. No. As a matter of fact I think I bumped into hi in the gym one time prior to that I believe. It was the first time I sa 1077 him for years and years. That had to be in the midtifties. That the last time I saw him. I haven’t seen was Mr. Dopp. Did you inquire why Jackhim since, I don’t think. Ruby called you? Mr. Werner. I don’t know. Mr. Dopp. So there was really no with Earl Ruby? By your own test relationship, to speak of, at all imony there was none with Jack Ruby, in fact even less with Jack Ruby ? Mr. Werner. Less with Jack Ruby, and mean we were friendly. I just knew Earl Ruby. I Mr. Dopp. Maybe you can apprecia fellow living in Dallas, Tex., that you have te my quandary. Why did a no contact with, had minimal contact, not seen in years, have had and that is even exaggerating I think, with his brother, why did he pick up a phone and call you at home ? Mr. Werner. I haven’t any idea. I am sure long distance phone calls, prior to he made some phone calls, calling me. Maybe from one of those—they have a record of that—may be from that you could find out how he got to me. _ Mr. Dopp. What I am intrigued by is have been curious as to why he would have whether or not you would Mr. Werner. No. I was not at all curious. called you. Mr. Dopp. It did not surprise you ? Mr. Werner. No; because that was my writing bonds. I would not be curious business. My business was about anybody wanting a bond. Mr. Dopp. Calling you at home about writ Mr. Werner. I got calls any hour of the ing a bond? Mr. Dopp. Was it common practice to day or night at home. get calls at home? Mr. Werner. Sure. I got oodles of calls office, the service would tell them to at home. If I was not in the call my home. Mr. Dopp. In your testimony earlier you entirely accurate to a teporter who indicated you had not been called you recently asking you similar questions about a telephone conve rsation with Jack Ruby. Mr. Werner. I was as accurate as they Mr. Dopp. Are you saying in effect, Mr. were with me. Weiner, that you lied to the veporter ? Mr. Werner. Any time I can. Mr. Dopp. You talked to Mr. Shore in Mr. Werner. Yes, the last week ? Mr. Dopp. In your conversation with Mr. 7ou discuss with him the alleged labor dispu Shore in the last week did ng at the time he made the phone conversa te that Jack Ruby was hav- Mr. Werner. No, I don’t believe I did. I tion just with you? don’t remember if I did or not. told him I was coming. Mr. Dopp. Why don’t you take a couple Mr. Werner. If you want me to say I of minutes and think? emember. Thinking about it would not did I will say I did. I don’t rhat I said to him. I might have gone throhelp me. I don’t remember ut I don’t remember if I did. ugh the whole bit with him, Mr. Dopp. How long ago did you talk to Mr. Mr. Werner. Three or four days ago. Shore? Mr. Dopp. How long was the phone conv ersation? 1078 Mr. Werner. I don’t know. There have been several phone conver- sations. It could have been short, it could have been long. I don’t know. Mr. Dopp. The last 2 or 3 days there have been several phone conver- sations ¢ Mr. Werner. Since I got the subpena there have been several. It was not in relation to the subpena. Mr. Dopp. How many times have you talked to Mr. Shore? Mr. Werner. When I received this subpena—let me see what day I received it—I got this on May 4. Since May 4 I would say I spoke to Mr. Shore maybe seven or eight times, which is not unusual. Mr. Doon. Your testimony to me right now is that you can’t remem- ber whether or not you talked about the alleged labor dispute that Jack Ruby cal!ed you about ? Mr. Werner. Right. I don’t remember talking about that. I just remeniber talking about that I am coming here in relation to the Jack Ruby thing and that he told me, “Yes, I tried to get him Meivin Bell.” | Mr. Dopp. Did you discuss the Ruby phone call to you at all in your | conversation ¢ ) Mr. Werner. I said I might have or I might not have. I talked to him” about it before. I don’t remember if I talked to him about this time. Mr. Dopp. Do you recall whether you told Mr. Shore what the sub- | stance of that conversation was? | Mr. Werner. Repeat that question again. | Mr. Dopp. Do you recall telling Mr. Shore what the substance of the Ruby telephone call to you was? Mr. Werner. On the last occasion? I don’t remember. If I did remem- her, if I did say it I would say I said it. I don’t remember whether I said it or not because there would be nothing wrong in me discussing it with him, if I did. . I am not trying to conceal anything. I just don’t remember. Mr. Dopp. You don’t remember? Mr. Werner. No; I don’t remember what I said to him at that par- ticular time other than just telling him I am coming here. I might have went through the whole bit with him but I don’t remember doing it. Mr. Dopp. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Prerer. Thank you. You mentioned Jack Ruby called you at your home telephone. Do you recall what your business phone number was at that time in 1963? Mr. Werner. Yes. Harrison 427-4848, the same number. : Mr. Preyer. Did you have access to any other business phones at that time, any other business phone numbers he might have called you at ? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember if I did or not. I am sure he would not call me at any other number either than those two numbers, at home or the bonding company. Mr. Preyer. Thank you. Are there any further questions? Mr. Dopp. Mr. Weiner, let me go back to that phone conversation. If I were to tell you that Jack Ruby made the phone call to you around noon on a Wednesday at your home, I presume you would not quarrel with that? | Mr. Werner. I don’t know if that is a fact or not. Mr. Dopp. Was there any record of a phone call to your office, the¥ secretary or someone referring him to you at home? | : 7 1079 _Mr. Werner. I don’t remember that either. My recollection is that he called and I wasn’t I don’t remember that. at the number that he called and I had called him back. That is my recoll Mr. Dopp. Did Mr. Shore at any time ever discus ection. phone conversation he had had with Jack Ruby arouns with you any that you received your phone call ? d the same time 4 oe Werner. As far as I understood, Mr. Shore didn’t know Jack uby. Mr. Dopp. So at no time at all has Mr. Shore ever said anythi you about any phone conversation or phone call he ever receive ng to d from Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. Right. He never said anything about that to me. _ Mr. Dopp. Mr. Weiner, I am going to state to you as a matter of fact that on October 25, 1963, at 10:09 a.m. in the morning Jack Ruby called Mike Shore at a New York City hotel and talked to him for minutes. On October 26 at 10:17 in the morning Jack Ruby called 18 Mike Shore in Los Angeles. On October 30, 1963, Jack Ruby sent Mike Shore a special delivery letter. On October 30, 1963, Jack Ruby called Mike Shore and spoke to him. On October 31, Jack Ruby called Mike Shore and spoke to him again. Has Mr. Shore ever at any time at all told you of his conversations with Jack Ruby? Mr. Werner. I will tell you again, absolutely not. Mr. Dopp. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Preyer. Mr. Wolf. Mr. Wotr. Mr. Weiner, if I could ask you one question. You stated Jack Ruby asked for a bond in conjunction with a proposed injunction concerning the labor problems he had. Did Ruby ask you for any help to deal with the labor problems he was having? Mr. Werner. I don’t remember. He might have. I don’t remember. Mr. Worr. That is all, Mr. Chairman. . ' Mr. Preyer. If there are no further questions the committee will excuse Mr. Weiner at this time.. Sy Under our rules after completion of the questioning each witness Is entitled to 5 minutes to say whatever he chooses to say or explain unything in his testimony that he wishes to explain further. ; So at this time we will make that offer to you if there is anything further you wish to say. Mr. Werner. Goodby, gentlemen. That is all I am saying. Have good day. ; Ais Mr. Preyer. We will excuse Mr. Weiner at this time. Mr. Weiner, [ will point out to you that, like all of our witnesses, you are under sontinuing subpena in this case. Mr. Werner. OK. I am available. Mr. Preyer. The committee will recess for about 5 minutes. [A brief recess was taken.| VG. Jack Rusy Curonoroarss: 1940-64 anp NovEMBER 22-24, 1963* 1366) 1940 to 1964. | *Prepared by Donald A. Purdy, Jr., senior staff counsel and Beth Anne ‘ichtenfels, document clerk. 1080 Date Event Source 194035 42. .t Soveeteres Dallas County Sheriff Steve Guthrie said in the 1960’s: ‘‘Whenever | Vol. 22, p. 297. bit to find anyone from the syndicate, | went to Ruby’s Silver pur ” The members of the Cosa Nostra who hung out at Jack’s place in the 1940's included Chicago mobsters Murray (the Camel) Humphreys, Pat Manno, Danny Lardino, Jack (Romeo) Knappi, who was a nephew of Frank (the Enforcer) Nitti. Guthrie gets Paul Rowland Jones indicted for attempting to bribe Guthrie in 1947. 1942 cere FE See eee: Paul Rowland Jones, a member of the Chicago syndicate, has a 30 percent Vol. 22, p. 297. interest in Southwestern Amusement Co., Western Amusement Co. and Delta Amusement Co. which operate gambling, slot machines, and juke boxes in Dallas. May 21, 1943___..____ Jack Ruby’s fingerprints are sent to U.S. Army, Chicago._..____________ CD 856:83. May Zen i943 ee Jack Ruby enters U.S. Air Corps until Feb. 21, 1946___________________ CD 1, FBI Report, vol. 5, p. 5. June 4-9, 1943______- ROUy IS4i, USAR, Maat GIS, ll... ces acscucao tte seco ceeeee eaiee cD $56.83, Jone!7; 1943 aes Ruby applies for National Service Life Insurance_______.____-_________ CD 323:1. June 10, 1943... _-___- Ruby isin MP RTC, Keesler Field, Miss......._........_._-_.________ CD 856:83. Late summer 1943 G. W. Fehrenbach says Jack Ruby attends 2d meeting of CP in Muncie, Ind_ Vol. 15, p. 308. until June 14, 1944, et eee to Feb, Ruby is in USAF, Seymour Jackson Field, N.C___._-...__-__._.______- CD 856:84. Fa 10AS a3 s5 ty Eva Grant is running a kitchen for Frankie Dolan in Los Angeles______.. CD 84, p. 26. SARA ee, ih Lifetime gambler Meyer Panitz moves to Dallas____.____...___________ CD 84, p. 106. August 1942/43______- Eva Grant first comes to Dallas (no reason given, no indication of whoknew CD 84:136. she was coming or why), October 1946._______- Ruby builds log cabin across the street from Mr. and Mrs. Yates (Log CD 4, p. 410. Cabin nightclub)? Visits it mostly on weekends and entertains mostly men, August 1947_________- Jack Ruby occupies a room in a Chicago hotel where Paul Rowland Jones, Vol. 22, p. 307. John Melton, Maurice C. Melton, and Taylor Crossland are meeting. Ruby denies meeting these men. UTS a aaa” AS eS Ralph Paul operates the Blue Bonnet Bar in the Blue Bonnet Hotel at Vol. 14, p. 136. 1300 Commerce near the Santa Fe Bidg. in 1948. 19483 S40. A eee ce Eva Grant says Jack came to Dallas in April or May 1948. She leaves CD 84, p. 136. Dallas for the west coast, returning to Dallas 2 or 3 times. She makes her home in Dallas as cf April 1959. TOS0) tens. ae eae Le sack Fung is on file with the Dallas Credit Bureau—unsatisfactory credit CD 4, p. 158. rating. 195] @2... VET 2262 2. Jack Ruby resides at YMCA and is operating the Silver Spur at 1717 Vol. 23, p. 58. South Ervay St. Ruby’s left forefinger is bitten off in a brawl with Willis D. Dickerson at the club. ELMO epeinl aiiaaecrae. Mrs. Alice Nichols thinks Jack Ruby bought Bob Wills Ranch House (and CD 4, p. 283. loses it in spring 1952). Claims it was too expensive to operate, and he did not have a partner in the operation of the Silver Spur or Ranch House. June 13, 1951_2_____-- Dallas Retail Merchants Credit Association believes Jack Ruby owns CD 4, p. 589. Silver S;-ur and Ranch House. July 20, 1951___...... Ralph Paul has been the owner of Blue Bonnet Bar since November 1948. CD 4, p. 603. Paul says he is married. November 1951_______ Ralph Paul resides at 2026 Wilbur, Dallas__................-._._.-_._- CD 4, p. 603. 1951-t0 1956 cee sete n Mrs. Harry B. Hammond operates Sue’s Used Car Lot, 3400 Live Oak. Ray CD 4, p. 317. Brondo (a.k.a. ‘‘Luck Moran’’) from San Antonio is a sales manager. 1952 te vee Ler ee Jack ‘tie aed Spur to Rocky Robinson who formerly operated a club CD 4, p. 284. on Home Rd. 1952a ee eee Jack owned Hernando’s Hideaway for a short time_____________________ CD 4, p. 284. 1952214 44. ere brs Jack Ruby is the manager for Hyman Fader at Bob Will’s Ranch House___ Vol. 22, p. 333. hp meant, Sanco tagline i Jack Ruby, still in residence at the YMCA, is operating the Silver Spur Vol. 22, p. 335. night club. Joe Bonds sells his interest in the Vegas Club to Ruby. — Aug. Ui-1953. 9% Ruby meets bond bailsman Max Rudberg when getting a girl out of jail. Vol. 23, p. 374. FBI SA R. J. Miles is present at Vincent Lee’s office. Lee tells Ruby that he'll have to post bond to guarantee the girls’ salaries. 195Br ee ee oot Alice Nichols thinks Ruby buys the Vegas Club from Abe Weinstein witha CD 4, p. 284. $2,500 loan from Ralph Paul. ; Maral 7,.1954.2. = 28. Jack Ruby applies for a dance hall license and reveals himself to be the Vol. 26, p. 560. sole owner and operator. He shows that he is operating and has an interest in Hernando’s Hideaway at this time. ropa 1004 eee ae ue sells Jack Ruby his remaining two-thirds interest in the Vol. 22, p. 336. egas Club. Gee]. 3906-6 DPD furnishes information to the FBI on Joe Bonds (Joseph Locurto) for CD 1102, p. 1. White Slave Traffic Act, but United States does not prosecute. 19553 Fie see Sam Rubenstein says Jack Ruby sold Silver Slipper to Rocky Robinson, CD 4, pp. 187-190. previously in business in Dallas, Robinson is unable to get a license, and the business is closed. Sam Rubenstein says Jack is associated with John Jackson of Jackson, Miss., in Min-lron, and with Martin Gimple in prefabricated log cabins, with a demonstration cabin built at Grapevine Lake. Sam Rubenstein says Jack is widely known by Dallas doctors. He also says Jack borrowed $5,500 from him in 1955; in 1956 he sues Jack for repayment. Jack makes the last repayment in 1958 and still owes $1,300. Nov..d,'10002. Junssed Jack Ruby changes his name from Rubenstein. ............-.-.------- Vol. 22, p. 493. 1081 Date Event Source ming tee 2S toy Shortly after 1956, Sam Rubenstein retained Marvin C. Schwiff, attorney, CD 85, p. 238. to draw up incorporation papers for manufacturing of plastic novelty items and to collect approximately $1,000 owed Sam by Jack. Jack came to talktoSchwiff about the $1,000. Jack remained in Schwiff’s office approximately 10 minutes and spent most of the time yelling curse words at him. After Ruby departed, Schwiff’s associate, Neil B. Wheeler, entered the office and advised Schwiff that Ruby was on the sidewalk outside still yelling curse words. eS ee Jack Ruby is living at 171914 South Ervay St. He has been operating the Vol. 22, p. 339. Silver Spur for eight years. mend? 1955) Fi 10 James Ecford Breen, a cabdriver, brings Ruby to meet ‘‘wife’’ Eileen Vol. 23, p. 369. Curry at Gaston apartment they rented in December 1955. Eileen Curry is to have 2 prostitutes in Statler-Hilton, which is nearing completion. A few days later, Ruby and a short, dark, white male return to take Breen to ao motion pictures of border guards, narcotics agents, Mexican contact. meb.'29, 1956. ........ Jack Ruby applies for dancehall license for Vegas Club_.............___ Vol. 26, p. 560. arab /*1956._ | Jack Ruby has a teleohone installed at 3929 Rawlins, apartment 1_______ Vol. 25, p. 248. LA 8-4775 is installed at the Vegas Club_.___.____________________. Vol. 25, p. 249. Jack Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, is living at 3929 Rawlins, apartment 1___ Vol. 26, p. 560. SS Alice Nichols thinks Jack manages Little Daddy Nelson, a dancer and CD 4, p. 287, drummer black boy. He takes him to Chicago. ae Sam Ruby says he is suing Jack over the $5,500 loan of previous year____ CD 4, p. 188 appears cer SRCLe Rumor: An FBI T-2 (Blaney Mack Johnson) that Ruby allegedly was CE 3063. = part of 1950’s. gy.418, 1958... Dun & Bradstreet show $7,336 in tax liens and judgment against Ruby____ Vol. 22, p. 339. ee Ruby is listed in the Dallas City directory as residing at 4156 Hawthorne Vol. 25, p. 165. with Johnney Meyers. eC) Ruby moves into apartment 105, 4727 Homer, TA 7-9883.___......_____ Vol. 25, p. 166. eerste 1959___..- Special Agent Charles Flynn of the FBI interviews Jack Ruby and asks him Dallas PD No. 22255.1 to be an informant. So Elaine Meyer takes message from Jack Ruby in Dallas to Lewis McWillie CD 84, pp. 215-216. in Cuba: ‘‘tell McWillie that Sparky from Chicago is coming.’’ He men- tions about 5 letters and numbers which are acoded message. McWill‘e responds to the message, ‘‘Heis nuts.’’ She said the message had word arriving in it. She also claims to have seen Ruby and McWillie frequently at the Dallas airport. She delivered the message in Havana, although hers was strictly a pleasure trip. merit 1959t_.¢ Sf Jay _ DPD receives letter from the Oklahoma City Police Department that Dallas CD 4, p. 155. gambler Sidney Siedbord has been arrested there with a list of names and telephone numbers, including Jack Ruby. June 20, 1959. _______ DPD arrests Ruby for dancehall violation at the Vegas Club_..__________- Vol. 22, p. 343. my 7, 195945 5S ey . FBI contacts Ruby for the 5th time for information __________._______. CD 732. UE DPD tells the FBI that Ruby’s name is found among those of other Dallas Vol. 23, p. 166. et at etc., on a Dallas gambler arrested in Oklahoma City on Apr. 2, aEee ae James E. Dunne II, president of International Life Insurance Co., Austin, CD 4, pp. 385-387. Tex., in the summer of 1959. ; mept, 7,'1959) °. joy | Mrs. Alice Nichols states that Ruby went to Cuba around Labor Day in 1959_ Vol. 14, p. 114. wept. 12, 1959_258___. INS says Ruby leaves Miami for Cuba on Sept. 12, 1959 ____.__________. Vol. 22, p. 859. me pt: 13/11959 9) _ lab_- INS says Jack Ruby returns to New Orleans from Cuba on Sept. 13, 1959__ Vol. 22, p. 859. es a Late 1$59, Slayton got James E. Dunne tc put up $5,000 for the Sovereign Vol. 23, p. 59. Club. Just before the Sovereign Club opened, the DPD raided several private clubs, and this made memberships hard to obtain. Ruby agreed to put up $5,000, and the Sovereign Club was incorporated. Ruby says that the $5,000 came fro.n a Chicago brother. Slayton believes it was really Ruby’s money and he wanted to protect it from claims by the IRS. mo. Ae 8) Jo Joe Slayton got $5,000 from James E. Dunne to start Sovereign Club_____- Vol. 22, p. 917. Nov. 10, 1959. _______ Telephone RI 7-2362 is installed at 131214 Commerce, the site of the Sov- Vol. 25, p. 241. ereign Club and subsequent Carousel Clua. This same number is used in Nov. 22, 1963, at the Carousel Club. mee 1Q59 5. fu | A —— lease on 131214 Commerce is signed by Jack Ruby and Joe Vol. 23, p. 145. Slayton. mec, 7,'1959: 3.2.21_- The Sovereign Clud is chartered. Before it opened in January or February Vol. 22, p. 917. 1960, Dunne says that Slayton brought Jack Ruby in for $10,000. Earl Ruby says he loaned Jack Ruby and Ralph Paul $6,000; the club folded Vol. 14, p. 382. within 6 months, and Earl Ruby took a $6,000 loss on income tax, 1960. Slayton says that the Sovereign Club opened in late January or early Feb- Vol. 23, p. 59. ruary and that business was so poor that the club was failing. ; Slayton says that the DPD raided several private clubs at this time, and Vol. 22, p, 917. this makes memberships hard to sell. mmra, 19602. A prizefighter seompanie by Ruby and a police officer were remembered Vol. 26, p. 499. by Ray Brantley about a gun purchased by Ruby. eh ee Ruby is living at the Continental House, apartment 105, 4727 Homer_.__ Vol. 26, p. 561. larch 1960/. 222222. Ruby applies for a dancehail license for the Vegas Club_____- ete IES Vol. 26, p. 560. arch 1960 (61)______ Jack’s brother Sam Rubenstein and Robert Eisman dissolve their partner- Vol. 21, p. 376. ship in a washeteria on South Ervay. , mes, 5, 1960. 2. tv _. Ruby goes to Dailas Internal Revenue Service to make his monthly $200 Vol. 23, p. 277. payment on back taxes, _ et Sy ee Ruby signs his tax return which has been prepared by Alexander Grant_____ Vol. 23, p. 232. April 1960___.__.--__- Accountant Rita Smukar handles records for the Vegas Club for Ruby since Vol 22, p. 335. 1958. She quits this accounting firm (Alexander Grant) and knows nothing of Ruby since this time. See footnote at end of table. u4-105 0 - 79 - 69 1082 SEee E ee ee Date Event Source April to December 1960.Jewel Brown says she danced at the Sovereign Club for 7 months__________ Vol. 25, p. 338. June 20, 1960_________ Ruby and the Sovereign Club sign a lease____.___._...............____- Vol. 23, p. 144. Dunes) 19605 eee Ruby owes IRS $17,542 for excise and withholding taxes_._.......________ Vol. 23, p. 308. Aug. 20, 1960________- Ruby is arrested by Dallas police for a dancehall violation at the Vegas Vol. 22, p. 343. Club and is fined $25. Sept. 16, 1960_______. Mickey Cohen is indicted for tax evasion.___._.._______________._____- pom of death, p. 103. Sept: 21, 1960222....- The only large deposit, $3,000, is made in the S & R Corp. bank account. Vol. 23, p. 138. It is made by Earl Ruby. Sept23.1900. 22a ee A check for $1,000 is honored on the S & R Corp. account__.___.____.______ Vol. 23, p. 138. September 1960______- Ralph Paul helps Jack after he buys Slayton’s interest in the Sovereign Vol. 14, p. 142. Club (a private club) and changes it to the Carousel Club (a public bu'lesque house). Sept. 21, 1960_______- A check for $2,000 is honored on the S & PR Corp. account______.__.____ Vol. 23, p. 138. Oct'6, 1960. 2a02 Ruby has a memo in his car on Nov. 24, 1963, which lists sums of money Vol. 22, p. 509. on a monthly basis, amounting to $5,050 beginning in September 1960 and ending in February 1961. This month’s entry says ‘‘Oct. 6, 1960— $500, 1960—$500.’’ Dec. 6, 1960_________- Jack Ruby’s memo has an entry for Dec. 6, 1960—$500________ Ale. Vol. 22, p. 509. January 1961________- Breck Wall and Joe Peterson produce a floor show at the Sovereign Club Vol. 14, pp. 143, 340, f E 457, 491, 494, 601, Ruby reneges on an agreement drawn by his attorney, Vic Victorson, 616, 617; vol. 21, which would have given them a part ownership of the club. The only p. 381. Jan.1 19h Ao Texas Liquor Control Board shows the Sovereign Club, Inc., 131214 Vol. 22, p. 506. Commerce St., on the private club register. danse TOG) Parc ay Dallas gambler, Lewis McWillie, Ruby’s friend, leaves Cuba_...._.______ Vol. 23, pp. 162, 171. Jan..3,,1961 5. 92. ae Cuba breaks diplomatic relations with the United States... Vol. 23, p. 171. Janu5,, 1961. 2528 2S ~ Ruby’s memorandum, found in his car Nov. 24, 1963, lists sums of money Vol. 22, p. 509. $500. Jan. 30, 1961________- Ibid.g/3anz.30,51961—$500Hie ites retn) bs hobs I aan), 3 panel _ xp 22 pp. 343, 509, Feb. 215296). At et The S & R Corp., d.b.a. the Carousel Club, applies for a beer license. It Vol. 22, pp. 343, 509, lists Ralph Paul, Jack Ruby, and Sam Ruby as officers. 928. March 1961___..______ Ruby's brother, Sam, and Robert Eisman dissolve their partnership in Vol. 14, p. 498. the washeteria at 1713 South Ervay. Do___.---.------ Stripper Tami True gets a job at the Carousel Club through Shari Lynn Vol. 15, p. 406. and works there through the summer of 1962. Mar. 21, 1961_...._.-_ This is the last time Ruby went into his lockbox at the Merchants State Vol. 7 palo We Bank. He had the box on Nov. 24, 1963, but it was empty when checked. LL eeCt Ae Roby:qwed-the IRS $19,578» =P.) 7.28 oii Get oN gs OF Vol. 23, p. 309. May 19612 se tags Nancy Perrin Rich works for the Carousel Club as a bartender______-_ Vol. 14, p. 340. Dott 2.25. fed. geet cd works as a singer and comedian at the Carousel Club for Vol. 25, p. 345. 0 5 weeks. Doe 550s oe H. D. Bostick, 617 Cheyenne Rd., Dallas, works as a bartender and door- Vol. 25, pp. 357-358. ment the Carousel Club. His wife, Norme Jean, works as a dancer and cashier. Of Oe a ee Rilby gets a beer license for the Carousel Club. Buddy King was MC atthe Vol. 22, p. 343. ime. Doss... te _- Dallas police officer Harry Olsen meets Jack Ruby. Olsen knew of Jack’s Vol. 14, pp. 621, 639. ouban trip and thought it was for the purpose of obtaining nightclub acts, DO seen snndéeacks; by Sans a tax return prepared by Fred M. Schreiner, 4515 Live Oak, Vol. 23, p. 220. allas. 3URG.1961 o5csckn ken. Gambler Lewis McWillie goes to Lake Tahoe from Florida and stays over- Vol. 23, p. 172. night with Ruby in Dallas. ; Y Dots soy Kathy Kay Coleman moves to Dallas. She is a Carousel Club stripper in Vol. 14, p. 642. 1963 and dates Dallas police officer Harry Olsen. Dai? tine. Jack Ruby is reported to be at a Honolulu nightclub with 1 man from Vol. 22, p. 869. Dallas and 1 man from Chicago. JU0@. 24.0001. ocase Ruby owed the (RS $18,879.05 °° Jo. 790.9 bo te es RO ATOR” Vol. 23, p. 310. July 175196122 ear. S & R Corp. forfeits right to do business in Texas_____._______________ Vol. 23, p. 29. July oS en? geass Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant, moves into 3929 Rawlins, apartment 1. Jack Ruby Vol, 25, p. 165. never lives there. Domes 2.86 kcs - Kathy Kay Ccleman starts to work as a stripper at the Carousel Club. She Vol. 14, p. 642. works on and off until Nov. 22, 1963. 1083 Date Event Source Sept. 12, 1961________ George Senator, who is Jack Ruby’s roommat rested on a drunk and disordeily charge. e on Nov. 24, 1963, is ar- Vol. 14, p. 180, Senator says that he and an- other ae : cua the okadba a ee ing In a lounge and were going for coffee Uahts They had been drink- mr 20,,1961 2... 2 an something to eat. Jack Ruby owed the IRS $20,826... November 1961_______ Tony Boland starts working sol te gh Vol. 23, p. 311. as the bouncer tion to his bouncer job at the Vegas Club,atwhichthe Carousel Club, in addi- Vol. 25, p. 718. 1961. He works at the Carousel until February 1962.he started in October December 1961_______ Dallas police officer Harry Olsen Says that known Jack Ruby for 2 years, which wouldon Dec. 12, 1963, that he has Vol. 22, p. 901. have placed the meeting in vi 1961. (In vol. 14, on p. 621, Olsen said he met () { Ruby in May January 1962___._____ Ruby’s good friend Martin Gimple dies of a heait Eva Grant says he works for the Post Office. attack in Chicago where Vol. 14, p. 290. Jan. 16, 162_________ Dailas IRS agent talks with Ruby over the phone... Vol. 23, p. 294, mempeoe(SG2: 2Sinl Dallas IRS agent talks to Ruby fee 14,1962. by phone. He owes the IRS $20,676. 73___ Vol. 23, __ Ruby goes to the Dallas IRS office... p. 312, fmarch 1862_« 8° «v_ W. W. Litchfield, who has served 2 jail terms Vol. 23, p. 295, for hot checks and vagrancy, Vol. 14, p, 96. goes to work for the Spencer International Press selling books in the Hebe Fe Worth area until May 1963, when he is transferred to San ose, Calif. March/April 1962______ Ruby and George Senator have been living at the Carousel Club since Vol. 14, p. 188, November 1961. They move to 500 South Marsalis apartment, and Sen- ator stays there with Ruby until leaving in August “thes worked at the Carousel as a doorman from 1962. Senator says - March until August Mar. 24, 1962_________ Ralph Paul, Ruby’s silent partner, buys a 1962 Cadillac Mar. 28, 1962_________ Rubyiiwos the FRS $39, 190lue wf Nevig hee erga for $5,925. s Vo Vol. 21, p. 36. a P9963. Earl Ruby sends a telegram to Havana (one source says Wage Vol. 23, p. 314. member having sent a telegram to Havana). Earl cannot re- Vol. 14, p. 384, «=O Le bse otPalmer, becomes the AGVA Dallas branch manager, succeeding Vol. 22, p. 870. on Sharpe. May 5,.1962_..2.____- Andrew Armstrong, who was released from prison after serving conviction, starts working for Ruby as bartender and assistant a narcotics Vol. 13, pp. 308, 317. manager at the Carousel Club. May 19, 1962_________ pba hee his 1961 income tax return which had been prepared by Vol. 23, p. 214. Ob Weaver. fe 1962)! o PS joy: Roy William Pike (a.k.a. Mickey Ryan) meets Ruby at the Carousel Club. Vol. 22, p. 338. Pike has been in and out of Dallas for 10 years. He asks Jack for a job under the name of Mike Ryan. may 1, 1962 « S¢ by. Stripper Julie Taylor works for 5 weeks at the Carousel Club. Her husband Vol. 23, prel. is the master of ceremonies (Rickey Case). She thinks she worked the middle of July until August. She recalls a party for the club from employ- ees &t Ruby's home. mer 4, 1962. Fisher, who is an alcholic, says that Ruby has a party at his apartment for Vol. 23, p. 352. his employees. August 1962.__.______ Senator moves from Ruby’s apartment on Marsalis to Stan Corbat’s apart- Vol. 14, p. 176; vol. ment in the Grandbury Apartments on Maple Ave. Corbat is a dress buyer for Titche’s. : 4, summer 1962_________ : Tammi True who has been stripping at the Carousel Club since March Vol. 15, p. 407. 1961 goes to Houston. ee 201962. Ruby buys a $50 American Express money order for the Herald_________ pug. 29, 1962.___.___- Vol. 22, p. 509. oo (a.k.a. Robert Starr) commits suicide by arsenic poisoning in New Vol. 14, p. 335. rleans. DSR Seer! Nancy Perrin Rich claims she and her husband were involved with a Vol. Dallas plot to smuggle arms into Cuba. 14, p. 335; vol. ‘ eptember 1962______ Frank Ferraro ‘‘lives with’’ Ruby on Marsalis or at the Carousel Club. Vol. Pl east 23, p. 143. Also, it is said that Ferraro started staying at the Carousel Club in August. He and Ruby get into a fight at the Lasso Bar across the street from the Baker Hotel. Attorney John B. Wilson who is in the Lasso Bar separates them. Ferraro quits working for Ruby right after the fight. ictober 1962__.._____Ruby gets a traffic ticket for running a red light and lists his residence as Vol. 23, p. 9. 500 South Marsalis. tober 1961_________ Ruby buys a $60 American Express money order for the Herald. tober 1962___.__.._ Snider entertained for 3 weeks at Pat Morgan’s and Morgan introduced 2) ued | Vol. 22, p. 509. _Vol. 26, p. 605. mer0, 1962. Ruby buys a $25 American Express money order_._................___. mn, 2, 1062. Vol. 22, p. 509. > Ruby buys a $60 American Express money order for the Herald.....___ me. 1(49629..005 JOY. Ruby buys an American Express money order__.__.._.._........._____ _ Vol. 22, p. 509. me. 9, 19625 5% in? | Ruby buys a $55 American Express order for the‘Heraldsi .. Vol. 22, p. 509. prot ean Vol. 22, p. 510. me, 137196252521 | Ruby moves from 500 Marsalis to 223 South Ewing St., apartment 207____ Vol. 21, pp. 434, 437. DOs 2.dch sla - Receipt for $40 deposit on 223 South Ewing is signed by John D. vember 1962_______ It is suggested that Ruby went to Houston and New Orleans, en Norman__ route to. Vol. 22, p. 510. Vol. 14, p. 150. New York City, where he arrived at 11 p.m. Sunday night. This is in- accurate because Ruby made several phone calls from Ewing and the Carousel on Sunday, which means he returned to Dallas before going to New York City. Senator says that the Houston/New York City aR ismade over a 3- or 4-day period. Senator says this is the only trip that Ruby makes between November 1962 and November 1963. Ralph Paul says that he is the only one to know that Jack went to New York City. Paul says Jack did not go out of town after the New York trip. , SS ny | Tony Boland resumes work as Vegas Club bouncer and is there until' me 1962 12% Vol. 25, p. 718. January 1963. 1084 —_—_— Date Event Source November 1962______- Roy William Pike (a.k.a. Mike Ryan) meets Ruby and works for him for Vol. 25, p. 282; vol. 2 months. After that, Pike sells cars in Fort Worth and goes to parties 22, p. 338. with Jack Ruby. f DO Mi eese sects About a year before December 1963, a Las Vegas bell captain says that Vol. 23, p. 75. Jack Ruby came to Las Vegas. He said Ruby asked him to make a reser- vation on a Chicago flight. Ruby changed the name to be used for the reservation from Ruby to Rubenstein during the time that the bell captain was trying to make the reservation. Doses ae During the ‘‘past year,’’ from December 1963, the caddymaster at the Tropicanna in Las Vegas recalled getting a Carousel Club card and an invitation to come to Dallas. Dobe steer Harmon Schepps, a Dallas businessman who might be a backer for Vol. 23, p. 47. Ruby, takes the Weinbergs, who have control of the Dallas Transit Co., to the Carousel Club. NOV2 2721962: ee 44s Ruby gets an unlisted telephone number, WH 1-5601_______.________ Vol. 25, p. 237. Nov. 29, 1962__.__.._- a makes the first contact with attorney Graham M. Koch regarding his Vol. 25, p. 176. ax problems. December 1962______- About a year before, on Dec. 19, 1963, Mrs. Wanda Minnix answers an ad Vol. 25, p. 335. Club. Dec 5 419622620 oe Donnie Voorhis, operator of the Montmarte Club, says that he knows CE 2875. Ruby but not Oswald. Dec. 17, 1962________- Robert McEwan is entertaining at the Carousel Club until Jan. 14, 1963__ Vol. 23, p. 348. Dec. 31419622 oe Jar: - pee ates a motel party given by Bobby O’Day. Other entertainers Vol. 23, p. 349. attend. Dos eee eet Breck Wall and Joe Peterson are living in room 1703, Adolphus Hotel, Vol. 25, p. 276. Dallas, until Feb. 15, 1963. dani2, 1903 en Castro says a ‘“‘river of blood’’ separates the United States and Cuba__.. Alfred Newman ‘Assassination 0 , LAC p35 2a, Jane P1963 eee Regular nonstop service by jet to Havana from the U.S.S.R. begins_______ Id. at 62, 302 Jan. 17, 1963_____-... Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, the ‘‘Bull Pen Drive In,’’ from the Car- Vol. 22, p. 514. ousel Club telephone, RI 7—2362. The toll charge is $0.65. Jan. 2041963. oegay Precious Diamond (stage name of Helen Vines) is replaced by Gaii Raven Vol. 23, p. 155. (stage name of Barbara O'Reilly) as a stripper at the T-Bone Club, Wichita, Kans. Jan..26,,1963. 5o. fu _ Ruby is at the T-Bone Club, Wichita, Kans., to see Gail Raven, who starts Vol. 22, p. 874. performing there on Jan. 20, 1963. anne. 1963re2e-- 22 Casa Siesta Motel, Wichita, Kansas, says that Gail Raven is registered CD 360, p. 121. wat Jan. 27, 1963 to Feb. 13, 1963, but that Ruby is not reg- istered. Janel, 1963_. 222 22-= Ruby borrows $1,375 from the Merchants State Bank on his 1960 Oldsmo- Vol. 14, pp. 61. bile (formerly owned by W. A. Weldenbenner, 513 Robinwood, Irving). 617; vol. 23, p. 1] Break Wall (Billy Ray Wilson) tells of Ruby getting a car loan “‘in 10 vol. 26, p. 846. minutes’ to be able to lend Wall $300 for a New York trip. January 1963_________ Robert McEwan, Newport, Ky., worked for Ruby at the Carousel Club, CR 105, p. 318. Dallas, from the week before Christmas, 1962, until 2 weeks in January 1963 and saw him on a daily basis. Do 2ef_2 4) fa _ Virgil Peel, Wichita, Kans. was introduced by Gail Raven to Ruby at the CR 86, p. 486. T-Bone Club, Wichita, Kans. Do___...-------. Ruby purchased a 1960 Oldsmobile 2-door from William A. Weldenben- CR 105, p. 318. ner on about Jan. 24, 1963. : Dofhi.g £2 toy Bobby Gene Moore, Oakland, Calif., saw Ruby in Dallas, exact date un- CR 86, p. 486. known, while visiting Dallas from Oakland, Calif. Do___._.-.-.---- Bobby Gene Moore, who played the piano at the Vegas Club from 1952 CD 84, p. 92. until 1965 and knows someone in the Mafia in Dallas, is in Dallas. DOF ee Sets eee Lt. Floyd Hannon, Wichita, Kans., Police Department, advises that Ruby CR 86, p. 486. stayed at Casa Siesta Motel, Wichita, Kans., and was seen by Gail Raven q of the T-Bone Club, Wichita. Doses. 2 8¢_ley | Roy W. Pike (a.k.a. Mickey Ryan) leaves Ruby’s employ after 2 months Vol. 25, p. 283. and goes to Fort Worth to sell cars. Pike says that he visits Dallas occasionally, usually to date 2 of the Carousel Club strippers, one being his wife (divorced on July 23, 1964), Ramona Wagner (a.k.a. Tuesday Ryan), the other a stripper living with a retired Corpus Christi district judge, Cullen Briggs. Dost 2 SP ee. Tony Boland quits as the Vegas Club bouncer_____.__.-.---.-.-------- Vol. 25, p. 718. Do4!?.2. ~o tay - Stripper Reba Jane Lann quits after working for Ruby for more than 1 year_ Vol. 23, p. 24. Dole ae 3 Se. On Dec. 21, 1963, Ruby tells the FBI he has never been to Wichita, Kans. CD 1252, p. 18. Do5}?_ 2. Se toy - T-Bone Club waitress Cornwell admits that she lied in first stating that Vol. 23, p. 70. Ruby came to see stripper Precious Diamond about 1 year before 1963. Doct 2 heer © One weekend, shortly after he moves into apartment 207, at 223 South Vol. 22, p. 874. Ewing, Ruby asks tenants Miss Smalley and Miss Wallace to take care of his dogs over the weekend. DOseee sort: pied f with a couple from Dallas. The man is average size, the woman Vol. 23, p. 103. onde. Doe ee Ruby’s backer, Raloh Paul, buys Bowman’s 50 percent interest in the Vol. 14, pp. 140, 1 Bull-Pen, an Arlington drive-in. They have been partners there since 1958, On Nov. 24, 1963, Ralph Paul is living with Mrs. Bowman. Feb. 3;1963=_3¢ say _ Ruby calls Houston, FA 3-7069; thetoll charge is $1.80__._-._________- Vol. 22, p. 514. Do Josephine A. Bunce, ‘‘Champagne Girl,’’ starts work at the Carousel Club Vol. 22, p. 903. for 2 weeks. She lives with Ruby. 1085 Date Event Source Se ‘Feb. 7, 1963__._______ Ruby Feb. 8, 1963__________ Houstoncallscalls Houston twice. Toll charges are $6.20 and 1.50 Ruby collect; the charges are re ep. 9, 1963. 202 Houston calls Ruby collect, ape Rete vol 5 a ta faep, 10, 1963________ Ruby calls North Richland the charges are $0000 28 FO TOOK oFYee ol. 22, p. 514 fev. 11, 1963__-- Jackson, Kans., calls Ruby Hills twice—BU 1-2801; tolls are $0.30 and $1__ Vol. 22' p. 514 1 Feb. 12, 1963__._.____ Ruby is arrested by the DPDcollect; the charges are $2.95... °c for simple assault... ol. 22. p. 514 Feb. 13, 1963_________ Ralph Paul bought a 7 CR 86, p. 486 $2,200 cashiers check amount is tbe) to 4 months rent at $550 a for theS &R Corp., which Vol. 21 p. 36. month. (S & R was identified ; cHPaul as the Carousel Club.) i Feb. 14, 1963_._._____ Realtor Watson writes to Ruby that the Carousel Club is past due in rent, amounting to $1,650. Vol. 23, p. 144. Dore fi 53 Oe Ruby calls Long Beach, Calif., HE 7-9407; the charges ; calls Arlington; the charges are $1.13. are $2.25, He also Voi. 22, p. 514. eb. 15,-1963_.._.____ at act fight with Don Tabon at the Burgundy Room, Aldolphus otel, Dallas. CR 86, p. 486. ire. 20, 1963...) Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891; tFeb. 22, 1963... ____ Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-9507; the charges are SU.25202 4. Sige trwR Vol. 22, p. the charges are $0.25. Arlington calls Vol. 22, p. 514. 514, Ruby; the charges are $0.45. eT 1963 2 8. 4 Ruby advances $45.70 in salary Dols6 to Burney Lane... Vol. 22, p. 510. 8 oy i Ruby is found not guilty mem. 28, 1963__._____ Ruby hits the Volkswagen ofofassaultin g Don Tabon on Feb. 127 1963.2 te Odus Rhodes at Ross and Lamar. He settles Vol. 12, p. 64. the claim for $50 on Apr. 4, 1963. Vol. 22, p. 510. February 1963________ Mrs. Bertha Cheek operates a club on Browder for Frank and Virginia Vol. 13, p. 395, _ Nick for a month. 1) pel ee cain Jim Jonker, Wichita, Kans., saw Ruby at the ee T-Bone Club, Wichita, Kans___ CR 86, p. 486. a Ruby receives a traffic citation, 640979, at Ross and Lamar ead dia Gail Raven, Woodsboro, Sts., Dallas_____ CR 105. Tex., receives a call Wichita, Kans. He offered to fly to Wichita andfrom Ruby. She was at CR 360. return her to Dallas. 1 AD ee Ruby is aquitted on simple assault charges on Feb, 27,1 Oli es natin and Joe Peterson are living in rooms 1980 and963... Vol. 23, p. 561, 1981 at the Vol. 25, p. 276. olphus. Oy Aonae Jack Ruby gets into a fight with Don Tabon, 8546 Forest Hills, in the Vol. 23, p. 17; vol. 24, Burgundy Room, Adolphus Hotel, at 11 p.m. Detective J. B. Toney of the p. 231. Forgery Bureau arrests Ruby after the fight. ee), 19639 => 0) | Ruby made these calls: Fort Worth, 55¢; Arlington, CR 4-5816—25¢: Vol. 22, p. 514. CR 4-5816—25¢; CR 5-4891—45¢. Dor85 eOY | Ruby and S$ & R, Inc., sign a new lease for 131214 Commerce McKnight, who is an employee of Watson & Watson Realtors.with Alva Vol. 23, p. 144. a. 10,°1969_ 262 20" | Larry Craiard, who was living at the Carousel Club on Nov. 22, 1963, Vol. 13, pp. 411, 497. married a Dallas girl on June 16, 1962, but had been separated her for some time. He claimed that she was a lesbian. She supposedly from gave birth to a child in Dallas, but Crafard does not think the child is hers. He rejoined her on Mar. 14, 1963. ie FS,21 965 cen OF The IRS files liens totaling $20,880 against Ruby. There are 4 claims: Dallas Morning $18,561; $24.22; $2,246: $48.78. These liens are uncollected on Nov. 24, News, Dec. 4, 963. Ruby owes the State of Texas $1,700 in taxes as of Dec. 6, 1963. are 14.77963) <6) oY Ruby is arrested at 106 South Harwood (City Hall) for ignoring 1963 summons; he posts a $35 bond. a traffic Vol. 23, p. 18. a , ae Ruby is arrested by the DPD for an alias ticket 240402229) weenie PO BE oy Larry Crafard, who is living at the Carousel Club on Nov. 22, 1963, comes | CR 86, p. 486. to stay in his in-laws Wohn Case) trailer at the Letot Trailer Court. Vol. 13, pp. 412, 497. Dallas. Crafard rents a trailer. Crafard can drive. La Ruby gets a parking ticket on his car in the 20060 block of Commerce, which is the block with the City Hall, at 10:40 a.m. Vol. 22, p. 512. Bl; 10g 2 OF Tammi True (Nancy Monnell Powell) quits as a Carousel stripper because Vol. 15, p. 409. of a controversy over Carousel Club master of ceremonies Wally Weston and his wife, stripper Shari Angel. Tammi goes to Tulsa for the last 2 weeks in March. . ay 21,.1963.-.. Larry Crafard starts to work for Ablon Poultry in Dallas. Meyer Ablon Vol. 13, p. 413. owns the Chateau Night Club. He was an associate of Ruby and Joe Bonds during 1955-57. ‘ i me 23, 1963852 20) A $55 check, dated Mar. 23, 1963, signed by Laurie Adams, 4010 Live Vol. 22, p. 510. Oak, and drawn on Oak Cliff Bank & Trust, is found in Ruby’s posses- sions on Nov. 24, 1963. 25, 1963)) Ruby calls his Dallas IRS agent. The IRS's status report shows that Ruby Vol. 23, pp. 299, 314, owes more than $39,000 for the last 214-year period. et 1963 22 Ruby visits Rabbi Silverman with 6 dogs-_____-___________.......____ Dallas Times Herald, Mar, 12, ANAS ES RS Slee 1964, Bruce Carlin, who is iater Little Lynn’s common-law husband, rents a Vol. 25, p. 270. garage 2partment at 3809 Meadowbrook, Fort Worth, for 4 to 6 weeks. On Oct. i6, 1963, Catlin and Little Lynn rent the same apartment. i ke OD a Harvey Davis Bostick, 617 Cheyenne, and his wife !>ave Ruby's employ- Vol. 25, pp. 357-358 . ment for the second time, having worked from December 1962 until Marcn 1963. Bostick has been working at the Vegas Club. He goes on the road and returns in early 1963. ges 7021 oy Ruby calls from the Carousel: Edna, Tex., OL 7-3025 for 3 minutes; OL Vol. 25, p. 253. 7-4554 for 2 minutes. ; -10, 1963... Stripper Tammi True goes to Kansas City from Tulsa for a 2-week en- Vol. 15, p. 409. gagement. he Te ; Raby buve a license for a 1960 Oldsmobile. He had a 1956 ; Oldsmobile or Vol. 22, p. 509. Apr. 2, 1962. 1086 a Senne pacespes eon sidan so — ——= Date Event Source Apr. 4, 1963_____.__..Ruby ais a $50 cashiers check for Mickey Ann Rhodes, which is possibly Vol. 22, p. 510. a settlement for the February 28 accident. Dossa. o Sete Ruby is known to be an associate of Fileen Curry, a known prostitute who CD 4, p. 155. resides at the Shadyside Apartments, 1020 Shadyside Lane. Dojs4.2 20sec Ruby calle a Dallas (RS agentucds cin tht ced ation leneieeeedeet. VOI. 23, p. 300. Apr. 10, 1963_________ Ruby calls Clarence Rector, Sulphur Springs, Tex., for 3 minutes from the Vol. 22, p. 517. Carousel Club. The toll was $0.95. . Ani 14 19635222 sce abeAilelt ewela Tulsa says that Tammi True is there from Apr. 14, 1963 Voi, 23, p. 73. o June 6, 1963. Do....------..-- Ruby takes new Carousel Club stripper Dior Angel (Delores Silva) to din- Vol. 22, p. 902. _her and shows her around. Apr. 1551963. 22220 . Dior Angel begins a 3-week to 4-week engagement at the Carousel Club_ Vol. 22, p. 902. Apr. 16-17, 1963______ Bay of Pigs invasion cf Cuba takes place.............. SCC 3120. Apr. 20, 1963________- The Adolphus makes a contract for Breck Wali’s musical review “‘Bot- Yo}. 26, p. 550. toms Up”’ to Aug. 3, 1963. Apt. 21-3963. 32 27° Ruby calls Arlington CR 5-4891 for i minute from the Carousel; toll, 25¢_ Vol. 22, p. 517. Apr. 2231963. Se teu. Ruby calls Arlington; toll, $1.85. .--._- 2-22. 2-222-222-2222. Vol. 22, p. 517. Do....-.-.-.---- Dallas IRS agent reports Ruby was in “‘very much of a hurry to leave, had Voi, 23, p. 301. urgent business to attend to’’ (reference to Ruby as T.P.). Apr. 23, 1963________- RUDY cas aungton, CR 5-4891, for 1 minute from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 517. e toll is 25¢. ADT 24. 1903-62 oe Ruby calls Candy Barr (Juanita Slusher), Edna, Tex., for 5 minutes, OL Vol 22, 0.51. 7-4411, from the Carousel Club. The toll is $2.59. April 1963......_..- AGVA official Palmer says that Carousel Club stripper Kathy Kay Coleman Vol. 14, p. 627. had openly been living with Officer Harry Oisen at least 6months before Nov, 22, 1963. Officer Olsen and his wife have been separated and are divorced in October 1963. In the fali of 1963, Olsen is living on Theatre Lane, which is between Bowser and Newman beside the M-K-T RR. tracks, Dow 328 22. Larry Crafard ends his employment with the Ablon Poultry Co., which Vol. 13, p. 413. began on Mar, 21, 1963, and begins working for Porta-Building at Hines Ciicle for 114 months. WG 5 ining he Mesa Jules Henry Herbert, Port Arthur, Tex., meets Ruby in the Sheraton CR 360, Lincoln Hotei in Houston, Tex. May 1; 1963.22: 2.4 - Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891; the toll was 60¢__._________..._.__.. Vol. 22, p. 517. DM te$tahitian Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 6 minutes from the Carouse! Club_ Vol. 25, p. 253. May'5, 1903. 2¢ ev Ruby calls Houston, CA 2-1351, for 24 minutes from the Carousel Club Vol. 25, p. 253. (this is the Sam Houston Hotel). : May77, 1963. 27- ee - From his Ewing apartment, Ruby calls Nashville, Tenn., AL 5-6166, for Vol. 25, p. 252. 21 minutes. This is the Rainbow Club, 4th Ave. May 831963... 222+ Ruby rents a car in Houston at 3:48 p.m. He drives to Edna, Tex., 100 Vol. 22, p. 925. miles southwest of Houston to visit Candy Barr, who has just been released from the Texas Penitentiary on narcotics conviction sentence. May 9, 1963.22 22421 - Ruby returns the rented car to Houston at 5:37 am___.______..______. Vol. 23, p. 74. May 10, 1963__..____- Ruby orders a .38 S & W pistol to be shipped to Lewis McWillie in Las Vol. 26, p. 499. Vegas from Ray Brantley, a Singleton Ave. gun dealer. May 12/1963: tee" ep" From the Carousel Club, Ruby made these calls: Las Vegas, Nev., 735- Vol. 25, p. 252. DOs ee From his Ewing apartment, Ruby calls: New York, N.Y., YU 2-2805, for 8 Vol. 25, p. 252. Mayild. 190d eeeeeoe Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 1 minute from his Ewing apartment. Voi. 25, p. 252. May 15, 1963_________ Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 10 minutes from his Ewing apartment. Vol. 25, p. 252 DOt te eee toe Ruby contacts Harold Tannenbaum, Old French Opera House, Bourbon CR 86, p. 486. t., New Orleans, seeking talent for a nightclub act in Dallas. May 19, 1963____.___- From the Carousel, Ruby calls: Edna, Tex., OL 7-4554, for 1 minute; Vol. 25, p. 252. Arlington, Tex., CR 5-4891, for 6 minutes. May 20 1963seeus- 2 Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891 for 6 minutes from the Carousel Club__ Vol. 25, p. 253. May 24. 1963.3 22... Ruby calls Arlington, CR 55352, for 3 minutes from the Carousel Club___. Vol. 25, p. 253. May 25, 1963________- Ruby spends the night with Tammi True at the Belair Motel in Tulsa____ Vol. 23, p. 73. May 26, 1963.07... 4. Telephone calls from Tammi True’s motel room to: Tulsa, WE 2-3510, Vol. 23, p. 73. . A. Fougley; WE 6-£945, Denise Jones, 2638 East Oklahoma; long- distance operator 135, Oklahoma City. ; Doe ee Ruby telephones Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 11 minutes from the Carousel Vol. 25, p. 253. ub. Mayi27,11963nisoas _. Ruby calls Arlington CR 5-5352 for 7 minutes from the Carousel Club____ Vol. 25, p. 253. May 28, 1963: 322%.__ Ruby sent a telegram from the Western Union office, Dallas, to the Eddie CR 380, p. 128. Kaplan Agency, 1564 Broadway, New York City, ' May 196322022. ees W. W. Litchfield, who is probably involved with drugs and/or prostitution, Vol. 14, p. 96. ; quits is Jebwith Spencer International Press at Atlanta where he has ‘ been working since February and returns to Dallas upon the death of his ; father. He takes a job in Dallas selling ‘‘Great Books.”’ June 127196322522 There is a call to Chicago, HO 5-3280, from LA 8-4775, the Vegas phone, Vol. 25, p. 255. for 13 minutes; toll, $4.70. June 28, 1963___.____. Ruby hires Mrs. Pullman, aka Mary Ray, as hostess at the Carousel Club. Vol. 15, pp. 223, 22 She works for 6 to 8 weeks, i.e., until Aug. 9 to 23. Mr. Pullman, who 228. attends an inventors show with Ruby in November 1963, is with his wife every night at the Carousel. He sees a police officer (Olsen?) with stripper Kathy Kay Coleman. a eae ee ne oe en ee Oy Date Event i Source Oe ome Dee si June 1963._--._.. Majorie Ethier (Margie Richey) starts working as a Carousel is still employed as such on Nov. waitress and Vol. 15, p. 193. Ons0. et29 O° | Larry Crafard, who had rejoined his 22, 1963. family from Dallas to family in Dallas in March, moves his Vol. 15, p. 413. Port Angeles, Wash. SPE it neo3noc Ruby calls Fort Worth, PE 8-1951, for 1 minute from his apartment on Vol. 25, p. 252. Ewing; the toll was 35¢, eee Ruby calls Fort Worth, PE 8-1951, for 10 minutes from his Ewing; the toll was $1.57, apartment on Vol. 25, p. 252. June 1, 1963_____.____ Master of ceremonies Earl Norman (aka Norman Earl Wright) tells Jack snes of a stiipper ‘“Jada”’ (Janet Conforto Vol. 14, p. 89. ) who is appearing in New tleans, June 2, 1963_...______ Tammi True is in Tulsa until June 2, MOA Joes0 There when she returns to Fort Worth_____ is a call June 4, 1963... _____ There is a call tofrom the Vegas Club phone LA atl TESS Vol. 15, p. 409. Arlington, CR £4891, for 3 minutes from RRLA Sa ae Vol. 22, p. 517. unlistec :umber in Ruby’s €-6258, an name, located at 3929 Rawlins, Eva Grant’s Vol. 25, p. 255. apartinent. DOS SL ee GY | Ruby calls Ailington, CR £-5352, June £-8, 1963... New Orleans for 12 minutes from the Carousel Club__ s‘ripper, Jada, says that Ruby drives Vol. 22,-p.'517, Harold Tannenbaum, the operator of to New Oileans, and Vol. 23, p. 49. the French Opera House, intro- duces Ruby to Jada. Daur 22225 207. pi . eyee Orleans for approximately 3 days looking for showgirls or his club, Vol. 14, p. 150. mane 6,29639. ©. oy. The Belair Motel, Tulsa, says that Tammi True checks out there since Apr. 14, 1963, after staying Vol, 23, p. 73. mone 8, 1963... Ruby sees Jada perform June 9,1963__.... There is a call to in New ONGRNS ok: 2.2) SIM San Francisco from LA &-4775, the Vegas Re aredDe | Vol. 23, p. 49. the toll was $16.10. Club phone; Vol. 22, p. 517. ‘et a Ruby calls hlington, CR S~4891, from the Carousel toll was 45¢, Club for 3 minutes; Vol. 22, p. 517. June 11,1963... Ruby calls New Orleans, 522-9468, for 3 June 12,1963... minutes from the Carousel______ Vol. 22, p. 517. There is a call to Chicago, HO £--3280, from LA &-4775, the Vegas phone, Vol. 25, p. 225. for 13 minutes; toll, $4.70. dune 13, 1963... i Calls Tageton. CR £-4321, for 7 minutes from the Carousal; the Vol. 22, ear Wie toll was $1.06, June 14,1963... ee calls ne Orleans, 522-0930, for 7 minutes from the Carousel; the Vol. 22, Dale toll was $1.45, a a Harold Tannenbaum, New Orleans, telephoned Ruby at Dallas about CR 86, p. 487. iing Jada. June 15,1963... Ruby calls Arlington; the toll was 4&¢@.- | RSsacred Ruby calls Chicago, SH 2-0984, for 12 minutes ee Vol. 22, p. 517. from the Carousel: the Vol. 22, p. 517. toll was $2.50, |) Reece eee Ruby calls Arlington, CR5-9365. PORES £> 5? | Ruby ives a telegram to New Orleans about Vol. 25, p. 252. June 16,1963... Jada’s contract._________ ee Vol. 21, Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 18 minutes p. 412, from Do Md SVL HS Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-9665, for 3 minutes from the Carousel Club____ Vol. 22, p. 517. He calls Waco Tex., SW 9-2770, for 3 minutes from the Ewing apartrsent. Vol. 25, p. 252. the Ewing apartnent. He calls Southfield, Mich., EL 6-0919, for 7 minutes apartment. from the Ewing June 17, 1963... : Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-489}, for 3 minutes from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 517. the toll was 45¢. une 19, 1963__.______ A “Lifeline” (H. L. Hunt sponsored broadcast transcrip’ t from June 19, Vol. 22, p. 501. 1963, entitled ‘‘Heroism '’) is in Ruby's car on Nov. 24, 1963, Dostl 0 05 OV Ruby calls from the Carousel Club: Arlington 4 , CR 5-489], 1 minute, 25¢; Vol. 22, p. 517. 5-4891, 1 minute, 25¢; and New Orleans, 523-0930, 4 minutes, 85¢. Dee 7! Joy. Ruby calls New Orleans, 523-0930, for 8 minutes from the ment; the toll was $1.65. Ewing apart- Vol. 22, p. 517. mune 20, 1963... ; Ruby calls Fort Worth, ED 5-1291, for 9 minutes k trom the Ewing mune 21, 1963___._____ Ruby cails New Orleans, 523-0930, for 11 minutes from apartment. Vol. 25, p. 252. the Ewing Vol. 22, p. 517. apartment. 7 29,1903... Ruby calls Houston, FA 3~-6269, for 4 minutes from the Carousel Club______ Vol. 22, p. 517. eS ae Ruby cails Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 9 minutes from Ewing; the toll was 196. Vol. 25, p. 252. . Do teke , Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 6 minutes mune 27, 1963__.______ Ruby calls Las Vegas, 735-4303, for from the Carousel Club____- Vol. 25, p. 253. 7 minutes from the Carousel ‘Pune 28, 1963... Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 7 minutes from the Carousel Club_..... Vol. 22, p. 517. UE TS 5 eae Jada begins her engagement at the Carousel Club. She says she Club... Vol. 22, p. 517, Dallas at the end of June. drove to Vol. 21, p. 412. ene 29,1963... 0. is calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 5 minutes ] ‘ trom Carousel Club; the Vol. 22, p. 517, toll was 41¢. Meyne 1963... James A, Carson, Dallas, says he sees DOR 2c) wy Jada sees Ruby at the French Opera Ruby at the Carousel Club.....____. CR 223, p. 370. House, New Orleans, exact date un- CR 105, nown, in June 1963. p. 318. me 12, 1963...2...| Ruby calis Arlington, CR 5-9365, from ; ie the Ewing apartine nt for6minutes; Vol. 22, p. 517; vol. the toll was 98¢. Ruby calls Atlineton, CR 5-4891, for 8 minutes, 3, 106d. LAAT” Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, from the Carousel Club for 8 minutes. 25, p. 252. 1 EP REA aie Ruby cails Arlington CR 5-489], from the _.. Vol. 25, p. 254. Oa eae Ruby calls Fort Worth: George Moore, Ewing apartment for 5 minutes__ Vol. 25, p. 252. Texas Consumer Finance, PE 8- Vol. 25, p. 252. 0058, for 11 minutes from the Ewing apartment. Donal oie” Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-489], for 8 minutes from the Carousel DOF AAS: Does Jack Kuby give an employee party? Fisher, an alcoholic, Club____ Vol. 25, p. 252. party in 1962 and is working for Ruby until Aug. 13, 1963, but attends a Vol. 23, p. 352. does not attend a 1963 party. Date Event Source July 6, 1$63..___..... Ruby calls New Orleans, Harold Tannenbaum’s Club 523-0930, for 12 Vol. 25, p. 254; CD minutes frem the Carousel Club. 84, p. 131. Do 2th. 6292. Bou Harold Tannenbaum calls Ruby in Dallas about employment____________ CD 86, p. 487. July 12, 1863__....... Chicago telephone, FA 8-403], is connected for Robert Barney Baker at Vol. 25, p. 292. Hogennene (Ruby called Baker several times after this phone was installed. July, 43, 1963.32 1... Ruby calls Monroe, La., FA 2-7654, for 7 minutes from the Carousel Club Vol. 25, p. 254. ik Barbara Messina. The phone belonged to Messina’s grand- ather. July 15 elsO3. tes ou Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 3 minutes from the Carousel Club__ Vol. 25, p. 254, July 16, 1963_________ Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 8 minutes from the Ewing apartment. Vol. 25, p. 252. July 1793963. 3see Jada says she started working at the Carousel Club under a 2-month con- Vol. 21, p. 412. tract calling for $300 a week. She worked under a 2-week contract from June 28, 1963, until July 13, 1963, for $275 per week. July 18, 1963_._-____- Ruby calls Biloxi, Miss., ID 5-1536, for 11 minutes from the Ewing Vol. 25, p. 252. apartment. July 21, pT ipape a Ruby calls from the Ewing apartment: Gloversville, N.Y., GL 4-3087, for CD 84, p. 114. 14 minutes. Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 21 minutes, and Arlington, CR 5-489], Vol. 25, p. 252. for 1 minute. Vol. 25, p. 254. Vol. 25, p. 252. July 23, 1863. .ce in Vol. 25, p. 254. July 24, 1963... 68 iu Vol. 24, p. 252; CD 4, p. 688; vol. 25, p. 252: CDi 84 p. 131 i CR 86, p. 487. Vol. 25, p. 255. Vol. 25, p. 254; CD 4, p. 691. CD 4, p. 691; vol. 25, p. 254: OCD 848 p. 299. Ruby ous Jackson, Miss., EL 3-7178, for 16 minutes from the Ewing apart- Vol. 25, p. 252. ment. ee Tannenbaum leaves his job at the Old French Opera House, New CD 84, p. 132. rleans. Ruby calls Fort Worth, PE 2-4729, for 4 minutes from the Ewing apartment_ Vol. 25, p. 524. Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 7 minutes from the Carousel Club_____ Vol. 25, p. 254. ene sageiga Ward, Grand Prairie, Tex., saw Ruby in Dallas in mid-July, CR 105, p. 318. DPD officers Sexuaer and Strebeck move into apartment 208, South Ewing, CD 84, pp. 632, 633; after Tammi True and another Carousel stripper move. Apartment CD 83, p. 626. anaes Glenn Davis leaves, and Joe Courthey takes his place for 2 to months. Master of ceremonies Earl Norman (a.k.a. Norman Earl Wright) works Vol. 21, p. 778. at the Carousel Club for 1 week. July to November Wanda Joyce Killam works for Ruby. Jack Carter, a friend of her hus- Vol. 26, p. 338. 1963 band’s, rcoms at 1026 North Beckley and subsequently dies. July 19632... oe dco. W. W. Litchfield, who has served 2 jail sentences and is probably involved Vol. 14, pp. 96, 99. in drug trafficking, gets fired from his job of selling at Great Books. He does not work again until January 1964, when he starts selling bowling equipment in Houston. He lived at 302 West Clarendon with his wife and mother. He lived at the Drexel House Apartments, at Henderson and Knox. He meets Mrs. Bertha Cheek through Bob Sands Electric Co. (it lights the fairgrounds). Mrs. Cheek discusses a new club with Ruby in November 1963, and her name is in Ruby's notebook near Litchfield’s name. Irene Ward and a Waco, Tex., friend, Helen [last name unknown] meat Vel. 25, p. 711; Ruby at Kip’s on Zang Ave. He allows them to use his Carousel Club CD 86, p. 188. telephone to seek jobs. Miss Ward last sees Ruby about the middle of July 1963. Ward was introduced to Ruby by Tom Reis in July 1963. Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 6 minutes from the Ewing apartment__ Vol. 25, p. 252. Ruby has hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Club Bldg., from 6 to Vol. 22, p. 913. 6:30 p.m. Joe Johnson, a black Vegas Club bandleader, says that Ruby discontinues Vol. 15, p. 220; vol. his long-time policy of Friday night shows at the Vegas. The Vegas Club 15, p. 204. drummer says that there are Friday night shows at the Vegas in November. Ruby calls from the Carousel Club; Las Vegas, 735-4303, for 6 minutes CD 4, p. 691. (Lewis McWillie, 3627 Eastern). wee ee were ee eee Ruby calls from the Ewing apartment; Los Angeles, HO 6-8211, for 1 CD 4, B.689; vol. 2¢, minute (Mike Shore, Reprise Records); Los Angeles, LO 4-4785, for 2 p. 36; vol. 22, p. minutes (CD 4, p. 689 shows this to be HO 4-4785. If it is HO, it would 513; TAG file; vol. be William Miller, 6675 Whitley Terrace, Hollywood, Calif.); Beverly 22, p. 500. Hills, CR 4-0043 for 7 minutes (Mike Shore, 109 Almont); New York City, TE 1-8877, for 4 minutes (Joey Adams, 1050 5th Ave.); North Hollywood, 766-1193, for 8 minutes (Irving Mazzei, 12231 Hosby). 1089 Date Event Source mag. 3; 19630. = 22 Adolphus Hotel's contract with Breck Wall for the musical a review “Bot- Vol. 26, p. 550, el Since Apr. 20, 1963, ends. [t begins again Septem- (ah ere Ruby cals Arlington, CR 5-5352, from the Ewing apartment for 10 Vol. 25, p. minutes. 688. Ut gd 2. de es Ruby goes to Edna, Tex., to see Candy Barr, who was released fromthe Texas Penitentiary in Aprit after serving a sentence Vol. 25, pp. 252, for conviction. Ruby had gone to see her earlier on May 8, 1963.a narcotics 253; vol. 22, p. called Edna, Tex.: May7, 1963, OL 7-4554, for 2 minutes; Ruby had 517, 1963, OL 7-4554, for 2 minutes; May 19, 1963, OL 7-4554, May 12, for 1 minute; May 31, 1963, OL 7-3025, for 3 minutes; May 31, 1963, OL 7-4554, 2 minutes; June 10, 1963, OL 7-3025, for 16 minutes. for mug? 4, 1963___.......- Alfred Lurie, Dallas, along with Ruby, boarded American Airlines flight CR 223, p. 321. 186 at 4:45 p.m. for New York City. Ruby was going to visit Barney Ross and to see a union official on business. ce eet Fae Leaded Harold Tannenbaum Calls Ruby at Dallas about employment......._____ re ee The records of the Hilton Hotel, New York City, show that Ruby checked CR 86, p. 448, CR 86, p. 488. | ee See Ruby calls Arlington from the Carousel Club, CR 5-5352, for 1 minute____. Vol. 1 ATM Ruby calls from the Ewing apartment: New York City, Cl 7-4915, for 3 Vol. 25, p. 254. minutes (Barney Ross’s office, Milton Blackstone Agency), Arlington, 25, p. 253; vol. 22, p. 505; CD 4, p. Tex., for 1 minute; Las Vegas, Nev., 735-4111 for 5 minutes (house 689, DOS see Ruby calls the Carousel Club in PAS, BL Jas oe e. ee ee Vor 23, Pil TIT espe Be aac Harold Tannenbaum calls Ruby in Dallas about employment__ ._________ CD 84, SC es Ruby calls Chicago NE 1-1489, for 34 minutes from the Ewing apartment. Vol. 25, p. 132. p. 689. He was calling Sheri Aston. mtg? Oe. 1963... Ruby sends a telegram from the Western Union Office, Dallas, to Bobby CR 360, p. 128. Faye, AGVA, New York City. , taped tal gsh Ruby has hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Club building from 6 to6:30 Vol. 22, p. 913. p.m. ‘August 1963__________ Ruby personally contacts Joseph Glaser Association Booking Corp., New CR 105. York City, on business. ‘ Re ok Ruby ats Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 24 minutes from the Ewing apart- Vol. 25, p. 253. ) ment. “Aug. Let ren Frank Fisher, an alcoholic, quits as a Carousel Club musician...._______ Vol. | Do.....__..._.._ There is a collect call from San Francisco to Breck Wall at the Adolphus Vol. 23; pode. 25, p. 272. otel. HAug. 15, 1963.._______ Ruby eet New York City, JU 2-7700, twice for 3 minutes from the Ewing Vol. 25, p. 253. apartment. | a Peds A adhe Ruby has hairtreatment at the Dallas Athletic Club Bldg., from 6 to 6:30 Vol. aN a | p.m. : ‘Aug. 18, 1963_..______ Ruby calls from the Ewing apartment: Arlington, CR 5-5352 for 8 minutes; Vol. 25, p. 253. | CR 5-4891 for 1 minute; and CR 5~4891 for 23 minutes. “Aug. 19, 1963____-____ Ruby calls Las Vegas, 735-4111, for 1 minute from the Ewing apartment___ Vol. 25, p. 253. DOs ake ecmee Titche’s department store in Dallas gets a small claims court citation fora Vol. 22, p. 501. | $12.19 bad check against Ruby. | hs oar Gea Grapevine, Tex., calls Ruby; the toll wes SU PE Oe Fl. ie ae Vol. 22, p. 517. “Aug. 20, 1963_._...__- Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 18 minutes from the Ewing apart- Vol. 22, p. 517. | ment; the toll was $1.45. ‘Aug. “an Lh datoclel WH 1-0124 (unpublished) installed for Stanton Corbat, apartment 206, CD 722, p. 45. 223 South Ewing St., on Nov. 6, 1962, and disconnected Aug. 21, 1963. tO Berd: a call from the Vegas Club, LA 8-4775, to Chicago, HO 5-3280, Vol. 25, p. 255. | or 8 minutes. WAug. 22, 1963__.--..__ Ruby calls Las Vegas, 735-4111, for 7 minutes from the Ewing apartment... Vol. 25, p. 253. Deten en oe Ruby calls Beverly Hills, CR 40043, for 7 minutes from the Ewing apart- Vol. 25, p. 253. ment. ; Aug. 24, 1963__.___... Ruby calls Chicago, HO 5-3280, for 6 minutes from the Ewing apartment.- Vol. 25, p. 253. Mug. 25, 1963_.....-_- Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 16 minutes from the Ewing apart- Vol. 25, p. 253. i ment. mug. 27, 1963_.......- is Bet Little Lynn (aka Karen Bennet Carlin) says that she starts ‘‘stripping.’’ ry Vol. 13, p. 206. | She says she began in September 1963. ; : Beg. 2EAI0S Glan. : Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 8 minutes from the Ewing apartment.- Vol. 25, p. 253. | Andee enh alter Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, twice for 1 minute from the Ewing Vol. 25, p. 253. apartment. ‘Aug. fg Lp Ruby and Eva Grant get into an argument in Ruby's car as they are taking Vol. 15, p. 281. | their sister Eileen Kaminsky from Chicago to dinner. Ruby pushes Eva | out of the car for accepting a person-to-person call which was intended | for him. ; as August 1963__-._..__- Larry Crafard starts to work for a carnival__.....-...----.--.L2.2.---- Vol. 25, p. 172. Oe DOs. -es~ pay-- J. A. Tony Boland resumes work as the bouncer at the Carousel Club Vol. 25, p. 718. until some time in September, which is the last time he sees Ruby. Tony Boland is living at Ruby's. hp 4» Aaa ah Dallas police officers Sexauer and Streback live in apartment 208, 223 CD 4, p. 625. South Ewing. UO the 8plop li Master of ceremonies Earl Norman works for Ruby for 1 week at the Vol. 21, p. 778. Carousel. He also works there for 1 week in July 1963. pellet ale George Senator, who has been living with Stanton Corbat on Maple Ave. Vol. 13, p. 233. since August, moves into eranens 206 at 223 South Ewing, before Ruby moves into apartment 207. : Dente oad«new acidic Ruby lists his Au at payroll: Jada—$300; Tammi True—$110; Joy Vol. 22, p. 507. Dale—$110; Kathy Kay—$110; Wally Weston—$200; Band—$330. The total is $1,160 per week. 1090 a Date Event Source eususumgeemnger Ruby places ads in the Dallas Morning News of a nightclub for sale____- Vol. 23, p. 117. August 1963 AES, Sra Chester A. Meyers says that Ruby tells him that business at the Carousel Vol. 23, p. 118. Club has improved within the last 6 months. Doserns. os Mrs. Bertha Cheek buys property at 5901 Hillcrest. She says that she Vol. 13, p. 384; lived at 3914 Swiss until January 1964 when she moved to Hillcrest. vol. 19, p. 55; Ruby had Mrs. Cheek’s name in his notebook, with 5901 Hillcrest, vol. 14, pp. 99-100 LA 1-2705, and her Swiss Ave. phone, TA 7-9301. Mrs. Cheek is shown in the 1963 Dallas City directory as the manager of Beachcomber Apartments, apartment 201, 5917 Gaston. Mrs. Cheek is listed in the 1963 Dallas directory at 5930 Gaston and 3914 Swiss. Mr. Sands of Sands Electric Light, who lights the fairgrounds, tells W. W. Litchfield that Mrs. Cheek is interested in investing in a lounge. W. W. Litchfield meets Mrs. Cheek on Swiss in the latter part of August or the first part of September. DOA see = Plastelite, ED 5-1266, in Fort Worth, R. Lloyd Adams, president, starts Vol. 26, p. 556. making twist boards, which Ruby becomes interested in. Doe iv ove) Tammi True (a.k.a. Nancy Powell) brings Pete Devoire, Enid, Okla., Vol. 15, p. 417. bartender, to Dallas from Oklahoma. Devoire gets on a plane to Mexico immediately. Early on the morning of Nov. 22, 1963, Devoire and 4 others go to Tammi True’s Fort Worth residence, and Tammi brings Devoire to Dallas later in the evening. They are at Mickey Ryan's apartment in Lakewood at the time of the assassination. Doz pees Stan Corbat, George Senator's roommate since August 1962, gets married__ Vol. 14, p. 178. septr 79963 ee Eileen Kaminsky visits Dallas from Aug. 19, 1963, to Sept. 1, 1963_______ CD 86, p. 488. Doar 2 ee Patsy Ann Kersten, Dallas, met and started working for Ruby at the CR 223, p. 321. Carousel Club in Dallas. | ape bs Ane teaeh ai poy nag Sexauer, Stewart, and Bateman live in Apartment 208, 223 CD 4, p. 634. outh Ewing. Doreen Pere Ruby calls Arlington, CR F-4891, for 7 minutes from the Ewing Apartment. Vol. 25,D. 203. Depts? 61963) 2 ed There is a call from the Vegas Club, LA 2-1775, to Simi, Calif., 526-4356 Vol. 29%, P2505. (Ronnie D. Magid, Eva Grant’s son), for 3 minutes. Sept 41903" wae Mrs. Harold Summers, Odessa, Tex., thinks Ruby, “Mr. !osie’’ and CD 86, pp. 252-253. others are at the Cabana Motel discussing a meeting. DO eke) heck Ruby buys a $550 cashiers check for H.H. Watson_....___._._....._____ Vol. 23, p. 140. sept 5) 19637 2-2. ratte a hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Club Bldg., from 6 to Vol. 22, p. 913. :30 p.m. DOtere + see! Montgomery, Ala., calls Ruby collect; charges are $1.75..._____.________ Vol. 22, p. 508. Sept. 6, 1963.__--____- Harold Tannenbaum traveled to Dallas where he stayed with Ruby_____- CR 86, p. 488. Dormer. nS Ruby calls from Arlington, CR £-4891, for 1 minute from the Carousel Vol. 22, p. 508. Club; the toll was 45¢. Sé@ptn/, 1963. ee ae Ruby calls Fort Worth, ED £-1291, for 6 minutes from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 508. the toll was $1.09. Septys 1963. 22. | Ruby calls Fort Worth, ED €-3265 (Dr. M. L. Glickfield), for 3 minutes Vol. 22, p. 508. from the Carousel Club; the toll was 35¢. DOr as ee 2 Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 2 minutes from the Carousel Club; Vol. 25, p. 254. the toll was 25¢. septs) 19632 22. Tessie Aline Axenfield and Helen Agnew bring Bethel Cramer, 17, from CD 4, p. 156. Bossier City, La., to Dallas to get a job as a stipper at the Carousel Club. Ruby was to get an ID for her showing 21 as her age. Dae th seen we Ruby calls Arlington, CR £-1891, for 11 minutes from the Ewing apartment_ Vol. 25, p. 253. Sept. 10-20, 1963_____ Otho D. Howard, an inmate at Seagoville Federal Prison for falsifying Vol. 26, p. 269. insurance claims, says that he sees Oswald about 1 week after an encounter at the Vegas Club. Sepisi i 1963". 22 -~ Melt aan sehr oil CR 5-4891, for 6 minutes from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 508. the toll was 49¢. DO sat. .> ee nase There is a call from the Vegas Club LA 8-4775, to Denver, 388-1249 (Mor- Vol. 25, p. 255. ris Rutland, attorney, a cousin of Ruby’s), for 11 minutes. Sept. 12,31963 <<.2.- Ruby calls Chicago, SH 3-0984 (Hyman Rubenstein, Marian Carroll, Ann Vol. 22, p. 508. Volpert), for 25 minutes from the Carousel Club; the toll was $5.10. a) aya Dr. Glickfield of Fort Worth is taken to the Carousel Club by Bert Nelson, Vol. 25, p. 710. ihe owner of a Dallas wig salon. Dr. Glickfield has several dates with 7 Jada. DOSse. ae Ruby signs a 1962 income tax return and mails it Sept. 17,1903. oa -g-- Vol. 23, p..20%) Sept. 13, 1963__._...- Robert O'Donnell, Dallas, saw and talked to Ruby during the evening, CR 223, p. 321. probably at the Carousel Club. f DO su «i.- dis att: Ruby cails Arlington, CR 54891, for 1 minute from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 508. the toll was 25¢. : Sept. 16, 1963. ___...- eat alls ATEN, CR 5-4891, for 4 minutes from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 508. the toll was 35¢. DO ge6 onthe dec Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4849, for 1 minute from the Carousel Club; Vol. 22, p. 508. the toll was 25¢. : 1 piece, Saray mf Ruby calls New York; the toll was $4.20__.-.-...-..----------2---- 8 Vol. 22, p. 508. sept. 17; 19633" 22... Jada’s contract ran from Sept. 17, 1963, to Jan. 1, 1964.._..--.------_-- Vol. 23, p. 50. DO. cht nw chase Ruby mails his income tax return, which has been prepared by Abe Vol. 23, p. 209. Kleinman, Fidelity Union Life Bldg. DO bee. ciccs stein « A ie Jada’s contract for $300 per week, from Sept. 17 to Jan. 1, Vol. 23, p. 50. ; DOsea <50¥y- saves This is the date of the Life-line radio broadcast found in Ruby’s car on Vol. 22, p. 501. Nov. 24, 1963. The broadcast was entitled, ‘‘Free Federal Money.” Sepis 19.1963 532-2 Ruby calls Eileen Kaminsky in Chicago, HO 5~3280, for 8 minutes from Vol. 25, p. 253. the Ewing apartment. J ; 4 OBDL 20, bo0se. - ere. R. Lloyd Adams, president of Plastelite, a Fort Worth firm making twist- Vol. 26, p. 557. boards, is arrested at 5300 Camp Bowie, Fort Worth, at 3:45 a.m. for disturbing the peace. 1091 a eo “. Date Event Source anne ee Carousel Club bartender Andrew Armstr strippininae ong says that Joy Dale started Weepe ng at the Carousel. Rub y lists her as Vol. 13, p. 353; vol. an employee in j August and 22, p. 507. Ruby owes the Internal Revenue Al Gruber calls Murietta, Calif., ORService 702 $39,067.84... Vol. 23, p. 315, Ruby calls Fort Worth, ED 5-1266, for 1 311, for 3 minutes: the tol wasl $1_ CD 722, p. 143. minute from the Ewing apartment. Ruby calls Fort Worth, TE 4-9484, for 6 minutes from the Carousel Club: Vol. 25, p. 556, the toll was $1.09. Vol. 22, p. 508, Are one calls from Cobo Cleaners to ; Pontiac, Mich., OL 2-8857 (G. F, ush). CE 2865, p. 1. Earl Ruby calls from Cobo Cleaners to New Baltimore, Mich., RA 50604 for 3 minutes at 11:09 a.m. CE 2865, p. 1. Plastelite, the Fort Worth manufacturer, ships Carousel Club. They are never paid for, 12 twistboards to the Vol. 23, p. 168, Ruby has hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Club Fort Worth calls Ruby; the toll was 35 cenis Bidg Vol. 22, p. 913, Vol. 22, p. 508, Vol. 25, p. 234, Vol. 26, p. 308; CE 9885, for 2 minutes. 2865, p. 1. Arlington calls Ruby; the toll was 35 cent Bruce Carlin and Karen Bennett Carlin, Fort Worth, s... Vol. 22, p. 508. call from WA 4-0113 Vol. 25, p. 264. to Ning, at Farmers Branch, CH 7-5014, for 3 minutes; Dolse, Dallas, RI 7-2842 for 3 minutes; Euless (Hi-Ho Sprinkler , 740 West Pipeline) to Hurst, 282-2162, for 3 minutes. Ero Manufacturing Co. has a disputed call charged to N.J., to New York City, for 47 minutes. them from Trenton, Vol. 25, p. 328, Ero Manufacturing Co. has a disputed call charged to them from Camden, N.J., to New York City for 3 minutes, person-to-person, Shale CR 5-4891, calls Dallas, Rl 2-4247 (the Colony Club) for 3 Vol. 25, p. 256, minutes, mm. 2/, 1963... 2. Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 4 minutes from DO, >. SSRe 3" | Ruby calls Hyman Rubenstein, his the Ewing apartment. Vol. 25, p. 237. brother, in Chicago, SH 3-0984, for 15 Vol. 25, p. 237. minutes from the Ewing apartment. | SEE TOMA RUNS SS NE weOw | eA SG Gn Fowler a ee CD 1072. GS Ree ae besa CR 5-4871 (Ralph Paul), calls Mabank, Tex., TU 7-4048, for Vol. 25, p. 256. minute. i CRE ee Bruce and Karen Bennet Carlin (Little Lynn), Fort Worth, WA 4-0113, call Vol. 15, p. 650; vol. Cameron King, Farmer’s Branch, for 3 minutes; and Dolsen, Dailas, 25, p. 264, RI 7-2842 for 3 minutes. | TE Se Former Dallas gambler Lewis McWillie in Las Vegas, 735-4303, calls: CE 3012, p. 1. Reno, 329-4332, for 3 minutes: and 329-4332, for 5 Dolss.4 25 toy _ Ruby buys a $200 cashiers check for the Dallas Power minutes. & Light Co. at the Vol. 23, p. 138. Bank of Services & Trust. Do...._______.__ Bruce and Karen Carlin’s calls were: Cameron King, Farmer’s Branch, Vol. 15, p. 650; vol. for 3 minutes; and Tom Palmer, AGVA, Dallas, FE 1-3746, Mit ae de a Ruby calls Flastelite Engineering Co., 920 Foch St., Fort for 3minutes. 25, p. 264. Worth, Tex., Vol. 22, p. 508. ED 5-1266, for 3 minutes from the Carousel Club at 4:36 p.m. A De OSE Wa IN Ta Ero Manufacturing Co. has a disputed call charged from Trenton, N.J., to Vol. 25, p. 295. New York City for 31 minutes, person-to-person. . Dorit 4.205 25 | se i pat gambler Frank Goldstein at MO 1-1184 calls Santa Monica, Vol. 25, p. 295. pt. 28, 1963..______ Eileen Kaminsky calls Earl Ruby from Chicago, to Detroit, BR 3-3000, for 3 Vol. 25, p, 234. minutes. DS a San Francisco gambler Frank Goldstein calls Morris Gambler, Santa Vol. 25, p. 295. Monica, EX 9-3984. Lh: SEs Oe Oe Adolphus Hotel signs 2 contract with Breck Wall for the musical review CE 3015. “‘Bottoms-Up,”’ until Jan. 4, 1964. “7p AE as Neiman-Marcus fires Eugene L.Lamson___-__.......... CD 205, p. 287. Do....-.. ...-.._ Ero Manufacturing Co. has a disputed call charged to them to Newark, Vol. 25, p. 328, N.J., from Trenton, N.J., station-to-station. ; Do.........._.__ Ero Manufacturing Co. has a disputed call charged to them to Elizabeth, Vol. 25, p. 331. -J., from Trenton, N.J., for 3 minutes. Do..._..-__.____ 8 persons come to Dallzs to produce a show, ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Vol. 25, pp. 325-326. Movies,’”’ on the State Fair Midway through October. Ue cee Se Deke Miles and 1 or 2 of his associates meet with Ruby at the Carousel Vol. 25, p. 317. Club for 1 or 2 hours on 4 or 5 nights before Oct. 5. These meeting are usually between midnight and 2 a.m. Dorr ee oe289, Deke Miles borrows some props for the show from Jack Ruby____.______ Vol. 23, p. 25. A ae Cae Larry Crafard comes to the State Fair Midway with a carnival. When he is Vol. 25, p. 323. fired, Deke Miles gives him a job with ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies.” UNE ee COOGEE res oe Ruby meets Crafard at ‘How Hollywood Makes Movies.’’ When the show CD 1322c, p. 2; folds, Ruby lets Crafard stay at the Carousel Club, } vol. 25, p. 172. 29,1963 2, CY... There is a call from the Vegas Club, LA 8-4775,to Simi, Calif. The ticket Vol. 25, p. 249. is missing. ; DOR rp Soto. Bruce and Karen Bennet Carlin at Fort Worth, WA 4-0113, call Dorothy Vol. 25, p. 264. Hammond, 5945 Frederick Sq., Dallas, at EM 8-4304, for 2 minutes. (fe ares ree Bruce Carlin, Fort Worth, WA 4-0113, calis Shirley Berry, 4557 Shady Hill, Vol. 25, p. 264. Dallas, FL 7-5237, for 1 minute. "Cnet CRINDshe Barney Baker, Chicago thug whom Ruby calls frequently, calls Stanley Vol. 25, p. 293. Date Event Source Sept. 30, 1963........ Ruby buys a $110 cashiers check for his synagogue and a $60 check for Vol. 23, p. 140. ASCAP at the Merchants Bank. Ddseece se Earl Ruby calls from Cobo Cleaners: C. J. Weathered, Northville, Minn., CE 2865, p. 1. Fl 9-0967 for 2 minutes; and C. J. Weathered, Northville, Minn., Fl- 9-0967, for 1 minute. Oe eee oe N. P. George Marcus, Glenview, IIl., PA 9-2359, calls Earl Ruby collect for CE 2865, p. 1 4 minutes (Marcus is Earl Ruby’s ‘‘partner’’). Do....-----.---_ Breck Wall and Joe Peterson call Tressier in Fort Worth collect from the Vol. 25, p. 272. Adolphus Hotel. Vol. 19, p. 45. CD 4, p. 638. Ewing. Parking attendant Reeves at the garage next to the Carousel Club warns CD 1254, p. 33; vol. Ruby that a Jewish man, 30, stocky, short, has come by the garage and 13, p. 254. said he was going to kill Ruby. Ruby says this man was going to ‘‘clean out’’ another club and that he would stop him. Ruby gets his gun from the trunk of his car and pistol-whips the man by the liquor store at Com- merce and Akard, An ambulance takes the man to Parkland Hospital, but later he comes back to work for Ruby. Reeves thinks the man lives in Houston. Andrew Armstrong, the Carousel Club bartender, says that 3 Arlington Vol. 13, p. 346. college students heckle Wally Weston the master of ceremonies, until Sept. 15, 1963, 1 student is a white male, 21 or 22, 5 feet 9 inches, 150/ 160 1b., dark brown/black hair, who says that both he and Wally Weston are Communists. His companions are a young man and a young lady. Weston cuts his hand when he hits the heckler, and the man is ejected. Armstrong says that it is definitely not Oswald. Jack Ruby's payroll at the Carousel for September :Jada—$300 per week; Vol. 13, p. 310. Joy Dale—$1i10; Tammi True—$110; Kathy Kay—$110; Wally Weston— $200; Band—$330; the total is $1,160. Andrew Armstrong says that Sundays are paydays____________________- Vol. 13, p. 310. Hillel Silverman, rabbi, saw Ruby at services at Temple Shearith Israel, CR 86, p. 489. Dallas, during each of the high holiday services in late September 1963. On Nov. 28, 1963, Otho D. Howard, an inmate at Seagoville Federal Prison CE 2829. for falsifying insurance claims, says that he and David Conn were at the Vegas Club between 8 and 9 when Ruby, ‘‘Oswald,’’ a man with a well- dressed Mexican women who spoke loud French or Spanish came in. The woman was Ruby’s friend. Someone (the woman?) was taking flash pictures with a Polaroid. Howard got cut in a fight, and the heavyset woman ticket taker asked him to leave. Howard got a Band- Aid at the nearby 7-11 store; went to the ‘‘Idle Hour’’ bar; went to a nearby Mexican cafe where he saw Jack Ruby, ‘‘Oswald,’’ ‘‘Eva’’ and the Mexican woman friend come in around 11 to 12. David and William Conn, 3009 Wheelock, have never been in the Vegas Vol. 26, p. 270. Club with Howard. Ruby calls Rabbi Hellel Silverman during high Jewish hely days 2 months Vol. 22, p. 906. before Nov. 22, 1963, regarding a fight with Eva Grant. Silverman says she is mad at him for dating a girl who is too young. , Detectives Riccio, R. Cisco, and E. Kalinowski, Chicago Police Department, CR 105, p. 319. visited Dallas and had dinner with Ruby at the Carousel Club in Septem- ber 1963; the exact date is unknown. Do....---.-.---- In September 1963, exact date unknown, Richard Lloyd Adams, Fort Worth, CR 105, p. 319. Tex., received a telephone call from Ruby, and Ruby personally visited his office in Fort Worth. Adams came to Dallas, met Ruby in the lobby of the Statler Hilton Hotel, and 3 weeks later visited Ruby at the Carou- sel Club, Dallas. Do....-.-.-----. James Henry Dolan, Dallas, saw Ruby at the Town & Country Restaurant, CR 105, p. 319. downtown Dallas. Do....--..------ Ruby took trichology treatment for balding from Bruce McLean from 6 to CR 105, p. 319. 6:30 on Sept. 5, 12, and 25, 1863. Do... ---.-.-.-- In late September 1963, Jerry D. Hutchinson, patrolman, vice section of CR 105, p. 319. the DPD saw Ruby at the Carousel Club while on duty. ~~ DO che —2 2b =) Jack Ruby calls Rabbi Hillel E. Silverman during high Jewish holy days Dallas Times Heralt 2 months before Nov. 22, 1963, about a fight with Eva Grant. Mar. 12, 1964 Do...._._.------ Eva Grant says that Leo Torti recalls Officer Tippit being at the Vegas Club_ Vol. 14, p. 486. Oct. Rd | ier ae eR Earl Ruby calls U.S. Post Office, Walled Lake, FU 7-2310, for 1 minute, CE 2865, p. 2. from Cobo Cleaners. t 1s apd sae cae Barbara Hemby, Dallas, saw Ruby at Dallas. She had previously worked CR 223, p. 321. for him at the Carousel Club 2 or 3 nights a week during September 1963. DO se... 4m. see Arlington, CR 5-8113 (Ralph Paul's Bull-Pen manager, Jackson), calls Vol. 25, p. 258. Blackwood, N.J., CA 7-5274, for 29 minutes. _ Dogme ase ees Ruby calls from the Ewing apartment were: Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 1 Vol. 25, p. 237. minute (Bull-Pen Drive-In); CR 5-5352, for 3 minutes (Ralph Paul); and Fort Worth, TE 4-0847, for 2 minutes (Tammi True). D0 gee ears Barbara Hemby, part-time waitress at the Carousel Club, sees Ruby for Vol. 25, p. 317. the last time when she quits. : DOeg cate Arlington, CR 5-5352 Gap Paul), calls Dallas, FL 7-2447, for 3 minutes. Vol. 25, p. 258. DO see se ee Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Sterling, IIl,, 626-3988,. for 2 minutes (Twin Vol. 25, p. 328. City Uphoistery, C. Westheimer, owner). : : Does wee ee ee Santa Monica, Calif., EX 9-3980 (Morris Goldstein, 40 Sunset Ave., Venice), Vol. 25, p. 295. hd a Atos gambler Frank Goldstein, 640 Teresita Bivd., JU i- , collect. 1093 eee Date Event Source re AG OY. Ruby tells Nathan Wyll (on the street near Baker Hotel, an CD 105, p. 320), ex-Dallas News nightclub reporter who is now in the Vol. 25, p. 317. travel busi that he is interested in a Caribbean cruise. yb! |aT ar ie ee A call from the Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co. to Ronald G. : : port, Pa 672-7138, for18 minutes, Little, McKees- CD 722 p. 84. (hs Se ormer Dallas gambler Lewis McWillieinLas Vegas, 735-4303, Peet * _ at Reno, 329-7171, for 2 minutes. calls Gi CE 3012, p. 2. Dowss.2.2 33-104 iad: Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Hazelhurst, Ga. (the Quinn residence), for Chester Brezinski, for 15 minutes. Vol. 25, p. 328. Dofiss ES AON. Arlington, CR 5-8113 (Ralph Paul’s Bull-Pen manager, Jackson), calls Vol. 25, p. 258. Blackwood, N.J., CA 7-5274 (John Biehl, 528 East Church, Blackwood, N.J.), for 4 minutes. Doe seecs A... Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Dallas, DA 4-4694 (Winnie Faye Vol. 25, p. 256. Floyd, 847 Peavy, Colony Club hostess) for 1 minute. NS ae ae A call is made from Lawrence Meyers, Chicago, to Earl L. Fox, National CD 722, p. 84. abt Calif., for 3 minutes. 1 otlpaee t A call iis made from Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co. to Claude cae hletad Mayberry, CD 722, p. 84. Hammond, Ind., for 3 minutes. Oct. 3, 1963. _________ A call is made from R. Little (Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co) to Smee, Calif., CD 722, p. 84, 248-8666, tor 7 minutes. ot éedelen lege kee Ruby first meets Marv Gardner of the Hollywood DOG: 9.55 JY. RubgAene EN IRS Spent ith Oowa Show______....... Vol. 25, p. 317. ouoneN GiuntaeT Vol. 23, p. 303. a ae = Ruby calls Aincome, Northville, Fl 9-2803, for 1 minute, from Cobo CE 2865, p. 2. eaners. ee ee eS Former Dallas gambler Lewis J. McWillie, at Las Vegas, 735-4303, calls CE 3012, p. 2; CD San Francisco, 752-3789 (Newton Wells, Jr.), for 3 minutes. 1193, p. 186; vol. LD: ol ehaeeee tee A call is made from Ch'cago Loop Auto Paint Co. to Claude 26, p. 547 547. Mayberry, CD 722, p. 84. Hammond, Ind., WE 2-6530, for 2 minutes. Dot lt .5. 25 Jol. Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Richmond, Va., for 14 minutes, station-to- Vol. 25, p. 329. station, from Chicago, 439-1026. ei Fae Barney Baker, a muscleman for James R. Hoffa, who has just released from prison in July 1963, calls Harlan, lowa, SK 5-1248 Wake Vol. 25, pp. 292-293. been Moore, 1209 13th), for 4 minutes from 728-4031, Baker’s phone. DORE 22 25joy Ero Manufacturing Co., calls Olney, Ill, EX 3-2291 (American Machine & Vol. 25, 1963, Foundry), for 4 minutes, person-to-person. OU ers cree a nee Arlington, Tex., CR 5-4891, for 1 minute from the Carousel Vol. 25, p. 241. ub. OP os Aces ote Bruce and Karen Carlin call Dolsen, Dallas, RI 7-2842, for 3 minutes from Vol. 25, p. 264. Fort Worth, WA 4-0113. OOS. SF 22oJou. Breck Wall calls Fort Worth, WA 4-9306 (Eddie Parker, Bottoms-Up revue Vol. 14, p. 612. performer), for 1 minute from the Adolphus Hotel. DOS sc rcnstone Ruby calls Shreveport, La., ME 1-3753 for 13 minutes from the Carousel Vol. 25, p. 241. Club (this phone number is the residence of Mrs Elizabeth A. Matthews). ae Earl Ruby calls from Cobo Cleaners: Commerce, Mich., EM 3~-3916, for 2 CE 2865, p. 2; vol. minutes (Raymond A. Aird); Northville, Mich., Fl 9-2400 for 5 minutes 26, p. 309. (Ford Motor Co.); Utica, Mich., 731-7628, for 1 minute (R. E. Halalek); and Utica, Mich., 731-7628, for 1 minute (R. E. Halalek), : e965; _ 28. dey. Carroll Jarnagin says that he was dating an exotic dancer named Robin Vol. 26, p. 254. Hood (Shirley Mauldin) when he overheard Oswald and Ruby talking at the Carousel Club between 10 and 11:45. Robin Hood lived at 3621 McKinney, apartment 211-B. Her mother is Edna Doran at the Elbow Lounge, 3907 Capitol, TA 3-0436. Davee 4 .ahte¥.. Ruby had a hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Bldg. from 6 to 6:30 p.m_ EES. Seng Bruce and Karen Carlin call the manager (Barney Weinstein) of the Theatre Lounge, 1326 Jackson, Dallas, Rl 2-2677, for 3 minutes, from Fort Worth, WA 4-0113. DOSS .4 £6. lev.. Arlington, CR 5-8113 (Ralph Paul’s Bull-Pen manager, Jackson), calls Blackwood, N.J., CA 7-5274 VJohn P. Biehl, 528 East Church), for 53 minutes. F DOE a .Stt. iy... Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Los Angeles, MA 8-6324 (Atias International Manufacturing), for 4 minutes. mt fs Nite DOIS.5. £80 o5 | Ann Volpert, Ruby's sister in Chicago, files for a naturalization application in Chicago. , L c D. 1963 ae ee Deke Miles of the State Fair show, ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies’, hires Larry Crafard atter Crafard was fired by another State Fair show. One night Crafard had several teeth knocked outina fight. Miles lost contact with Crafard after ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies’’ closed. AN pe ns le ae Between Oct. 5 and 15, Miles and some of the ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies’’ people went to the Carousel Club in the late evening 7 to 10 times. , Dat ae 26 tou: - Ruby visited ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies’’ 3 to 5 times for 1 to 2 hours during the day by himself. } i f 1 MER e a ea A call is made from Chicago to National City, Calif_......_.__.________- DOE roaiseierie% Mrs. Johnny Hayden sees Ruby at the Carousel Club_____.._-.....---- Dovel. 25 Jey. . Ruby gets a hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Bldg________-_.-____- Vol. 25, p. 317. Ul Seon Barney Baker calis Stanley Rosenbloom, St. Louis, PA 1-3794 for 17 Vol. 25, p. 293, minutes from Baker's home phone in Chicago. Doze c.28. Jove. Arlington, CR 5-8113 (Ralph Paul's Bull-Pen manager, Jackson), calls Vol. 25, p. 258. Blackwood, N.J., CA 75274, for 34 minutes John Biehl, 528 East Church Street). y RG rc pacar RSSNR Ero peat lh Co. calls Maplewood, N.J., PO 1-5050 (Edwin A. Beck CD 722, p. 121: Co.), for 3 minutes. vol. 25, p. 332. OE Ser eas 4 MPs otk New York City, saw and talked to Ruby at the Cabana Club, CR 360, p. 130. Dallas, on several occasions during the week beginning Oct. 16, 1963. Date Event Source Oct? 6,“19633> ee 4 - Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352, for 3 minutes at 4:35 p.m. from Eva Vol. 25, p. 248. Grant’s apartment, LA 6-6258. DO sstceov corse Mrs. Winnie Faye Floyd, 857 Peavy, Dalias, DA 4-4694, Colony Club Vol. 25, p. 258. hostess, called Ralph Paul, CR 5-5352, in Arlington, for 3 minutes. DO.282 3s oS Bruce and Karen Carlin cali Larry Bennett, Miami, OX 1-9575, for 3. Vol. 25, p. 264. minutes from Fort Worth, Tex. The Florida phone is the pay station at Cy’s Wee Wash It, 3390 East 4th St., Hialeah. Oct. 7,°19632..54- .--- Ruby buys a cashier’s check at Merchant's State Bank for the Carousel Vol. 22, p. 513, Club rent, payable to the Houston Nichols’ estate. Do weeeeteeseet Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Dallas, FE 7-2447, for 2 minutes Vol. 25, p. 259. (Billy Wright, 2026 Wilbur). DG See see Earl Ruby ca!is from Cobo Cleaners: Rockwood, Mich., DR 9-7951 (Dery! Vol. 26, p. 309; W. Leas) for 2 minutes; Utica, Mich., 731-7628 (Halatek), for 1 minute; CE 2865, p. 2. and Mount Clemons, Mich., HO 3-4854 (Frank Neuenorf), for 1 minute. Do. 322.2 220s. Ruby meets Larry Crafard at the State Fair, Texas_.____._.____________- Vol. 13, p. 417. Dose eee Joe Peterson calls New York City, 871-4921 (his mother), for 8 minutes at Vol. 25, pp. 272-275. 4:39 p.m. from the Adolphus Hotel (Peterson is Breck Wall's partner). Doles tent aes Barney Baker, Chicago, calls Hicksville, N.Y., WE 1-3178 (Pat McGee), Vol. 25, p. 293. for 15 minutes. UU ate Red See as Barney Baker calls Tom Clinton at the International Longshoremans CD 722, p. 82. Union, 265 West 14th St., New York City, WA 4-3111, for 5 minutes. Dosis. £2 et . Ruby calls Bonnie Kellough, 39 North Capitol Parkway, Montgomery, Vol. 25, pp. 241, Ala., 265-7630, for 4 minutes from the Carousei Club. 246, 254. Do sscecees. ooo: Lawrence Meyers, who sees Ruby Nov. 22-24, is in Dallas. Eva Grant Vol. 14, p. 411. says that she does not know him. Do: eer « SORy:|2 Ero Manufacturing Co. calls: Philadelphia, WA 2-3300, for 6 minutes from Vol. 25, pp. 329, 332. Elk Grove, IIl.; and Muskegon, Mich., PA 8-2325 (Baker Auto Trim), for 2 minutes. OCS 196s 0 ciue ane Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891, for 6 minutes from the Carousel Club__ Vol. 25, p. 241. Dogte_4¢. 28 de... Lawrence Meyers ts ia Datlasy_ Sunected. eo. wel yoludoctunshh we. . Vol. 25, p. 317. DO sre S5 2-335 4865: Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Wholesale Meat, 905 Fort Worth Vol. 25, p. 256. Ave., Dallas, Rl 2-5614, for 1 minute. Dozeee eee ene Bruce and Karen Carlin call Cameron King (Vicki King), CH 7-5014, Vol. 25, pp. 264, 268. Farmers Branch, for 5 minutes from Fort Worth, WA 4-0113. Do: S251. 2s. Joy. Ero Manfacturing Co. calls: McDonald Gibson (Tri-State Wholesale, Inc.) Vol. 25, p. 330. for 3 minutes from Dallas; and Sherwood Smith, McKinney, Tex., L 2-5574, for 7 minutes from Dallas, 748-8161 (Cabana Motel). DOlse ten eee Earl Ruby calls from Cobo Cleaners: Northville, Mich., Fl ¢-2806 (Arthur CE 2865, p. 2. A. Durfee) for 1 minute; and Mount Clemons, Mich., HO 304-850 (Herbert Russell), for 1 minute. Oct. 9.19632 F2_ey- Ero Manufacturing Co. calls: Crystal Lake, Ill., 45°-1751, for 3 minutes Vol. 25, pp. 330, 332. (this call was to Lawrence Meyers’ former employer, William Heiman, Jr.); Philadelphia, WA 2-3300 (Henry Weiter), for 7 minutes from Fond du Lac, Wis., 921-9882; St. Louis, GA 1-5900 (Harold Katz, Famous Barr Sporting Goods) for 4 minutes from Dallas; and Kansas City, Mo., WE 1-4333, Gateway Sporting Goods. Doster es see American Aislines says there was no flight 985 on Oct. 9, 1963 (in 1963, Vol. 25, p. 262. Oct. 9 was a Wednesday). 6225.8. Ai ¥ - Arlington, CR £~5352 (Ralph Paul), calls Winnie Faye Floyd, 847 Peavy Vol. 25, pp. 258-259. Rd., Dallas, DA 4-4694, for 3 minutes. ; Doses eee ese Arlington, CR £-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Winnie Faye Floyd for 10 minutes_ Vol. 25, p. 256. i DOSES: See wees? Bruce and Karen Carlin call the manager of Connors Food Store, Highway Vol. 25, p. 265. i 84, McGregor, Tex., for 7 minutes from Fort Worth, Tex. Dofit 8 oy Le ane Baker calls Mrs. Rule, secretary, Los Angeles, OL £-7988, for Vol. 25, p. 293. minutes. Do Se ee A en made from Lawrence Meyers, Chicago, to Earl Fox, National City, CD 722, p. 98. alif. Doles 0.62 298.2 Rudy tells State Fair show ‘“‘How Hollywood Makes Movies’’ producer, Vol. 23, p. 26. Robert Craven, that a Chicagoan is in the Carousel Club who is a real swinger (probably meaning Lawrence Meyers). Dots 22s 908 A cali is made from Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co. to Smee at Earl Scheib, Vol. 772, p. 83. Los Angeles, for 4 minutes. Dorel 4 patter A call is made from Chicago Luop Paint Co. to R. G. Little, McKeesport, Pa., CD 722, p. 84. for 19 minutes. Oct. 1001963 222.402-- Karen Bennet Carlin calls Bruce Carlin, Fort Worth, JE 4-5901, for 7 Vol. 25, p. 265. minutes at 11:20 p.m. from Dallas, RI 1-0447, the Hickory House Barbe- aue, 217 South Akard DO see rete te ds ta calls Fort Worth, WA 4-9306, for 1 minute from the Adolphus Vol. 25, p. 273. otel. DOteee tee es R. Little, Chicago ri Auto Painting Co., calls Maizur in Queens, Earl CD 722, p. 83. Scheib Co., TW 4-1996, for 7 minutes. Dows8 Ket: Ruby calls photographer Rhodes at Sulphur Springs, 885-4323, about Vol. 25, pp. 711, 71 2 months before Dec, 10 about taking some pictures of new acts. Rhodes sells these pictures, many of them risque, featuring Ruby entertainers, to Life after Nov. 22 Dos: 4 ues ay Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Highland Park, Ill., 1D 2-6639, for 3 minutes Vol. 25, p. 330. from Brigin, Mo. Dp ee Ruby has a hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Club from 6 to 6:30 p.m._ Vol. 22, p. 913. Dots 28. 22 38 Morris Goldstein, Santa Monica, 399-3980, calls San Francisco gambler Vol. 25, p. 295. Frank Goldstein collect at night. LD Sapa ieee aeap Lawrence Meyers meets Carousel stripper Joyce Lee McDonald at the Vol. 23, p. 85. Carousel Club. He tells her that he has business interests in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Las Vegas. 1095 Date Event naive Source A CK ee 4 to 6 weeks before the assassination, plastics manufacturer to a Pago Ruby introduces a Fort W LOS | es Earl Ruby calls from Cobo Cleaners:Club operator during the aterncae Mrs. Patrick Oxford, House Motor wi A Motel, Chicago, for 4minutes and Lansing, Mich., John A. Normington CE 2865 p. 3 . ' for minutes, Heh ie. Oa» Uhaes Sal gla Ck ah 7 ea awrence be montMeyers oft). visite € State Fair on Nov.v. 1 11 (which j could possibly i Vol. 25, p. 319, (eae My 2) os el ro Manufacturing Co. calls Hazelhurst, Ga., “ER econcoine Ero Manufacturing Co., Anderson, at 782-8921FR (Be-Mac 5-2551, for 6 minutes___ Vol. 25 Abevar Wisnewski, Milwaukee Board Transport) calls Vol. 25" ‘ 396) 2 ° for5 pres att p.m. of School Directors, GR 6-3670 2 Dae eee Udy meets Larry Crafard in Dallas...) Oct. 12, 1963 Ruby distributes "CarouCarousel sel Club Club cards cards in theTexascOklanoms in the Texas-Oklahoma Uvercie University Vol. 25 pp.ong336, 317. Vol. 25, nt, a member of the defunct Sovereign Dov ls 44ee Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Dallas, WH 1-5601 (Ruby’s Ewing St. apartment), for 2 minutes at Vol. 25, p. 256, a 3 p.m. Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352 (Ralph Paul), for from Ewing. : 8 minutes at 6:42 p.m. Vol. 25, p. 238, | OE ET A personal call is made to Earl Ruby, Cobo Cleaners, Detroit, Doree 28 eer Former Dallas gambler, Lewis J. McWillie, at Las for 5 minutes- CD 722, p. 128, Gibbs, Reno, 329-7171, for 2 minutes at noon. Vegas, 735-4303, calls Vol. 26, p. 547; CE Do-Dee ee uy is at the Century Room in the Adolphus Hotel 3012, p. 2 4. with M. P. Doyle from Vol. 25,, Pp. pp. 317, 337. 010p.m. i Re Sete Eva Grant calls her son, R. D. Magid, in Simi, Calif., 526-4356, for 6 minutes Vol. 25, pp. 225, 336. from the Vegas Club, DO. ese Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Dallas, FE 9-9945 (Gerald Weaver, Vol. 25, pp. 256, 259. 131 Mount Hood, delivery man for American Produce which served the Bull-Pen), for 1 minute, Do fa eee big fanutacturing Co. calls Crystal Lake, IIl., 459-4120 , for 3 minutes at Vol. 25, p. 332. 238 p.m. | En pF ow Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Raleigh, N.C., TE 3-3036 (Grimes for2 minutes. Supply Co.), Vol. 25, p. 332, met, 13, 1963... _=.._. "5 nel made by Lawrence Meyers, Chicago, to Carl Fox, National City, CD 722, p. 98. alif. DOPos eee Karen Carlin calls 0. L. Autry, 2265 Evans, Fort Worth, WA 4-1423, for 3 ge pp. 265, 268, minutes at 10:34 p.m. from the pay phone at the Theatre DOs. Ero Manufacturing Co. disputes < charge for a call from Lounge. Easton, Pa., to Vol. 25, pp. 331, 336. Lake Forest, IIl., for 33 minutes. pOct. 14,1963...__ Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Jack Ruby at the Ewing apart- Vol. 25, p. 256. ment, WH 1-5601, for 2 minutes. Dosen 28a... Eileen Kaminsky, Ruby’s sister, calls Los Angeles, AN 9-3433, for 22 Vol. 25, p. 234, minutes from Chicago. DOs. ieecdew.., State Fair show, “‘How Hollywood Makes Movies,’’ Do...._.-.__..._ Karen Carlin calls Dolsen in Dallas, RI 7-2842, closes after this night. Vol. 25, pp. 318, 326. for 4 minutes from Fort Vol. 25, p. 265. Worth, WA 4-0113., Do...._____._.__ Bruce and Karen B, Carlin call Ken Azlin, Weatherf ord, Tex., LY 4-4375, Vol. 25, p. 265, for 3 minutes at 2:27 p.m. VS See Ero Manufacturing Co. disputes the charge for a call to Newark, N.J., for 3 minutes from Easton, Pa. Vol. 25, pp. 331, 336. Lh Se : ee Ero Manufacturing Co. disputes the charge for a call to Philadel ’ phia for Vol. 25, pp. 331, 336. 12 minutes from Easton, Pa. . HEof C a ee Barney Baker calls Tom Clinton at the Plaza Hotel, New York, PL 9-3000 CD 722, p. 82. for 4 minutes. : Le ie ee Barney Baker calls Walter Stine for 3 minutes at CO 7-1212, New York City (New York Journal American, 220 South St., New York CD 722, p. 82. at ) 9:25 p.m. 1 LE eee « Barney Baker calls for 3 minutes at Plaza Hotel, PL 9-3000 (pos- CD 722, p. 82. sibly Tom Clinton again). : ete 1553963208 Ruby goes to see Dr. Jacobson and sees Bonnie H. Bell, Dr. Jacobson’s Vol. 25, p. 317. nurse, as well as the doctor. ‘ DG Fee tice Ero Manufacturing Co. calls BeMac Transport, 1860 Seminary, 782-8921, Vol. 25, p. 331. for 3 minutes from Rockford, {II., 962-7747. Lh i ae Wanda Minx is the hostess at the Spa's open house, 3883 Turtle Creek Vol. 25, pp. 317, 338. Blvd., and sees Jack Ruby, whom she knows. DORM cna ccue Jessie Slay, a friend of Dewey Groom, produces a rock and roll show to Vol. 13, p. 327; vol. take over the State Fair show spot of ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies. D0 Peds es This rock and roll show closes on Oct. 18, 1963, 2 days before the State Fair closes. Larry Crafard, who has been with the ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies,’’ joins the rock and roll show. tI SOT ore Dewey Groom operates the Longhorn Ranch, which is the successor club Vol. 25, p. 326. to Ruby's Bob Wilis Ranchhouse. ; AO eet —ee Ag Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-5352 (Ralph Paul), for 1 minute from the Carou- Vol. 25, pp. 241, 254. sel Club. [to ~ Beh pe SE Ruby gives a Carousel Club pass to Sheraton-Dallas Hotel doorman Willie e. Vol. 23, p. 95; CD 223, Barker. Ruby gave him the pass at the hotel. Peace ee A call is made from the Chicago Loop Paint Co. to Pat Catalano, Teamsters CD 722, p. 84. Union, MA 1-5555, Cleveland. J Oe OO A call is made from the Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co., to Smee, at Earl CD 722, p. 83. Scheib, Los Angeles, AN 8-8666, for 6 minutes. ie DODR DPD officers Sexauer, Bateman, and Stewart live in apartment 208, 223 CD 4, pp. 616, 634. South Ewing, from Sept. 1 to Oct. 15. 1096 Event Source Earl Ruby moves to 29925 Woodland Dr., Southfield, Mich., 353-2730__ _ - CD 84, p. 230. A call is made to Ronald G. Little, McKeesport, Pa., 672-7734, from the CD 722, p. 85. Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co., for 9 minutes. A ay made by Lawrence Meyers, Chicago, to Earl Fox, National City, CD 722, p. 98. alif. Ruby calls Sam Tannenbaum, 911 Meredian, Miami Beach, at Miami, Vol. 25, pp. 241, 254, JE 8-4082, for 13 minutes from the Carousel Club. Ruby goes to the Cabana Motel to see Jewel Brown perform on several Vol. 25, pp. 318, 331. occasions. She had danced at the Sovereign Club in 1960. In August 1963, Ruby had proposed that booking agent Glazier let him handie Jewel Brown. Ruby calls Carme (Petrillo) or Paul (Salos) at Houston, CA 2-1900, for Vol. 25, pp. 241, 254. 3 minutes from the Carousel Club. Ruby’s sister, Eileen Kaminsky, in Chicago calls Los Angeles, WE 6-2287 Vol. 25, p. 234. (Lee Halison), for 12 minutes. Bruce and Karen Carlin rent a garage apartment at 3809 Meadowbrook Vol. 25, p. 270. Dr., Forth Worth, and live there until Jan. 4, 1964. On Mar. 9, 1964, they live at 2937 Meadowbrook, Fort Worth. Stuart in Omaha, at 342-9288 (Jr-Bar pay phone), calls Peterson (Breck Vol. 25, p. 273. Wall's partner) collect at the Adoiphus Motel, Dallas, for 5 minutes. Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Gibson, Jarvey’s Motel, Pagosa Springs, Voi. 25, p. 328. Colo., for 1 minute from Santa Fe, N. Mex. Larry Crafard gets into a fight between midnight Tuesday and 2 a.m. Vol. 25, pp. 318, 326. Wednesday with ‘‘Bull’’ who had worked with Crafard at the Memphis Fair. Crafard gets some teeth knocked out, and the police are called. (Members of the ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies’’ show know about this fight, but say they know nothing about Crafard after ‘‘How Holly- wood Makes Movies”’ closed on Oct. 14, 1963.) __..... Earl Ruby calls Rothenmer, Pontiac, Mich., FE 2-7284, for 2 minutes from Vol. 26, p. 303; CE Cobo Cleaners. 865, p. 3. Earl Ruby calls Polk Bros., Inc., Sal Polk, president, Chicago NA 2-5600, Vol. 26, p. 303; CE for 5 minutes from his home. 2865, p. 3. Combo consisting of John Anderson (trumpet), Bill Willis (drums), and CE 2831. William Simmons (piano) starts at the Carousel Club. They play from 9 until 1 except on Saturdays, when the hours are extended until 2 a.m. Willis and Simmons live at 2530 West 5th St., Irving, which is across the CE 2831. street from Mrs. Michael Paine’s home at 2515 West 5th. -: Ruby calls D. Asher, Merry-Go-Round, Louisville, 367-6300, for 4 minutes Vol. 25, pp. 242, 254. . at 2:10 a.m. from the Carousel Club. Ruby calls Wayne Keller (DeMar’s booking agent), St. Louis, CE 1-7766 Vol. 25, pp. 238, 253. for 11 minutes. A call is made from Chicago Loop Auto Paint Co. at 2:41 p.m. for 8 minutes. CD 722, p. 92. Detective Mote, at Dallas City Hall, RI 8-9711, calls Karen Bennett Carlin, Vol. 25, p. 265. Fort Worth, WA 4-0113, collect. Ruby ran an ad for ‘‘Little Egypt,’’ even though she was not performing Vol. 25, pp. 318, 339, at the Carousel Club. Charles Curtis, Little Egypt's manager, accom- 340. panied by Mr. and Mrs. Glen , the maitre d’ hotel of the Gay Life where Little Egypt is performing, go to the Carousel Club between Oct. 19 and 27 to complain to Ruby. Ruby calls: 11:58 to 12:01, Atlanta, JA 4-1069 (Domino Club), from the CD 4, p. 692; CD 84, Carousel Club; 12:10 to 12:13 a.m., Nashville, AL 6-0981 (Shomer, p. 226; vol. 25, pp. Rainbow Room) from the Carousel Club; 3:53 to 4:25 a.m., Beverly 238, 253, 254. Hills, OL 2-3349, from the Ewing apartment; 12:09 to 12:11 p.m., Fort Worth, PE 7-5553 (Walker), from the Ewing apartment; 12:42 to 12:49 p.m., St. Louis, CE 1-4552 (Mike Reiff), from the Ewing apartment; 7:39 to 7:42 p.m., Fort Worth, PE 7-5553 (Walker), from the Ewing apartment; 11:10 to 11:19 p.m., Sal Vincent, Houston, CA 5-1781, from the Carousel Club; and 11:58 to 11:59 p.m., Fort Worth, PE 7-5553 (Walker), from the Carousel Club, about ‘‘abortion for girl’’? Ds ee ath ye Earl Ruby calls from Cobo Cleaners: Pontiac, Mich., FE 2-4840 (Ed Vol. 26, p. 309; CE Pompeian), for 1 minute; Walled Lake, Mich., MA 4~4292 (Rev. Ellis 2865. p. 3. Hart), for 2 minutes; Walled Lake, Mich., MA 4-4290 (Rev. Ellis Hart), for 1minute; and Utica, Mich., 731-9546 (lan R. Oley) for 1 minute. 20 onde oe Larry Crafard was building a cloakroom at the Carousel Club, possibly Vol. 13, p. 497. using the lumber from the defunct State Fair show, ‘‘How Hollywood Makes Movies.”’ minutes. Dos 2.2 tee esc A call is made from Lawrence Meyers to Earl Fox, National City, Calif__- CD 722, p. 98. Ruby calls from the Ewing apartment: Fort Worth, PE 7-5553 (Walker), Vol. 25, pp. 238, 253; for 3 minutes; he repeats the call for 7 minutes. CD 4, p. 689. Larry Crafard says that Ruby usually came to the club between noon and Vol. 13, p. 497. 3 p.m. and stayed a short time, Sometimes, he would return to the clubin the afternoon. Jack usually called the club about 10 p.m. and stayed until 1:30 a.m. on weekdays, 2 a.m. on weekends. Ruby calls Arlington, CR £-4891 (Ralph Paul), for 10 minutes at 7:46 p.m. Vol. 25, p. 238. from the Ewing apartment. Ruby immediately calls Fort Worth, PE 7-5553 (Walker), for 3 minutes CD°722,'p. 11: from the Ewing apartment at 7.57 p.m. Ruby called Walker twice at this number on Saturday the 19th. Date Event Source Oct. 214496350 54, Joe Peterson, Breck Wall’s partner, i : See calls Judeline, n Da Nicholson, for 5 minutes. Hen CEB wn Es Sale. ro Manufacturing Co. calls Waukegan, Mass. AMORAESOONOUER Vol. 25, 92273. x. : tae for mats ate Internat ional Associati a Sill tien inca dees ro Manufacturing Co. calls ilip Sheik, Weiser’s aad Pes bes Ill, 962-4411 for 5 minutes at 4:17 De artment Stor p.m. es Ferrel, 7a Nob fob 83 Be pS «atau pel San Francisco gambler , Frank Goldstei (Morris Goldstein), for 3 minutes at n, cails Santa Monica, EX °- 7:45 a.m. LDU) Spee lab Ruby calls R. T. Brown and talks with Brown's 1 EX £3980 Vol. 25, p. 295. regarding the possible purchas secretary, Ruby Swenson, Vol. 22 p. 927 DGS aaer..,--... e of property at 2417 Maple for Bruce Carlinat Kennedale, CR 2-559], a club. ' ice calls Mrs. Martin, Hill & Martin Bordrving. 252-5191, for 3 minutes. Vol. 25, p. 265 The call is charged to Fort Worth D@rt..o. ; 3% Jot. Bruce and Karen Carlin call Dolsen at 2-2577, for 3 minutes at 8:10 p.m. the Theatre Loun e in Dall Dorgiizeau. e | Buby pees the DPD about the : ys Wile ea best location for a safe in the Carousel ub. Vol. 25, p. 318. DOR Fence eess Earl Ruby calls Troy Plating Works, Chicago, CH 2~5560, for 11 minutes... vol 26, p. 310; CE Dieetae eee R. Dose McKeesport, Pa., 672-7734, 865, p.4. calls collect to Chicago Auto Loop CD Tpa7d. A 86. Dom Jaee The ‘‘Rex,”’ a suspected CIA boat, is involved in a Cuban attackicuenr hati asd oats of a : ,”’ by Newman ct. 2 , 1963_.._.____ Jack Ruby and his decorator go with Robert pp. 8°-90. possible new club at 2417 Maple. Brown to look at a site for a Vol. 22, p. 927. Ue. Ruby has hair treatment at the Dallas Athletic Bldg. from 6 to 6:30 p.m. Vol. 22, p. 913; D0 3 Aor en San Francisco gambler, Frank Goldstein, calls: Santa Monica, EX 9-3980 Vol.CD2590: 105, p. 320. (Morris Goldstein), for 3 minutes; and EX 96, 3-0148 (Dr. C. F. Row) for 3 minutes. There is also a collect call from Beverly Hills, 657-9248 (pay station, Mount Sinai Hospital), for 3 minutes, Monica, 394-3980, for 3 minutes, and one from Santa Oct 2i19e3. Larry Crafard met Ruby at the State Fairgro undsin the afternoonin regard CD 86, p. 489. to business property in Dallas, Och 2au49Ga. 2 Realtor Alexander shows Ruby the property at Dost 5 cee he Arlington, CR 5-489] (Ralph Paul), calls Dallas,2417 Mapl@zibeti.0) ) Vol. 23, p. 97. Reserve, 9638 Hines), for 2 minutes, FL 7-8160 (U.S. Army Vol. 25, p. 256. te) ae ee Ruby calls Jack Pagan, Paran-Lewis Motors, 924 North Water, Corpus Vol. 25, p. 242. Christi, TU 4-406], Oct. 23, 1963._.______ Bruce Ray Carlin has for 3 minutes at 11:10 a.m. from the Carousel Club. telephone JE 4-8525 (unpublished nected at 3809 Meadowbrook, Fort Worth. His previous number) con- Vol. 25, pp. 240, 909 East Harvey, address was 264; CD 722, Oct. 23-25, 1963______ Anthony J. Besase WA 4-0113. and 2 other Toledo underworld people visit y p. 54. Licavoli in Detroit; Besase tells Licavoli the numbers racket Pete CD 87, $602, p. 1. would be closed down for the rest of the Kennedy in Detroit Oct. 23, 1963..._______ Thomas at the Chicago Loop administration. Auto Paint Co. calls Smee, Dura Mask, Los CD 722, Angeles, AD 2-4337 at 2:52 p.m. for 2 minutes. p. 86. oe Deiat ap a A call is made from the Chicago Loop Auto Paint Queens, TW 4-1996, for 7 minutes. Co. to Earl Scheib, CD 722, p. 92. 65 gL eal ath ze yd calls from Cobo Cleaners: Pontiac, Mich., FE 2-5385 (Frank), Vol. or 3 minutes. 26, p. 310. Obra.. 2 2c._._. . ‘Feo Manufacturing Co, calls Chicago, 935-534 8 (Lawrence Meyers resi- Vol. 25, p. 330; CD dence), for 5 minutes from Huron, S. Dak. ’ 00... ier 3A San Francisco gambler, Frank Goldstei _ 722, pp. 97-101. n, calls: Santa Monica, 399-3980 Vol. 25, p. (Morris Goldstein) for 1 minute. There is also a collect call from 295, Monica, 399-3980. Santa 0s Roeaedeae bad, Wal Ruby goes to see AGVA : ; official Tom Palmer in an attempt to break his contract with Jada, which is to run until Vol. 15, p. 211. Li eta 3. l lala Jada does not work on this night because Jan. 1, 1964. she is sick. Dr. Hesser treats her Vol. 23, p. 50. for a col¢ at her hotel. : Ct 20; 1908222 A call is made from the Chicago Loop Auto Paint : Co. to Ronald Little, Mc- CD 722, p. 92. Keesport, Pa., 672-7734, for 17 minutes, : Js oe 2 9 teaseia Raymond Franklin Krystini ‘ k and his wife, accompanied by Michael go co an ACLU meeting which began at 8 p.m, approximately. TherePaine, they CD 6, p. 190. were introduced to Lee Harvey Oswald by Paine. The meeting lasted hours. Krystinik is Catholic, and he gets into a heated discussion with2 Oswald after the meeting. Oswald Says that Krystinik is a ‘petty cap- italist’’ because he employs 2 or 3 mento help make birdhouses. Mr. and Mrs, Krystinik have been married for 10 years and during this time have never gone to any nightclub. They do not drink or smoke. Leaving Oswald on the SMU campus, Mr. and Mrs, Krystinik go to the Carousel Club where they see, but do not speak to, Ruby and watch the floor show. ; : : Dees 4 £0bt. Ruby is introduced to Robert Franklin (aka Bobby O'Dowd) of Chicago at Vol. 25, p. 341. 2 near the Adolphus Hotel. Franklin is with J. D. Turner on the street, 1 Ege een Joe A. Helm talks to Ruby at the Mercantile National Bank.......______ Vol. 25, p. 318, Dott 14-33. 207_- Ruby buys cashiers checks for $390 and $1,071 payable to the State Vol. 23, p. 140. reasurer CREM Rpiene By Gloria Fillmon, 5207 Gaston, answers a Dallas Morning News ad for a cock- Vol. 25, p. 356. tail girl at the Carousel Club about 3 weeks before Nov. 16. She goes to the club and is hired as ‘‘Gloria Rettig. 1098 Date Event Source Oct. 2551963_ce.c2!. . Jada returns to work after missing i night. Ruby gets angry during her Vol. 25, p. 332. ac. and wurns the lights off on her. Doves cfofo eee 2. Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Miss Elsa Hecker, room 696, Michael Reese Vol. 25, p. 332. Hospital, Chicago, 22&-5533, for 6 minutes from Huron, S. Dak. Doles <4 22.208_. Ero Manufacturing Co. calls Lake Forest, IIl., for 6 minutes from Miami, Vol. 25, p. 336. Fla. Ero disputes this call. Dower oe Srlington, ss 5—4891 (Ralph Paul), calls Dallas, FL 7-8146 (Coca-Cola), Vol. 25, p. 256. or 1 minute. Oct. 26, 1963..._____-_ Ruby's car, a 2-door Oldsmobile with 1963 Texas license PD 768, received CR 105, p. 321. traffic ticket 734946 in the 1500 block of Commerce St., Dallas, Tex. Do aes tot = + =. Ruby calls Arlington, CR 5-4891 (Ralph Paul), for 2 minutes at 10:02 p.m. Vol. 25, p. 242. from the Carousel Club. DO-#60 2 Ruby calls Mike Shore, Los Angeles, BR 2-9836, for 3 minutes at 10:17 Vol. 25, p. 242. p.m. from the Carousel Club. Do.....________. Breck Wall (a.k.a. Billy Ray Wilson) calls Peterson, Malakoff, Tex., Vol. 25, p. 273. HU 9-3111, for 5 minutes from the Adolphus Hotel. Do...._-_-___-__ W. G. Serur sees Ruby and Jada at the Carousel Club..__------_--_---- Vol. 25, p. 481. Dee et ae Jada works at the Carousel Club. She tells Ruby that she wants off on Vol. 23, p. 50. Oct. 27 and 28. Jack gets angry. Do....---------- Ruby calls Irwin S, Weiner, 7345 Damen, Chicago, SH 3-6865, for 12 Vol. 25, p. 242. minutes from the Carousel Club. Oct. 30, 1963..._.____ Harold Tannenbaum, New Orleans, La., calls Ruby in Dallas about CR 86, p. 490. employment. Do...._-.__-____ Bob Green, Dallas, saw Ruby at the office of the Dallas Morning News, CR 86, p. 490. putting an ad in the paper. Oct. 29, 1963...______ Ruby sent a telegram from the Western Union Office, Dallas, to Dr. and CR 360, p. 129. Mrs. Coleman Jacobson, in care of Mrs. Oscar Newman, 12 72d St., New York City. October 1963.________ Leonard E. Jez, patrolman, DPD, saw huby at the Carousel Club___-____- CR 36C, p. 130. Do_.._--_-_.____ Glenn W. Byrd, Dallas, Tex., saw Ruby at the Dallas County Clerk’s office CR 360, p. 130. in October 1963. Do...._-________ Erich Kaminski, DPD, saw Ruby at the Special Services Bureau of the CR 360, p. 130. DPD in late October, early November 1963. Dose eae James Troy Ivey, Dallas, saw Ruby sometime during the day at the Dallas CR 223, p. 323. County Sheriff's office. He saw him again 2 weeks later. LR oS PERE SS1 case Akerman, Dallas, saw Ruby at Rack Supplies, Inc., Dallas, during CR 223, p. 323. the daytime. DOS. ceca ses pipoe saw and talked to Ruby at the Texas Products Show, Mart Bldg., CR 223, p. 323. allas. Doses 2.23202 Ed Benedict, Dallas, saw and talked to Ruby at the Texas Products show, Cx 223, p. 232. Market Hall, Dallas. Dote-$o £3. 408. Karen Bennett Carlin and Liza Summers, amateur strippers at the Colony Vol. !3, p. 214. Club, walk to the Greyhound bus station between shows. Ruby, another man and a redheaded woman drive past the girls in a Cadillac. Ruby throws a Carousel Club card on the sidewalk by the girls. About 2 weeks later, Little Lynn (Karen Carlin) starts working at the Carousel Club. Little Lynn starts working after Wally Weston quits as master of cere- monies, which is possibly Sept. 15. Larry Crafard, who moves into the Carousel Club on Oct. 20, says that Little Lynn starts about 2 to 7 days after Jada leaves on Oct. 30. 1. Wie lee ed Fes A Alfred Davidson meets Ruby while promoting a radio show in Dallas. Vol. 23, p. 343. Ruby ‘‘entertains’’ Davidson until he teaves on Nov. 15. DOr ee ek eee DPD officer Harry Olsen, who is dating Carousel stripper Kathy Kay Voi. 14, p. 627; Coleman, gets a divorce from his wife. His wife remarries Dec. 9, 1964. vol. 2, p. 915; Olsen and Kathy Kay marry Jan. 10, 1964. vol. 3, p. 858. Doles 22 523-227. Nancy Perrin Rich, who worked for Ruby during the summer of 1961, is CE 3058. issued a fake identification card during October 1963 by the Oakland police to assist them in gathering evidence. The name used is Julie Ann Cody, 167 Harder Rd., Haywood, Calif. DG eae Aho Mrs. Rich mentions an attorney who lives at 3614 Charming Laneon Dec. 4, CE 2059; vol. 26, 1963. The attorney is Victorson. Victorson interviewed Mrs, Rich when p. 617. she was arrested for vagrancy and described her as an habitual liar. She knew Ruby had a friendship with McWillie. OF RS Ral Coreg Club bartender Andrew Armstrong says Ruby bought a safe in Vol. 13, p. 310. ctober. DOW ae 8 ae Larry Crafard, who worked for Ruby between October and November of Vol. 25, p. 173. 1963, said that Andrew Armstrong told him that he had worked for Ruby for 9 years, j.e., from 1954 until 1963. Don 2ac. eee Breck Wall calls ‘‘Bottoms-Up’’ performer Eddie Parker in Fort Worth, Vol. 14, p. 612. WA 4-9306, for 1 minute from the Adolphus Hotel. Dose Rae see Ruby drives his sister, Eva Grant, by 2417 Maple at 3 a.m. to look at the Vol. 14, p. 457. outside of the property that Jack is interested in buying for a new club. Nov), 3900.00 ccckaed Larry Crafard starts working for Ruby_...........------- U Sane |.-- Vol. 25, p. 318, DORA see Glazier’s direct phone number is on the list that was left at the Graphics Vol, 23, p. 57. Studio in Dallas on Nov. 1 or Nov, 4, 1963. Doite 02 207 =. On Nov. 1 or Nov. 4, a list of names is left at the Graphics Studio by Vol. 23, p. 57. Larry Crafard unintentionally while he is ordering or picking up some printing. This list has many misspellings typical of Oswald’s spelling. Gimpel’s and Segel’s names are on the list. Nov. 1-4, 1963_______- Tammi True says that Ruby is living with Tommy (during Nov. 1-7, 1963)._ Vol. 15, p. 228. NOVAS 1903-25 ce Sal Vincent (a.k.a. Salvadore Vincent Giambone) works as a comedian at Vol. 22, p. 927. the Carousel Club. Raye ae aaa Source NOY. S, 1963. pis) ce a eee gon | Edward Rocco, Holl him every night pth i Bata 7nights athe ous and thereafter saw Nov. 619632. 22;on . Walter Ervin CR 360, p. 129. ii. jtoes (Buddy) Heard, EI Paso, Tex., received eae : a phone call from Sruplowment. Ruby was in Dallas. CR 360, p. 129 a fy SIND S28. nee egramWichita, from hy the Western Uni nied Sats Casa Mia Motel, i nion office, 2 Dallas, to Bill deMar, CR 360, p. 129, 0, L90Se. Aean | arry Crafard said that Ru y bough t about this date Nov. 3, 1963__.______ asafe Edward Fien, Dallas. saw Ruby at room 302, Lacy Bidg Vol foe liaise: St.,Dallas, sometime during the day 1521 Cammnnuc 0.13, p. 435. BY LURE aa93-w wasstance telephone Bakerweda epee Be ane in Dallas, Tex, vines ee Boy ak eepmnarce CR 360 ee GUND lone| CR 360, 128, NOW4S, T9630. akc. sped " § appt National Business and Secretarial Service $15 by check for its Vol. 23, p. 63. Nov, 1391963..201.25. an William 2 duringEdward Howard theaternoo , visited with Ruby y at at the t Stork GClub, Dallas, CR 105, D. 3212 OV. 14963. 251 on uby telephoned Rose Sandra Renfroe, Dallas, about em DOVv.16, 1963521 .~. |. Smokey Turner, Minneapolis, Minn., received loyment___. 0 4 call from Ruby, Dallas, about employme a ngdieae. telephone. ck toe nt. 5 Th Nov. 18,1963. Sam Milne Saw ear Nov... 19, 29630 20: a Ruby took hair and talked to Ruby at Cliff Sanitary Grocery, Dallas. treatment from Bruce McLean, __ CR 105, p. 322 Dallas, from 6 to 6:30___.._ CR 105; p. 322. Do.....-......_. pt obpadl regio Terrell, Tex., saw Ruby at the Carousel Club CR 360, p. 130. Mev.-20,1 i 903...6..... .Pete White, curing sometime Dallas, tHe'dey, saw and talked to Ruby y at the court cour house, Dallas, CR 360, p. 130, O2SE - Fal or. nthony George Rizzo, Dallas, saw and talked a poss 20 and early on the morning of Nov. to Rub late on the night CR 36 21, 1963, at the vodeel os eae ub. Nov. 2171963. 25; 23. At about 11 a.m., Max Rubberg, Dallas, saw and talked to Ruby atthe AAA CR 360, p. 130. Do ~------------- Be ph Bar bea Ruby with Ralphph PaulPaulat ; ’ Dallas, for 45 minutes beginning at the the Egyptian ian LLounge, CR 360 ,p. 130. DassOM enA). Mrs. Norman E. Lewis, Dallas, saw about 9:45 or 10 pam. ; ani: Ruby sometime during the dayina CR 360, p. 130. car at the expressway and Main St. and a few minutes later at Munger and Live Oak Sts., Dallas. |) es Between noon and 2:30 p.m., John Newman received a call from Ruby CR 105, p. 322. at the Dallas Morning News about ads for Ruby’s |) Oe tenia Ruby had a steak during the evening at the Egyptian clubs in Dallas. Restaurant, Dallas, CR 105, p. 322. and was seen by Joe Campisi. eS | Oe ee seen at the Carousel Club at night by Joyce Lee allas. McDonald, CR 105, p. 322. ee ee From 10 to 11 p.m., Jean Aase, Chicago, and Lawrence at the Carousel Club and later, about midnight, saw Meyers saw Ruby CR 105, p. 322. Ruby at the Ca- bana Motor Hotel, Dallas. At the Cabana Motel, Ruby was seen by Edward Meyers, Brooklyn, N.Y. Nov, 22;9963.255 25... Tammi True (a.k.a. Nancy Monnell Powell), a Carousel Club stripper who Vol. 15, p. 408, was living in Fort Worth with her g andmother on Nov. 22, 1963, into 223 Ewing at the same time Ruby does, but not moves into the same apartment. ‘ Dostt £201. 23.. Eva Grant says that Ruby mentions the Branch Office Club around 10 p.m, Vol. 15, p. 344, Pee 22, 1963. The Branch Office Club is located on Industrial adiz. near OS eke eal aw Armstrong says that Alice Alexander was a waitress at the Carousel Club Vol. 13, p. 358. in May 1962 who would always quitafter fighting with Ruby. She had been employed at the Carousel for over 2 months on Nov. 22, 1963, She sometimes was a cocktail girl i.e., she sold cigarettes. Armstrong was questioned if Alice Alexander was Gloria Fillmore or Grace Fillmore. Armstrong says that she lives in Grand Praiiie. DotvLO erysoleJack Ruby had beaten up ‘‘Winnie’”’ (last name unknown), a Colony Club Vol. 22, p. 921, hostess, a few months before Nov. 22, 1963. Dot 201 AD. Mary Lawrence, Dallas, saw Ruby at Lucas B & B Restaurant, 3520 Oak CR 360, p. 131. Lawn St., Dallas, at 2:15 or 2:30 a.m. Dol de0 00! A From noon until about 12:25 p.m., Don J. Campbell, Dallas, saw Ruby at CR the Dallas Morning News Bldg., and talked with him. 105, p. 323. DAL AW RD... Seth Kantor, Washington, D.C., saw and talked to Ruby at Parkland Hos- CR 360, p. 131. pital, Dallas, at about 1:28 or 2 p.m. . i aaa ee During early afternoon, Billie A. Ray saw Ruby at the Dallas Morning News Bldg. at the time a boy ran into the office and announced that the CR 105, p. 323, President had been assassinated. ; Dose) Bentte Donald B. Safran, Dallas, talked to Ruby by telephone 3 times between CR 360, p. 131. 2:30 p.m. and 3:15 p.m. DAT Leb... From about 12:30 to 1 p.m., Georgia Mayor saw Ruby at the Dallas ing News Bldg. Morn- CR 105, p. 323. 1 eae Sh j Dave L. Miller, Dallas, talked to Ruby for a minute or so at about p.m. at Miller's place of employment, the Enquire Shine and Press 5:30 CR 360, p. 131. Shop, 1322 Commerce St., Dallas. Defeased_3 From about 12:40 to 1:30 p.m., John Newman saw Ruby at the Dallas CR 105, p. 323. Morning News Bldg. During this time, he and Ruby received the an- ee nouncement that the President had been shot. Detective Roy Standifier, DPD, saw Ruby in the 3d-floor hallway of the CR DPD building during the night. 360, p. 131. 1100 Date Event Source At about 12:40 p.m., Richard L. Saunders saw Ruby in an office on the 2d CR 105, p. 323. floor of the Dallas Morning News. Dofsi 8. 24h Se - At about 1:28 p.m., Seth Kantor, Washington, D.C., an acquaintance of CR 105, p. 323. Ruby, saw and talked to him at Parkland Hospital, Dallas. This was a few minutes prior to the time the official announcement of the Presi- dent’s death was made by a White House press representative. Doth 4. f0Y_. David L. Johnson, Justice of the Peace, Precinct 2, Dallas, saw and talked CR 360, p. 131. to Ruby at a press conference at the DPD building during the late night of Nov. 22, 1963, and the early morning of Nov. 23, 1963. Dossiee: Pe Bek During the afternoon, shied 4 . Golowacki, Dallas, saw Ruby at the Ritz CR 105, p. 324. Delicatessen, downtown Dallas. DOtdasoecez exes Between 4 and 4:30 p.m. Ferdinand Kaufman, Dallas, saw and talked to CR 105, p. 324. Ruby on the 3d floor of the DPD building. Dol eect ccseeness During the night, Ruby telephoned Cecil Hamlin, Dallas____...-...----- CR 105, p. 324. Dols. 3. FRAP - At7 and 9 p.m., Ruby telephoned Clifford L. Wright, Dallas Morning News, CR 105, p. 324. regarding changes in ads for Ruby’s clubs in Dallas. Doi s3 25.22.88 . During the night, ke Pappas, New York City, saw Rubyin the basementof CR 105, p. 324. the DPD building. OG? tamer wa dacs At wae us ).m., Jeremiah O'Leary saw Ruby in the show-up room of the CR 105, p. 324. uilding. Dobeoa cess During the night, Samuel Mack Pate, Dallas, saw Ruby at the assembly CR 105, p. 324. room of the DPD building. DG) Fa nite ns During the late night of Nov. 22, 1963, and early morning of Nov. 23, 1963, CR 105, p. 325. Jerry Lee Kunkel saw Ruby at the show-up room and later on the 3d floor of the DPD building. Nov, 23)s1 903.0 oeSat. At about 4 a.m., Roy A. Pryor, Dallas, saw Ruby in the composing room of CR 105, p. 325. the Dallas Times Herald Bldg., and talked with him about ads for closing Ruby's clubs. i Doret oe. Bet. At about 4 a.m., Arthur Weatherwax, Dallas, saw Ruby in the composing CR 105, p. 325. room of the Dallas Times Herald Bldg. and talked to him. Dovel 8s Yee - Arnold Clyde Gaydosh, Dallas, saw and talked to Ruby on the 3d floor of CR 360, p. 132. the Dallas Times Herald Bldg. at about 3:45 or 4 a.m. Dottistusse te! < Louis Meeks, Dallas, saw Ruby and 2 other men in Webb’s Waffle Shop, CR 360, p. 132. Dallas, from about 4:45 a.m. until about 6 a.m. Doe< 88s eeie bares Doyle Stokes, Dallas, saw Ruby drive his car out of the driveway along side CR 360, p. 132. 213 South Ewing, Dallas, between 1 and 1:30 p.m. DOve seated acne ss Dave L. Miller, Dallas, saw Ruby stop in the Enquire Shine and PressShop, CR 360, p. 132. 1322 Commerce St., Dallas, at about 5:30 p.m. Ne Le be ass Harrap During the day, time unknown, Abraham Kleinman, Dallas, sawand talked CR 105, p. 325. to Ruby at Sol’s Turf Bar, Dallas. Dols ye Poke sevet ae Between 1 and 2 p.m., Frank Bellocchio, Dallas, saw and talked to Ruby at CR 105, p. 325. Sol's Turf Bar, Dallas. Domest eres ced Robert Larkin, Dallas, saw Ruby at the corner of Browder and Commerce CR 360, p. 132. Sts., Dallas, at about 5:50 p.m. and talked to him for 5 to 10 minutes. Yalan ehaes At about 1:15 p.m., Speedy Johnson saw Ruby at Sol’s Turf Bar, Dallas... CR 105, p. 325. Dome 4.6) .465. . About 1:30 p.m., Elmer Ray Solomon saw Ruby at Sol’s Turf Bar, Dallas__ CR 105, p. 325. re ii ndenclan oi During the afternoon, Tom Apple met Ruby at Sol’s Turf Bar, Dallas. _-- LO AO Oe MOT og. At about 3 p.m., Wesley Arthur Wise saw Ruby in the vicinity of the Texas CR 105, p. 326. School Book Depository at the KRLD-TV unit. ? 207. Doret 2.54 Sometime during the day, Frederick Rheinstein, Sherman Oaks, Calif., CR 105, p. 326. saw Ruby several times at the DPD. : DOetence seven ye Sometime during the day, Frank Bernard Johnston, Austin, Tex., saw CR 105, p. 326. Ruby on the 3d floor of the DPD. : Ode orc cisceues ee ts. the afternoon, Francois Pelou, New York City, saw Ruby CR 105, p. 326. at the g Oe ee ee es Sometime during the day, Charles W. Brown, detective, DPD, saw Ruby CR 105, p. 326. get on the elevator of the DPD building at the 2d floor and go to the asement. Doise $2202... Sometime during the night, Thayer Waldo, Fort Worth, Tex., saw Ruby CR 105, p. 326. on the 3d floor of the DPD. Dots 4 ee Between 9 and 10 p.m., John P. Mandell, Dallas, saw Ruby near the Hall CR 105, p. 326. Diner, downtown Dallas. Dost 4 eit Lt About 10:30 p.m., Ruby telephoned Lawrence Meyers at the Cabana CR 105, p. 327. Hotel, Dallas, and discussed the assassination of Kennedy. , Dobe. sive. - Thomas J. McKenna, Galveston, Tex., was present when Billy Ray Wilson CR 360, p. 133. of Dallas received a long-distance phone call from Ruby at his (Mc- Kenna’s) telephone in Galveston, Tex. The telephone is SO 3-8022. After Nov. 24, 1963, the IRS checks Earl Ruby’s records with him, and he CE 2968. is oo evasive about a telegram to Havana ‘‘Telegram—l don’t re- member.”’ AA SRE! ee Karen Bennett Carlin, Fort Worth, Tex., JE 4-8525, telephoned Ruby at CR 105, p. 327. Dallas, WH 1-5601, at 10:10 a.m.. ending at 10:21 a.m. 4ae In February 1962, Andrew Armsirorig began working at the Carousel Club, Vol. 13, pp. 307-308. 0 eea, and he was still working there on Nov. 24, 1963. Earl Ruby is located in Detroit_.... .....----------------------------- Doc. 8, Secret Serv- Nov..29,19632.2225<52 ice. Nov. 2719635=2_ #2 When interviewed about Ruby on Nov. 27, 1963, Weiner refuses to furnish CD 84, p. 229. any information. reer FBI (Phoenix) find a Ruby connection with the Vegas Club__-...-..----- Doc. 8, Secret Serv- Pee ee. ice. 0/M HQ—Inf. Bu. Narcotics possible involvement in narcotics case Doc. 8, Secret Serv- ice. Sh a es ee Pate iy 7Se ee ee ‘gen or pee ee ee eee SourceBet eeeS I3 el, ih GES OS a Nov.30,1963... FBi (San Antonio) possible contact Ev Pe CD e84, p. ’ 169. 0 Sinks: Mrs. Joe Bonds (Ruth E., a.k.a. Dale Belmont) son Nov. 30, 1963: She and Dee 281 963,22) |Sit (San Antonio) allegation—d together at the Carousel Club.enied that Ruby and Oswald had been seen Doc. 8, Secret DOE Meee actee FBI ber ahrcog review the Service. corporate charter of S & R, Inc. (Earl Ruby is a director). Do. D&C 3) IS6S Ts FBI (San Antonio) notes that Charles T. Mitchell with Ruby and has furnished background , Jr. is on friendly terms Do. Daim Sets 2h 4 FBI (San Antonio) obtained informa information. tion that Ruby was a member of a Do. hunting party on ranch of Buck Shear, Nov. DOR Laft a a H Houston witness 16, 1963; it was discoun identifies J. Ruby as having been in Houston ted. ov. 21, ; on Do. DO. Wr a er pu FBI (Oklahoma City) notes that John G. Monohan provided information that Oswald and Ruby had been seen together Do Dets4419632,..5123%,_ M/R (Los Angeles in an unidentified restaur ) Harry Hall (Terminal Island Federal Reforma ant inmate) furnishes background information on tory Do 1 ae A eal M/R Ferd Kaufman reports on convers Ruby. Dee.*5, 19638) ations with Ruby on Nov. 22, 1963__ Do. ws ee M/R (Dallas) Ruby is reported to be Dol fii a Communist sympathizer__________ Do. eh fi) 0/M Detroit from Dallas—Eva Grant (Ruby’s sister) provides information Do. about postographs of Kennedy’s wounds. Dac 63 1963.7 i443. M/R (Dallas) Investigation discloses Ruby was in Dass ber’ oa Ruby is interviewed about possible involvement Dallas on Nov. 21, 1963__ Do. in a narcotics case ; Eva Do. Grant is also interviewed. DO. Jada on Eari Ruby interviewed about photographs showing Dery, J9G8ch Kennedy head wounds_ Do. M/R (Dallas) Interview with George Senator (roommate activities and personality. ) about Ruby’s Do. Dee 3, 19634... Fe apie? No evidence ‘ that Ruby and Oswald associated at the Dallas Do. Dec. 12, 1963____..___ $3,169 seized from Ruby by the Dec."7451963) #37: IRS__..--.. Do. M/R (Houston) Information was received that Ruby was at the State’s Do. istrict attorney office, Dallas, Ose, 16/1963, 7 '.*+ M/R (Oklahoma City) Inf. was 3 p.m., Nov, 21. interviewed about Ruby’s status as a Do. Communist—no information of value was obtained. Dec. 18, 1963... ___ M/R—Habeus corpus writ for Ruby, Dec.19,:1963) sea | M/R WFO—Earl Ruby was alleged Nov. 2419632 VIT 248d Ae. Do. to have come to Washington, D.C., Do, heavily armed. a. Dec. 20, 1963__....___ State (cable}—Allegation that Ruby : DOG ZL GIG te, ! M/R (Dallas). Whereabouts of J. Ruby may have visited Panama and Colombia. Do. between 3 and 4p.m., Nov. 21_______ Do. Deg. 27, 19632... ta State (cable)—Unable to confirm Dec, 30,1963...__ M/R (Houston) Ruby determined Ruby visit to Colombia- ____ LE. DUBITIG to have been in Dallas, mid-afternoon, Do. Do. Nov. 21. December 1963.______ Robert Larkin is managing the club, Montmartre, July 1964 Ne AI Jack 206 Browder___.______ Vol. 25, p. 289. Howard (a.k.a. Israel Horowitz), operator of Show Time, which has CE 315}. pe ener Been een ee eee ee St fie Fe hocal jy. ho, Shiels 1 Hoover letter does not state Flynn was the agent who asked Ruby to be an informant. of the Dallas office on Mar. 11, 1959, because of his job as a nightclub operator. Ruby was contacted by an agent element. He expressed willingness to furnish information. He was contacted on Apr.He28,might have information on criminal Oct. 2, 1959. He furnished no information and further contacts were discontinued. June 5, 18, July 7, 21, Aug. 6, 31, (1367) November 22-24, 1963. Fray, NoveMBER 22, 1963 1. Ruby says he awoke at about 9 :30 a.m. (12/21) a 2. “I believe I got downtown there at 10:30 or 11 a.m. that morning. 5 H 183 3. Ruby says he went to the offices of the Dallas Morning News and talked to two women there; he may have given them a bottle of food supplement. Ruby says this happened at about 10 00 a.m. (12/21) _ 4. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he went to Tony Zoppi’s office, but Zoppi was not there, so he looked over a brochure about Bill deMar. (12/21) (6) At 11a.m. Ruby “went to Tony Zoppi’s office to pick up Weimar (sic) brochure.” (RN) 1102 (c) “So I went down there Friday morning to Tony Zoppi’s office, and they said he went to New Orleans for a couple of days. I picked up the brochure ... And I took the brochure and then went into the main room where we compose our ads... And I remained there for awhile. I started to write the copy of my ad.” (5 H 183) 5. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he went to John Newman’s office, and a Mr. Connors came in, and they talked for awhile. (12/21) (6) At 11:10 a.m., Ruby “talked to salesman about the owner of the Castaway Club.” (RN) (c) “Now I go back to the same fellow that wanted me to come over to the club when we were having dinner on Mockingbird at the Egyp- tian Lounge. I came to the desk and I wanted to apologize and explain why I didn’t accept his invitation last night. I wanted to explain, and that took about 20 or 25 minutes.” (5 H 183) (Connors spoke to Ruby Thursday night when he and Ralph Paul were having dinner at the Egyptian.) 6. (2) Ruby tells the FBI, Newman came in the office, and Ruby com- pleted his ads. (12/21) (6) At 12 noon, Ruby “saw John Newman at the News talked to him for a few minutes.” (RN) (c) “Well, John Newman comes in, and evidently he took it for granted I finished my ad.” (5 H 184) 7. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that people began running around, and somebody said Governor Connally had been shot, then a Secret Serv- ice agent, and then President Kennedy. (12/21) | (6) “Then I saw different people running back and forth, and went to watch the television set, and then heard the tragic news.” (RN) (c) “I think it was 12 or 15 minutes after 12, I don’t recall what, but John Newman said someone had been shot.” (5 H 184) 8. At 12:30 p.m., President Kennedy is shot. 9. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he called Eva Grant, told her about the shooting, and said he would be at her house as soon as he could. (12/21) (6) “I called Eva at home and she was hysterical. John was stand- ing nearby and knew Eva was crying so put receiver to John’s ear.” (c) “I called my sister at home. She was carried away terribly bad. And John Newman happened to be there.” (5 H 185) 10. (a) “TI called Chicago, spoke to Eileen.” (RN) (Eileen refers to Mrs. Eileen Kaminsky, Ruby’s sister.) (Note: Ruby is probably confusing the times, as phone records show calls to Chicago later in the afternoon. This statement does not show up in the other Ruby narratives, either.) 11. (a) “Then I called Andy at the club and told him I would be there in a little while.” (RN) (6) “T could have called my colored boy, Andy, down at the club. I could have—I don’t know who else I would have called, but I could have, because it is so long now since my mind is very much warped now.” (5 H185) (Andy is Andrew Armstrong.) (c) Armstrong places this call at about 12:45 p.m. (CE 2275) a — 12. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he left the Morning News and drove to the Carousel. (12/21) (6) “[I] left the News and drove back to the club.” (RN) 1108 (ce) “T left the room. I may building and I went dow have left out a few things n ... I left the ing...and I went to the clu and [I got my car, and I couldn’ stop cry- b.” (5 H 185) (d) Ruby was seen at. the FBI files, serial 658, p. 150) club at approximately 1:3 0 p.m. (Ruby (Note: Seth Kantor claims at about 1:30 p.m. [CR 360, tha t he saw Ruby at Parkland p. Hospital claims she saw Ruby at Par 131 ; Who Was Jack Ruby.] Wilma Tui 2290) Ruby consistently den kland at approximately 1:30 p.m. (CE ies (¢) Armstrong places this atthis, [12/21;5 H 207 ; 14 H563]) about 1:45 or 1:50 p.m. (CE 2275) Larry was there also.” (RN) (Larry is Larry Crafard.) (ec) “TI told Andy, I said, ‘Cal l everyone and tell them we are not 14. (a) “We have a little girl ~ Sure he called her.” (5 H 185) in Fort Worth. I wanted to mak Carlin (Little Lynn). (Ru by is referring to Karen Bennette b) | 15. (a) “And a fellow by the name know if we were open.” (5 H 185 of Bill called and wanted to 16. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that he Kathy Kay. (12/21) remembers getting a call from (6) “And Kathy Kay called, and I said, (Kathy Kay is Kay Coleman, a Caro ‘Definitely not.’ ” (5 H 185) usel dancer. ) ; 17. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he called was going to close the clubs. (12/21) Ralph Paul and told him he (6) “[T] phone Ralph Paul.” (RN) (c) “And I called Ralph Paul, that owns ‘Jack, being as everyone else is open’—becaus the Bull Pen. He said, for money—and I said, ‘No, Ralph, I e he knows I was pressed that is why, that is the way it’s got to be.’ can’t open.’ He said, ‘OK, if ” (5 (2) A 3-minute call was made from the H 185) Carousel to the Bull Pen at 1:51 p.m. (PR) 18. (a2) Ruby tells the FBI he calleda frien told him that Neiman-Marcus had closed. d, Alice Nichols, and she (12/21) (6) “[T] called Alice at her office and left RI 2-6189 for her to call back.” (RN) (c) “So in the meantime, I had gone with Alice time, and I called her on the phone, but she wasn’t Nichols for some number on the pay phone for her to return the call, there, but I left the want to keep the business phone tied up. And I because I didn’t hadn’t spoken to her In maybe 9 months or a year. I don’t know what I said to her, not many words, but just what happened.” (5 H 185) (d) See Nichols deposition, (JFK Document 009041). 19. (a) An 8-minute call was iinaes the Carous sky number in Chicago at 2:05 p.m. el to the Kamin- oh (a) Ruby ‘ailsthe FBI he called Al Gruber and told would him he send a dog to him soon, and started crying when he talked the assassination. (12/ 21) about 1104 (5) “[{I] called Al Gruber in California and apologized for not sending dog, and started to cry and had to hang up.” (RN | (c) “E still remained around the club there * * * I think I made a long-distance call to California * * * He said, ‘Yes, we are Just watch- ing on television.’ And I couldn’t carry on more conversation. I said, ‘Al, Ehave to hang up.’ ” (5 H 185-186) (dz) A 3-minute call was made from the Carousel to the Gruber number at 2:37 p.m. (PR) 21. (a) A call was made from the Carousel to Paul’s home number at 2:43 p.m. (PR) 22. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he called Eileen Kaminsky, locating her at his sister Marion Carroll’s house. (12/21; 5 H 186) (6) A 38-minute call was made from the Carousel to the Carroll number in Chicago, time unknown. (PR 23. (@) Armstrong states that Ruby called Dr. Coleman Jacobson from the Carousel, (JFK Document 004465). (0) Billy Joe Willis says he talked to Ruby sometime during the afternoon. (CE 2414) 24. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that he called Eva Grant several times during the afternoon. (12/21) (6) “Then I kept calling my sister Eva, because she wanted me to come be with her * * * And I kept calling her back. ‘I will be there.’ And so on. But I never did get there until a couple of hours later.” (5 H 186) 25. (@) Ruby tells the FBI he called Breck Wall in Galveston. (Note: A long-distance call to Galveston doesn’t show up in the phone records. Ruby may be confusing calls on Friday and Saturday. 26. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he called Joe Peterson. (12/21) (Note: Ruby may be confusing calls on Friday and Saturday. 27. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that somebody brought some merchan- dise to the club, and Ruby told him to take it back. (12/21) (6) “Delivery boy from Gibson’s came by and I paid for some rec- ords and also gave him some cards to take back with him.” (RN) (c) “Then a fellow came over to deliver some merchandise I had ordered over the phone, or Andy ordered. And we said, ‘What is the use of purchasing any merchandise of any kind, we are not interested in business.’ And I don’t recall what I said, but I told him whatever money he received, to keep the change. I am not a philanthropist, but nothing bothered me at the time. I wasn’t interested in anything.” (5 H 186) 28. (a2) Ruby tells the FBI he left the Carousel sometime late that afternoon. (12/21) (6) “T finally left the club.” (5 H 186) (c) Joy Dale saw Ruby crying at the Carousel at 3 p.m. (Alex- ander n.b. at p. 84) (d) Larry Crafard says Ruby left the club at about 3:30 pan. (CE 2950), (e) Armstrong stated that Ruby either left the club at 4 p.m. or left at 2:30 p.m. and returned to the club at 4 p.m. Lege 29. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that after he heard of the assassination, he placed signs on the doors of both his clubs to say they were closed. - (11/25) 1105 30. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that some the Carousel and went to the Rity Delitime late that. afternoon he left cate (6) At 2:30 p.m., “[I] went to Ritz Delicssen. (12/21) few to take to Eve (foodstuff ).” (RN) atessen and bought quite a (c) “I went over to the Ritz Delicatessen Must have bought out the store, for about $10a block and a half away. worth of delicacies and so on.” (5 H 186) 31. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that after he bought the food, he went to Eva’s home. (12/21) (6) “[I] arrived at Eve’s house.” (RN) (c) “[I] went out to my sister’s and stayed at her apartment.” (5 H 186 (dz) Eva Grant stated that Ruby was at her apart until 7:15 (Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 166), ment from 5:30 but changed this later to 4:30 until 7:15. (14 H 433) 32. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that Armstrong called -with a message, and he spoke to Don Safran three him at Eva’s times concerning the closing of the clubs. (12/21) (6) “[I] received a call from Andy to call Don Don and he asked me if we were going to close... Safran, I called I called Don back immediately and told him we were going to close Frida day and Sunday... then I called back again and y and Satur- spoke to Mr. Porter and told him to tell Don that I wish he wouldn’t tell the what I was going to do. That let them decide for themse other clubs or not they should close.” (RN) lves whether (c) “Oh yes, I called Andy. This Andy Armstrong called said, ‘Don Safran wants you to call him. » (5 H 186; Ruby me and with narrative of three calls. ) continued (7) Safran says he got the three Ruby calls between 2:30 and 3:15 p.m. (CE 2273) 33. (a) “T called the Morning News twice and the compos and had them to change my ad.” (RN) ing room, (6) “Then I called the Morning News and I wanted to definit make sure to change a copy of my ad to ‘Closed Friday, Saturd ely ay, and Sunday,’ something to that effect. And it was a little late in the after- noon, but he said, ‘we will try to get the copy in.’” (5 H 186) 34. (a) “I called Dr. Jacobson about going to the synagogue and asked what time services would be.” (RN) (0) “T called Coleman Jacobson and asked him what time services are tonight and he said he didn’t know.” (5 H 187) (c) Dr. Jacobson said Ruby called him at approximately 4 or 5 p.m. (CE 2242) (Ruby tells the FBI that he made this call from his apart- ment (12/21), rather than from Eva’s apartment. ) 89. (a) “Also I called the synagogue to inquire the time of the services.” (RN (6) “And I called the Congregation Shearith Israel and asked the girl, and she said, ‘Regular services at 8,’ ” (5 H 187) 36. (a) “T lie down and take a nap. I wake about 7 or 7:30.” (okt 87 37. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he left Eva’s apartment at about 7 and drove to his apartment to get dressed for synagogue. (12/21)or (6) At 7:30, “Then had gone home to dress and go to the services.” (RN) 1106 (c) “And about 7:30 I went to my apartment. I don't know if I went downtown to the club. I know I went to my apartment—either to the club or to the apartment.” (5 H 187) (d) Eva Grant stated that Ruby left her apartment at 7:15 (see +31), and that he went to Dealey Plaza after leaving her apartment, was there for a while, and did not get to his apartment until much later. (14 H 483) 38. (a) Ruby is seen on the third floor of Dallas police headquarters at approximately 4 or 4:30 p.m. (CR 105, p. 824; CE 2255) (6) Ruby is seen at 1322 Commerce (shoeshine stand) at 5:30 p.m. (Alex. n.b. at p. 313) (c) Ruby is seen at the DPD headquarters by John Rutledge (DMN) before 6 p.m. (CE 2249, p. 14) (2) Ruby is seen at the DPD between 5:30 and 7:30 p.m. (CE 2954) 39. (a) Ruby is seen at police headquarters at approximately 6:30 p.m. by Detective Eberhardt. (Ruby denies this.) (14 H 553 ) 40. (a) Ruby called Clifford Wright at the Morning News at 7 p.m. (CR 105, p. 324; CE 2262) 41. “And I changed, showered and shaved, and think I drove—and as I drove down, there is a certain Thornton Freeway, and J saw the Ne were still open going full blast, a couple of clubs there.” (5 H 187) 49. (a) A 3-minute call was made by Ralph Paul to the Carousel at 7:19 p.m. (PR) Andy Armstrong was not at the Carousel at that time. (13 H 335) (6) At about 7:30 p.m., Ruby either called Crafard at the club or stopped in personally. (CE 2250) 43, At 8:30 p.m., synagogue services began. 44. (a) Ruby made a call during the evening to Cecil Hamlin. (CR 105, p. 324) 45. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that he had to give Little Lynn $5 some- time on Friday night. (12/21) This was accomplished with the help of peer e lot attendant. N.B. Attendant says this occurred Saturday night. (b) Synagogue services ended at 9:50 p.m. (CE 2281) 46. (a) A 3-minute call was made from Ruby’s apartment to the Bull Pen at 8:48 p.m. (PR) 47. At 9 p.m., Ruby again called Clifford Wright (CR 105, p. 324; CE 2262) 48. A 7-minute call was made from Ruby’s apartment to the Carroll number in Chicago at 9:02 p.m. (PR) 49. (a2) Ruby tells the FBI he went to the synagogue for prayer and heard Rabbi Silverman say that this tragic event should make us all better people. (11/25) (b) Ruby tells the FBI he arrived at the synagogue at about 10 or 10:30 p.m. (12/21) (c) “[I] stayed for services and said greetings to Rabbi and talked about Eve.” At 9:30 p.m., “Then went into reception room and had some refreshments and said hello Joe Coleman, and Elaine.” (RN) (d) “Anyway, I went out to the synagogue and I went through the line and I spoke to Rabbi Silverman, and I thanked him for going to visit my sister at the thospital...Then he had a confirmation—this — 1107 is the night prior to the confirmation. They serve little delicacies, So In spite of the fact of the mood I was in, I strolled into the place, and I think I had a little glass of punch, Nothing punch they serve there. I didn’t speak to intoxicating, just a little ue Bry Jack,’ and I wasn’t in a conve anyone. One girl, Leona, rsational mood whatsoever.”: (¢) Eva Grant stated that Ruby did not get the services were almost over (probably about to the synagogue until 10 00. (a@) Ruby tells the FBI he went to a deli p.m.). (14 H 433 ) and had sandwiches made. (11/25) (0) Ruby tells the FBI that after services, he drove downtown, passing by the Club Bali Hai (open) and Gay Life Club (closed), and hee ie to Phil’s Delicatessen and talked to the owner, Phil Miller. 12/21 (c) At 11:15 p.m., “From there went to Phil’s Delicatessen counterman to make up sandwiches.” (RN) and told (d) “I left the club—I left the Synagogue and I drove by the Bali- Hai Restaurant. I noticed they were open. I took recognition of that. I drove by another club called the Gay Nineties and they were closed . . . I stopped at the delicatessen called Phil’s on Oak Lawn Avenue and suddenly I decided—I told the clerk there I wanted him to make some real good sandwiches, about 10 or 12, and he had already started on the sandwiches and I got on the phone.” (5 H 187) (¢) The counterman phones Ruby at about 10 p.m. (Alexander n.b. p. 208 (i)F Be customers are at the deli place when Ruby was there earlier (e.g. 8:30 or 9 p.m.) (CE 2277-2279) 51. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that he called Detective Sims at the Homicide and Robbery Bureau of the DPD and offered sandwiches. Sims told Ruby they had all eaten already. (11/25 es (6) Ruby tells the FBI he called Sims at Homicide to offer sand- wiches and was told that they were winding things up and did not need the food. (12/21) in (c) “[I] called Sims of Homicide, if he wanted sandwiches, and he said they were winding everything up, and was going to tell the boys about my thoughts for them.” (RN) (2) “T called an officer by the name of Sims and I said, ‘Sims, I hear you guys are working’ and so on. I said, ‘I want to bring some sand- wiches.’ And he said, ‘Jack, we wound up our work al ready. We wound up what we were doing. We are finished what we are doing. T will tell the boys about your thoughtfulness, and I will thank them for you. 5 H 187 ay he Grant stated that Ruby called her from the deli. (14 H 434) 53. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that he then decided to take the sand- 71¢. is J | ° 12 21 me ? Phen (1)Melee to find phone numbers for KLIF, because I wanted to bring sandwiches there.” Ruby says this occurs at 11:30 m. (RN 4 (o) So the going down to the police station, I try to call She but can’t get their number, I wantedto bring the sandwiches to K ‘ so they would have the sandwiches, since they already started to make them up.” (5 H 187) 1108 54. “[T] looked through my clothing and every place I could think of but couldn’t find Russ’ number. Tried to look for Russ Knight’s number but couldn’t find it. Then called information, but somehow couldn’t remember Russ’ real name. However, I dialed for information and tried anyway, and mentioned his name as Roberts and that he lived on Northwest Highway, but she couldn’t help me.” (RN) 55. (@) Ruby tells the FBI he called Gordon McLendon’s home to get the number for KLIF, and McLendon’s daughter gave him a num- ber and told Ruby that Mrs. McLendon had already sent food to the station. (12/21) (6) “Then I decided to call the Gordon McLendon home, and asked a young lady if anvone else was at home, and told her my name, but she said there wasn’t anyone else at home, and I asked her name, and I think she said Christine, and told her I wanted to bring sandwiches to the station and she could get me the number, and she said her mother already had brought some food, then she left and gave me a Riverside number which was discontinued. I had made so many calls that the woman behind the counter asked me if I would like to use the business phone, but I told her I was through.” (RN) (c) “But in the meantime, I called Gordon McLendon’s home, be- cause I know he lives near the synagogue out there, and I got a little girl on the phone, and I knew they had children, and I asked for the number for KLIF ...I called that number, as I am repeating myself. There was no such number. It was an obsolete number.” (5 H 188) 56. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he walked over to police headquarters to find someone who could give him the KLIF number. (11/25) (6) Ruby tells the # BI that he drove downtown, parked across from City Hall, and tried to find some KLIF newsmen at headquarters. Ruby told an officer he was looking for Joe Long and was let in. He had Long paged but there was no response. (12/21) (c) “[I] drove down to the station to look for Joe Long to try to find the number so I could get into the radio station, parked car with dog on corner of Harvard and Commerce, and thought I would run up for a minute just to get number.” At 12 midnight, “Take the elevator to 2nd or 8rd floor and asked policeman if he knew Joe Long from KLIF, and he let me go by. Ran into some officers I knew, and he had asked a police officer if he could help me, and he called out quite loudly through the hall, but no answer to the page. At different intervals I would spot check and ask someone if they were Joe Long.” (RN) (d) “I drove down to Commerce and Harvard and parked my car with my dog—incidentally, I always have my dog with me—on the lot there, left the sandwiches in the car, went into the building of the police station, took the elevator up to the second floor, and there was a police officer there. This is the first time I ever entered the building, gentlemen. The first time of that Friday. This time it must have been about—I mean the time, the time of my entering the building, I guess, — was approximately 11:15 p.m. The officer was there and J said, ‘Where is Joe Long?’ I said, ‘Can I go and look for him?’ Evidently I took a little domineering part about me, and I was able to be admitted. I asked different reporters and various personalities there, ‘Are you Joe Long?’ and I couldn’t locate him. I recognized a couple of police 1109 officers, Cal Jones and a few others, and I said ‘hello’ to them am still looking for Joe Long, . And I but I am ca: ried away with ment of history.” (5 H 188) the excite- 57. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he saw the hall to an assembly room, and officers escorting Oswald down upstairs. (11/25) then back dow1 the hall and (6) Ruby tells the FBI that Fritz came then went back into the office, and then out of an office with Oswald, bly room, and he saw Oswald there, Rub y went down to the assem- although he couldnt hear what Oswald was saying during his intervie w. (c) “Then as I was standing in the(12/21 prisoner (Oswald) out, that was the first hallway they brought the don’t recall if he was with Captain Fritz time I had ever seen him. I the reporters shouted if there was a betteor Chief Curry or both. Then r place they would gather so as to have room for all the reporters. The authorities said they would go down to the assembly room in the basement gone too. They brought the prisoner out and, and that is where I had unintelligible and it wasn’t before they he mumbled something had taken him back again.” RN (d) “And one fellow then—I am in the hallw narrow hallway, and I don’t recall if Captain ay there—there is a Fritz or Chief Curry brings the prisoner out, and I am standing about 2 or 3 feet away from him. They said, ‘Well, let’s go down to the assembly room downstairs.’ I don’t know what transpired in between from the time that I had the officer page Joe Long up to the time I was standing about Oswald. All the things—I don’t recall if I am telling you 3 feet from that happened from that time, from the time I entered everything the the time I went down to the assembly room. I went down building to sembly room in the basement. I felt perfectly free walking to the as- in there. No one asked me or anything. I got up on a little table there where knew I wasn’t blocking anyone’s view, because there was an abutm I sticking out, and I had my back to the abutment, and I was ent standing there. Then they brought the prisoner out and various questions were being shouted.” (5 H 187-188) 58. “And they questioned Henry Wade, ‘What organiza yw tion did he belong to,’ or something. And if I recall, I think Henry Wade an- swered ‘Free Cuba.’ And I corrected Henry Wade, because listening to the radio or KLIF, it stood out in my mind that it was ‘Fair Play Cuba.’ There is a difference. So he said, ‘Oh yes, Fair Play Cuba, and he corrected that. I don’t know how long we remained there. There was a lot of questions thrown back and forth, and this District Attorney Henry Wade was answering them the best he could. We left out in the hallway, and I saw Henry Wade standing there, and I went over to him and said, ‘Henry, I want youto know I was the one that corrected you.’ I think it is a childish thing, but I met Henry Wade sometime back, and I knew he would recognize me.” (5 H 189). 59. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he got the number for KLIF from a KBOX employee, and he called the number and eventually set up a telephone interview with Wade. (12/ 21) | (0) “Then everyone left the room, and two fellows walked by as I was walking out of the room, one I had recognized who had worked at a service station across from the Vegas Club, but I asked the other 1110 fellow if he was Joe Long, and he asked why, and I said I had some sandwiches to bring to KLIF, and I couldn’t get in, unless I had the right phone number and he said we are from KBOX what about them, and I said next time, and he did give me the number, and I spoke to the other fellow for a minute and was surprised he was working for radio, I believe his name is Sam. “T went around the desk and dialed the number, and spoke to some dise jockey by the name of Ken and I told hin. I had sandwiches for the boys, * * * but then I suddenly said you would like to talk to Henry Wade and to have his tape ready, and he became very excited and said definitely yes. Wade was on the phone talking to New York I believe, to another radio station so I surely thought he wouldn’t object to talking to this other disk jockey, and I shouted to Mr. Wade just as he was about to hang up the receiver, or perhaps they were waiting for someone to come to the phone, and I did get him to leave and he did talk to this fellow, when they had finished I got on the phone again and he was thrilled and didn’t know how to thank me enough, and said if I would leave immediately they would leave the door open for me.” (RN) (c) “And it so happened I found out Jerry Cunkle and Sam Pease, I found out they were the names, so I did get the number, because these fellows work for a rival radio station, and he gave me the number of KLIF. So I called one of the boys at KLIF and I said to them, ‘I have sandwiches for you. I want to get over there.’ I said, ‘By the way, I see Henry Wade talking on the phone to someone. Do you want me to get him over here?’ And he said, ‘Yes, do that.’ That is when everyone was beckoning Henry Wade, and I called him over and he talked on the phone to this boy. And after he finished, I didn’t even tell him what station it was. I said, ‘Here is somebody that wants to talk to you.’ And I felt he wouldn’t turn it down. And this fellow was very much elated that I brought him over there. And I said, ‘Now will you let me in?’ He said, ‘I will only leave the door open 5 minutes.’ That pap: the conversation was finished with Henry Wade.” (5 H 189- 190). 60. (a) “As I was leaving and walked up one flight of stairs I saw Russ Knight talking to someone and he seemed to be asking for infor- mation. What he was asking was where the assembly room was, and then he saw me, and I immediately told him that I got an interview with Henry Wade for his station and replied that is what he come for, and I said follow me, and taken him to Henry Wade and shouted here reea Knight, Henry, and he answered ‘Oh! The Weird Beard!” (b) “I got ready to leave the building and I got up to the next floor and there was Henry Wade sitting there. And J said, ‘Henry, this is Russ Knight.’ And I left him there with Henry Wade, and I went to i.ae a drove over to KLIF, which is a block away from there.” 5 H 190 61. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that the door was locked at KLIF and he waited for 10 or 15 minutes and Knight arrived and they went in together. (12/21) (6) “Then I left and drove over to KLIF but the door was closed, because I had taken too much time getting there. Waited for Russ for about 15 minutes and we both had gone up, he was so happy for what 1111 I had done that he definitely was going to tell what I had accomplished.” (RN) Gordon McLendon (c) “And it was a little chilly that night, as I recall, Russ Knight over to Henry Wade, I delayed too long but by bringing and I had to wait 15 minutes until Russ Knight came to get to KLIF, his interview with Henry Wade. I had the sandwiches from, finishing some soda pop and various thin gs, and Russ Knigh with me and t opened the door and we went upstairs.” (5 H 190) (Note: Ruby tells the FBI that after leaving headquarters turned home, watched TV, and read the papers.) (11/25) he re- 62. (a) “We all started in on the sandwiches and soft drinks, they certainly enjoyed them. We talked about a number and of things.” (RN (6) “I remained at KLIF from that moment on, from the time into the building, with Russ Knight. We talked about various I got things -.. I remained there until about 2:00 a.m. and we all partook sandwiches and had a feast there.” (5 H 190) of the 63. (a) “I left the building. I drove—I was going to go toward \ Times Herald Building, because as a result * * *. As T was driving the toward the Times Herald with the intention of doing these things, heard someone honk a horn very loudly, and I stopped. There was I police officer sitting in a car. He was sitting with this young lady thata works in my club, Kathy Kay, and they were very much carried away. And I was carried away; and he had a few beers. I didn’t tell you this part because at the time I thought a lot of Harry Carlson as a police officer, and either it slipped my mind in telling this, or it was more or less a reason for leaving it out, because I felt I didn’t want to involve them in anything because it was supposed to be a secret that he was going with this young lady. He had marital problems. “I don’t know if that is why I didn’t tell you that. Anyway, I did leave it out. His name is Harry Carlson. Her name is Kathy Kay. And they talked and they carried on, and they thought I was the greatest guy in the world, and he stated they should cut this guy into ribbons, and so on. And she said, ‘Well, if he was in England, they would drag him through the streets and would have hung him.’ I forget what she said. I left them after a long delay. They kept me from leaving. They were constantly talking and were in a pretty dramatic mood. They were crying and carrying on.” (5 H 191) | (Note: The officer’s name is Harry Olsen and this is the only time Ruby mentions this meeting in any of his statements. See testimony and statements of Olsen and Kay Coleman for more details.) 64. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he left KLIF at about 3:00 a.m. and went to the Times Herald building and talked to Pat Godash and gave him a twist board and got his ad taken care of. (12/21) () “Went to the Times Herald to bring a twist board I had prom- ised to Pat Godash for some time. Went to composing room and demon- strated board, a few of printers gathered and they enjoyed my agile way of doing it...Told Pat to put in my ad that I was closing.” (RN) (c) “This—TI imagine, is—I left the KLIF at 2:00 a.m. and I spent an hour with the officer and his girl friend, so it must have been about 3:15 approximately. No, it wasn’t. When you are not concerned with time, it could have been 4:00? * * * IT am up there in the composing room talking to a guy by the name of Pat Godash. He was so elated 1112 that I brought him this twist board, and I had it sealed in a poly- ethylene bag but he wanted to see how it is demonstrated, how it was worked. Then he placed the ad im, and if I recall, I requested from Pat to put a black border around to show that the ad was m mourning, or something, beeause we were, everything was in mourning.” (5 H 1938-194) (¢) Times Herald employees place Ruby’s visit there at 3:45-4:00 a.m. (CR 105, p. 325) 65. “I had taken the elevator down and I spoke to the night watch- man at the door for a few minutes.” (RN) 66. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that he went home and awakened Senator. (12/21) (5) “Got in my car and drove home, and then awakened George, and he said he had seen my ads in the paper that I was closing for 3 days, and we talked about the tragedy, and he was heartbroken, too!” (RN) 67. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he called Larry (Crafard) at the club and asked him if he knew how to operate a Polaroid camera. (12/21) (6) At 3:30, “ I made him get out of bed, and told him I wanted him to go with me, and called Larry at the club, got him out of bed and asked him if he knew how to work a Polaroid camera, and he said yes, I told him to be down in the garage in 10 minutes with the camera and bring plenty of film and bulbs.” (RN) 68. (a2) Ruby tells the FBI he and Senator picked up Crafard at about 4 :00 or 5:00 a.m. (12/21) (6) “George and I got to the garage and he wasn’t there, and I be- came impatient thinking he may have gone back to bed again, and had night man call him, and he said he would be right down.” (RN) 69. (a) Ruby tells the FBI they went out and took pictures of the Impeach Earl Warren billboard. (12/21) (6) At 4:00, “We drove to EK. Ross and Expressway and took photos of a billboard.” (RN) 70. (a) Ruby tells the FBI they went to a post office to check on the identity of the billboard’s backer. (12/21) (6) “We had taken three snapshots of same, then stopped at post office asked man how does it happen that they give a box to person placing an ad of that sort in the newspaper. He said he didn’t have a thing to do with it. He went and checked again and said there was a person and that is all he could answer me. I went to look at the amount of mail in Box 1792, and tried to make certain I would re- member if the contents would be removed the next time I’d stop by. George was with me, and Larry was sitting in the car.” (RN) 71. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that they went to the coffee shop at the Southland Hotel, and Ruby talked to the owner for a few minutes and Ruby couldn’t eat but had some juice. (12/21) (6) “From there we had gone to Habb’s Coffee Shop in the South- land Hotel, they had some coffee and I had some juice. I spoke to the — owner for about a minute. I don’t recall what I had said to him, per- haps about hunting.” (RN) 72. Ruby tells the FBI they left the coffee shop and he dropped | Larry Crafard off at the Carousel at about 6 a.m.(12/21) 73. (w) Ruby tells the FBI that he and Senator returned to the apart- ment and went to bed. (12/21) . (6) “However, when I got back to the apartment I decided I would go to bed.” (RN) 1113 SaTurDAy, NoveMBer 23, 1963 4, (a) Ruby tells the FBI that at about 30 called him and asked what kind of dog food 8he a.m. Larry Crafard wante (6) “It wasn’t long before I got a phone call and d. (19/21) I asked him what did he want very angrily, and heit was Larry, and what kind of dog food wanted to know he should buy, then I asked was, and when he said 8:30 a.m. I bawled the heck him what time it out of him for get- ting me up at this early hour forgetting that I menti oned that I wasn’t going to bed, and then hung up on him.” (RN) 75. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he got up at 11 or 11:30 a.m.(1 (6) George Senator stated that Ruby awoke shortly after 2/21) (14 H 224 10 a.m. _ (6. (a) At 11 am., “That same morning I phoned Andy have called me and he said that Larry had left.” (RN) or he may (6) Stanley Kaufman said Ruby called him Saturday mornin g. (CE 1816) (7. (a) “That same morning I think George also stayed in the apart- ‘tment and watched television. Then I watched on television a memoria given by some synagogue and a Rabbi Seligman of New York l for Sab- bath services in honor of the late President Kennedy.” (RN) (6) “Saturday I watched Rabbi Seligman. He went ahead and eulo- gized that here is a man that fought in every battle, went to every coun- try, and had to come back to his own country to be shot in the back.” (5H 198) | (c) Senator states he and Ruby fixed breakfast and watched TV during morning. (CE 1810) (Note: Ruby tells the FBI that he got up, got dressed, and left the apartment.) (12/21) Eva Grant stated that Ruby was at her apartment Saturday morn- ing.(Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 167 P. Labro (media) says he saw Ruby on the 3rd floor of the DPO at about 12. (CE 2276) 78. (a) “I really don’t know what time I left the apartment, and Andy said that he phoned me or I phoned him.” (RN) (6) Armstrong said that this call took place at about 1 p.m. 19. (a) “T really don’t know what time I left the apartment.” (RN) (6) Witness states he saw Ruby outside his apartment driving out his driveway at approximately 1 or 1 :30.(CE 2330) 80. (a) “I drove towards town and either had gone to the club first or had gone to look at the wreaths?” (RN) é (6) Ruby was seen between 1:30 and 2 at the parking garage near the club. (serial 634, p. 680, CE 2341) 81. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that on Saturday morning he drove to the spot where the President was killed and spent an hour there and talked ‘to Officer Chaney for some time. (11/25) (6) Ruby tells the FBI that after he left his apartment at 11 or 11:30 he stopped to look at the wreaths and spoke to Officer Chaney for a few minutes, and went up the street and met Wes Wise and talked ‘to him for a few minutes. (12/21) (c) “I pulled my car north on Hudson Street past Elm Street to park my car, there was a policeman on that intersection guiding the heavy W4U-105 0 = 79 - 71 1114 traffic, and I walked down Elm Street toward the underpass and saw Officer Chaney there, I’ve known him for many years, and had asked him. which one of the windows was used and he pointed or described | it to me. We talked for a few minutes and then I couldn’t talk any- more and had to walk off because I was choking and holding my tears back... Saw the wreaths on the Plaza and started to cry again. Crossed over the other side of Houston Street and walked north to cross over Elm. As I reached the other side of Elm and about 50 feet from the corner I ran into Wes Wise parked in a KRLD news car, and stopped to talk and I mentioned that I get a scoop for KLIF and I said it was just a little something that happened, and didn’t talk more about it.” (RN) (2) Wes Wise said he saw Ruby around the TSBD at about 3 p.m. (CE 2249, p. 35 CE 3039) Officer Hachness said he saw Ruby at Elm and Houston about 2:30 or 3 p.m. (CE 2249, p. 7.) (e) Officer Chaney says he saw Ruby between 3 and 4 p.m. (CE 2249, p. 9) ; or at about 3 :30 p.m. (CE 2324) (f) Garmet Hallmark spoke to Ruby at the parking lot near Com- merce at 3 p.m. (Alexander n.b. p. 275) 82. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he went home after visiting Dealey Plaza and watched TV and read the papers. (11/25) (6) Ruby tells the FBI he went home and then went to Sol’s Turf Bar later in the afternoon, where he talked to his accountant, Abe Kleinman, and to a “Bellochio” about the assassination and the bill- board. Ruby says he called Stanley Kaufman from the bar, that he was ioe “fie 45 minutes, and he left sometime between 3:00 and 4:00. 12/21 (c) At 3:00, “Got into my car and must have circled back either to the club first or had gone to Sol’s Turf Lounge, I had gone there to look up my accountant, Abe Kleinman, went in and heard a lot of comment about the big ad in the news, and they were complaining why a news- paper would take such an ad. Mr. Kleinman was there and a jewelry de- signer by the name of Bellochio. It became quite a discussion, and they heard Bellochio say that he is leaving Dallas and was very emphatic about it, that his mind was made. I jumped all over him telling him that Dallas was good enough for him when he was making his living here, and now he wants to quit and run. I kept repeating don’t say that because you will start something we won’t be able to stop.” (RN) ws Se Witnesses saw Ruby at the bar at about 1:30 p.m. (CR 105, p. 83. Various persons stated that they saw Rnhv at DPD headquarters sometime during the afternoon. (CR 105, p. 326) 84. “From there (Sol’s Turf Bar) went to sister Val’s (Eve’s) apart- ment * * * Then J told Eve I was tired after watching television for. awhile and took the phone with me to her bedroom and called Russ Knight * * * Then I must have called Stanley Kaufman and also told him about the photos. * * *” (RN) (Note: Ruby tells the FBI that after he left the bar he may have gone to see his tailor, then to the Carousel, then to his apartment, with no mention of going to Eva Grant’s apartment.) (12/21) 85. (a) “Then J think T had taken a nap.” (RN) 1115 (5) Eva Grant stated that Ruby left her apartment after to Kaufman, returned at 3:30 or 4:00, and left again at about the call (14 H 434; Ruby FBI files serial 634, pp. 167-168) 8:00 p.m. (c) Ruby was seen at Miller’s shoeshine shop (1322 Comme rce) at 9:30 p.m. (Alex., n.b. p. 313) 86. Bob Larkin says that he saw Ruby at the corner of Browder and Commerce Streets at about 5:30 p.m. and spoke to him for minutes. (CE 2329) 5 or 10 | 87. (a) “Then had gone down to the club, and Andy was and he thought he was going to get off early, and I insiste cleaning, thought he was going to get off earlier, and I insisted that he d that he will have to stay until 9 p.m. and gave him an ultimatum that it would _be that way. I may have called Ralph and told him we were have to closing.” RN (Note: Ruby tells the FBI he gave this ultimatum to Armstr over the phone at about 6 p.m.) (12/21) ong (0) Armstrong stated that Ruby was at the Carousel betwee (p.m. and only stayed a short time. (—H—) n 6 and 88. (a) “I called the Adolphus Hotel and asked for Joe Peterso they said he left town for 3 days, they gave me the phone number n; in Galveston and I called and talked to Joe or Brek and told them had closed for 3 days and they said they also wanted to get I away.” (Note: See items 25 and 26; Ruby may be confusing calls on Friday and Saturday.) 89. (a) At 8, “Had gone back to my apartment and showered shaved.” (RN) and ; 90. (a) “Phoned Andy and told him about the new girl and over and catch the show over at the Colony Club, and to see aboutto go audition show and I would give them their money back.” (RN) the (b) Armstrong places a call at 9 p-m. (Alexander, n.b. p. 82) 91. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he called a friend, Thomas O’Grady, merly with the DPD. (11/25) for- (6) O’Grady states this call took place at about 8:30 p.m. (CE 2325) 92. Billy Don Williams says he called the Carousel and spoke Ruby between 9 and 10. (sev. 1925) (cf. CE 1527) to 93. Ruby was seen near the Hall Diner between 9 and 10. (CR 105, . 326) 4 94. Ruby was sighted at DPD headquarters sometime during evening. (Alexander, p. 173) (CR 105, p. 326) the 95. (a) At 10:20, “Phoned Eve and asked her if she was watchi television.” (RN) ng 96. Senator said Ruby was at his apartment when he returne d at bout 10:30 p.m. (CE 1810) 97. (a) Ruby called Lawrence Meyers at his Dallas Cabana room tween 10 and 10:30 and they spoke for 10 to 15 minutes. (— be- H — (Mevers) ) (6) Ruby calls parking lot attendant H. Reeves at about 10 :30 p.m. (CE 2287) 98. (a7) A 9-minnte phone ell was made from Ruby’s 0 the Bull Pen at 10:44 p.m. (PR) apartment (Note: This is probably the controversial call wherein Paul “Are you crazy?” to Ruby.) states 1116 (b) Ruby stops at Nichols Garage (Commerce Street) at 10:50 or 11 p.m. to reimburse the attendant $5. (CE 2287) 99. A 1-minute call is made from the Carousel to the Bull Pen at 11:18 p.m. 100. A 2-minute call is made from the Carousel to the Bull Pen at 11:36 p.m. (PR) 101. A 2-minute call is made from the Carousel to Bill Ray Wilson at the Galveston number of Thomas McKenna at 11:44 p.m. (PR; Cr 360, p. 133) 102. A 1-minute call is made from the Carousel to Paul’s home num- ber at 11:47 p.m. (PR) 103. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he left his apartment at 11 p.m. and went to the Pago Club. (12/21) (b) At 10:30, “Drove to town and drove out to Bob Norton at the Pago Club.” (RN) c) Ruby was seen at the Pago Club at about midnight. (Ruby FBI files serial 658, p. 100; CE 2337) 104. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that at the club he had a Coke and spoke to the manager, Bob Norton. (b) “A girl came over and asked me what I would like and I ordered a Coke but didn’t feel like drinking it, I sat for about 15 or 20 minutes and didn’t want anyone to recognize me, because I didn’t want to ex- plain to anyone why, if I didn’t want to dance or to have a drink. I sort sat in a shell and didn’t want to be recognized. Bob Norton came over and apologized saying he didn’t know I was there or he would have been there sooner ... He gave me $25 and I asked him — i what, and he explained and I refused to take it, but he insisted.” RN) (c) “Then that Saturday night, I didn’t do anything but visit a club over here and had a Coca-Cola, because I was sort of depressed. A fellow that owns the Pago Club, Bob Norton, and he knew some- thing was wrong with me in the certain mood I was in.” (5 H 198) (Note: Norton says he gave Ruby $50.) (CE 2836) 105. (a) “Said good-nite and drove downtown and pulled into the garage, asked the attendant something and then drove to my apart- ment.” (RN) (b) Ruby tells the FBI he drove home after leaving the club. (12/21) 106. At 12:40 a.m., “Phoned Eve and told her something, asked why she didn’t go to bed.” (RN) Sunpay, NoveMBER 24, 1963 107. At about 8:30 a.m. Ruby received a call from Elnora Pitts, who wanted to find out when she could come over to clean the apartment. 108. (a) Ruby tells the FBI that Little Lynn called and needed heen oh Ruby told her he would send $25 via Western Union. 19/21 (6) At 10, “Received call from Lynn, said she had to have money, told her I don’t have to let her draw money, that all ’m obligated to do is pay her salary, but she said she had to pay her 1117 rent, and then it dawned on me that we were going to be closed tonight, and thought she may desperately need some money and I said how can I get the money to you, and I think she said she will come to my apartment but I certainly didn’t want that because of her supposed- to-be husband, and that is all I would need for them to know where I live. I took time to ask her how to send it, because all I know her by was Little Lynn, I think I wrote her name out and spelled it Karren Bennett, and asked her if she knew where the Western Union was in Fort Worth... Anyway I told her it will be in care of Will Call Western ($25) ; George Senator was there during all this.” (RN) (¢) Phone records show this call occurring at 10:19 a.m. (PR) (CE 2019) oe wa? Ruby tells the FBI he left his apartment at about 10 a.m. 11/25 (6) Ruby tells the FBI he left his apartment, and as he drove out of the driveway stopped to talk to a neighbor. (12/21) (c) “Then left the apartment and spoke to a neighbor for a minute (Curtiss?) about some fences I promised him then left to go to Wes- tern Union to send money to Lynn.” (RN) (d) Senator stated that Ruby left the apartment shortly after 10:30. 110. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he drove to a parking lot across the street north of Western Union, at the corner of Main and N. Central Expressway. (11/25) (6) Ruby tells the FBI he drove so he could pass the wreaths and he passed by the county jail and noticed lots of people so he assumed that Oswald had already been transferred there and then he drove up Main and saw people around city hall and he made an illegal leit turn and parked in a lot across from Western Union. (12/21) (c) At 10:45, “Was always in the habit of taking the freeway straight down Commerce Street but since the tragedy have been going by to see the wreaths, and remember there would be more traffic on Main Street, because it is where there is more activity going on than Commerce Street, and if I was in a hurry to get anywhere I certainly would have stayed on Commerce, especially Sunday, the street is dead. “Anyway I passed the intersection where I was to turn left and then right on Industrial, so that I could pass where the wreaths were and at the same time drive toward the Western Union. I backed up in reverse, so.as to make the correct turn. yet “Did pass where all of wreaths were and then passed the county jail on the left and saw the biggest crowd I had ever seen there, and thought to myself that they already have transferred the prisoner and continued to drive on the Western Union, and pulled in a parking lot on the left.” (RN) raw (d) “And I drove past Main Street past the county building and there was a crowd already gathered there. And I guess I thought I new he was going to be transferred at 10, I don’t know. I listened to the radio; and I passed a crowd and it looked—! am repeating my- self—and I took it for granted he had already been moved. “And I parked my car in the lot across from the Western Union. * * So my purpose was to go to the Western Union——-ny double surpose—but the thought of doing, committing the act wasn’t until I 1118 left my apartment. Sending the wire was when I had the phone call— or the money order. I drove down Main Street—there was a little incident I left out, that I started to go down a driveway, but I wanted to go by the wreaths, and I saw then and started to cry again, Then I drove, parked the car across from the Western Union.” (5 H 199) 111. (a) Ruby tells the FBI he sent a $25 money order to Karen Bennett. (11/25) (12/21) (6) “Waited my turn because the clerk was waiting on someone — else, and I filled out a form to send money.” (RN) (c) “Went into Western Union, sent the money order, whatever it was.” (5 H199) (d) Ruby’s time stamp receipt from Western Union shows 11:17 _ a.m. 112. (a2) Ruby enters the basement. The statements about this by — Ruby and others are too voluminous to include here, but there are contradictions and inconsistencies. 113. (a) At 11:21 a.m. Ruby shoots Oswald. ) Submitted by: G. Roperr BLAKEY, Chief Counsel and Staff Director. Gary T. CorRNWELL, Deputy Chief Counsel. MicHAEL EWING, Researcher. REFERENCES (1) See ref. 94, this section, and accompanying text. (2) FBI interview of Curry, Dec. 17, 1963. CEH1660, Hearings before the Presi- dent’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1964), vol. 28, p. 184 (hereinafter 28 Warren Hearings, 134) ; Seth Kantor, “Who Was Jack Ruby” (Everest House, 1978), p. 9, and accompanying footnotes 15-16. (3) See ref. 18 and accompanying text; Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview with Joe Bonds, CE1227, 22 Warren Hearings, 335. (4) Ruby FBI files serial 249; Ruby FBI files serial 700, cover page D. (5) Ruby testimony, June 7, 1964, 5 Warren Hearings. 187. (6) Dee. 17, 1968 FBI interview with T. Fleming, CE1632, 23 Warren Hear- ings, 106. (7) Nov. 20, 1963 FBI interview of Herbert Kelly, CH1515, 23 Warren Hear- ings, 3. (8) Nov. 28, 19638 FBI interview with James Dunne II, CE1500, 22 Warren Hearings, 917. (9) Report of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office. 1964), p. 801 and accompanying footnote 380 (hereinafter Warren Report). Robert Lee Shorman ~ told the FBI that Ruby would run down to the police station to find out what was going on whenever there was a case of unusual interest in Dallas (Nov. 26, 1963 : FBI interview of Shorman, CE1505, 22 Warren Hearings, 920). : (10) See ref. 5, p. 187. (11) Dec. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, 20 Warren Hearings, 56; Dec. 13, 1963 FBI interview of Hugh G. Smith, Ruby FBI files serial 890, p. 97: Dec. 10, 1963 interview of Bryce G. Brady II, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 287. It should be kept in mind that DPD regulations prohibited the acceptance of gifts ( and favors from someone such as Ruby. Therefore DPD members, the best source of such information, probably have been most reluctant to discuss these matters. (12) Nov. 25, 1968 FBI interview of Mrs. Paul Calgrove, CH1518, 23 Warren Hearings, 1. (13) Dec. 2, 1963 FBI interview of Pete Fisher, Ruby FBI files serial 343. (14) See ref. 5, p. 187. 1119 (15) Croy Exhibit 5051, 19 Warren Hearings, 388. This have practice may occurred at other times. See CE1659, Dec. 24, 1943 FBI intervie w of Rhodes, 28 Warren Hearings, 132. (16) Dec. 7, 1963 FBI interview of Leake, CE38006, 26 Warren Hearings, 530. (17) Dee. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, 20 Warren Hearings, 47 and 62; Dec. 6, 1963 letter from E. E. Carlson to Jesse Curry, p. 8 (JFK Document 002488) ; Nov. 27, 1963 FBI interview of Nancy Perrin Rich, Ruby FBI files serial 416; Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Wallace Rash, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 3386. (18) Dec. 31, 1963 FBI interview of L. Sherin, CE174/, 23 Warren Hearings, 355. Sherin also told the FBI that Ruby would advise policemen which strippers had boyfriends and which “will play.” (19) Dee. 20, 1963 FBI interview of J oey Gerard, CE1744, 23 Warren Hearings, 353. (20) Dec. 24, 1963 FBI interview of Rhodes, CH1659, 23 Warren Hearings, 132. (27) Random notes of Jack Ruby, CH1254, p. 19 (JFK Document 004076). (22) Warren Report, p. 801, and accompanying footnote 387. (23) Dec. 16, 1963 FBI interview of Pullman, CEH1636, 23 Warren Hearings, ATT: (24) Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Herbert Kelly, Ruby FBI files serial 634, pp. 550-551, CE1515, 23 Warren Hearings, 3. (25) See, e.g., Feb. 20, 1978 House Select Committee on Assassinat ions staff interview of Rose Smreker (JFK Document 006116) ; June 28, 1964 letter #rom Eva Grant to the Warren Commission (JFK Document 004474). (26) Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Herbert Kelly, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 551. Eva Grant testified that on occasion Ruby would give an officer $10, and although the officer may have written a check to him in return, Ruby would never cash it but would keep it in his possession. Grant testimony, May 28, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 485. (27) July 24, 1964 letter from Eva Grant to the Warren Commissio n. (28) Eberhardt testimony, Mar, 25, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings, 193. (29) Dec. 17, 1963 FBI interview of T. Fleming, CE.1632, 23 Warren Hearings, 108. (30) Letter from Eva Grant to the Warren Commission. CD1252, notes by FBI agents Hare and Clements, Dec. 21, 1963, p. 4 (JFK Document 004076). (31) Warren Report, p. 801 and accompanying footnote 388; Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Joe Bonds. CE1227, 22 Warren Hearings, 335: and CE1696, 23 Warren Hearings, 169. (32) Deposition of Earl Ruby, July 20, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations, p. 42 (JFK Document 010450). (33) FBI interviews of Carl Maynard (Noy. 21, 1963), Robert S. Hersch (Dec. 4, 1963), Richard W. Proeker (Dec. 24, 1963), Paul R. Jones (Dec. 19, 1963), Ruby FBI files serials 304, 423, 921 (p. 183), 890 (p. 50). In a similar vein Gerry Redin, a stripper, told the FBI that Ruby would provide officers with drinks and “perhaps as a result of this, the Dallas police never bothered Ruby when he held stag parties.” Ruby FBI files serial 890, p. 179. Jerry Biesel, a Dallas attorney, told the Committee that Ruby, as well as other nightclub operators, would give small gifts to ofticers so they would be protected in the event they were caught serving drunks. Biesel never heard of any regular money payments. Interview of Biesel, May 4, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassi- nations, p. 2 (JFK Document 008956 ) . (34) Documentation may be impossible to obtain, as officers would be unlikely te admit taking payoffs. (35) Interview of Jesse Curry, May 6, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- Sinations, p. 3 (JFK Document 0138489 ). (36) Jan. 31, 1964 FBI interview of Brauner, CF1282, 22 Warren Hearings, 413. (37) Id. at p. 2. (38) Jack Revill, who was assigned to the Intelligence Section of the DPD in the early 1960’s, stated that each police section had its own informant files (unrecorded interview of Revill, Sept. 25, 1978, House Select on Committee Assassinations). Revill therefore could state that Ruby was not an informant for the intelligence division, but did not know about other sections. Testimony of Jack Revill, Sept. 26, 1978. Hearings before the Select Committee on Asgsassi- 1120 nations, U.S. House of Representatives, 95th Congress, 2d Session (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1979), vol. IV, p. 571 (hereinafter IV HSCA—JFK Hearings, 571). (39) Interview of Cody, July 11, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassina- tions, p. 3 (JFK Document 010168) ; see ref. 28, Eberhardt testimony, pp. 183-184. (40) Interview of Sawyer, May 24, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassi- — nations, p. 5 (JFK Document 009416). The distinction drawn seems to be between a source and informant. Sawyer noted that only the particular officer involved would know if Ruby was a source, as no official records of this would be kept by the department. (41) See ref. 39, p. 8. Ruby’s predisposition toward providing information to law enforcement officials extended elsewhere, as he was at one time a PCI (po- tential criminal informant) for the FBI, although this did not work out. (See JFK Document 003040). Ruby also offered, and gave information (albeit worthless), to the Kefauver Committee in the late 1950’s. See interview of Luis Kutner, April 15, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Docu- ment 008232). (42) FBI interview of Herbert Kelly (JFK Document 013931). (43) Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 544. Further hearsay information includes Tony Zoppi’s statement that a deceased, Italian member of Dallas’ organized crime group had told him that Ruby was known to be an informant for the DPD. Interview of Zoppi, Mar. 13, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 3 (JFK Document 006912). (44) Standifer Exhibit 1, Jan. 15, 1964. FBI interview of Standifer, 21 Warren Hearings, 549. One of Ruby’s acquaintances told the FBI that Ruby had a repu- tation of knowing the first names of more policemen than the Mayor of Dallas. Nov. 29, 1963 FBI interview of Brooks, CE1534, 23 Warren Hearings, 25. (45) See ref. 38, Revill testimony, pp. 125-126. (46) Curry testimony, Apr. 22, 1964, 4 Warren Hearings, 192, Chief Curry stated that a departmental order was distributed whereby all men who knew Ruby were to inform Curry or his subordinates. (47) See ref. 38, Revill testimony, p. 572. (48) See ref. 28, Eberhardt testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings, 195. Theodore Fleming told the FBI that Ruby was a casual acquaintance of almost every Dallas policeman. Dec. 17, 1963 FBI interview of Fleming, CE 1632, 23 Warren Hearings, 107. (49) Again, some officers may have been hesitant to admit a friendship or knowledge of Ruby in light of the Oswald shooting. (50) Nov. 25, 1963 FBI interview of E. BE. Carlson, CE 1180, 22 Warren Hearings, 294. (51) See ref. 28, Eberhardt testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 13 Warren Report, 194. Ruby told Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service on Nov. 24, 1963 that “if ever there was an opportunity for participation in police battle’ he would like to be a part of it. Interview of Ruby by Sorrels, Nov. 24. 1963, Sorrels Exhibit 1:25 Warren Hearings, 538. (52) Dec. 6, 1963 letter from Carlson to Curry, p, 6 (JFK Document 002488 ). (53) Ibid.; Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 22 (Nov. 25, 1963, FBI interview with Carlson). (54) Dee. 16, 1963 FBI interview of Arnett, CE 1615, 23 Warren Hearings, 94. (55) Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Delores Sylvia, Ruby FBI files serial 634, — p. 457; Olsen testimony, Aug. 6, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 626. (56) Ibid., Olsen testimony. (57) Id. at pp. 631 and 647. (58) See ref. 28, Eberhardt testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 18 Warren Hearings, 183. (59) Ibid., p. 193. (60) See ref. 39, Cody interview, p. 1. (61) Nov. 25, 1963 FBI interview of Gilmore, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 322; interview of Gilmore. May 26, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 1 (JFK Document 009446). (62) Interview of Sam Ruby and Eva Grant, June 13, 1978, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations, p. 4:(JFK Document 010144). (63) FBI interviews of J. Cavagnaro (Dec. 10, 1963) and R. Larkin (Dec. 238, 1963), CE 1592, 28 Warren Hearings, 79 and CE 2329, 25 Warren Hearings, 290. Yet it has also been stated that Ruby was afraid of Gilmore, since he was the : j 7 112] officer most likely to close down the club or reprima nd Ruby. When asked in 1978 about Ruby’s fear of him, Gilmore did not deny this. See ref. 61, HSCA/Gilmore interview, p. 3. See also, Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Gilmore, Ruby FBI files Serial 634, p. 322. (64) Fritz testimony, Apr. 22, 1964, 4 Warren Hearings , 235; interview of Fritz, Sept. 24, 1977, House Seleci Committee on Assassin ations, p. 4 (JFK Doc- ument 0023870). (65) Fritz testimony, July 14, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, 148. ' (66) Ibid. 6 ae Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Shorman, CE 1505, 22 Warren Hearings, (68) Nov. 24, 1963 and Dec. 17, 1963 FBI interviews of Kirk, Ruby FBI files serials 658 (p. 88) and 847 (p. 102). It should be noted that Kirk admitted an animosity toward Fritz. (69) See refs. 102 and 104 and accompanying text. (70) Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of Davidson, Ruby FBI files serial 445. (71) Nov. 26, 1963 FBI interview of R. Turman, CE 1467, 22 Warren Commis- sion 886-887. (72) See, e.g., Eberhardt testimony, 18 Warren Hearings, 195, ref. 28. (73) Nov. 25, 1963 FBI interview of J. L. Campbell, CE 1466, 22 Warren Hear- ings, 886. (74) Grant testimony, May 28, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 485. Hugh Gene Smith, a former DPD member, told the FBI that an officer hamed Denbow had used Ruby’s apartment on several occasions. Dec. 23, 19638 FBI interview of Smith, CE1646, 23 Warren Hearings, 119. (75) Dec. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, 20 Warren Hearing, 57. The self-serving nature of this statement should be kept in mind. (76) See, e.g., Olsen testimony, Aug. §, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 632; in- terview of Alice Alexander, Feb. 23, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassina- tions (JFK Document 006115) ; Nov. 29, 1963 FBI interview of S. Coffman, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 343. - (77) See, e.g., Bernard Fensterwald, Coincidence or Conspiracy (New York: Kensington Publishing Co., 1977), p. 425. (78) Jan. 23, 1964 FBI interview of Armstrong, p. 3 (JFK Document 004465) ; Aug. 21, 1964 FBI report, CE2430, 25 Warren Hearings, 530. (79) Aug. 20, 1964 FBI interview of Armstrong, CE2984, 26 Warren Hearings, 482. (80) Dee. 11, 1963 FBI interview of Owens, CE2987, 26 Warren Hearings, 494. ($1) See ref. 5, Ruby testimony, p. 203. (82) Dee. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, 20 Warren Hearings, 62. (83) Dee. 17, 1963 FBI interview of T. Fleming, CE1632, 23 Warren Hearings, 107. (84) See Warren Report, pp. 804-805. Ruby did have an arrest record consist- ing of minor charges. See CE1528, 23 Warren Hearings, 17. (85) Nov. 25, 1963 FBI interview of Mrs. Paul Calgrove, CE1513, 23 Warren Hearings, 1. (86) Warren Report, p. 805 and accompanying footnote 476; Senator testi- mony, Apr. 11, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 197-198. (87) Dec. 9, 1963 FBI airtel to Dallas from Director, p. 2, Ruby FBI files Serial 528, (88) Warren Report, p. 805. (89) Ruby’s traffic record from 1950 to 1963 showed that he received 20 tickets and that he paid four $10 fines and three $3 fines and was placed on 6 months’ probation as a traffic violator in 1956 and 1959. Warren report, p. 800 and accom- panying footnote 375. (90) Interview of Eva Grant and Sam Ruby, June 13, 1978, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations, p. 4 (JFK Document 010144). (91) Nov. 25, 1963 FBI interview of Joe Campisi, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 575. (92) Deposition of Joe Campisi, May 22, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 22-23 (JFK Document 010807) (see para. 923 of this report). (93) See Ruby FBI files serial 83. Mrs. Kaminsky told the FBI that Ruby seemed friendly with and was well known to Dallas police officers, but did not mention any specifics. Ruby FBI files serial 309. Nov. 24, 1963 FBI interview of ‘Kaminsky, p. 9. 1122 Panitz (94) See, e.g., FBI interviews of Alice Nichols (Nov. 25, 1963), Meyer serials 634 (Nov. 25, 1963), Bryce G. Brady II (Dec. 10, 1963), Ruby FBI files (p. 290), 330, 810 (p. 286). (95) Lowery Exhibit 5083, 20 Warren Hearings, 542. (96) Dec. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, vol. 20, p. 61. (97) Jan. 11, 1964 FBI interview of R. L. Davis, p. 128 (JFK Document 013930). Ponte 5, 1963 FBI interview of McMillon, McMillon Exhibit 5017, 20 War- ren Hearings, 559. Interview of McMillon, May 31, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, (JFK Document 010063). (99) Dec. 21, 1963 FBI interview of J ack Ruby, 20 Warren Hearings, 61. (100) See, e.g., Eberhardt testimony, p. 187, ref. 28; Dec. 15, 1963 DPD inter- view of Rutledge, CE2249, 25 Warren Hearings, 154; Dec. 10, 1963 FBI interview of Jenkins, 25 Warren Hearings, 178. (101) See, e.g., Dec. 1, 1963 FBI interview of Frank Johnston, Ruby FBI files serial 124; Dec. 1, 1963 FBI interview of F. Rheinstein, Ruby FBI files serial 457. (102) Standifer Exhibit 1, 21 Warren Hearings, 549; Jan. 15, 1964 FBI inter- view of Standifer, Ruby FBI files serial 966, p. 57. (103) Trial testimony (Tevas v. Ruby) of Richard Sims, March, 1964, 1 Warren Hearings, 71. (104) Nov. 24, 1963 FBI interview of Benny Bickers, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 577. Wally Weston, an emcee at the Carousel, told the FBI that Ruby spent much time at headquarters. Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 782. (105) Interview of Gilmore, May 26, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassi- nations, pp. 1-2 (JFK Document 009446) ; see also ref. 38, Revill testimony, p. 571. (106) Interview of O. A. Jones, May 5, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations. p. 2 (JFK Document 013492) ; interview of Jesse Curry, May 6, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 2 (JFK Document 013489). (107) This was also the conclusion on the Warren Commission. Warren Re- port, p. 219. (108) See Ruby FBI files, in particular serial 700. (109) Organizational and procedural details on this unit can be found in inter- view of Jones, May 5, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 013492), and Revill testimony, Jan. 31, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 74. Sections of the unit’s final report can be found in JFK Document 007036 and CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 48-194. (110) Warren Report, p. 224. (111) Id. at p. 219. But in its illustrative diagrams of the basement, the Com- mission used conclusive labels (‘‘Ruby’s route”). Id. at p. 17. (112) Report of DPD unit, CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 49 (JFK Document 007036) . (113) Dee. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, vol. 20, p. 56. (114) This assistance was necessary because the car was exiting the wrong ramp, aS an armored car was blocking the usual exit of the Commerce Street ramp. See interview of Pierce, May 29, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 1-2 (JFK Document 009415). (115) Ruby’s narrative of his entry was told a number of times with slight — factual discrepancies here and there. Ruby allegedly mentioned this holler when questioned following the shooting (McMillon Exhibit 5017, 20 Warren Hearings, © 558), but he neglected to mention it at other recitations. Dec. 21, 1963 FBI inter- view of Jack Ruby, vol. 20, p. 56. ; (116) Vaughn Exhibit 5336, 21 Warren Hearings, 689; Vaughn testimony, Apr. 17, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 360-363. ( (117) Interview of Vaughn, Nov. 22, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassi- nations (JFK Document 003427). (118) December 1963 FBI report, Ruby FBI files serial 921, p. 30; C2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 180. (119) Curry testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 39-40. Chief Curry also believed that the results of Patrolman Vaughn’s polygraph test indicated DEaKen ene by Vaughn. Curry testimony, Apr. 22, 1964, 4 Warren Hearings, (120) Pierce Exhibit 5077, 21 Warren Hearings, 132. (121) Maxey testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings. 287 ;Putnam testi- mony, Mar. 24, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 346; Maxey Exhibit 5094, 20 Warren Hearings, 606; Putnam Exhibit 5071, 21 Warren Hearings, 276. 1123 (122) Maxey Bxhibit 5096, 20 Warren Hearings, 611; Putnam Exhibit 5073, 21 Warren Hearings, 280. (123) Putnam Exhibit 5073, 21 Warren Hearings, 280; Talbert testimony, July 13, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, 189. (124) Interview of Flusche, June 7, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations, p. 1 (JFK Document 009689 ). (125) Id. at p. 2. (126) Revill, currently a captain in the DPD, was a lieutenant in 1963. (127) See ref. 38, Revill testimony, IV HSCA-JFK Hearings, 1338. (128) CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 106. (129) Revill testimony, 12 Warren Hearings, 81; CE2002, Harrison polygraph results, 24 Warren Hearings, 107-108. (180) Interview of Pierce, May 29, 1978, House Select Committe e on Assassina- tions, pp. 2-38 (JFK Document 009415) ; Pierce testimony , 12 Warren Hearings, 240. (131) Maxey testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 287. (132) Harrison Exhibit 5029, 20 Warren Hearings, 83-86. (133) Interview of Flusche, June 7, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations, p. 2 (JFK Document 009689). (134) Vaughn testimony, Apr. 17, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 359-360. (135) Id. at p. 359. (136) Vaughn Exhibit 5336, 21 Warren Hearings, 688-691. (137) Vaughn interview, Nov. 22, 1977, House Select Committe e on Assassina- tions, p.5 (JFK Document 003427 J. (138) See eg., Watson testimony, Mar. 20, 1966, 12 Warren Hearings, 377-378. (139) Dec. 4, 1963 FBI interview of McGarvy, CE2050, 24 Warren Hearings, 465 (140) CE2063, 24 Warren Hearings, 488; Tasker testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, 682-683. (141) Daniels left the force in 1962 due to a conflict of interests involving his nonpolice employment. Deposition of Daniels, Aug. 18, 1978, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations, pp. 83-5 (JFK Document 014016). (142) Id. at p. 19. (143) Daniels testimony, Apr. 16, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 228. (144) Deposition of Daniels, Aug. 18, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations, pp. 19-21. (145) See ref. 148. (146) Daniels Exhibit 5326, 19 Warren Hearings, 421-424; see ref. 144, pp. 19-20. (147) Daniels Exhibits 5325-5327, 19 Warren Hearings, pp. 419-420, 422, 426-- 7 (148) See ref. 144, pp. 10-11. (149) See ref. 143, pp. 231-282. (150) Id. at pp. 283-2384. (151) Daniels deposition, Aug. 18, 1978, House Select Committe e on Assassina- sions, pp. 12 and 18. (152) Daniels testimony, Apr. 16, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 231-232; and bid., p. 19. (153) Ibid., Daniels deposition, p. 16. (154) Daniels testimony, Apr. 16, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 226. (155) Dec. 21, 1963, FBI report, Ruby FBI files serial 921, p. 33. (156) Warren Report, p. 221. (157) Id. at p. 219. (158) Id. at p. 221. : (159) Turner testimony, March 25, 1964, 18 Warren Hearings, 135, 137. (160) Id. at pp. 135-136. (161) Id. at p. 186. (162) Ibid. (163) Sylvia Meagher, “Accessories After the Fact” (Vintage Press 1976), . 416. (164) See ref. 159, p. 140. (165) Id. at p. 185. (166) Unrecorded interview of Newman, May 80, 1978, House Select Committee n Assassinations, p. 1 (JFK Document 009430). Newman could not relate the ming of his sighting to the departure of Lieutenant Pierce’s car. Newman testi- 1124 and mony, Mar. 25, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 324 and Newman exhibits 5038-C 5038—D, 20 Warren Hearings, 648-649. (167) Although not recorded, Newman told this to an HSCA staff investigator during his May 380, 1978, interview. (168) See ref. 166, Newman testimony. (169) CE2179, basement diagram, 24 Warren Hearings, 851. (170) Newman Exhibit 5038, 20 Warren Hearings, 645. (171) See ref. 166, Newman testimony, p. 323. (172) Warren Report, p. 221 and accompanying footnote. (173) Outside contact report, Burt W. Griffin, Oct. 27, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations; see ref. 166, Newman testimony, pp. 329-330. (174) Warren Report, p. 221. (175) Dean testimony, Mar. 24, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 420; interview of Doc- Dean, Nov. 15, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 1 (JFK Talbert and ument 004718). Dean’s superior officers that morning were Capt. Cecil inter- Lt. Rio Pierce. Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 49, Nov. 25, 1953, FBI view of Swain. Sgt. James Putnam also had supervisory duties in the basement. Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 186, Nov. 28, 1963 FBI interview of Huffaker. (176) Ibid., Dean testimony, p. 429, and Dean interview, p. 12. Dean stated that he was situated on the Commerce Street ramp when the shooting occurred. Video- jumped into tapes indicate that Dean came from the Main Street ramp when he the pile. See CE 3072, 26 Warren Hearings, 666. (177) MeMillon Exhibit 5017, 20 Warren Hearings, 557; Archer Exhibit 5093, 19 Warren Hearings, 22-23. Clardy Exhibit 5061, 19 Warren Hearings, 331-333. (178) Ibid., Clardy Exhibit; Harrison testimony, Mar. 21, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 254; Stevenson testimony, Mar. 13, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 105. (179) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, pp. 480-432. (180) See ref. 175, Dean interview, p. 27. (181) Sorrels testimony, May 6, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings, 67. (182) Clardy testimony, Mar. 24, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 413-414. (183) McMillon Exhibit 5017, 20 Warren Hearings, 558; Archer Exhibit 5093, — 19 Warren Hearings, 22. . (184) Dec. 16, 1963, DPD report, p. 5 (JFK Document 007036). { (185) See ref. 182, p. 2112 ;CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 73. © (186) MeMillon Exhibit 5017, 20 Warren Hearings, 558; McMillon testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 18 Warren Hearings, 53. (187) See ref. 181, p. 80; see Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to Rankin, Mar. 30, 1964, p.3 (JFK Document 000882). Warren (188) See ref. 64, Fritz testimony, p. 244: C. Rav Hall Exhibit 2, 20 Hearings, 43-44: Hall testimony, May 28, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, 64 and 68. (189) Ruby FBI files serial 244, Nov. 25, 1963 FBI interview of Ruby, p. 5. (190) Revill testimony, Mar. 31, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 81; see ref. 38, Revill testimony, p. 589. (191) Dec. 12, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, 20 Warren Hearings, 56-57. (192) Warren Report, p. 219 and accompanying footnote 142. (193) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, p. 430. (194) Id. at pp. 482-4388. (195) See ref. 181, p. 80. (196) Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to Rankin, Mar. 30, 1964, p. 3 (JFK Document 000882). (197) See ref. 181, p. 79. (198) Id. at, p. 69. (192) Sergeant Dean’s credibility is suspect as a result of other statements For example, he told the Warren Commission that he had known Jack Rub; since 1960 or 1961. See ref. 175, Dean testimory, p. 427. He told the Select Com- mittee that he had known Ruby for 12 or 14 years. See ref. 175, Dean inter- view, p. 3. Dean’s credibility is also examined in Elmer Gertz, Moment of Mad ness (Chicago: Follett Publishers), pp. 71 ff. (200) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, p. 432. (201) See ref. 175, Dean interview, pp. 8 and 29. (202) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, p. 433. (203) See ref. 181, Sorrels testimony, p. 81; and the BBC transcript of th interview with Dean (JFK Document 007270). (204) CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 56. (205) Id. at p. 186. 1125 (206) See ref. 182, p. 412. (207) Interview of Clardy, Aug. 25, 1978, House Select mmi tions, p. 2 (JFK Document 013490). iene Beate ee ina- (208) Hall testimony, May 28, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, 68. (209) Ibid., p. 64. (210) See ref. 2, Kantor, ‘““Who Was Jack Ruby”, p. 76; see ref. 163, “Accessories After the Fact”, p. 412. x Meg = i harboedee tet (211) Warren Report, p. 219 and accompanying footnote 140. This Commission footnote may be in error. The Commission states that three policemen failed to report this immediately and names them as Dean, Clardy and McMillon, In truth, the three are Archer, Clardy and MecMillon, and Dean’s actions vis- a-vis reporting the news are subject to interpretation. See refs. 212, 215, 216 and 217 below and accompanying text. (212) CH2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 136. This report was actually written by McMillon on the day of the shooting (Nov. 24, 1963), but was not typed until Nov. 27, 1963. McMillon testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 18 Warren Hearings, 48. (213) MeMillon Exhibit 5017, 20 Warren Hearings, 558, (214) See ref. 212, McMillon testimony, p. 52. Similarly, MeMillon failed to give a clear explanation when cross-examined at Ruby’s criminal trial. See CE2409, 25 Warren Hearings, 408474. (215) CH2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 73. (216) Id. at, p. 56. Archer told the Committee that this original report to Chief Curry (dated Nov. 27, 1963) was transcribed incorrectly and that Chief Curry ordered him to sign it anyway. On the third time, Archer agreed to initial the report, but was allowed to do so only in pencil. Interview of Archer, Aug. 24. 1878. House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 3-4. (JFK Document 013491). (217) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, p. 436. (218) Ibid. (219) Ibid. (220) Id. at pp. 437-488. In a Dee. 2, 1963 FBI interview, Dean declared that he spoke to Patrolman Vaughn, but does not mention Lieutenant Pierce or Cap- tain Talbert, Dean Exhibit 5008, 19 Warren Hearings, 432-487. (221) In particular, see ref. 2, Kantor, “Who Was Jack Ruby’, pp. 73-75. (222) See ref. 175, Dean interview, p. 9. (223) Id. at p. 87. (224) Id. at, pp. 9-10. (225) See ref. 199, Gertz, “Moment of Madness”, pp. 482 ff. (226) See ref. 173, outside contact report, Burt Griffin, p. 2; and ref. 2, Kantor, “Who Was Jack Ruby”, pp. 2-3 and 152-155. (227) See ref. 175, Dean interview, p. 1. (228) Ibid. (229) See interviews of V. C. Campbell, P. L. Bentley, ard Jesse Curry, Nov. 1, 1978 and Nov. 2, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Docu- ments, 018109, 013112, and 013108). (230) Outside contact report, Dean, Dec. 6, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, JKF Document 014535. _ (231) Griffin was also intrigued by a news article in a Dallas paper which included details from an interview which Dean gave sometime shortly after 12:15 p.m. on Sunday, Nov. 24, 1963, to David Hughes of the Dallas Times Herald, in which Dean stated that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp. CE2002, 34 ‘Warren Hearings, 113. Yet Dean may not have relayed this information to his ‘superiors. Why, asks Griffin, did Dean find more urgency in disclosing this infor- mation to the press? See Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to ‘Rankin, Mar. 30, 1964, p 4. (JFK Document 000882) . (232) Sorrels also encountered initial difficulties in gaining Ruby’s favor; he brought up the name of a Jewish businessman to overcome this problem. See ecret Service Report, Feb. 3, 1964, interview of Ruby by Sorrels, Nov. 24, 1968, xhibit 1.21 Warren Hearings, 536, 537. (233) See ref. 190, p. 81. (234) See ref. 178, outside contact report with Griffin, p. 4. (235) See ref. 38, Revill testimony, p. 147. See ref. 175, pp. 81, 83. _ (236) Why didn’t Ruby identify this natro!man as Roy Vaughn? He identified Pierce, and may have known Vaughn, as Vaughn had admitted knowing Ruby. See efs. 106-109 and accompanying text. While it seems implausible that Ruby would 1126 not know an officer’s name if the officer knew him, Ruby stated once that he didn’t know Vaughn “by name.” CD1252, notes by FBI agents Hall and Clements, Dec. 21, 1968, p. 5 (JFK Document 004076). (237) The Warren Commission determined the distance between the Main Street ramp entrance and the Western Union building to be 350 feet. Warren Report, p. 219. Even from the Western Union building itself, it may have not been difficult to see the activities at the ramp entrance. (238) Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to Rankin, Mar. 30, 1964, p. 5 (JFK Document 000882). (239) See ref. 175, Dean interview, p. 13. (240) Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to Rankin, March 30, 1964, p. 5 (JFK Document 000882). See also ref. 241 below. (241) See ref. 175, Dean testimony. In fact, Dean’s answer here was not totally responsive. When asked why he went to the third floor, Dean testified that he was going to see if Ruby was in Captain Fritz’ office or in the jail. Then Griffin asked Dean why he wished to see Ruby. His response concerned media interviews. Simi- larly, Dean has not offered a plausible explanation for his visit to Parkland Hospital following the fifth floor visit. Dean testimony, 433-434. (242) Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to Rankin, Mar. 30, 1964, p. 6 (JFK Document 000882). (243) See ref. 207, p. 2. (244) See refs. 100 and 101 above and accompanying text. (245) See refs. 102-104 above and accompanying text. (246) Dec. 17, 1963 FBI interview of T. Fleming, CE 1632, 23 Warren Hearings, 106. Fleming also posited the theory that a rookie policeman may have allowed Ruby in, believing him to be a plainclothes detective. (247) Assistant Chief Batchelor stated that this was the “prevailing rumor.” Batchelor testimony, Mar. 23, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 21. (248) CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 99. Alfred Davidson, Jr., told the FBI that . Ruby had a press pass on his car. CE1735, 23 Warren Hearings, 343. Sam Pate, a Dallas radio station employee, told staff investigators that reporters were dis- carding their press passes throughout the weekend, and anybody could have picked one up off the floor. Interview of Pate, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Documents 003053, 003337, 014913, and 007489). (249) Dec. 1, 1963 DPD report from Lieutenant T. B. Leonard to Chief Curry (JFK Document 007037). (250) Interview of Cody, July 11, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassina- tions (JFK Document 010168) ; Eberhardt testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings, 188. (251) Holly Exhibit 5111, 20 Warren Hearings, 171. NBC cameraman Gene Barnes told the FBI (on Dec. 2, 1963) that he had heard rumors that Ruby was let into the basement by a man in a reservist’s uniform. Ruby FBI files serial 458, Dec. 12, 1963 FBI interview of Barnes, p. 3. (252) Holly Exhibit 5109, 20 Warren Hearings, 164-165. (253) Holly Exhibit 5110, 20 Warren Hearings, 168; Holly testimony, March > 26, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 262. ; (254) Ibid.; see ref. 190, p. 79. ; (255) See ref. 253, Holly Exhibit 5110, p. 168, and Holly testimony, 262. (256) See refs. 166-171 above and accompanying text. ’ (257) Solomon testimony, Mar. 26, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 89. ; (258) See ref. 166, Newman testimony, pp. 326-327 and 332-333. > (259) See ref. 190, Revill testimony, p. 80. i (260) Holly further said on Dec. 1, 1963 that he was not familiar with Ruby (Holly Exhibit 5109, 20 Warren Hearings, 164), but on Dec. 7, 1963 he admitted knowing Ruby for about 2 years, once having been involved in a plan to paint the front of the Carousel. (Holly Exhibit 5110, 20 Warren Hearings, 169), and he told the Warren Commission that he knew Ruby and did business with him. (Holly testimony, Mar. 26, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 262). Lieutenant Revill told the Commission that “both Solomon and Arnett were of the orinion that Holly might be fabricating this thing.’ See ref. 190, Revill testimony, p. 79. (261) Curry testimony, Apr. 22, 1964, 4 Warren Hearings, 190; Stevenson tes- timony, Mar. 31, 1964. 12 Warren Hearings, 105. (262) Dec. 21, 1963 FBI interview of Jack Ruby, vol. 20, pp. 56-57. (263) Warren Report, p. 222 and accompanying footnote 162. 1127 (264) Harrison testimony, Mar. 25, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 257. (265) Lowery testimony, 12 Warren Hearings, 5085, 20 Warren Hearings, 535-545 ; Cutchs 271; Lowery Exhibits 5081- haw testimony, Mar. 26, 1964, 12 War- ren Hearings, 212-218. (266) Dee. 18, 1965 FBI teletype, Ruby FBI files serial 639, serial 792, copy of a Philadelphia Inquirer article. (867) Kuby I'B1 tiles serial 667, Dec. 9, 1963 FBI interview of Goulden. (268) Turner testimony, Mar, 25, 1964, 18 Warren Hearings, 184; see ref. 265, Cutchshaw testimory, 220; CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 174, 176-177. (269) CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 64, 185; Warren Report, p. 222 and accom- panying footnote 158. But see ref. 302 below and accompanying text. (270) Ruby FBI files serial 685, Dec. 12, 1963 FBI interview of Renfro. (271) An even more secluded route exists. If Ruby had turned to his right after leaving Western Union, walked away from the Main Street ramp, and turned right at the corner onto Central Expressway, a second alley, perpendicular to the first, would lead right to the door of the municip al building. See ref. 38, Revill testimony, p. 135. (272) See ref. 173; and refs. 281-286 below. (273) Griffin explained that this omission may have been partially the result of the problems encountered by him and Leon Hubert, Jr., in their Ruby investiga- tion. See ref. 173, p. 2. (274) See ref. 38, Revill testimony, pp. 1384 and 146-147. The DPD did not con- sider any alternative routes. Id. at p. 156. (275) The two passenger elevators in this area were not in Service, and the doors were shut and locked. The third elevator in the area, a service elevator, was ordered to the first floor well before the shooting occurred and was subse- quently immobile. Warren Report, p. 212 and accompa nying footnote 111. (276) Ibid., p. 222 and accompanying footnote 161. (277) See ref. 164 above and accompanying text. (278) In June 1978, Sergeant Flusche and a staff investigator examined the alley and fire escape area and concluded that the timing and distance figures would be within several seconds and a few feet of the route which the Warren Commission concluded Ruby took. Interview of Flusche, June 7, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Documen t 009689). But see ref. 302 below. (279) CH2071, June 29, 1964 FBI report of Ivan Lee, 24 Warren Hearings, 503. (280) Warren Report, p. 222 and accompanying footnote 161. (281) Servance testimony, Apr. 1, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings , 180. (282) McKinzie testimony, Apr. 1, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings, 150; Pierce tes- timony, Apr. 1, 1964, 18 Warren Hearings, 159-160. (283) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, p. 423. (284) Ibid. (285) Talbert testimony, Mar. 24, 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 114-115. (286) See ref. 282, Pierce testimony, 160. Another worker, Harold Fuqua, admitted that he went out this door on Sunday morning with Alfreadia Riggs (Fuqua testimony, Apr. 1, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings , 1 43), and that Riggs locked it from the outside (id. at pp. 144-145, and Riggs testimony , Apr. 1, 1964, 13 Warren Hearings, 171). Riggs used a key taken from inside one of the service elevators, where a key to the alleyway door was always kept hanging (id. at Riggs, 144, 170). Apparently Riggs then took the key and kept it until after the shooting (id. at p. 173-174). There is no evidence that the key on the elevator was the only key which onened the alley door. Riggs stated that he normally had his own key to this door (id. at p. 174). (287) Interview of Westbrook. June 8, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations, p. 3 (JFK Document 009735). (288) See ref. 281, Servance testimony, pp. 177-180 :McKinzie testimony. 150. (289) Brock testimony, Mar. 26. 1964, 12 Warren Hearings, 175; Brock Bxhibit 5114, 19 Warren Hearings. 178-179. Dean telephoned the committee in Septem- ber 1978 to deny that he pulled any persons off their security basement assignments. Dean outside contact report. Sent. 26. 1978, House Select Commit- tee on Assassinations (JFK Document 012093). This has been contradicted by others. See ref. 291 below. (290) See ref. 289, Brock testimony, pp. 175-176; and Brock Exhibit 5114, pp. 178-179. 1128 (291) See, e.g., CE2002, Farris statement, 24 Warren Hearings, 94; CE2002, Fox statement, 24 Warren Hearings, 95; CE2002, Raz statement, 24 Warren Hearings, 157; and CE2002, Putnam statement, 24 Warren Hearings, 156. (292) Nov. 26, 1963, DPD report of Worley, CE2002, 24 Warren Hearings, 188. (293) See ref. 247, Batchelor testimony, p. 16. (294) See ref. 175, Dean testimony, p. 428. (295) JFK Document 000656. (296) See ref. 166, Newman testimony, 321. (297) See ref. 289, Brock testimony, pp. 175-176. (298) Brock testimony, July 18, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 540. (299) Warren report, p. 816. (300) See “Report of the Polygraphy Panel on the subject of the Analysis of Jack Ruby’s Polygraph Examinations,’ VIII Appendix to the HSCA-JFK Hearings. (301) Warren report, p. 222. (302) The timing sequence referred to is the 4-minute lapse between the Western Union time-stamp of Ruby's money order and the shooting of Oswald, ibid., pp. 219, 221. In his committee public hearing appearance, Revill raised the possibility of a longer time span in commenting on the DPD special unit investi- gation of this lapse: “T personally conducted this investigation, Lieutenant McCaghren and I. We are basing the times on the statement of the Western Union employee who says that Ruby sent this wire at 11:16, and this is verified by a date-time stamp. In talking to this individual, McCaghren and I questioned him as to whether or not he actually date-time stamped it automatically or immediately. He said, yes, he did because that was procedure. But that doubt was always in my mind. It is possible that there was some time lapse in there that maybe he didn’t do this at the time because this was part of the procedure, yes, he said he did it. So who — knows?” See ref. 38, Revill, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 587. If © more time had elapsed, more routes would be logistically possible. (303) This is a Warren Commission label. See Warren Report, p. 208. (304) Fritz testimony, July 14, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, 149. ; (305) Interview of Dhority, May 25, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassi- nations, p. 2 (JFK Document 009418). (306) See ref. 304, pp. 150-151. (307) See ref. 261, Curry testimony, p. 201. (308) Warren report, p. 227. (309) Ibid. (310) See ref. 304, p. 152; see ref. 188, Fritz testimony, Apr. 22, 1964, pp. 234—- 235. Detective Archer described it as “brilliant illumination.” Archer Exhibit 5093, 19 Warren hearings, 22-28. (311) See ref. 264, Harrison testimony, p. 251. (312) FBI agents determined that the walk down the ramp would take 22 seconds. CE2026, Dec. 5, 1963 FBI report, 24 Warren Hearings, 439. (313) See ref. 190, Revill testimony, p. 81. (314) See ref. 261, Curry testimony, p. 190. The Warren Commission reached the same conclusion. Warren report, pp. 219 and 224. (315) Ruby testimony, June 7, 1964, 5 Warren Hearings, 198-199. (316) See ref. 302 above. (317) Interview of Curry, May 6, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassina- tions, p. 5 (JFK Document No. 0138487). Curry has stated that Captain Fritz was in charge of the transfer plans. Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 33, Noy. 25, 1963 interview of Curry. “es (318) Although no evidence has been found to support it, the committee has considered the possibility that Ruby’s appearance may have triggered the trans- fer of Oswald, rather than the converse. (319) FBI interview of Paul Roland Jones, June 29, 1964, p. 3 (JFK Document 004522). (320) Deposition of George Butler, July 13, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 13-14 (JFK Document 008651). (321) See V. Jack Ruby Associates, Paul Roland Jones, in this staff report profile for his background. (322) FBI interview of Paul Roland Jones, June 29, 1964, p. 3 (JFK Docu- ment 004522). (323) Ibid. 1129 (324) Butler’s notes Supplied by the Chicago Cri Document 013365) ; FBI memorand issi um, Dee, 17‘ 1946, FBI file Ne p. 6, Jones FBI file review (JEK Docu ae eee ment 013369). (325) JFK Document 013365, p. 2. (326) Ibid. (327) FBI report, FBI file No. 15-16161-313 Document 013369). (Jones file revi . % (328) Transcriptions of tapes ule Bx use Pk supplied by Chicago Crime Commi (JFK) Document 013367 3a ssion , p. 12 (329) Ibid. (330) Ibid. (331) Id. at p. 18. (332) FBI letter to Director, Noy. 19, 1946, “James Weinberg, et al.”’, No. 15-16161-314 ; Butler’s notes suppli FBI file ed by Chicago Crime Commission, pp. (JFK Document 013365). 6-7 (333) Ibid.; see also id. at peag * (334) Id. at p. 7. (335) Id. at p. 7. (336) Id. atp. 8. (337) Id. at p. 9; transcripts were not availab le for the meeting. (338) Ibid.; see also FBI letter to Directo r, Nov. 19, 1946, “James Weinberg, et al.”, p. 2, FBI file No. 15-16161-314. (339) Transcriptions of tapes supplied by Chicago Crime Commission, p. 44 (JFK Document 013367). (340) FBI letter to Director, Noy. 19, 1946, “James Weinberg, et al.”, p. 2, FBI file No. 15-16161-314; see also FBI telemeter, Dec. 15, 1946, FBI file No. 15-16161-310 (Manning lives one block from Anthony Accardo [alias Batters], and it is reported that Accardo supplied the money for Manno’s residence) ; Jack Knapp was later identified as Romeo Jack Nitti. See ref. 369 below. (341) Butler’s notes supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 9 (JFK Document 013365). (342) Transcriptions of tapes supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 26 (JFK Document 013367). (343) Id. at p. 87. (344) Id. at pp. 29-81. (345) FBI letter to Director, Nov. 19, 1946, “James Weinberg, et al.,” file No. 15-16161-314, p. 3; Butler’s notes Supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 11 (JFK Document 013365). (346) FBI letter to Director, Nov. 19, 1946, “James Weinberg, et al.”, file No. 15-16161-314, p. 3; Butler’s notes supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 12 (JFK Document 013365). (347) Ibid.; see also FBI report from Albany, N.Y., Jan. 9, 1947, by Vincent R. Kinney (toll records). (348) FBI report from Albany, Jan. 9, 1947, by Vincent R. Kinney ; FBI tele- type to Dallas, Jan. 8, 1947, FBI file No. 15—1 6161-328 , p. 2. (349) Butler’s notes Supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 12 (JFK Document 013365). (350) Tbid. (351) Id. at p. 13. (352) Ibid. (353) Id. at p. 14. (354) Ibid. (355) Ibid. (356) Id. at p. 17. (357) Ibid. (358) Thbid. (359) Ibid. (360) Thid.; see Ovid Demaris, “Captive City” (Lyle Stuart, Inc., 1969), p. 354 (Vogel is described as “a power in Cicero in days of Al Capone; one of the gangsters who engineered the Syndicate take-over of Cicero in 1924; con- sidered slot-machine ezar of Cook County for the past 40 days.”) (361) Butler’s notes supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 19 (JFK Document 013365). (362) Id. at p. 23. (363) Id. at p. 28. “4-105 0 - 79 - 72 1130 (864) Id. at p. 24. (365) Ibid. (366) Ibid. (3867) Id. at p. 27. (368) Ibid. (369) Id. at p. 28; see also FBI teletype, Dec. 19, 1946, FBI file No. 15-16161- 321. (370) Ibid. (371) Ibid. (372) FBI teletype, Dec. 19, 1946, FBI file No. 15—-16161-321. (373) FBI interview of Paul Roland Jones, June 29, 1964, p. 6, in CE1184, 22 Warren Hearings, 297 (JFK Document 004522). (374) FBI report, July 9, 1964, Ruby file serial 1829, p. 16. (375) Ibid. (376) Ibid. (377) Id. at p.17. (378) FBI interview of George Butler, Dec. 10, 1963, Ruby FBI file serial 810, p. 417 (JFK Document 013371). (379) FBI interview of Carl F. Hansson, Aug. 10, 1964 (JFK Document 004544). (380) FBI interview of Steve Guthrie, Dec. 7, 1963, Ruby FBI file serial 810, p. 21 (JFK Document 013364). (381) FBI report of investigation conducted in Chicago, Nov. 24, 1963 [Com- mission No. 4, p. 258] (JFK Document 004539). (382) Ibid. (383) FBI interview of Newman, Dec. 2, 1968, Ruby FBI file serial 700, pp. 460, 461. (384) Id. at p. 462. (385) FBI interview of Paul Roland Jones. June 29, 1964, p. 5, CE1184, 22 Warren Hearings, 297 (JFK Document 004522) ; see also FBI report, July 9, 1964, Ruby FBI file serial 1829, pp. 16-17. (“The names of local men Bob Fletcher, Tom Cooley and Sherman Little were mentioned” as possibilities for the local person who would operate the club.) ; transcription of Nov. 7, 1946 meeting supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 26 (JFK Document 013367) (Knapp says they have a half dozen prospects in mind for the local man.) : Chicago Crime Commission memorandum (JFK Document 018568), p . 16 (“at the time of the Jones-Guthrie talks that Chilton was to be ‘the man’ froin the joint. Chilton currently is said to be running the table operations on the sneak for the Binion interests.” Bennie Binion was a Dallas organized crime figure. ) (386) Warren Report, p. 801. (387) Interview of Jack Ruby, Oct. 29, 1947, Memorandum Report, FBI, Chicago, CE1708, 28 Warren Hearings, 203. (388) Ibid. (389) Secret Service interview of Jack Ruby, Dec. 6, 1963 (JFK Document 004232). (390) See ref. 26, Grant testimony, p. 449, see also interview of Eva Grant, Jan. 12, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 2 (JFIK Document 005889) (Eva Grant stated that in 1947 she was keeping company with Dr. Wel- don Duncan who introduced her to Jones.). (391) See ref. 26, Grant testimony, p. 450. (392) Ibid. (393) Testimony of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5, 1964, 15 Warren Hearings, ae (394) FBI interview of Paul Roland Sones June 29, 1964, p. 6, in CH1184, 22 Warren Hearings, 297 (JFK Document 004522). (395) Id. at p. 7. (396) Ibid. (397) Ibid. (398) Ibid. (399) Ibid. (400) Id. at p. 8. (401) FBI interview of Paul Roland Jones, Dec. 17, 1963, Ruby FBI file serial 890, pp. 49-51 (JFK Document 013370). (402) Id. at p. 49. (403) FBI interview of Ruby, Nov. 25, 1968, C. R. Hall, Exhibit 1, p. 2, 20 Warren Hearings, 37. (404) Ibid. 1131 (405) Warren Report, p. 791. ‘ (406) Ibid. ; Earl and Sam Ruby subsequently purchased usiness. J ack’s interest in the ane) FBI interview of Ruby, C. Ray Hall Exhibit 3, p. 14, 20 ings, 14. Warren Hear- (408) Warren Report, p. 793. (409) Ibid. (410) FBI report, Aug. 19, 1964, Jack Ruby FBI file, Serial 1995 (JFK Document 013372). . 8-10 (411) Chicago Crime Commission Memorandum, p. 1 (JFK Document ES i (412) Ibid. 013368). (413) Id. at p. 12. ; (414) Chicago Crime Commission Memorandum (JFK Document 013368 (415) Ibid. ). (416) Butler’s notes (supplied by Butler ) (JFK Document 013366). (417) Ibid., pp. 29-30; Butler also obtain ed a list of long-distance calls made from the Singapore Club from July to Octoher 1947 (np. 7-55). Nothing of known relevance was discovered from a review of these phone calls. (418) Outside contact report, Eva Grait, June 21, ivt8, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations, p. 1 (JFK Docum ent 009598). (419) Ibid. (420) Ibid. (421) Id. at p. 2. (422) Id. at p. 8. (423) See ref. 390, interview of Eva Grant, p. 2. (424) Interview of E%a Grant, June 13, 1978, House Select Committee on Assas- sinations, p. 9 (JFK Document 010144). (425) Ibid.; according to the Warren Report, Eva Grant visited Dallas during World War II and arranged, near the end of 1945, to lease a building under con- struction in Dallas to operate as a nightclub. Warren Report, p. 792. (426) Id. at p. 6. (427) Ibid. (428) Id. at p. 1. (429) Id. at pp. 2,5 and 6. (430) Id. at p. 2. (431) Id. at p. 3. (432) Interview of George Butler, Mar. 18, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 3-4 (JFK Document 006902). (433) Id. at p. 4. (434) See ref. 320, Butler deposition, p. 16. (485) Deposition of George Butler, May 11, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 16 (JFK Document 008651). (436) See ref. 320, Butler deposition, pp. 11-12. (437) Id. at p. 15. (438) Id. at p. 17. (439) Ibid.; Ruby was in San Francisco from 1933 until the late 1930’s or early 1940’s. He returned to Chicago in the early 1940’s and moved to Dallas in 1947. Warren Report, pp. 786, 792. (440) Id. at p. 18. (447) Id. at p. 22. (442) Id. at p. 21. (443) Id. at p. 25. ; aL (444) Transcriptions of tapes supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 12 (JFK Document 013367). ; Rae (445) Id. at p. 138; Butler’s notes supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, p. 9 (JFK Document 013365). oy (446) See ref. 360, Demaris, Captive City, p. 27 (Labriola and W einberg were murdered in 1954). (447) Warren Renort, p. 370. (448) Id. at p. 802. (449) Id. at p. 369. 50) Ibid. k Reis Warren Commission Memorandum, Hubert and Griffin, Mar. 19, 1964, p. 2 (JFK Document 002962) ; the INS records referred to in this memorandum are included in the Warren Commission Exhibit volumes, but no mention is made 1132 of them in the Warren Report. (See Exhibits 1442 and 1448), 22 Warren Hear- ings, 859. (452) Ibid. (453) Id. at p. 4. (454) Ibid. (455) Ibid. (456) Executive session testimony of Burt Griffin, Nov. 17, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassinations, pp. 49-51 (see “The Warren Commission,” XI Appendix to the HSCA-JFK Hearings, para. 283 for a copy of the transcript). (457) Letter to Hoover from Rankin, Apr. 3, 1964 (JFK Document 005061). (458) See refs. 506-508 and 660-662, re: interviews of McWillie, Braun, Bishov, and Marcus. (459) “The Secret Life of Jack Ruby,’ Wiliam Scott Malone, “New Times”, Jan. 23, 1978, p. 49. (460) Peter Dale Scott, “Crime and Cover-up” (Westworks Publishers, 1977), p. 42. (461) See ref. 2, Kantor, “Who Was Jack Ruby”, p. 137. (462) See ref. 460, p. 48, and ref. 459, p. 46. (463) See ref. 459, p. 50. (464) Secret Service interview of Jack Ruby, Dec. 2, 1963, pp. 2-3 (JFK Docu- ment 013353). (465) C. R. Hall Exhibit 3, 20 Warren Hearings, 47. (466) Id. at p. 15. (467) Ibid. (468) Ibid. e (469) Notes of conference between Jack Ruby and SA Hall and SA Clements, Dec. 21, 1963, Comm. No. 1252, p. 16 (JFK Document 004076). (470) See ref. 5, Ruby testimony, pp. 205, 207 and 208. (471) Id. at p. 201. (472) Ibid. (473) Id. at p. 207. (474) Ibid. (475) Id. at p. 208. (476) Ibid. (477) Id. at pp. 205 and 208; the name of the apartment building in which Ruby allegedly stayed is spelled differently in other interviews. This is probably a stenographic error, but it is possible that they are referring to different apart- ment buildings. (478) Id. at pp. 201, 208. (479) Id. at p. 208; Ruby also mentioned dates with two young ladies, 5 Warren Hearings, 205. (480) Id. at p. 201. (481) Testimony of Jack Ruby, July 18, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 548. (482) Ibid. (483) Id. at p. 560. (484) Id. at pp. 560-561. (485) See ref. 300. (486) FBI interview of Clarence Rector, Nov. 29, 1963, Ruby FBI file (JFK Document 013354. ) (487) FBI report of FBI interview of T. Otillar, Jan. 10, 1964 (JFK Document 013355). (488) Ibid. (489) Interview of Alice Nichols, May 3, 1978, House Select Committee on As- sassinations, p. 4 (JFK Document 008579). (490) JFK Exhibit F-581, V HSCA— JFK Hearings, 195. (491) Ibid. (492) Interview of Samuel Ruby, Tiee. 27, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 004438). (493) Id. at p. 2. (494) Ibid. (495) Interview of Wally Weston, July 10, 1976, p. 7 (JFK Document 001712) (Weston, an investigator, later joined the committee staff and made available his previous interview reports). (496) Interview of Robert Rav McKeown, Aug. 27, 1976, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations, p. 7 (JFK Document 013375). (497) Ibid. 1133 (498) FBI interview of Lewis MeWillie, Nov. 25, 1968, Hearings, 37 (JFK Document 005035) . CE1 tae ok ae RET (499) Id. at p. 1. (500) Id. at p. 3. (501) FBI interview of Mynier, Noy, 24, 1963, Ruby FBI file, serial 658, p. 215 (JFK Document 013350). (502) FBI interview of Mynier, Noy. 26, 1963 (JFK Document 018351). (503) Ibid. (504) FBI interview of McWillie, Nov. 25, 1963, CE1546, ings, 37 (JFK Document 005035 iF p. 3, 23 Warren Hear- (505) Ibid.; Jack Ruby apparently was not questioned about Mynier’s allegation. (506) FBI interview of Lewis MeWillie, June 8, 1964, in CE1697, 23 Warren Hearings, 170 (JFK Document 005057 ,5 (507) Id. at p. 1. (508) Ibid. (509) FBI interview of Meyer R. Panitz, Jan. 10, 1964, JFK Exhibit F-587, V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 223 (JFK Document 005050). (510) Ibid. (511) Ibid. (512) Ibid. (513) Ibid. (514) Ibid. (515) FBI memorandum, Mar. 26, 1964, Warren Commission No. 686d (JFK Document 002553). (516) Id. at p. 2. (517) Interview of Lewis J. MeWillie, May 21, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 004893). (518) Id. at p. 1. (519) Id. at pp. 1-2. (520) Id. at p. 2. (521) Deposition of McWillie, Apr. 4, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassi- nations, p. 111 (JFK Document 007237) (reprinted at V HSCA-JFK Hearings, p. 15). (522) See ref. 517, p. 2. (523) Cablegram to Director from Legat, London, No. 980, Nov. 26, 1963, FBI file No. 44-24016—255. (524) Ibid. (525) CIA release to White House, Attn. McGeorge Bundy; Dept. of State, Attn. Alexis Johnson ; and FBI, CIA NBR 85657, Nov. 28, 1963, FBI No. 44—24016— 262. (526) See ref. 517, p. 2. (527) Ibid. (528) See ref. 521, JEK Exhibit 572. (529) Id. at pp. 12-138. (530) Id. at p. 106. (531) Tony Zoppi, “Ruby in Retrospect,” 1973, pp. 1, 6 (JFK Document 013584). (532) Letter to Tony Zoppi from Matty Brescia, Aug. 18, 1976 (JFK Document 007242). (533) See ref. 521, p. 112. (534) Id. at p. 103. (535) Id. at p. 119. (936) Id. at p. 109. (537) Id. at p. 108. (538) Ibid. (539) Id. at p. 91. (540) Id. at p. 92. . ; (541) Ibid.; the person McWillie visited was later identified as Guiseppe de George. (542) Ibid. (543) Id. at p. 94. (544) Id. at p. 133. (545) Id. at pp. 100-108. (546) Id. at pp. 100, 102. 1134 (547) Id. at pp. 100, 102-108. (548) Id. at p. 99. (549) Outside contact report with Lewis J. McWillie, Aug. 16, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 1 (JFK Document 010843). (550) Testimony of Lewis J. McWillie, Sept. 27, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 30, 167 V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 167. (551) Ibid. (552) Ibid. (553) Ibid. (554) Id. at p. 168. (555) Id. at p. 195. (556) Id. at p. 198. (557) Id. at p. 221. (558) Id. at p. 222. (559) Id. at p. 224. (560) Id. at p. 221. (561) Id. at pp. 163-64. (562) Id. at p. 165. (563) Trafficante was detained from June 6, 1959, to Aug. 18, 1959, see ref. 636 below. (564) Id. at p. 165. (565) Ibid. (566) Ibid. (567) Ibid. (568) Ibid., p. 166; McWillie indicated in his deposition that he did know Traf- ficante well enough to say hello. See ref. 521 at pp. 94, 184. (569) Ibid., p. 167. (570) See ref. 48, Zoppi interview, pp. 4 and 5. (571) Interviews of Tony Zoppi, Mar. 31, 1978 and Apr. 5, 1978, HSCA-JFK Exhibit F-576, V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 169 (JFK Document 007360). (572) Id. at p. 8. (573) Id. at p. 4. (574) Ibid. (575) Id. at p. 5. (576) Ibid. (577) Ibid. (578) Ibid. (579) Ibid. (580) Ibid. . (581) contact report with Tony Zoppi, Sept. 15, 1978, House Outside Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 011954). (582) Id. at p. 1. (583) Id. at p. 2. (584) Ibid. (585) Ibid. (586) Ibid. (587) See ref. 581, p. 19. (588) Testimony of Santos Trafficante, Sept. 28, 1978, V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 358. (589) Ibid. (590) Id. at p. 354. (591) Ibid. (592) Id. at 369. (593) Id. at 370. (594) Ibid. (595) Id. at p. 371. (596) Id. at 370. (597) Confidential source available to the House Select Committee on A'ssassi- nations, pp. 4-50. (598) Id. at pp. 4-51. (599) Ibid. ' (600) Aug. 11, 1978 memorandum from Fonzi to Blakey on Ruby visit to Cuba in December 1962, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 1 (JFK Docu- ment 010709) (hereinafter Fonzi report). (601) Ibid. 1135 (602) Warren Report, vol. 26. (603) CE3056, 26 Warren Hearings, 612. (604) Ibid. (605) Ibid. (606) Ibid. (607) See ref. 600, Fonzi report, p. 2. (608) Ibid. (609) Ibid. (610) Ibid. (611) Ibid. (612) Ibid. (613) Ibid. (614) Ibid. (615) Id. at pp. 2-3. (616) Id. at p. 8. (617) Ibid. (618) Ibid. (619) Ibid. (620) Ibid. (621) Ibid. (622) Ibid. (628) Ibid. (624) Ibid. (625) Id. at p. 4. (626) Meeting with Cuban Government officials, Mar. 31, 1978, morning session, House Select Committee on Assassinations, JFK exhibits F-583, F-584, V HSCA- JFK Hearings, 196 and 197 respectively. (627) Id. at JFK exhibit F-583. (628) Id. at JFK exhibits F-58383, F-584. (629) Ibid. (630) Id. at JFK exhibit F-583. (631) Ibid. (632) See ref. 626, afternoon session, p. 11. (633) Ibid., p. 9. ' (634) See ref. 550, McWillie testimony, pp. 196-234. (685) Id. at p. 234. (636) Meeting with Cuban Government officials, Apr. 1, 1978, morning session, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 3. (637) Ibid. (638) Ibid. (639) Ibid. (640) Ibid. (641) Ibid. (642) Id. at p. 7. (643) Id. at p. 6. (644) See ref. 626, afternoon session, p. 16. (645) Interview of Verdacia, Aug. 26, 1978, House Select Committee on ASsas- sinations, p. 2 (JFK Document 012224). (646) JFK exhibit F436, V HSCA-JFK Hearings. 166. (647) See ref. 645, Verdacia interview, pp. 8-9. (648) Id. at p. 12. (649) Id. at p. 15. (650) Id. at pp. 4, 5 and 10; see also statement of Cuban Government (infor- mation regarding the detainees at Trescornia) (JFK Document 012204). (651) Id. at p. 14. (652) Id. at pp. 7-8; this generally corresponds with other information about Hudson. (653) Id. at pp. 9 and 10. (654) Report on document examination by Charles C. Scott, Sept. 22, 1978, p. 1 (JFK Document 013374) ; memorandum from Joseph P. McNally, Sept. 18, 1978 (JFK Document 011969). (655) JFK 101 (Security Office), provided by Earl Ruby, July 25, 1978. (656) See ref. 654, Scott examination, p. 2. (657) See ref. 654, McNally memorandum. (658) See ref. 654, Scott examination, p. 2, and McNally memorandum. 1136 (659) Ibid., Scott examination, p. 3. (660) FBI interview of Sherwin Jack Braun, Nov. 25, 1963, CE1733, 23 Warren Hearings, 381 (JFK Exhibit F-578, V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 190, or JFK Doeu- ment 005033) ; FBI interview of Jay Bishov, Nov. 25, 1963, CE1774, 23 Warren Hearings, 381 (JFK Exhibit F-579. V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 191, or JFK Doeu- ment 105033) ; and FBI interview of Jack Marcus, Nov. 24, 1963. CH1772, 23 War- ren Hearings, 379 (JFK Exhibit F-580, V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 192, or JFK Document 005047). of (661) FBI interview of Jack Marcus, Apr. 16, 1964, CE1766; FBI interview Jay Bishov, Apr. 16, 1964, CE1767; FBI interview of Sherwin Braun, Apr. 16, 1964, CE1768, all in 23 Warren Hearings, 375-377. (662) Ibid., Braun and interviews. (663) FBI interview of William Edward Howard, Dec. 8, 1963, CE1477, 22 Warren Hearings, 896. (664) FBI interview of Robert Larkin, Dec. 20, 1963, p. 1, CE2329, 25 Warren Hearings, 289; the committee located Larkin, but he never returned the tele- phone calls. (665) FBI report, Nov. 29, 1963, CE1519, 23 Warren Hearings, 10; JFK Exhibit F-585, p. 8, VHSCA-JFK Hearings, 202. (666) FBI report, Flynn, JFK Exhibit F-586, p. 18, V HSCA-JFK Hearings, 206 (JFK Document 003040). . (667) Letter to Blakey from Leonel J. Castillo, Commissioner of INS, May 11, 1978, JFK Exhibit F-589. V HSCA-JFK Hearings 226 (JFK Document 008416). See also CE1442 and 1443, 22 Warren Hearings, 859. (668) Ibid. (669) Tbid. (670) Memorandum from the CIA to the FBI, Dec. 12, 1963, FOIA release 385-736 (JFK Document 000193). (671) Id. at p. 1. (672) Ibid. (673) Ibid. (674) Id. at p. 3. (675) Id. at p. 4. (676) Ibid. (677) Washington Post and Times Herald, ‘““Cuba’s Air Chief Quits; His Arrest Is Ordered,” July 1, 1959, A6. (678) Ibid. (679) Outside contact report with C. Rogovin, Aug. 24, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 011079). (680) Outside contact report with Malone, Noy. 25, 1977, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations (JFK Document 004765). (681) See ref. 531, p. 19. — (682) See ref. 571, Zoppi interview, Mar. 31, 1978, p. 3. (683) See ref. 496, McKeown interview. ae 684) FBI interview of Howard, Dec. 7, 1963, CE1477, 22 Warren Hearings, 6. (685) FBI report, SA Alfred D. Neeley, p. 1, CE1688 (JFK Document 013348). (686) Ibid. (687) Ibid. (688) Notes of conference between Ruby and SA Hall and SA Clements, Dec. 12, 1963, Comm. No. 1252, p. 17 (JFK Document 004076). (689) See ref. 5, Ruby testimony, p. 202. (690) Ibid. (691) See refs. 748-765 below and accompanying text. (692) FBI report, Jack Ruby file, DL 44-1639, p. 1, CE1688 (JFK Document 013348). (693) Ibid. (694) FBI interview, file No. HO 44-939, SA Daniel W. Fults, Jr., p. 1, CE1689, 23 Warren Hearings, 158 (JFK Document 004514). (695) FBI report, Jack Ruby file. HO 44-939, CE1689; see also FBI interview of McKeown, Jan. 28, 1964, p. 1, CH1689. (696) FBI report, DL 44-939, CE1689, 28 Warren Hearings, 158. (697) See ref. 496, McKeown interview, p. 7. (698) FBI interview, Jan. 28, 1964, p. 2, Ruby file, Bureau No. HO 44-939, Rveapipes W. Fults, Jr., CE1689, 23 Warren Hearings, 158 (JFK Document 1137 (699) Ibid. (700) Id. at pp. 2 and 3. (701) Id. at p. 8. (702) Id. at p. 4. (703) Ibid. (704) FBI interview of Anthony “Boots” Ayo, Jan. 28 1964, p. 1, CE1689, 23 Warren Hearings, 161. (705) FBI report, Robert Ray McKeown, Apr. 17, 1964, :p. 1, CE3066, 26 Warren Hearings, 650. See also CE1689, 23 Warren Hearings, 158. (706) Warren Commission memorandum from Griffin to Rankin, Sept. 23, 1964, CE3069, 23 Warren Hearings, 661. (707) Ibid. (708) See ref. 496, McKeown interview. (709) Id. at p. 7. (710) Ibid. (711) Ibid. (712) Ibid. (713) Ibid.; this is the first time the slot machines are mentioned. (714) Ibid., pp. 7 and 8. (715) Id. at p. 7. (716) Id. at p. 8. (727) Id. at p. 7. (718) Id. at p. 2. (719) Ibid. (720) FBI interview of McKeown, Jan. 28, 1964, pp. 2-3, Ruby FBI file, Bureau No. HO 44-939, CE1689, 23 Warren Hearings, 158 (JFK Document 004514). (721) Id. at p. 2. (722) Immunized testimony of Robert Ray McKeown, Apr. 12, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 1. (723) Id. at pp. 1-11. (724) Id. at pp. 1-11, 1-17. (725) Id. at pp. 1-28. (726) Id. at pp. 1-12, 1-18; previously, McKeown stated he wanted $5,000 up front ; see ref. 446, McKeown interview, p. 8. (727) Id. at pp. 1-138. (728) Id. at pp. 1-87; see also FBI interview of McKeown, Jan. 28, 1964, p. 3, CE1689, 23 Warren Hearings, 158. (729) Id. at pp. 1-20. (730) See ref. 722, pp. 1-23, 1-24. (731) Id. at pp. 1-86 and 1-87; see also ref. 496, McKeown interview. p. 2. (732) Id. at pp. 1-48, 1-83, 1-84; see also ref. 496, McKeown interview, p. 2. (733) CBS News Inquiry, “The American Assassins,” pt. I, 1975, p. 19 (JFK Document 004440). (734) Ibid. (785) Id. at pp. 18-19. (736) Interview of Robert Ray McKeown, British Broadcasting Corporation (JFK Document 007270). (737) Ibid., pp. 2, 3, 4and 12. (738) FBI interview of McWillie, June 8, 1964, JFK Exhibit F-574, V HSCA- JFK Hearings, p. 8, 155 (JFK Document 005057). (739) Lbid. (740) Id. at p. 4; see ref. 550, McWillie testimony, p. 506. (741) See ref. 470, Ruby testimony, p. 201. (742) See ref. 550, MceWillie testimony. p. 234-235. (743) Outside contact report with Anthony J. Ayo, Apr. 20, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 008227). (744) Ibid. (745) Notes from conference between Ruby and SA Hall and SA Clements, Dec. 21, 1963, Comm. No. 1252, p. 17 (JFK Document 004076). (746) Interview of Wally Weston, July 10, 1976, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 5 (JFK Document 001712). (747) Warren Report, Appendix XVI, pp. 799-800. (748) FBI report, DL 44-1639, Alfred D. Neeley, p. 1, CE1688, 23 Warren Hearings, 157 (JFK Document 013348). (749) Ibid. 1138 (750) Warren Commission memorandum, Hubert and Griffin, Mar. 19, 1964, pp. 1-2 (JFK Document 002962). (751) See ref. 2, Kantor, ‘‘Who was Jack Ruby ?’, p. 15. (752) Ibid. (758) Id. at p. 16. (754) Ibid. (755) Ibid. (756) FBI airtel and LHM, to Director from Detroit, June 28, 1963, FBI file No. 105-120907-11, Davis FBI file review (JFK Documents 009987 and 013346). Documents 009987 and 013346). (757) Ibid. (758) LHM, July 19, 1968, from Houston to Director and LA Division, FBI file No. 105-120907-12, Davis FBI file review (JFK Documents 009987 and 013346). (759) Memo to LA from Director, June 25, 1963, FBI file No. 105-120907-9, pp. 1-2 Davis FBI file review (JFK Documents 009987 and 013346). (760) Airtel to SAC LA from Director, May 22, 1963. FBI file No. 105-120907-1, Davis FBI file review (JFK Documents 009987 and 013346). (761) FBI file review of Tom Davis (JFK Document 013346). (762) FBI memorandum, Dec. 20, 1963, FBI file No. 1-105—-120907-— (JFK Doc- ument 013346). This memorandum also refers to the arrest by the Moroccan Surété of Howard Loeb Schulman after he stated he was wanted by U.S. author- ities in connection with *he assassination.) (763) Telegram, Dec. 10, 1963 (State Department/passport file review on T. Davis), p. 2 (JFK Document 013349). (764) Ibid. (765) Ibid. (766) See ref. 5, Ruby testimony, p. 205. (767) Ibid. (768) Ibid. (769) Ibid. (770) Outside contact report with McCord, Sept. 28, 1978, House Select Com- mittee on Assassinations (JFK Document 0121738). Cigh) wi. ae Deed (772) Id. at pp. 1 and 2. (773) Td.-at p. 1. (774) See ref. 2, Kantor, “Who Was Jack Ruby?”, p. 11. (775) Ibid., p. 12; see also ref. 5, Ruby testimony, p. 206, statement by Chief Justice Warren. (776) C. R. Hall exhibit 3; interview of Jack Ruby, Dec. 21, 1963, p. 15, 20 Warren Hearings, 15. (777) See ref. 5, Ruby testimony, p. 208. (778) See ref. 521, McWillie deposition, p. 80. (779) IRS report, Jan. 9, 1964, CE2978, 26 Warren Hearings, 460. (780) Id. at p. 5. (781). Tbid. (782) Testimony of Earl Ruby, June 8, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 384-385. (783) See ref. 32, Earl Ruby deposition, p. 82. (784) Ibid. (785) Id. at p. 83. (786) Id. at p. 84. (787) Id. at p. 92. (788) Letter from Earl Ruby to House Select Committee on Assassinations, Aug. 17, 1978, JFK Exhibit F-554, IV HSCA-JFK Hearings, 516 (JFK Document 010907). (789) Testimony of Earl Ruby, Sept. 26, 1978. House Select Committee on Assassinations, IV HSCA-JFK Hearings, p. 515. (790) Testimony of Wade, June 8, 1964, 5 Warren Hearings, 221. (701) CK 2267, 25 Warren Hearings, 191. (1824) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 621. Meyers’ position before working with Ero was with HRealthways, a Los Angeles company. See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 4. (1825) Dec. 5, 1963 FBI interview of Joyce McDonald, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p». 527, CE1606, 23 Warren Hearings. 85. (1826) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, pp. 34, 35. (1827) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, pp. 620-639. (7828) Wouse Select Committee on Assassinations, TFK Document 009966. (1629) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 622. (550) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 24. (7831) Dee. 5, 1903 FBI interview of Joyce MeDonald, Ruby FBI files serial S10, p. 527, CE1606, 23 Warren Hearings, S85. (1832) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 623. (1853) Sec ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 54. (1834) ‘This is based on records obtained from the Dallas Cabana, where Meyers always stayed when in Dallas (JFK Document 013477). (1835) Dee. 5, 1963 FBI interview of Joyee McDonald, Ruby FBI files seria? 810, p. 527 (/330) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, 625; Dee. 5, 1963 FBI interview of Joyce McDonald, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 527. (1537) See ref. 1519, Meyers deposition, p. 22. (1838) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 625. (78329) Dee. 5, 1963 FRI interview of MeDonald, Ruby FBI files serial 816, pn. 527. Meyers has explained tliat his intentions were “strictly ulterior’ and he was “ust 'try.nug to make points” (with McDonald). See ref. 1819, Meyers depo- sition, p. 23. (1240) Dee, 4, 1963 FRI interview of Aase, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 532; CE2266, 25 Warren Hearings, 190. The committee was unable to locate West. (1841) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, pp. 97-98. Meyers stated that West's identity was unknown to his family and business associates. Dec. 12, 1963 FBI interview of Meyers, Ruby FBT files serial 810, p. 582. (184°) Dec, 4, 1963 FBI interview of J. Wesi, Ruby FBI files sérial 810, p. 532. (1843) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 72. (1844) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 626; ibid., Meyers deposition, pp. 69. (1845) Tbid., Meyers deposition, pp. 76-79. Joyce McDonald recalls seeing Meyers at the Carousel that night, with a companion introduced as Ann, althongh this individual would seem to be Jean West. Dec. 5, 1963 FBI interview of MeDonald, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p, 527. (17846) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, pp. 626-627. (1847) Id. at p. 627. (1848) See CE1561, 23 Warren Hearings. 49. (1849) Meyers could not pinpoint the exact time. (1850) Dec. 6, 1968 FBI interview of Edward Meyers, Ruby FBT files serial 810, pp. 587 and 538. (1851) Dee, 12, 1963 FBI interview of Meyers (JFK Document 004531 jf 44-105 0 - 79 - 74 1162 (1852) Meyers told the FBI that the call was at 10:30 p.m., Dee. 12, 1963 FBI report, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 533 (J FK Document 004531). He told the Warren Commission that it was at 9:00 or 10:00 (see ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 631). He told the committee that it was somewhere around 12:00 (see ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 87). (1853) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 632. (1854) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 89. — (1855) See “V. G. Jack Ruby Weekend Chronology.” (1856) Dec. 12, 1963 FBI report, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 534 (JFK Docu- ment 004531). (1857) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, pp. 107-108. (1858) Dec. 12, 1963 FBI report, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 583 (JFK Docu- ment 004531). (1859) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 98. (1860) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 637. (1861) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, pp. 65-66; ibid., Meyers testimony, p. 637. (1862) Ibid:, Meyers deposition, pp. 124-125. (1863) Id. atxp. 85. (1864) See ref..1853 above and accompanying text. (1865) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, pp. 631-682. (1866) CE2267, 2266 and 2268, 25 Warren Hearings, 190-193. (1867) CE2350, 25 Warren Hearings, 327-336. (1868) See ref. 1345, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 667. (1869) 15 Warren Hearings, pp. 339-340, July 25, 1964. (1870) Testimony of Nichols, Apr. 14, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 120. (1871) Testimony of Crafard, Apr. 9, 1964, 14 Warren Hearings, 62. (1872) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 21. (1873) See ref. 86, Senator testimony, pp. 296-297. (1874) Dec. 12, 1963 FBI interview of Meyers, Ruby FBI files serial 810, p. 536. (1875) See ref. 1818, Meyers testimony, p. 624. (1876) See ref. 1819, Meyers deposition, p. 19. (1877) Id. at pp. 36-37. (1878) Id. at pp. 50-51. (1879) Deposition of Leonard Patrick, July 21, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 010506). (1880) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-8189—380, p. 3. (1881) Ibid. (1882) Ibid. (1883) Ibid. (1884) Id. at p. 11. (1885) Id. at p. 4. (1886) Ibid. (1887) “Cop Trial Witness Refuses Immunity,” Chicago Tribune, June 11, 1975, p. 16, Patrick file review at Illinois Legislative Investigative Commission (JFK Document 008735) . (1888) Outside contact report with Leonard Patrick, House Select Committee on Assassinations, Apr. 14, 1978 (JFK Document 007201). (1889) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 4. (1890) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, FBI file No. 92-3189-30, p. 37. (1891) Ibid. (1892) Ibid. (1893) Id. at p. 99. (1894) Id. at p. 95. (1895) Ibid. (1896) Id. at p. 45. (1897) Thid. (1898) Id. at p. 71. (1899) Ibid. (1900) Td. at p. 80. (1901) Ibid. (1902) Id. at p. 76. (1903) Id. at p. 78. (1904) Id. at p. 88. (1905) FBI report, Chicago, Jan. 17, 19638, file No. 92-3189-48, p. 2. (1906) FBI report, July 8, 1971. file No. 92-3189-83, p. 58. 1163 (1907) FBI report, Chicago, Mar. 18, 1964, file No. 92-3189-54 ; see also letter from Miami Police Department to Charles Siragusa, Apr. 30, 1965. (In 1963 Dave Yaras was listed as secretary-treasurer of A-1 Uniform Rental Co.) Patrick file review at Illinois Legislative Investigative Commission (JFK Document 008735). (1908) FBI report, Chicago, June 22, 1964, file No. 92-3189-55, p. 2. (1909) Ibid., p. 4. (1910) See FBI interview of Leonard Patrick, Nov. 28, 1963, CH1202 (JFK Document 004549). ifuis api, (1912) Warren Report, p. 790. (1913) FBI interview of Leonard Patrick, Noy. 28, 1963, CEH1202 (JFK Docu- ment 004549). (1914) Warren Report, p. 790. (1915) Ibid. (1916) Chicago Sun Times clip, Apr. 4, 1958 (mentioned in a memorandum supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission, Nov. 24, 1961) (JFK Document 008385) ). (1917) Ibid.; a handbook is commonly kept by bookmakers for a daily record of their bets, or “action.” (1918) Chicago Tribune clip, Feb. 3, 1960 (mentioned in a memorandum sup- plied by the Chicago Crime Commission (JFK Document 008385) ). (1919) Ibid. (1920) FBN report, “Summary of Organized Crime and Racketeering in the State of Illinois.” Sept. 27, 1962, p. 2 (file review at Illinois Legislative Investi- gative Commission (JFK Document 008735) ). (1927 id: at, p. 3. (1922) Ibid. (1923) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-30; see also memo- randum supplied by the Chicago Crime Commission (JFK Document 008385). (1924) Ibid. (1925) Ibid. (1926) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-30, p. 32. (1927) Ibid. (1928) Ibid. (1929) Ibid. (1930) Ibid. (1931) Id. at p. 33. Rocco Fischetti was a cousin of Al Capone, He was a gun- man and a gambler who fled to Brazil to avoid a subpena from the Kefauver committee. (1932) Ibid. (1933) Ibid. Accardo was a Chicago organized crime leader. (1934) Id. at p. 33; see also summary of material on Lenny Patrick, Chicago Crime Commission (JFK Document 008385). (1935) Ybid. (1936) Ibid. (1937) Ibid. (1938) Ibid. (1939) Id. at p. 32. (1940) Id. at p. 35. (1941) FBI report, Chicago, July 8, 1971, file No. 92-3189-88, p. 6. (1942) FBI report, Chicago, Mar. 18, 1964, file No. 92-3189-54, p. 2; FBI report, Chicago, July 8, 1971, file No. 92-3189-83, p. 7. (1943) FBI report, Chicago, June 22, 1964, file No. 92-3189-55, p. 2. (1944) FBI report, Chicago, July 8, 1971, file No. 92-3189-83, p. 2. (1945) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 14. (1946) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-30, p. 55. (1947) Ibid. (1948) Id. at p. 57. (1949) Thid. (1950) Id. at p. 56. (1951) Ibid. (1952) Ibid. (1953) Id. at p. 58. (1954) Thid. (1955) Ibid. (1956) Thid. 1164 (1957) Id. at p. 59. (1958) Ibid. 92-3189-83, p. 10. (1959) FBI report, July 8, 1971, Chicago, file No. (1960) Ibid. 92-3189-48, p. 8; “juice” is (1961) FBI report, Chicago, Jan. 17, 1963, file No. slang for the loansha rk business . 92-3189—-49, p. 6. (1962) FBI report, Chicago, Mar. 19, 1963, file No. (1963) Ibid. 92-3189-50, p. 2. Joseph (1964) FBI report, Chicago, May 28, 1963, file No. for Al Capone. Aiuppa is a leading Chicago gangster and was a gunman (1965) Ibid. (1966) Id. at p. 12. (1967) Id. at p. 7. (1968) Ibid., p. 12. (1969) FBI report, Chicago, Sept. 24, 1963, file No. 92-3189-52, p. 2. (1970) FBI report, Chicago, Mar. 18, 1964, file No. 92-3189—54, p. 3. (1971) Ibid. (1972) Ibid. (1973) Ibid. (1974) FBI report, Chicago, July 8, 1971, file No. 92-3189-83, p. 48. (1975) Ibid., p. 39. (1976) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-8189-30, p. 52. (1977) Id. at p. 53. (1978) Id. at p. 54. (1979) Ibid. (1980) Ibid. (1981) Ibid. (1982) Id. at p. 47. (1983) Ibid. (1984) Ibid. crime figure. (1985) Id. at p. 46. Frabotta was a major midwest organized (1986) Ibid. (1987) Id.at p. 49. (1988) Ibid. (1989) Id. at p. 37. (1990) Ibid. (1991) Ibid. (1992) Id. at p. 38. (1993) Id. at pp. 60-61. (1994) Id. at p. 55. “Information Re- (1995) Tllinois Legislative Investigative Commission report, ceived From Narcotics File,” Feb. 9, 1966 (JFK Document 008735). (1996) Ibid. p. 44. (1997) FBL report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-30, (1998) Id. at p. 30. (1999) Ibid. (2000) Ibid. (2001) Ibid. FBI report, Chicago, Mar. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-41, p. 9. (2002) 19. (2003) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-30, pp. 16, 17 and FBI interview of Patrick, Nov. 28, 1968, CE1202 (JFK Document (2004) 004549). (2005) Id. at p. 1. (2006) Ibid. ; see also ref. 1879. Patrick deposition, pp. 12-13. (2007) Ibid. (2008) Ibid. (2009) Ibid. (2010) Ibid. (2011) Ibid. (2012) Ibid. (2013) Ibid. (2014) Ibid. (2015) Ibid. (2016) Ibid. (2017) FBI interview of Earl Ruby, Nov. 26, 1963, p. 2 (JFK Document 004557 ). 1165 (2018) Ibid. Patrick was not questioned about his brother’s wife. (2019) FBI interview of Marian Carroll and Ann Volpert, Nov. 29, 1968, p. 3 (JFK Document 004524). (2020) See ref. 26, Grant testimony, p. 443. (2021) Id. at pp. 445 and 446. (2022) Id. at pp. 459-460. (2023) Id. at p. 460. (2024) See ref. 26, Grant testimony, p. 340. (2025) Ibid. (2026) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 16. (2027) Ibid. Patrick identified his partner as Dave Yaras. (2028) Id. at p. 16. (2029) Ibid. (2030) See ref. 393, Rubenstein testimony, p. 29. (2081) Ibid. (2032) Ibid. (2033) Ibid. (2084) Ibid. (2035) FBI report, Chicago, July 8, 1971, file No. 92-3189-83, p. 48. (2036) Ibid. (2037) FBI interview of Patrick, Nov. 28, 1963, CE1202 (JFK Document 004549) . (2038) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 12. (20389) Id. at p. 15. (2040) Id. at p. 14. (2041) Ibid. (2042) FBI report, Chicago, Dec. 18, 1963, p. 5. (2043) See ref. 1888, Patrick outside contact report, p. 1. (2044) Ibid. (2045) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 5. (2046) Id. at p. 6. (2047) Id. at p. 7. (2048) Id. at p. 9. (2049) Id. at p. 10. (2050) Id. at p. 12. (2051) Id. at p. 17. (2052) Id. at p. 8. (2053) Id. at p. 9. (2054) FBI interview of Dave Yaras, Dec. 6, 1968, Ruby FBI file. (2055) Ibid. (2056) Ibid. (2057) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 9. (2058) Id. at p. 11. (2059) See ref. 846, Weiner profile. (2060) FBI report, Chicago, Oct. 7, 1962, file No. 92-3189-30, p. 100. (2061) FBI report, Chicago, July 8, 1971, file No. 92-3189-83, p. 49. (2062) Ibid. (2063) See ref. 1879, Patrick deposition, p. 15. (2064) Nov. 24, 1963 FBI interview of Ralph Paul, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 471. (2065) CD1254, random notes of Jack Ruby, p. 35 (JFK Document 004076). (2066) Nov. 27, 1963 FBI teletype, Ruby FBI files serial 47. (2067) June 24, 1964 FBI report on Beatrice Hecht, Ruby FBI files serial 1666. (2068) See ref. 898, Palmer testimony, p. 217. (2069) Ruby FBI files serial 1666. (2070) Ruby FBI files serial 47. (2071) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 157; Nov. 25, 1963 FBI report on Mrs. Bert Bowman (JFK Document 004766). (2072) Tbid., Paul testimony, p. 134. (2073) Id. at p. 150. (2074) See refs. 2079-2082 and 2085 and accompanying text. (2075) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 138. (2076) Ibid. (2077) Id. at pp. 1388-139. (2078) See ref. 1345, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 677; Nov. 24, 1968 FBI interview of Ralph Paul, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 471. 1166 (2079) FBI interview of Alice Nichols, Nov. 25, 1963, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 286. (2080) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, pp. 141-142. (2081) FBI interview of Wallash R. Rush, Jan. 7, 1964, Ruby FBI files serial 966, p. 47. (2082) Jan. 15, 1964 FBI interview of Chris T. Semos, Ruby FBI files serial 966, p. 51. (2083) Ruby may not have been the only person indebted to Paul. The current owner of the Bull-Pen told the committee that Paul made a $62,000 loan to Bert Bowman. Interview of M. Elliott, May 26, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Document 001338). (2084) FBI interview of Ralph Paul, Nov. 24, 1963, Ruby FBI files serial 634, p. 471. (2085) See ref. 1032, Armstrong interview, Oct. 30, 1978. (2086) The incorporators of the S & R Corporation were Paul, Joseph Slatin and CG. D. Merrill. The board of directors consisted of Paul, Slatin, Merrill and Earl Ruby. Ruby FBI files serial 456. (2087) Jan. 24, 1964 FBI interview of Ralph Paul, Ruby FBI files serial 1118, p. 140. (2088) Ruby FBI files serial 1113, p. 67 ; JFK Document 004476. (2089) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 158. (2090) Ruby FBI files serial 1118, p. 140, Paul interview. (2091) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 144. (2092) The Bull-Pen was incorporated under the name of the Bappo Corp. See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 134. (2093) Eva Grant described Paul as ‘‘well-to-do.” (See ref. 26, Grant testimony, p. 457), and Ruby’s FBI files indicate an opinion that Paul would be able to pay for Ruby’s legal defense, regardless of cost. FBI interview of J. Rhodes, Dec. 24, 1963, Ruby FBI files serial 921, p. 190. (2094) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 140. (2095) Id. at pp. 185-1386. (2096) Id. at p. 186. (2097) Id. at pp. 186-187. (2098) FBI interview of Semos, Jan. 15, 1964, Ruby FBI files serial 966, p. 52. (2099) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 187; Sam Ruby testimony, 14 Warren Hearings, 498. (2100) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 137. (2101) Ibid., p. 152; see ref. 1345, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 660; Ruby FBI files serial 921, p. 3. (2102) Ruby FBI files serial 1113, p. 140. (2108) ‘See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 151. (2104) Ibid., p. 152. (2105) See ref. 1845, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 669. (2106) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 152. =. — (2107) See ref. 1845, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 665. Siveke June 10, 1964, FBI report on Wanda Helmick, Ruby FBI files, serial 1644, p. 191. Ushi July 21, 1964, FBI report on Wanda Helmick, Ruby FBI files, serial 1862. (2110) Ruby FBI files, serial 1644, p. 191; testimony of Helmick, 15 Warren Hearings, pp. 898-399. (2111) Ibid., Helmick testimony, p. 400, Ruby FBI files, serial 1862; interview of Helmick, July 21, 1964. (2112) See Ruby FBI files, serial 2004 (reports on John Jackson, Sept. 1, 1964, serial 2004, p. 4; Rose Jackson, Sept. 1, 1964, serial 2004, p. 5; Joyce Angell and Geraldine Toyo, Sept. 2, 1964, serial 2004, p. 7). '(2118)| See ref. 828, Paul testimony, p. 153. '(2114) FBI interview of Paul, Nov. 25, 1963, Ruby FBI files, serial 634, p. 472. (2115) See Ruby phone project records (JFK Document 003606). (2116) 'This explanation is hard to accept because Paul knew on Friday after- noon that Ruby was going to close his clubs. See ref. 21038. (2117) Sept. 1, 1964, FBI interview of Paul, Ruby files, serial 2004, p. 2. (2118) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, p. 1538. Sept. 1, 1964, FBI report on Rose Jackson, Ruby FBI files, serial 2004, p. 5. (2119) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 158. 1167 (2120) Testimony of Powell, 15 Warren Hearings, 429. (2121) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 153. (2122) See ref. 2115. (2123) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 154. (2124) See Sept. 1, 1964, FBI reports on Geraldine Toyo (Sept. 2, 1964), Ruby FBI files, serial 2004, p. 7 and R. Jackson (Sept. 1, 1964), Ruby FBI files, serial 2005, p. 5. (2125) See ref. 1345, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 674. (2126) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 154. (2127) Nov. 25, 1968, FBI report on John Jackson (JFK Document 004767). (2128) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 155. (2129) See ref. 1345, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 675; see ref. 828, Paul testimony, p. 156. (2130) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 156. (2131) Id. at p. 163. (2182) FBI airtel to Director from Dallas, Dec. 19, 1963, Ruby FBI files, serial 805. (2133) See ref. 1345, Paul testimony, Aug. 24, 1964, p. 678. (2134) See ref. 828, Paul testimony, Apr. 15, 1964, p. 145. (2135) Secret Service report, Dec. 3, 1963, by SA Elmer W. Moore, p. 1. (2136) Lbid. (2137) See ref. 86, Senator testimony, p. 168. (2138) Secret Service report, dated Dec. 3, 1963, by SA Elmer W. Moore, p. 2. (2189) Id. at p, 1. (2140) See ref. 86, Senator testimony, p. 167. (2141) Id. at p. 168. (2142) Secret Service report, dated Dec. 3, 1963, by SA Elmer W. Moore, p. 2. (2143) Ibid. (2144) Testimony before the Warren Commission, p. 174. (2145) Id. at p. 175. (2146) Id. at p. 180. (2147) Id. at p. 181. (2148) FBI interview of George Senator, dated Dec. 20, 1963, by SA’s Ralph E. Rawlings and James F. Glonek, p. 1. (2149) FBI interview of George Senator, dated Nov. 24, 1963, by SA Kenneth C. Howe, p. 1. (2150) FBI interview of George Senator, dated Dec. 20, 1963, by SA’s Ralph E. Rawlings and James F. Golnek. (2151) Ibid., p. 2. (2152) Secret Service report, dated Dec. 3, 1963, by SA Elmer W. Moore, p. 2. (2153) 14 Warren Hearings, 207. (2154) Secret Service report, dated Dec. 3, 1963, by SA Elmer W. Moore, ps2: (2155) 14 Warren Hearings, 196-198. (2156) Ibid. (2157) Ibid. (2158) Secret Service report, dated Dec. 3, 1963, by SA Elmer W. Moore, p. 2, (2159) FBI interview of George Senator by SA’s Ralph E. Rawlings and James F. Golnek, p. 2. (2160) Ibid. (2161) 14 Warren Hearings, 211. (2162) FBI interview of George Senator by SA’s Ralph E. Rawlings and James F. Golnek, pp. 1-2. (2163) Id. at p. 2. (2164) Id. at p. 3. (2165) Deposition of J. R. Todd, July 11, 1978, House Select Committee on Assassinations, p. 8 (JFK Document 010067). (2166) Id. at p. 28; Todd could not recall the dates of his employment at the car lot. (2167) Id. at p. 29. (2168) Id. at pp. 4 and 6. (2169) FBI arrest record (JFK Document 008850). (2170) Tbid. (2171) FBI report, CD4, p. 157 (JFK Document 002949 ) . (2172) FBI report, Nov. 21, 1978, Campisi file, FBI file No. 182-475-9. 1168 (2173) See ref. 2165, Todd deposition, p. 31. (Todd’s attorney did not believe it was proper for Todd to characterize anybody as a bookmaker, so Todd did not answer questions regarding Stone’s and Meadows’ activities. It should also be noted that Todd was not very cooperative in explaining his associations and described his relationship with everyone either as “very casual” or “casual”). (2174) FBI report, Mar. 29, 1960, by SA Vincent Drain, Dallas file No. 92-218; see also Dallas Morning News, Dec. 28, 1949 (‘Todd and Matthews served as pall- bearers at Green’s funeral). (2175) See ref. 2165, Todd deposition, p. 15. (2176) Ibid. (2177) Id. at p. 16. (2178) Id. at p. 46. (2179) Id. at pp. 17-19. (Todd’s son is married to Ianni’s daughter; Joseph Civello attended the notorious Apalachin meeting. ) (2180) Ibid., p. 46. (2181) FBI interview of J. R. Todd, Dec. 17, 1963 (JFK Document 005690). (2182) Ibid. (2183) Ibid. (2184) Ibid. (2185) Ibid. (2186) Ibid. (2187) Thid. (2188) Ibid. (2189) FBI report, CD4, p. 157 (JFK Document 002949). (2190) Comm. No. 732j; JFK Document 003040. (2191) See ref. 2165, Todd deposition, p. 11. (2192) Id. at p, 12. (2193) Id. at p. 11. (2194) Id. at pp. 36-87 and 44. (2195) Id. at p. 33. (2196) Id. at p. 30 (Todd denied knowing all the individuals involved in the 1946 organized crime move to Dallas except for Paul Roland Jones. See “ V. B. Organized Crime’s Move to Dallas, 1947’’). (2197) Id. at p. 28. (2198) Id. at p. 45. (2199) Id. at p. 30. (2200) Id. at p. 36. (2201) Id. at p. 45. (2202) Ibid. (2203) Id. at pp. 26 and 40. See also profiles of Matthews (para. 1057), Dolan (para. 924ff.) and McWillie (para. 1153ff.). (2204) Wiener biographical data is contained in a June 7, 1974, FBI airtel in FBI file No. 172-1951. \(2205) See The Washington Post, Apr. 6, 1978, p. VA19. (2206) See FBI files on Irwin Weiner. (2207) CH23803, p. 20, 25 Warren Hearings, 242. (2208) Chicago police department file 17.52, vol. 2, p. 27. (2209) See, e.g., FBI file No. 68—7893-21. (2210) Jan. 31, 1963, FBI report in file No. 63—7893-37. (2211) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2212) See Chicago Crime Commission file 60-55, vol. 30. (2213) Jan. 31, 1972, FBI report in file No. 92-138011-1. (2214) Jan. 1, 1974, FBI report in file No. 87—-126535. (2215) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2216) June 7, 1974, FBI report in file No. 172-195-1. (2217) Mar. 29, 1973, FBI report in file No. 92-13011-7. (2218) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2219), Chicago police department file 17.045-8, p. 46. (2220) Chicago police department Caifano, Marshall, vol. VI, p. 241. (2221) Dec. 6, 1963, FBI report in file No. 68-7893-129. (2222) “The target of many Federal probes over the years, the Central States fund is characterized by a Federal investigation as nothing less than a lending agency for the Mob.” Time, Aug. 25, 1975, p. 55. (2228) H.g., American Pail, Inc., Auburn Rubber Corp., R&D Engineering, Inc. 1169 (2224) July 6, 19638, FBI teletype in file No. 92-13011-18xX. (2225) See FBI files No. 62-82195-673 and No. 92-138011. (2226) Ibid. (2227) Ibid. (2228) See FBI file No. 86—126535. (2229) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2280) FBI file No. 68-7895 (sec. 1). (2231) Ibid. (2232) See May 19, 1975 FBI report in file No. 183-287-2; The Washington Post, Apr. 6, 1978, p. VA19. (2283) Dec. 38U, 1963 newspaper clipping in Chicago police department file 17 61, vol. 6, p. 36. (2284) Dec. 4, 1962 FBI report in file No. 62-9-9-1136. (2285) Jan. 26,1973 FBI report in file No. 68—7893-9. (2236) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2237) Ibid. (2288) Oct. 15, 1962 FBI report in file No. 68-7893-9. (2239) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2240) Id. at p. 29. (2241) Hopps and Bray are well-known insurance and bonding “swindlers.” See FB] files for Irwin Weiner. (2242) Dec. 6, 1963 FBI report in file No. 68—7893-129. (2243) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony, (2244) Thid. The company in question is the Intercontinental Insurance and Surety Company. (2245) Of course, this is why Weiner’s services are valuable. ‘The front men usually have no police records, or at least no convictions. They can get credit, business licenses, and other things that might be denied to known hoovdiums.” Chicago Daily News, Feb. 19, 1964, p. 6. (2246) Chicago Crime Commission file 60—55, vol. 30. (2247) Jan. 31, 1972 FBI report in file No. 92-13011-1. (2248) FBI file No. 62-75147-31-136X. (2249) See Irwin Weiner rap sheet. (2250) See ref. 2227, above, and accompanying text. (2251) CE2308, p. 20, 25 Warren Hearings, 242. (2252) Warren Report, p. 797, and accompanying footnote 319. 2253) Ruby FBI files serial 658, p. 229. (2254) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2255) See ref. 2253. (2256) Ruby FBI files serial 890, cover page B. (2257) JFK Document 004922, p. 51. (2258) Id. at p. 52. (2259) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2260) Id. at p. 76. (2261) Id. at p. 9. (2262) Id. at p. 11. (2263) Id. at p. 12. (2264) Jan, 26, 1968 FBI report (JFK Document 004557). (2265) See ref 32, Earl Ruby deposition. (2266) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. (2267) See ref. 936, Shore deposition. (2268) Ibid. (2269) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony, (2270) See para. 794-863. (2271) See ref. 942, Weiner executive session testimony. p. 80. (2272) Nov. 27, 1963 WRI interview of Mike Shore, Ruby FBI files seriai 634 pp. 455-456. (2273) See ref. 32, Farl Ruby deposition. (2274) FBI interview with Paul Dorfman, Dec. 23, 1963: WSCA staff interview of Alen Dorfman, Jnly 11, 1978. (2275) JFK Document 003872. (2276) CE1279, 22 Warren Hearings, 382. Dorfman told the FBI that he had known Ruby as a “neighborhood kid” who lived on Chiecago’s West Side. 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